Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Viper17 on June 17, 2002, 07:38:59 PM
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Is the 109G6 we have Erich Hartmann's. If so could it be redone to pay honer to the Ace of Aces? It would be Wonderfull I think. And no im not some Nazi Sypthiser I just think He was a Great pilot.(http://ahss75)
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:mad: how do you post multiple pics :mad:
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Why the hell would that make you a nazi sympathizer?
F.
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Furious, the are a few stupid people (I've run into a few the past week even) who seem to think whenever you say that you like a german plane or think a german pilot is good you're a Nazi.
Just last night I encountered a guy who came in (never seen his name before of course) and said "Luft waffe the nazi airforce". Kind of stuff that pissess me off and makes viper defend him self before anyone has a chance to say it.
Btw Viper, nice picture and yes he was a good pilot :)
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Just last night I encountered a guy who came in (never seen his name before of course) and said "Luft waffe the nazi airforce". Kind of stuff that pissess me off and makes viper defend him self before anyone has a chance to say it.
Uh ?
I don't get it ...
As the nazi were at the governement how can it be otherwise ?
It's like saying "VVS the comunist airforce" is it different ?
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Ur right Straffo but the problem is that u can't differ if this guys is trying to say that all AH guys flying LW-planes are nazis or not.
BTW He said "LUFFE WAFFE NAZI AIRFORC".
Could somebody tell me what a luffe waffe is? :D
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Yeah you hear dthat Duedel, I just typed "luft waffe" as he did :)
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OH CRAP! We're quickly moving away from the subject here!!
NICE 109!!!
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and USAAF was Democrat airforce back then, huh ?
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These two quotes always make me smile (a kinda dry smile though), I suppose they say something about the democratic airforce.
The bombing of non-combatant populations violated international and humanitarian laws.
-American protest to Japan about its bombing of China in 1938
The American Government and the American people have for some time pursued a policy of wholeheartedly condemning the unprovoked bombing and machine-gunning of civilian populations from the air .
-American President Roosevelt on the Soviet bombing of Helsinki in 1939
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I didn't make my post to start a flame fest :(
I was just pointing the fact that "technically" it was nazi.
I never said that LW fan were Nazi I even have been a member of a LW squad.
If it's a plane I can master I use it period !
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Originally posted by straffo
If it's a plane I can master I use it period !
hummmmmm so you will only use the spit, isnt it?
:D :D :D
J/K :D
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Originally posted by straffo
I didn't make my post to start a flame fest :(
I was just pointing the fact that "technically" it was nazi.
I never said that LW fan were Nazi I even have been a member of a LW squad.
If it's a plane I can master I use it period !
No, no, no straffo. It's too late. U are guilty if this thread starts into a flame fest. YOU ARE GUILTY :D :D :D
Ok back to the thread, oh yes its a really really nice paint scheme.
(http://www.hitechcreations.com/models/images/109g6.gif)
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Originally posted by RRAM
hummmmmm so you will only use the spit, isnt it?
:D :D :D
J/K :D
hehe :)
I'm a spit wanabee ;)
but I can't do anything in this plane ...
it just don't feel right ...
Why I don't know I've tried about 10 tour with the spit untill I figured it was the plane not the pilot :D
Gimmy a Yak a D9 or a Typhoon even a G10 and I feel at home
but not with any of the spit :(
@Duedel
Guilty and charged ;)
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The USAAF has always been the American air force. As near as I can tell, the USA has NEVER changed governments.. while Russia and Germany were both under different parties during WWII than they are today.
The 1938-1945 LuftWaffe was built up and funded by the Nazi party. Makes 'em a Nazi airforce, don't it?
Same with the VVS of the same era, they were- well first they were purged- then they were built up and funded by the Communist party.
Hortlund- things change when you are sovereignty is threatened by a nation that performs a sneak attack on a nation not involved in any European conflict at that time.
-SW
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I think I saw on Discovery Channel that Hartman was anti nazi, he just loved flying and defending his country was natural for him as he was born in Germany.
I may be wrong.
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Originally posted by AKSWulfe
Hortlund- things change when you are sovereignty is threatened by a nation that performs a sneak attack on a nation not involved in any European conflict at that time.
