Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Wilbus on June 14, 2002, 10:33:45 AM
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190 A's prior to that of the A8.
Having a hard time finding the video on internet so that everybody can get it, no ISBN on the box.
The video is called "Focke-Wulf FW190" and (seems to be) a part of the "Fighter aircraft of world war two" series. It's released by Eagle Rock entertainment, Pegasus.
A number you can search on is PEG 1228 (which is the number for the video).
This is a link to a company in GB that sells their videos HERE (http://www.rangerecords.co.uk/Videoaircraft&War.htm)
I did a search on Google for "PEG 1228"and found that page, can't seem to find that particular video though on the site, you can probarly write them about it if you want the video, or ask me and I'll pick up another copy in the bookstore and send to you. Price around 10 dollars or so.
Anyway, although the narrator (as in all films) says some things wrong, it's the interviews with the pilots that makes it very interesting, they interview Günter Rall and Otto Stammberger amongst other, aswell as Douglas Barder (the story he tells is freaking fun btw :D ).
While they interview Otto Stammberger, he says that when the Spitfire Mk9 arived, it could do everything as good as the 190's they were flying at the time, and some things much better (climb and turn for instance). He then says, and I quote: We had to quickly develop something better so we brought in a Water-Methanol injection system to cool the engine down and that was an improvement of 60, 70, 80 PS and once again we were faster then the spitfire.
Can we get better first hand information then this????
Also, what fuel do the 190's in AH use?
Edit: Might add that the Water-Methanol system was introduced quite soon after the arival of the Spit 9 thus being in opreational service on versions as early as the A5.
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WTG Wilbus !
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seen some ww2 fotages when 190 activate mw50 , it smoke much much more , black heavy smoke and exhaust pipes go white from heat
just for hell cant remember what was the name
will be nice if some 1 will try this on hiz own car and compare :D
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Yes Minus, trying to find my source where it says that LW used the MW50 to fool the Allies that they were mortally struck, I have so many books and videos now that i forget where I get all info from.
Minus, be sure to send me film fotage of your car when you do it :D
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A proof of Fw190 being also faster than Spit IX ?-)
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As it is now A5 is already slightly faster at the deck the Spit 9 I THINK. With MW50 it would be quite a bit faster.
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Sweet info Wilbus. Now if only we can get it introduced.
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Wilbus,
Come on man. You and I both know that this is far from proof. Don't give those predisposed to hurl insults more ammunition.
I have yet to see any conclusive evidence of MW50 used with the Fw 190's BMW-801d.
I am looking though.
F.
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IMO that is pretty good evidence that it was used on 190 A's.
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Let me say like this, it's definite evedience that it was used operatinoally and in action by 190's as early as 1942/43.
I wouldn't quite say it's enough to add it though since we haven't found any charts nor have any numbers of how much it would increase the engine output.
I am positive that it was used and existed though.
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thats faster then the spit 9 we have in ah
Im sure funked and karnak have the specs for those other spit 9s.
The spit 9 we have is the slow one.
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What kind of cannon was the MW50?
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I am positive that the P-47D11 was used with a Hamilton "paddleblade" prop too, but HTC aint budging on that one:)
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Ammo, if you've followed the other threads you'd know what I am after here :)
I am not after HTC to add MW50, just trying to rpove that it was indeed used in 190 A's prior to the 190 A8. There aren't as much good charts and such about german planes as there are about US ones (unfortunatly).
Gman, MW50 is a power boost, Water-methanol, system that german planes used.
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Neat info. Thanks Wilbus.
I find this part of the quote to be quite revealing:
While they interview Otto Stammberger, he says that when the Spitfire Mk9 arived, it could do everything as good as the 190's they were flying at the time, and some things much better (climb and turn for instance).
As too the relative speeds of Spitfire Mk IXs:
Merlin 61 powered Spitfire F.Mk IX (what we have) had a sea level speed of 321mph. 300 or so Spitfire F.Mk IXs were built. The Spitfire F.Mk IX entered service in 1942.
Merlin 66 powered Spitfire LF.MK IX had a sea level speed of 336mph and a top speed of 407mph at 22,000ft. More than 3,000 Spitfire LF.Mk IXs were built. The Spitfire LF.Mk IX entered service in 1943.
Merlin 70 powered Spitfire HF.Mk IX had a sea level speed of 329mph and a top speed of 416mph at 27,800ft. More than 1,000 Spitfire HF.Mk IXs were built. The Spitfire HF.Mk IX entered service in 1943.
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Thanks Karnak, find it quite weird that we've got the spit 9 produced least :(
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If MW50 use is to modelled for the A-4 will the lack of performance be modelled after the MW50 useage. MW50 use destroyed the spark plugs in the BMW801 after a minute or two.
from K.Tank's bio
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not just the least modeled but worst performer.
Tell that to the spit whiners
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MW50 required frequent spark plug changes but where did you come up with spark plug damage after a minute or two. Proof? I'm inclined to belive the words out of a former Lufftwaffe pilot who says they they used MW50 to counteract the Spit9 in order to survive rather than that they simply out rolled and flew them because of their "uber human piloting skills".
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If you cant take his word about the MW50 to counteract the Spit9, how can you take him at his words about his kills?
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MiloMorai,
HT doesn't model maintenance issues.
