Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: daddog on November 03, 2001, 06:32:00 PM
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Naval aspects? The biggest change I will be doing will be submarines in the next year
I will not name any names, but several months ago we ran several threads about this. I was all for it and felt it would happen. :D So who were you again that said it will not happen? No matter, I remember quite well.
Ahhh.. yes I am gloating. ;)
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Plus it better cost some major perkies or else there gonna be 60 subs out there every night. Now, what about sub hunting?
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Originally posted by Boozer:
Plus it better cost some major perkies or else there gonna be 60 subs out there every night. Now, what about sub hunting?
PBY??
:D
Would be awesome to have them.
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Hey - WHO STOLE OUR ROTOR !
Come on fess up - this is not his normal reply ! ;)
Mike "Jordi" Bowman
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Originally posted by Mike Jordi Bowman:
Hey - WHO STOLE OUR ROTOR !
Come on fess up - this is not his normal reply ! ;)
Mike "Jordi" Bowman
Hey, you hush
:p
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Hope Gato or Tench or a nice U-Boat, 5 inch gun, 2 AA positions. Gonna be awwwwsome. Apparently you jump into the sub just prior to visual contact with fleet?
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Multicrew?
(http://www.swoop.com/images/logo_small.jpg)
EDIT: Um.....sig error.....I didnt really misspell multicrew.
[ 11-03-2001: Message edited by: Swoop ]
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Shure yu dident!
I think subs will be great. Would be nice to get a PBY, but the B-17 could do ASW in a pinch. The B-24 would be useful in this respect, as it could carry 8x1000lb, 8x1600lb, or 4x2000lb. :)
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(http://www.vpnavy.com/pv1.gif)
PV-1 Vega - 1 torpedo
(http://www.vpnavy.com/coronado.gif)
PB2Y Coronado - 2 torpedos
But, yeah ... Black Cats rule. :)
(http://www.onthenet.com/ag1caf/blackcat/color2.gif)
p.s. PBJs (B-25 conversions) were originally configured to carry torps too.
Originally posted by Rotorian:
PBY??
:D
Would be awesome to have them.
[ 11-03-2001: Message edited by: Arlo ]
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PBY's would be great! The first time I ever flew was with a WWII PBY pilot who was a friend of my dads. :)
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Would love to see the flying boats get modeled here. Air Sea Rescue, anti sub patrol, anti shipping, whatever.
I predict interesting times ahead for HTC.
Rock on guys!
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Silent Hunter II hits stores this tuesday. WW2 sub sim
SKurj
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How about Depth charges for the PT boats?
Perk point cost definitely a must as well as a limited amount.
Also, they must surfact to shoot torpedoes, unless other sub in sector.
Perhaps limited amount of "underwater" time to simulate battery power instead of diesel so that they HAVE to surface occasionally diesel power and to charge batteries. Not for long, perhaps for 30 seconds, just like weapons reload time.
If sub is near surface, provide VISIBLE shadow under the water and turnscrew wake.
More thoughts to come :D
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It appears that the subs will be controlled in the same way as the CV fleet are. I'm sure they'll also introduce freighters/tankers as well - more targets!
So, as the Sub will be incredibly slow, it's course plotting has to be really good. This is where spotter/recon planes could be used to view enemy fleets and then 'mark' them on the map - with these aircraft being the only ones that can 'mark' enemy positions. Therefore the 'last known position' can be set as a course for the submarine.
Possible aircraft that could be included are the ones above, plus other float aircraft, and I sure would love to see the Catalina or the Short Sunderland! :)
Regards
Nexx
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Well, cargo ships were rumored before this mentionging of subs anyways. I would go so far as to require them as subs cannot attack warships that well. Think about it. A sub has a speed between 15 to 20 knots on the surface, and half that underwater, but warships go 30 knots.
Cargo ships on the other hand should go about 10 knots or so.
Subs kill convoys. That is what they are for.
[ 11-04-2001: Message edited by: LtHans ]
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Um why should submarines have to surface to fire torpedoes? The entire purpose of a WW2 submarine was to run on the surface until it made a contact, get into position, submerge, fire torpedoes and escape. Submarines would only surface during combat due to damage, at night, or to finish off an unarmed or badly damaged surface vessel.
I'm pretty sure a sub could run flank speed on electric power for 30 mins or thereabouts.
Wonder if we'll get U-Boat pens?
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Oh yeah, to make submarines really effective / worthwhile ack on cv has to be more lethal or the cv toughened up. Otherwise the single suicide P51 will render them unneccesary.
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Subs in pacific routinely did "end arounds" on on the surface in daylight. In order to get into position for attacks enemy shipping.