-SW
Hehe, exactly....it is a lot easier to judge when you can yell from the side of the playing field and don't have to do the playing yourself...but when you have to start playing the rules obviously change...then all the things you were judging aren't that bad after all...
Good quotes Hortlund!!
Personally I just love the utter hiporazy and double stantards in them. :)
As for the topic, yep that profile drawing viper posted is the G-6 we have in AH. That paint scheme is awsome I just wish Nate would do similar face lift to 109s as was done to the spits.
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You're just sore you were on the losing side Wmaker.
-SW
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Originally posted by AKSWulfe
You're just sore you were on the losing side Wmaker.
-SW
LMAO!! :D
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:)
and the 109s could certainly use new paint jobs/cockpits/refined models... especially the G-2. ;)
-SW
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after the war all germans said they had been anti-nazi
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I found the following the other day and though it added perspective for just such a debate.
>Subject: Re: Not all Germans were Nazis
>From: "Thomas Schoene" TomSchoene@worldnet.att.net
>Date: Wed, 11 August 1999 11:04 PM EDT
>Message-id: <01bee46f$98728f60$20784e0c@default>
>Not being a Nazi doesn't necessarily mean you like losing a war >or that must welcome your conquerors with open arms. It was >perfectly possible to be a German patriot without being a Nazi.
Let me tell you a story. I went through the war from D Day to VE day. I had only flown 50 missions so I was 15 missions short of going home. We needed 65 to go home. I was stuck in the army of occupation for 14 months. Because I speak fluent German I was in the Ameican Military Governement and in contact
with Germans on a day to day basis. I met all kinds of Germans. NIce, ordinary ones who wouldn't hurt a fly. Good family men and woman, polite, well educated prople who made a good impression. The kind of people you would like to have as
a friends. And I had long intereeing conversations with hundreds of them.
They all said they were not Nazis. And they all said they were not political and knew nothing of the camps or the holocaust. And they told me about how they had suffered during the war and how bad the shortages were and how tough it was to get good clothes. But when they heard me speak German they came to the
very mistaken conclusion that I was in fact German. And how did a nice German boy lkie me come to fight against Germany?
Then very cautiously they would make comments like, Hitler wasn't all wrong you know. He did some good things. After
all the communists had to be stopped. And the Jews, well, what can we say about the Jews? This was a recurring conversation repeated hundred of times, again and again all the time I was there. Never once did a German confide in me and whisper that he/she was glad we won the war so the German people could be
liberated. Not once.
And no people can fight with the fury the German did without total dedication to their cause. During this period, I had visited the camps and the stench of burning flesh was still fresh in my memory. And so were those fine young men that never made it home. The German people, after WW II had only one regret and that was that they lost the war. In a previous message
someone blamed US propoganda for blaming the Germans for Nazi atrocites. It was as though the Germans were innocent and the US government was to blame for it all. Now that is revisionism of the most vicous and distorted kind. And exhibits an ignorance of the true conditions in postwar Germany that is truly
appalling.
Arthur Kramer
344th Bomb Group 9th Air Force
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Cont.
Charon
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X-Source: The Tankers' Forum
Subject: Re: Dan Welch and German vets
From: Dan Welch
Date: 1/2/99 10:31:49 AM
Come to think of it, has anyone ever read a German memoir where the author admitted to hating or mistreating a Jew or a Slav or anyone else? I think there are Vietnam memoirs written by men who feel remorse over accidentally shooting civilians. Has anyone seen that among the Germans?
Mike
The most interesting experience I ever had was with a family that lived in Baumholder. I and a friend went to their home for the Christmas exchange program when I was a PFC. There was grandpa and grandma, the son of grandpa and grandma, his wife, and their two children. Grandpa had rebuilt his small pre-war bakery into a chain spread over Rhineland-Pfalz, and was pretty much rich. His son now ran the show, and the grandson was a commo guy in a Bundeswehr arty unit. The grandaughter (a babe) was going to culinary school, and was destined to take over the business. This was in '82.
