Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: DanielMcIntyre on November 03, 2001, 10:23:00 PM
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Head On Attacks
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AW forward deflector shields sucked right?
but
how about when 2 aircraft are headon or within say 5 degrees of headon, the range icons disappear.
just a thought
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Ugh, no thanks. IMO, something like that would make headons harder to avoid, not easier.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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It takes two to tango... any angle is acceptable - this isn't golf, it's war, and I don't understand why this is seen as 'not fair'. Sure, I get killed in head ons sometimes, sometimes I come out on top, and if I want to avoid them, I do...
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Originally posted by Dead Man Flying:
Ugh, no thanks. IMO, something like that would make headons harder to avoid, not easier.
Err how do you figure that? Personally I think range icons are BS anyhow. But knowing exactly how far an enemy is and being able to judge closure rates at more then Mach 1 is rediculous imo.
Originally posted by Kratzer:
It takes two to tango... any angle is acceptable - this isn't golf, it's war, and I don't understand why this is seen as 'not fair'. Sure, I get killed in head ons sometimes, sometimes I come out on top, and if I want to avoid them, I do...
"It takes 2 to tango?"
Crap, if your opponent can turn more sharply then you, he will invariably be able to get his nose around for a HO before you've even completed your turn.
I wasted an entire tank of fuel in P38 yesterday trying to kill a N1K who's sole intention was to force a HO.
"any angle is acceptable?"
"In any form of attack it is essential to assail your opponent from behind" - Oswald Boelcke.
According to one of the most successful and greatest fighter pilots of all time, you are incorrect.
"I don't understand why this is seen as 'not fair'"
IMO its not a matter of being fair, its a matter of gameplay. Being able to hit a target from 1.5k (P51, P47's do this alot) headon is simply stupid. I had this lil problem with a N1K about a week ago, soon as I tried to turn for a deflection shot, he would line up for a headon. So I extended to 3k turned around and started firing my tiffies guns at 1.5k, started getting hits at 1k, he blew up at 500d. That kind of gunnery is BS and caused IMO by the range icons.
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Icons are gameplay related, mpstly because of monitor limits.
HO's are reality.
Why confuse the 2?
Add Richard Bongs quote about prefering a HO tactic on lessor equipped Japanese aircraft, then 'Ol Oswald makes your quoting him just a diffrent tactic, from a diffrent theater, with diffrent aircraft.
You want a AH Ladder with rules for TnB, which is fine and Exile would be more than happy to help you.
It's not good MA. Rightfully so.
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Another HO whiner.
If you shot him, he couldn't do it.
You have better guns than he does, and more ammo.
Time to practise, I'd say.
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Get used to it Zy, that's some folks' best air combat maneuver and they rely on it here.
But it usually can be avoided and I just roll under the brave joust warrior get my seperation and hunt elsewhere. They'll find another HO dweeb to roll the dice againt.
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Actually Boozer, anyone that MUST HO is firing in zoom mode, and if you are hitting the merge properly, they are meat, even if your in a lessor turn fighter.
Of course if your in a BnZ plane, getting in a HO defeated your purpose before the engagment.
Fuk, even I know this.
Where do you guys that don't, fit in?!
[ 11-04-2001: Message edited by: Creamo ]
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Sounds like you're saying it don't take 2 to tango. Go figure.
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Sounds like I just described 2 planes in fact, that “tango”, and told you the predicted results.
Either you don’t understand basic ACM, or are inebriated, or stupid.
Only one I can tolerate when discussing fact, and your drinking Kool-aid.
Carry on.
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Rear "6" attacks suck too. What's the point?
Westy
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Another HO whiner
My thoughts exactly. Yes, it does take two to tango. I have never seen a single plane HO yet!
Dont want to risk an HO? Dont play AH.
Want the other guy not to turn to put guns on you? Fly against the offline drones.
I think its time for all to realize that not everyone is highly skilled in ACM. Not everyone is going to fly like the other player wants them to. Someone attacking me? I am going to turn to put my guns on them, and if that means an HO, so be it. The other guy has my permission to avoid the HO if he likes, he has my permission to turn his tail toward me if he wants to, but DO NOT expect me to do it.