As for subs attacking Carrier groups, well it's going to be tough. But if you happen to be in the right place at the right time. :)
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My thought on making subs surface or near-surface to fire was to make them vulnerable enough to kill from time to time. Unless we are able to get sonar, etc., subs will get kill after kill after kill without being found. I know the near-surface requirement is not historically accurate....but then again, so are a great deal of things in this Sim. My suggestion was just as a balance of power, unless we get subs AND sonar/recon, or some way to locate them. ;)
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Well subs would have come up to 60 feet or less for a sumberged attack. Periscopes left a visible wake in the water. Periscopes were also detectable by surface vessel radar as well as airborne radar. At 60 feet or less, a submarine silhoutte can be spotted by aircraft. As well as this a submarine on the surface takes a fair while to submerge leaving a decent amount of time for gunfire and / depthcharge / bombing.
It's highly likely that HTC will include an icon for submarines like they have with the PT. I'm wondering whether this will apply to periscopes as well. More then likely will imo.
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Mac, WW2 subs run on the surface all the time. 99% of the time. They only submerge when they go on the attack during daylight.
I assume what you mean by near-surface is a visible shadow in the water? AKA when the periscope is down you can still see it? You could see it in real life, depending on the water clarity. This picture is a best case scenario using Caribean Sea, which is ultra clear water. I don't know the average visibility in water, but I assume you can see subs at periscope depth fairly easy.
(http://wsphotofews.excite.com/038/RK/yG/u7/tk63645.jpg)
And I would think we would get sonar too.
Hans.
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BTW, which one of the FDB's is that Hans?
Westy
;)
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Are ocean "supply convoys" going to be incorporated into AH along with the subs? Historically, WWII subs were used primarily against merchant shipping. Except for some surprise muggings, they were really no match for surface warships, especially in terms of speed (they were extremely slow when submerged - practically sessile).
As for surface attacks, I believe most U-boat attacks were carried out at night whilst surfaced.
For subs to operate efficiently, they would have to have in conjunction with airborne reconnaisance. Otherwise, you're just left puttering around a patrol zone, hoping for trade.
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man.. PT boats cant run down a fleet.. how are subs supposed to do it?
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Originally posted by WarChild:
man.. PT boats cant run down a fleet.. how are subs supposed to do it?
Well, historically, subs were used primarily against merchant shipping convoys, not warship fleets. And merchant convoys generally tended to go as fast as the slowest ship...
Should be interesting to see how the subs are incorporated into the game.
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Subs never were intended to "run down" fleets. They patrol known convoy routes and position themselves to intercept key fleet and convoy elements based on reports passed on.
I suppose tracking fleets from the air would be useful, unfortunately the same planes tracking could also do the sinking.
Whatever happens, it looks as if there's going to be some anticipation and planning involved. (Imagine that) :)
[ 11-05-2001: Message edited by: Arlo ]
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Originally posted by Arlo:
I suppose tracking fleets from the air would be useful, unfortunately the same planes tracking could also do the sinking.
[ 11-05-2001: Message edited by: Arlo ]
Well, if bombing accuracy is going to be reduced, the planes might have a hard time sinking the ships. Unless they go in low, in which case they will have to contend with the flak from the ships. Plus, subs have a much longer "loiter time" than planes. The plane will eventually have to RTB. The sub can stalk the convoy and attack until it is out of torpedoes. If they can work out the cooperation between subs and air-craft, it would be very neat.
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Originally posted by Ghosth:
Would love to see the flying boats get modeled here. Air Sea Rescue, anti sub patrol, anti shipping, whatever.
I predict interesting times ahead for HTC.
Rock on guys!
Then let's make the bailers/ditchers that survive
an at sea dunking wait until a PBY or sub comes to their rescue :)
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Hoep it's a quick rescue. The AH oceans just aint safe GB.
(http://www.nauticalsupplyshop.com/images/nautical/uniquespecies/muttonsnapper.JPG)
<nods yup>
carnivorous bastidges
Westy
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Westy, yer scaring me. :)
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Me thinks that sea critter is overmodelled. Seriously, if you're interested in undersea warfare in WWII, you should read both "Run Silent, Run Deep" to get the American POV, then read "Das Boot" to see the other side of the coin. It's interesting to note how the success curves for the US Navy subs in the Pacific was the inverse of the German Navy's experience in the Atlantic.
In any event, those two titles contain a wealth of info on how subs operated in WWII. Generally speaking, subs only operated on the surface during the day when they were outside enemy aircover. With an air threat, they ran submerged from sun up to sun down (unless there was foul weather; then they took advantage of its cover), then ran on the surface during the night to recharge air/batteries. Normal submerged cruising speed was on the order of 4 knots, surfaced it was 12 to 16 (though 16 knots used an alarming amount of fuel).