After the preliminary wine and small talk, including concern over the recent deployment of Soviet SS-20's. After dinner, I carefully broached the question of grandpa's possible participation in the war. I speak fairly decent German, and the grandson spoke fairly decent English, so as we got drunker, communication became
so smooth there was no barrier at all. As we all got more bombed on champaigne, they all opened up more and more. It ended up
Grandpa had been a member of the SA, had ended up in jail after the night of the long knives, got out, tried to join the SS, was denied because of his prior SA time, and ended up joining the Heer. He served in Poland, missed France, but was on the coast prepping for Sealion til it was cancelled. Went into Russia, spent like 3 years there, was wounded, recovered, got sent to the
west, and was captured. Got tired of sitting around in a POW cage, and managed to get out and walked back home. Found the bakery rubbled and the family gone. Tracked them down, and then started the process of rebuilding.
His son was the youngest drummer in his chapter of the HJ, and missed conscription due to his extreme youth. Grandma was extremely proud of he husband and son's service the the NSDAP, as were the grandkids, and the mother was the only one there who (and this was painfully obvious) seemed at all shocked or disappointed in the conversations taking place.
Since my friend and I were both avid historians, we knew about everything they talked about, and asked very informed questions, which had the effect of thoroughly pleasing them and flattering them, bringing out yet more open-ness.
This is the jist: There was no better time in German history, Hitler was a great man, the greatest German (Austrian never came up) who may have been misguided somewhat in views, but all people have these minor problems. Jews were not to be talked about, as when Jews were brought up, Grandpa in particular seethed with distaste. And in racial issues, Grandpa confided that the US Army was the greatest war machine in history, and that we should have banded together against the Reds. The only problem with the American Army was that if you had a company of 100 men, and put one black in it, it destroyed the worth of that company.
Grandpa's MOS was a bridge pioneer, and his main job was reinforcing existing bridges, whether light or damaged, to take the weight of heavy traffic and tanks. He had several stories of the eastern front, and told of things like kicking in a peasant hut door and making the woman their convert the sleeves of her shirt into a pair of gloves by cutting and sewing fingers into them so he could keep his hands warm. This was a common activity, kicking in doors and exploiting peasants for needs, since that was basically all they were there for. He never said anything
about blatant atrocities, but the general treatment of Russians was atrocious, which just throws fuel on the bigger fire.
The fear of Russia as the main threat to Europe was a standard concern, and it was obvious that this was a main point from his SA days all the way through to the (at the time) present. I would say that in order of dislike (hate might be too strong a word, but I wouldn't discredit it) Jews were probably first (but these had been largely dealt with as a threat) followed by the USSR, and then probably the third country nationals, that are just about universally disliked in Germany.
I'd like to state at this point that I used to visit these people back when I was 20 years old, during what I'd like to call the adolescant period of my adulthood. Back when I thought that the ultimate fighting machine in the world had been the Waffen SS, and was very into the German side of the history of WW II. I used to hit the flea markets and antique shops in Germany then, looking for war memoriabilia and militaria. My outlook has
significantly changed since then.
I used to visit Grandpa and Grandma on a fairly regular basis after that at their home. They were always glad to see me, and we always had a plate of pastry and plenty of wine. That was
a standard thing. We'd talk about the war mostly, but other things as well. I'd often bring books for him to comment on, and I tried using my German dictionary, but after the first visit, stopped bringing it, as every time I went to look up a work, Grandpa would push the dictionary aside. He insisted I'd learn better by just trying to understand without the book.
Although I have many fond memories of my times talking to German veterans, I must admit that I am embarrassed by the way I used to admire them. I have since changed my outlook on life drastically.
I do believe that some people are inherently evil, and that evil is a
real force in the world. I am not saying that German veterans are evil, but I do believe that in general, none of them look at the cause they were fighting for as evil. I believe it was. My wife is a Filipina, and my children are bi-racial. Although I would have liked to introduce Grandpa and Grandma to my wife, as they would no doubt have been delighted to meet my future family (they really did treat me like family), I don't think they would have approved of my inter-racial mixing. I also would not ever again go to visit, even if alone, just because of the belief system they had.