I certainly prefer a good turn fight with each of us working for a superior position in the fight, but not every fight will go that way, and alot of turn fights turn into a series of minor quick HO snap shots.
HO's will never cease to exist, I just wish the ongoing complaints about HO's would stop.
Dago
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Zygote..sounds like you had a bad night. The only thing I consider a HO is at the intiaial merge. (Which I sometimes do btw :))
After TnB if I get my nose around faster thatn you and give you a squirt of my ammo and you go down...that was NO HO in my books that was a good old fashion dogfight.
There ar so many times that people get the nose around faster than me and give me a nice all expenses paid trip to the tower that I believe many practice that form of DOGFIGHTING.
There is no cure for this because there is nothing in NEED of fixing.
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Skernsk has it right IMO.
You see the other guy at 6k both more or less coalt, both go straight at the other guy and once in range guns blazeing thats a HO.
Once past that first intial merge your in a turn fight or a E fight. You happen to pass nose to nose its a foward quarter shot but its NOT a HO IMO.
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what i dont understand is why a enemy is in a GV and you dont get a icon on them until there like shooting at you almost you can here the engine before the icon comes up!! but if it is your teammate you can see him from 6k???? :confused: :mad: :eek: :D ;) :p
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As a relative newcomer to AH, lurking off and on for months, steady now, I've hated the HO aspect of the game. But that's a flying style that has to be dealt with so I've learned to simply avoid them, or if I'm in a playful mood, just ram the SOBs :) Really not worth fussing over one way or another.
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I rant, rave and scream every night about balless Ho'ers.
Because....
It's my own fault. Each and every time. I know they're going to do it, you know, every one knows, but some where deep inside there's a little AW voice that say "HO's disabled". Shortly followed by a little AH voice that says "sucker".
Fact is, don't let any one point the pointy end of their plane at you, at anything under D1000.
There. Now it's all explained, I don't expect to hear anymore about it.
Until tomorrow.
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Let's forget the HO debate
I've flown both AW and AH and i've died in both due to spineless dweebmiester HO'rs. And yes I too, on occasion, have been a spineless dweebmiester Ho'r :D
It's a personal honor code, to each his own. I will try my best to avoid one on the merge, but if I find that's not possible... let's roll. I die 90% of the time and the other 10% i'm left with only half a wing and struggling to land. :p
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Ok, there are two reasons I try to avoid an HO.
1) In an HO, it is very rare that my plane is not damaged or destroyed. I like to fight in a clean plane. Thus, I don't want bullets hitting it.
2) By avoiding the HO, I set myself up for a position of advantage on the pour soul who just wasted whatever advantage he had on me by trying desperately for the HO kill.
As far as HO's being right or wrong or lame or whatever you want to call them, I could care less. Any shot is a valid shot. If someone wants to blow their chances of beating me 1v1 by going for the HO, they are welcome to it. Yes, they piss me off, but not because it was a HO. They piss me off because I screwed up and let them shoot me.
-math
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Sheesh it was just a suggestion, no need to get all worked up :D
Obviously everyone loves their range icons, so thats that.
I haven't been killed 1 v 1 this entire tour, and I haven't been killed in HO this entire tour. In fact this is the best i've ever done in AH so far. So i'm happy.
Consider this thread closed.
:D
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"yes I too, on occasion, have been a spineless dweebmiester Ho'r"
Me too. My trigger finger has tourettes.
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Originally posted by Mathman:
2) By avoiding the HO, I set myself up for a position of advantage on the pour soul who just wasted whatever advantage he had on me by trying desperately for the HO kill.
DINGDINGDINGDING!! A gold star for the Mathman!
As far as HO's being right or wrong or lame or whatever you want to call them, I could care less. Any shot is a valid shot. If someone wants to blow their chances of beating me 1v1 by going for the HO, they are welcome to it. Yes, they piss me off, but not because it was a HO. They piss me off because I screwed up and let them shoot me.
Pretty mcuh how I feel about it too. The way I look at it whether I got HO'd or not generally speaking every time I get killed (which is quite often) I have to give myself at least half the credit--sometimes more!