Wilbus,
W. Green mentions the use of MW50 from A4's on, but I have never seen a chart showing its performance. The question I have is just what exactly is our "WEP" on the 190a's.
F.
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Yes I know it is not modelled. The point was MW50 was not a reliable, effective power boost until the A-8.
As for Green, he started many of the LW myths. Was it not Green who said the MG151/15 was mounted as cowl guns in the 109K?
I would believe the a/c designer before I would believe any pilot.
Here is another thought to ponder. When the MW50s 115l. tank was added the CG changed and the radio and ETC rack were moved to compensate. Was there sucha re-design done on the A-4? This was before the 150mm stretch to the nose remember; the CG of the A-4 must have been really rear biased and have absolutely autrocious handling therefore.
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MW50 was kept in a 25 gallon cylinderical tank behind pilot.
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I've never read anything by W. Green nor do I think I will after what I've heard about him now.
Furious, yes we need to find charts about it and that's why I am about to spend $100 on the A5/A6 handbook :D (just hope there is something about it in there).
As for the MW50 being used in the versions prior to the A8 I am pretty sure it was and was used operationally, Otto Stammberger was an ace who flew a long time in combat and survived the war, I think he knows what he's talking about.
WEP existed in the LW without MW50 aswell, not sure what it was though, just aircooled with throttle at 110%?
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WEP is just the max allowed boost setting (starts to heat up engine at faster rate tho). With MW50 you can use a bit more boost within the range where theres so much intake charge, the combustion starts to detinate early. MW50 stops the preignition and allows normal combustion to occur with that higher charge. Basically MW50 is like todays octain booster you could buy at Kragen auto except the Octain booster we can get is better stuff, lol.
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25 gal = 115 litre
1 gal of water weighs 10 pounds = 4.54kg
That is alot of weight behind the CG; how was this weight compensated for?
MW50 or ADI cools the overheated intake manifold mixture by evaporation.
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a gallon of water does not weigh 10 lbs, please do not speak and try to sound authoritative unless you know what youre talking about. you will just confuse people. thanks.
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Ah Zig, my Imperial gallons weighs 10 lb and the American gallon weighs 8.336lb at 62*F.
Some more
1 Imp gal = 4.546092 L
1 US gal = 3.785412 L
The ratio is 1.2 (to one decimal point). Now multiply 8.336 times 1.2. What number do you get.
Apoligy accepted.;)
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Hi guys,
>Ah Zig, my Imperial gallons weighs 10 lb and the American gallon weighs 8.336lb at 62*F.
All I know is that 1 L of water equals a mass of 1 kg at standard temperature :-)
Don't forget that MW50 is not pure water, though - a 50% methanol-water-mixture should be a bit lighter than water, about 0.895 kg/dm^3 I'd estimate.
Regards,
Henning (HoHun)
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Hi Milo,
>MW50 or ADI cools the overheated intake manifold mixture by evaporation.
Actually, the charge cooling effect of the evaporation wasn't the most significant of the MW50's effects. It's anti-detonant capabilities gave a greater power increase than the charge cooling alone since the engine could be run at higher boost pressures.
On the other hand, charge cooling was effective above the engine's critical altitude, too, where no increase in boost was possible.
Regards,
Henning (HoHun)
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Henning, don't be so damn technical.:p ;)
" Don't forget that MW50 is not pure water, though - a 50% methanol-water-mixture should be a bit lighter than water, about 0.895 kg/dm^3 I'd estimate."
The point tried to make was - still alot of weight behind the CG without any compensation in front for balance. Just trying to make some of them think.;)
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my understanding:
The cooling of the mixture in the intake manifold was the first step in the process of obtaining more power. If the mixture's temperature was not brought down, the dieseling or pre-ignition occured. The cooler charge allowed an increase in boost pressure with its accompaning added heat.
cheers Milo
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Milomarai, the weight is not much different from the AUX tank being filled with fuel, and when it is, the plane is stable.
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Wilbus, afaik the A-4 did not have this AUX tank.
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Not most of them no. But I don't Otto Stammberger is a lier, thus he might very well have used it. Acording to my sources it was first beginning to be tested for the A4, then more on the A5 and finally being fully ready for the A8 and later.
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Hi Milo,
>Henning, don't be so damn technical.:p ;)
LOL! I'll try to strike a better balance in the future :-)
>The point tried to make was - still alot of weight behind the CG without any compensation in front for balance. Just trying to make some of them think.;)
Worthy of consideration! But the center of gravity was dependend on the load-out, so it might have been possible to fill the MW50 tank as long as no bomb was carried, or something. (As I understand it, the point about the A-5 was eliminating centre of gravity problems for all possible load-outs.)
>The cooling of the mixture in the intake manifold was the first step in the process of obtaining more power. If the mixture's temperature was not brought down, the dieseling or pre-ignition occured. The cooler charge allowed an increase in boost pressure with its accompaning added heat.
Actually, cooling the charge "shrank" the intake air, increasing its density so that every intake stroke would draw an increased air mass into the engine. More air, more oxygen, more power :-) The anti-detonant effect was due to methanol being less volatile than 100 octane.
Methanol injection was pioneered in the USA, by the way, where it was employed in Indianapolis racers in the 1930s.
Regards,
Henning (HoHun)