Also, because of my experience in the Gulf War, I have a serious grudge against anyone who instigates a war for anything less than a noble cause.
I'd like to make a note about talking to Germans in general, from my experience. If you don't speak German, you can expect the usual politically correct canned answers to questions about the war. They will look at you as a foreigner. But if you speak German, they will talk to you completely differently. Someone who speaks German and is white can expect to be treated almost like they were a German themselves, provided they are friendly and courteous, which Germans expect as basic protocol.
An underlying theme I found to be present during many conversations was the regret not of what happened during the war, but the main regret that the war was lost. If it had been won, there would be no need for regret. As far as the holocaust, suffering, destruction, etc., these things are a normal part of war, and although unfortunate, they should be overlooked
as part of the means to the end. Of course, I would not be so bombastic to feel that there aren't German people out there who are truly disgusted with the way things went, and who are good, wholsome people. But I know too well that there is an undercurrent there that is alive and well. I know Germans personally that believe that Kristelnacht is not that far
away from a repeat, and know one German woman who has moved to the US because she honestly feels it is not that far away, and she doesn't want to be there anymore. But this time, since there aren't any jews left to speak of, the violence will be directed against the third country nationals.
Anyone who's familiar with the Bundeswehr is well aware of the problems they are experiencing with neo-nazism in the ranks and the similar and larger problems of neo-nationalism. Simple things like re-adopting the jack boot have not helped at all, and many believe that measures like these were intentional. You would be surprised at how many Germans you can talk to in the US that believe, given the opportunity, Germany would try it again.
To get a bit more back on topic for the thread, my impression of Hartmann was that he was a young kid quite caught up in the excitement of pre-war nazi germany, combat flying and the opportunity to interact so closely with political figures he admired
at the time. No misgivings were expressed about Nazism (you don't get the impression he was what could be called a "deep young man") and his major problems with Hitler seend to center on operational issues.
I have no idea what his political views were after the war, other than there was no real condemnation about Nazism in his book. Having a plane in his honor, as we do with the G-10 (I believe the tulip nose scheme was rather rare I as I understand) is appropriate given his achievements as a combat pilot. He is not a hero to me, however.
Charon
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john9001,
You just a toejam stirrer or have you actually read any history?
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Thanks for posting that Charon.
"all ze Nazis...zey died in ze war..."
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Didn't Hartmann fly this model only a couple times, as the fancy paint job attracted too much attention? I seem to remember reading that somewhere...
...of course, I might just be delusional.
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Charon,
Evil exists in all nations. To imply that there was not even one German who felt remorse or was not a racist is absurd. Your posts are ridiculous in their content and context.
Many of the leading experten came to the US after the war for liason, training, etc. Many of them were highly respected by their US and British contemporaries.
F.
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Not at all furious, IMO.
I think these posts support German popular election figures rather well from 1933 onwards; support the strong German loyalty the regeim throughout the war; support the fact that unlike large portions of Italy, the German people didn't seem to look on even the Western allies as liberators; support the women crying like schoolgirls seeing the Beatles during a passing Hitler motorcade; support the cheering masses at a Nurembug torchlight party event; and even support the fact that I can't recally reading a book by any of these great German WW2 heroes as being critical of Nazism. Yes, they were often critical of Hitler's interference, but not what he stood for.
Were all Germans ready to throw Jews into a gas chamber? No. Were they willing to not look too closely at the actions of a state that they supported with an almost religious zeal? Yes. This subject has already been hashed to death, and there's nothing I can see adding here that I (and many others) haven't already covered here. This subject is off topic for this forum, but if you want to cover this ground why not pick up where it left off. I bumped the three major discussions at the time into the O'club for anyone interested.
http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=46469
http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=47595
http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=46882
Charon
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Originally posted by AKSWulfe
The 1938-1945 LuftWaffe was built up and funded by the Nazi party. Makes 'em a Nazi airforce, don't it?
[/b]
About as much as GWB makes the USAF a republican airforce right now when you think about it...
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Charon...why would any German see the western allies as a "liberator"? Where is the logic in that?