Drano
-math
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Originally posted by Zygote:
Head On Attacks
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AW forward deflector shields sucked right?
but
how about when 2 aircraft are headon or within say 5 degrees of headon, the range icons disappear.
just a thought
Something a lot of AW'ers don't remember, or else weren't there for, were the joust warrior threads in the Crash and burn. AW HAD headons at one time. The difference between then and now is the gunnery model. The difference between AH and even the new AW gunnery models are, imo, huge. My tactic for Zekes then was a headon pass till the hitcode was changed. Then I avoided them like the plague they are. :)
Once again they don't bother me any more, well, a small twinge of concious maybe, but I'm sure that will pass soon. ;)
Tex
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HO's? Whats the problem? It's a gamble, but it's a valid shot. Just don't try and deny it lol. Last time I called someone to the carpet about a very dweebish 10 minute target fixation followed by 3 consecutive HO's (c'mon guyz, an La7 vs a F4U and Russkie was pulling the HO's lol) I got for an answer................"It wasn't a HO, it was a high angle deflection shot" lol. Geez...just, just...CALL IT WHAT IT IS heheh :)
Tumor
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Originally posted by Creamo
Add Richard Bongs quote about prefering a HO tactic on lessor equipped Japanese aircraft, then 'Ol Oswald makes your quoting him just a diffrent tactic, from a diffrent theater, with diffrent aircraft.
Could someone post a link or reference to Bong's HO statement? I've yet to be able to find it on the net.
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I mostly fly Mosquitoes. Damn right I'll HO you because your ride almost certainly outperforms mine in all other categories.
And the people who whine that I didn't hand them a free kill can kiss me bum.:p
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Karnak
It's an old thread, I'm just trying to find where (when) R. Bong talked about HO's.
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It was McGuire, not Bong, I think.
"Offered in evidence is the Japanese reaction to the head-on pass. They don't like it and nine out of 10 will break first, even before they are in range. To be sure, the head-on attack cannot be recommended when flying a plane that has little armament, no convergence of lines of fire, and light armor, but what about this shout of "Banzai" and the suicide crash? Nothing about it because the Japanese aren’t living up to dying for their propaganda.
Instead they will break from the head-on pass in a vertical bank and try to come around for a tail attack. The P-38 pilot need only to keep on at the same speed or go into a shallow dive to defeat this tactic, for the enemy pilot loses speed in the bank and turn and will wind up too far behind to be a menace. In this case of the exceptional one who does hold to a head-on pass, simply push over. The Japanese pilot will invariably go up. One thing you must not do when committed to a head-on pass: you must not turn until entirely clear."
Combat Tactics in the SouthWest Pacific Area (http://rhinobytes.com/haze/mcguire.htm)
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Originally posted by DanielMcIntyre
I wasted an entire tank of fuel in P38 yesterday trying to kill a N1K who's sole intention was to force a HO.
Then you weren't flying correctly. Instead of trying to go for a snap-deflection shot on the Niki, you should have gone vertical and roped it. The Niki would have burned all his energy yanking and banking for that HO shot that you could have easily roped him or safely BnZ'ed him taking away any chances of him trying to maneuver for the HO.
Ack-Ack
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Originally posted by Toad
It was McGuire, not Bong, I think.
"Offered in evidence is the Japanese reaction to the head-on pass. They don't like it and nine out of 10 will break first, even before they are in range. To be sure, the head-on attack cannot be recommended when flying a plane that has little armament, no convergence of lines of fire, and light armor, but what about this shout of "Banzai" and the suicide crash? Nothing about it because the Japanese aren’t living up to dying for their propaganda.
Instead they will break from the head-on pass in a vertical bank and try to come around for a tail attack. The P-38 pilot need only to keep on at the same speed or go into a shallow dive to defeat this tactic, for the enemy pilot loses speed in the bank and turn and will wind up too far behind to be a menace. In this case of the exceptional one who does hold to a head-on pass, simply push over. The Japanese pilot will invariably go up. One thing you must not do when committed to a head-on pass: you must not turn until entirely clear."
Combat Tactics in the SouthWest Pacific Area (http://rhinobytes.com/haze/mcguire.htm)
Cool
Thanks Toad
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I'll never ever understand this hatred of the HO. To me, it's a risky move and one that I personally do my best to avoid. I've read countless accounts of HO's in combat. I'm pretty sure even eagle-eyed Chuck Yeager was shot down in a head-on with a 190.