Eventually, even the night gave the German U-boats no security to run on the surface. The British development of aircraft borne milimeter-band surface search radar forced the development of the schnorkel, but even that ingenious device was soon negated by continued improvements in radar technologies. Eventually, the Germans developed radar absorming material (RAM), but even this proved inadequate in the end.
The point of the interview article you should most appreciate is the part about how HTC looks to you, the player community to figure out what works and what doesn't. When subs at last join the AH stable of vehicles, it will be a fairly rudimentary implementation at first. It is the line drawing, to which we (the player community) will than add color, hue, and texture too. So keep those ideas coming, and don't get discouraged if the first release doesn't have all the bells and whistles you'd like. Just as ground vehicles were more eye-candy than true simulation when first released, so too will subs and ground troops start out pretty simply, to be fleshed out and improved as time and input allows.
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I'm lost here. What purpose will subs have in the game if they are controlled the same way as the CV? Point on the map and hope they intercept a fleet then man the gun when in range?
(http://www.innercite.com/~lsterling/elitesig4.jpg)
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i was one of those who surgested the u-boat <pauses for clapping :)>, now flying boats would have a purpose,bring on the flying boats!!
[ 11-05-2001: Message edited by: BenDover ]
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Before y'all get carried away, please recall the timeline for the addition of subs from the interview....a YEAR.
SKurj
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spoil sport!!! :p
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SunKing, if I understood HiTech's comments, what he was talking about was allowing you to set waypoint for the sub to get it within range of a target without having to be at the con the whole time. At anytime along the plotted route, you would be able to jump into a control room and begin conning a boat manually. He also referred to subs travelling in wolfpacks, and inferred that it was the wolfpack's course that was plotted.
What might that mean (and understand that I don't think HiTech and Pyro have worked out any details yet) is that the wolfpack will be treated like a mobile U-boat spawn point, in the same manner as the fleets can spawn PT boats. You direct it to the vicinity of an enemy target (fleet or convoy), then spawn an individual submarine to actually make the attack. I may be off here, because you can read so much into what he did and didn't say in the interview.
The main concern in the above implemenation is, how would an enemy attack the wolfpack itself? A fleet you can attempt to sink if it gets to close to something you're trying to protect, thereby preventing PT boats and other things from spawning. How would you go about sinking a wolfpack? Perhaps you would have to attack and destroy/capture submarine pens to prevent sub spawning. Maybe there would be a submarine tender with escorts that would be involved somehow. Again, the only thing we know for certain is that there will be subs, and that we won't have to spend hours locked into a vitual steal coffin to get into attack position.
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Originally posted by SunKing:
[QB]What purpose will subs have in the game if they are controlled the same way as the CV? Point on the map and hope they intercept a fleet then man the gun when in range?QB]
Exactly! Or, rather the torpedo tube.
I was much more exited about the next immediate project - one pilot being able to control 4 bombers. The end to pinpoint hi-alt bombing. Carpet bombing is coming.
Tactical dive-bombers and jabo will be given reason to exist.
miko
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I think the simplest thing would be to make U-boats and subs "persistent" and have the way-points of their patrol route set by a person with "rank" - until it is "manned", it will follow the route set by the way-points and hopefully RTB by the end of its patrol. At any time that an enemy convoy is "sighted" by the U-boat/sub, it is indicated on the boat's symbol on the map so player's will know when they can jump in to man it. Also, the route taken by the U-boat can be changed in "mid-patrol" if new information on the where-abouts of convoys is discovered, i.e. via surface or air sightings. Boats can also be resupplied by surface subs and boats. Heck, you could also stick in surface merchant raiders as well, controlled by the same principle.
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Originally posted by miko2d:
Tactical dive-bombers and jabo will be given reason to exist.
miko
Already a reason for it, miko... it's FUN! :)
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Will there be "perk" subs? :D The late model German boats had hulls, sonars, and torpedoes that were the foundation of both U.S. and Soviet sub technology until nuclear power and digital electronics permitted supplanting them.
The digital AN/BQR-21 I used on Dolphin was the digitally scanned development of the AN/BQR-2 which was virtually identical to the advanced German passive sonar based on a mechancally scanned cylindrical array. For reference: the AN/BQR-2 used a geared streering wheel to steer the listening beam just like WWII passive sonar. The BQR-21 has a joystick :)
I am not sure I would bother to play a sub in a flight sim. But if it is well modeled, all the ex-sonar techs and fire-control technicians will kill less experienced personnel :p
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Originally posted by streakeagle:
I am not sure I would bother to play a sub in a flight sim. But if it is well modeled, all the ex-sonar techs and fire-control technicians will kill less experienced personnel :p
Hmmm...not sure about that...sonar back then was really primitive...as was torpedo fire-control. I suspect everyone would be starting at close to page-1 if and when they are introduced.
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All you forget most important reason subs are for :
park sub near port and vulch fleet !
:D :D :D