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Okay, I'll make it simpler for you Hortlund- there was no LuftWaffe prior to the Nazi party and Hitler. There was no German air force. The LuftWaffe was built for the Nazi party.
The Nazi party was a dictatorship- in other words, they were the ONLY party. America has 2 main parties, and regardless of who's in the president's seat... they are still both active in the government.
So, how does that make the airforce a republican air force or democrat air force based on whichever party has their representative in the president's seat?
-SW
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Originally posted by AKSWulfe
Okay, I'll make it simpler for you Hortlund- there was no LuftWaffe prior to the Nazi party and Hitler. There was no German air force. The LuftWaffe was built for the Nazi party.
[/b]
Uh...? Are you actually trying to say that Germany did not have an airforce pre 1934? Or are you hung up on names (i e that the name "Luftwaffe" was not used pre 1934?)
Allow me to challenge you on that, I say that there was a German airforce pre 1934. And I seriously doubt that you can baclk up your fascinating "Luftwaffe was built for the nazi party"-tidbit. The Waffen SS was built for the Nazi party, it was the armed branch of the nazi party. But the nazi party did not have an airforce.
The Nazi party was a dictatorship- in other words, they were the ONLY party. America has 2 main parties, and regardless of who's in the president's seat... they are still both active in the government.
[/b]
Well, first your definition of dictatorship is off. Second, there were other parties in Germany too. They did not make much use of themselves though, but remember that Hitler drew his power from a parlamentary vote. In that parlament, you had lots of different parties.
So, how does that make the airforce a republican air force or democrat air force based on whichever party has their representative in the president's seat?
It doesnt. Because it doesnt matter what party is currently in office. Something that applies to the US today (hence the USAF) and it applied to Germany in 1939 (Hence the German airforce, or Luftwaffe).
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There was no air force within Germany after the 1919, the Treaty of Versailles denied Germany use of powered aircraft and an airforce.
So yes, they HAD an air force... but it was disbanded, it wasn't until Hitler was in power that they got another air force... which they named the LuftWaffe.
yeah- Hitler used the parliament to get himself into power... then when he was in power, he WAS the parliament. It was HIS Germany... not a vote of the people, or of people in power, only Hitler mattered. That's a dictatorship.
Because Hitler needed an air force to invade, the LuftWaffe was created... and therefore it was created for the Nazi party because it was created for Hilter- the head Nazi honcho- and the only party in control of Germany during WWII.
You really do come off as a revisionist sometimes Hortlund.
-SW
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I'll state again, Charon, that your posts are ridiculous in their content and context.
Nothing you have contributed has anything to do with how admiring LW aircraft or the skill of a LW pilot makes one a nazi sympathizer.
Show me this connection.
F.
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Originally posted by AKSWulfe
yeah- Hitler used the parliament to get himself into power... then when he was in power, he WAS the parliament. It was HIS Germany... not a vote of the people, or of people in power, only Hitler mattered. That's a dictatorship.
[/b]
Actually no, it isnt. Not only because you are way off in your description on how Hitler came to power, but also because you are way off in your description on how Germany worked after Hitler came to power.
You should actually read about it sometime, it is kinda interesting. Let me just say this, on paper, and in theory, Germany was still a Democracy in 1945. What happened was that age old problem What happens when a democracy chooses to disband itself.
Because Hitler needed an air force to invade, the LuftWaffe was created... and therefore it was created for the Nazi party because it was created for Hilter- the head Nazi honcho- and the only party in control of Germany during WWII.
[/b]
Your logic is flawed because the conclusion you are trying to make is not supported by the underlying arguments.
Hint:
The Luftwaffe might have been created on orders from Hitler, but that does not logically lead to the conclusion that it was created for Hitler. Just as the A-bomb was not created for Roosevelt. Even though Roosevelt was the head Democratic-party honcho -and the democrats were the only party in control of the USA during WWII.
You really do come off as a revisionist sometimes Hortlund.
Yeah, well I have never heard that one before.
Apparently it happens alot if someone dares to point out that not all Germans were nazis. Just out of curiosity, where is the revisionism here? Is it my outrageous statement that the Luftwaffe was the German airforce and not the airforce of the nazi party? is it my implication that not all Germans were nazis? Or is it my pointing out that Hitler was elected?
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Nazi is as Nazi does.
If one took orders from Hitler and fought in an airplane and uniform adorned with Nazi symbols, one shouldn't complain about being called a Nazi.
It's really remarkable how the number of Nazis in Germany decreased 100% on May 8, 1945.
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Well no, I knew Hitler was elected. Nothing new there. If it was a democratic party, why was everyone below Hitler afraid of him? Did everything for him?
Whether you choose to accept it or not, Hitler was THE MAN in charge. I guess to you, a democracy is one person in charge with subordinates giving the illusion that they have some power. Based around this, Iraq is a democracy too.
I dunno what books you got up there in Sweden, but I think they might have been written in Germany during WWII.
The LuftWaffe was created when the Nazi party- ie: Hitler- came into power. It was built to defend Nazi Germany, while the A-Bomb was a side experiment (much like the Horten 229, it was not a Nazi plane, but it was built to defend the Nazis).
Have I ever said all Germans were Nazis? Eh, no. That's something you concocted in your head.
Your revisionism is that you are saying that "oooo while Germany didn't have an airforce because they weren't allowed to, they went ahead and created one AFTER Hitler and the Nazi party controlled Germany- but they weren't for the Nazi party... but because Germany needed some defense.... " in DIRECT VIOLATION OF A TREATY!
So again, I KNOW Hitler was elected into power... but after he was in power, he was THE power. Not this dillusional "democracy" you have invented.
-SW
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I'll state again, Charon, that your posts are ridiculous in their content and context. Nothing you have contributed has anything to do with how admiring LW aircraft or the skill of a LW pilot makes one a nazi sympathizer.
Show me this connection.
Furious
Show me where I said that, anywhere in this or the other three threads I bumped up (you might actually want to read through them even), and your posts may seem a bit less ridiculous. Similarly, show me where I said ALL Germans were Nazis [edit: as you do earlier in this thread]. And, if you can tell me what "The White Rose" (http://www.jlrweb.com/whiterose/) was without clicking on this link, then I'll think you've read more about history than the LW fanboi books (and I like to read them too). These are real German heroes.
I like to role play, and I don't think there's anything wrong with that IMO. Who could play a desert wargame or eastern front wargame and not be the Germans? I like Silent Hunter a lot, and played through Panzer Commander German campaigns first. However, I have no deep, overriding sentimentality for the German war machine, nor do I believe you can cleanly separate the actions of Nazi Germany from its people or military. As I’ve posted before, I don't connect the actions of the Nazi era with Germans today, and feel Germany has done a solid job dealing with its past, perhaps better than America has done with some of its less desirable legacies.
Charon...why would any German see the western allies as a "liberator"? Where is the logic in that?
Hortlund, that statement comes from the reactions of the Italians, who did treat the allies as liberators in many (but not all areas). Now, I can see three reasons for this:
1. They realized that the promises of fascism turned out to be lies that caused massive destruction and loss (all the way back to the Spanish Civil War) and that they were happy to see fascism overthrown. Some were happy to become partisans and even established an organized military opposition. They gave Mussolini and his hoochee a pretty tough time when they caught him.
2. They were cowardly people who changed loyalties when the tide of the war changed (though, as I pointed out earlier, some did take up arms against the Germans and the loyalists).
3. They had no deep connection with Fascism from the beginning, making either 1 or 2 easier.
I believe it was a combination of points 1 and 3.
Charon
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BTW, if we want to continue this, wouldn't one of the three old threads (or a new one) be more appropriate in the O'club? Please pick an old one since I don't want to rehash stuff I spent far too much theoretically "productive" time developing in the first place :)
Charon
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Originally posted by Charon
BTW, if we want to continue this, wouldn't one of the three old threads (or a new one) be more appropriate in the O'club? Please pick an old one since I don't want to rehash stuff I spent far too much theoretically "productive" time developing in the first place :)
Charon
Check the Nazis or just missunderstood thread.
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The conversation that this series of posts as played in my mind had primarily to do with whether an enjoyment of LW iron made one a nazi sympathizer.
As a former member of a "virtual" LW squad and a fan of LW iron, I am incensed by this implication.
However, after rereading the entire post, I see that prior to your post the discussion had turned into something else.
BTW, I did read in their entirety the posts you bumped. And no, I do not know anything of the "white rose",...yet.
I think what most people forget in these sterile BBS discussions, is the ease with which good people can be persuaded to do bad things. That is the real lesson here. Its not that "we" and good and "they" are evil. Its that "we" are good, but capable of evil.
The brushes being used are far to broad.
F.
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Germany was a democracy in 1945?
So when Hitler gutted the constitution of the Weimar Republic, he was still just running a "democracy"?
Hitler wanted to transfer all legislative power of the Reichstag to himself, but any change in the Constitution required a two-thirds majority in the Reichstag before they could become effective. Thus Hitler arrested or excluded 81 Communist deputies, and bribed the Nationalist Party and the Centre Party. As a result, in March, the Nazis outvoted the Social Democrats by 444 to 94 over the Enabling Bill which gave Hitler unlimited power. From now on, Hitler could draft and pass any laws without the Reichstag. The German Constitution was destroyed.
Hitler lost no time to consolidate his position. The Law of Reconstruction of the Reich (January 1934) abolished the state legislatures and subordinated them to the central government at Berlin. The Trade Union offices were raided by the S.A. and S.S. troops. Thus the Communist base of support was destroyed. On July 14, 1933, all political parties except the Nazi Party were declared illegal.
Kinda makes your point "The Luftwaffe might have been created on orders from Hitler, but that does not logically lead to the conclusion that it was created for Hitler. Just as the A-bomb was not created for Roosevelt. Even though Roosevelt was the head Democratic-party honcho -and the democrats were the only party in control of the USA during WWII. " seem silly.
I don't see any way you can correlate the NAZI party to the Democrats, unless the Dems declared the GOP illegal. As much as that might be a good thing, it couldn't and didn't happen. Germany was a totalitarian dictatorship from 1933 on.
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What Charon said goes much deeper then this ole LW fan boy club. To understand Nazi Germany it is not enough to read popular books over 39-45.
Yes, the Germans are polite and correct, love children and little Animals. Their donations in Music,Science and Literature are some of the best in Mankind. But they also used Cyclone B in the Gas chambers.
And about "Happines of liberation" by the western allies. The Germans where just happy that the Yanks and Tommies where faster then the Russians (at least a part of Germany) No wonder after some "activities" of the Wehrmacht and WaffenSS in the east.
And even the Austrians declare still themselves as the first victims of the Nazi Germany, forgettin that over 95% voted for the "Anschluss"
Also for dealing with the own history are 60 years for dispence not enough. Maybe 600?
metro
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Hortlund couldn't be any more precise. Looking from a far is sure to judge others and condemn them for their mistakes and forget your own.
I'll tell you a little story I guess you knew but the rise of Hitler was mainly due to the Illegal treaty of Versailles imposed by the allies at the end of WW1,even though President Wilson tried not to iput such terms, blaming Germany for starting WWI and stripping it of everything. Germany was just defending her allies and sovereign territory in Europe. This caused major civil unrest and caused economic helplessness that lasted until the early 1930s while other countries enjoyed economic security throughout the 20s, and would have had Germany paying war reparations until the 1990s.
It effectively destroyed their pride, their faith in government, democratic government (ironic isn't it) which lead it and its people to take a radical action like putting someone like Hitler in power.
The Germans are very proud people and even though many have not been Nazis or belonged to the party they saw what this man did to their country in the early stages of his reign . He delivered on what he said he would do, this turned many non believers into people who turned 180 around and started to believe, some even might as well be fanatical about it.
The military service was part of this the National pride many felt and the call to arms to make powerful this rebuilt nation and people from all over came to join. Why? it wasn't 100% because of this guy it was because they were caught in the jubilee of seeing their country was again being a powerful proud nation, a shadow of what it was after WWI and the following decade.
To put this in context so the Amis can understand... because Sept 11 happened many joined the different armed forces because they felt patriotic. GWB also encouraged people to join and serve their country in other different ways sure it isn't the exact same way, but it will give you an idea of what was happening at that time and what their mindset was.
Most everyone saw good in this, why? For the same reasons above. The normal German citizen didn't know what was happening in their own backyard, same as the Americans don't know WTH goes on in Area 51, even worse this is made because in that country there was not a form of free press which they could communicate freely and some would want like today to forgo some basic rights for basic order and security which this regime offered at the time.
As to the idiotic remark as why weren't they treated as liberators,
Simply because these same people destroyed many of their homes killed many of their children(note children in bombing raids) and destroyed frankly their livelihood . Secondly it was a foreign nation entering their own soil. It would have been as if when the Civil war exploded in the US, Britain came and invaded the US to resolve the problem by attacking both sides to come to a resolution to their civil war. Another example look what happened in Britain when the Germans and Brits started to exchange bombs over their own capital cities the people's morale strengthened and their resolve grew out of defiance(both the Brits and Germans). Even though they were under a tyrant ruler no nation wants to get invaded by another. In the case of the French yes the Americans liberated France by pushing the Germans out, in the case of Germany it was occupied and invaded by a another nation (raped if you count what the Russian regular infantry soldiers did in eastern Germany to young girls).
Can I say the Heer did not commit attrocities during the war no, nor can any other nation during WW2 they mostl likely did but like it has been said by some of you above it is "justifiable" "they were all Evil so they had to die, the were all Nazis."
Last but not least the Luftwaffe was part of the rebuilding of the country its name has always been Luftwaffe now it did grow during the regime as with all of the military expansion done during this time, again like what another president did during the 80's Reagan to the American armed forces. It indeed was part of the Nazi Regime War machine but the Luftwaffe pilot officers and the enlisted personnel for the most mart were not Nazis they fought for their country and their fellow man. Like today you have many Military people that don't necessarily agree with the person at the helm of the government but they do their job anyway the whole angle of you have to fight that hard because you have to believe in your government is nothing but bull. They fought hard so their country was not invaded, not ravaged, not destroyed like they feared no country as bad as their leader might be would like to get invaded specially as proud as the German were/are simple as that. This country today looks back at that time in shame mainly because their country was burned down to the ground and their proud nation was destroyed, they felt and still feel betrayed of the lost war.
But once again victors write the History and have excuses for everything they have done. Call it revisionist if you may, the truth they have been taught is not the truth they have researched themselves . That come from the same propaghanda that came during the war and many Myths that still prevail today(in some aircraft for example).
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(http://www.kolumbus.fi/koponen.lauri/Image1.jpg)
Yes nice little plane with nice little 30mm. :)
Bf 109g-6/AS soon? :D
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Glassess, they call it propoganda for a reason.
-SW
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G6 is nice plane! I agree that.
Btw. is USA a democracy? When is the next president lottery?:D Ooops.. Sorry..:o ;) :D
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Originally posted by Hristo
and USAAF was Democrat airforce back then, huh ?
Did they have donkeys on all their planes and people?
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Originally posted by Jack55
Did they have donkeys on all their planes and people?
No, in the USAF those go in the cockpit.
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(sigh) Do what he did close to 150 feet and shoot. You will allmost allwase hit.
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any way we can tell if hortland is really from sweden?
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I swear by God this sacred oath that I shall render unconditional obedience to Adolf Hitler, the Führer of the German Reich, supreme commander of the armed forces, and that I shall at all times be prepared, as a brave soldier, to give my life for this oath
I doubt the US equivalent was to swear loyalty to a particular party.
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It's pretty damn close, dude.
I do solemnly swear that I will support and defend the constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the president of the United States and the orders of the Officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the uniform code of military justice. So help me God!
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Originally posted by midnight Target
Germany was a democracy in 1945?
So when Hitler gutted the constitution of the Weimar Republic, he was still just running a "democracy"? [SNIP]
[/b]
As I said, what happened in Germany was a democracy that chose to disband itself.
At what point does that democracy cease to be a democracy? If the German Reichstag (who were elected representatives of the German people) decides to adopt a law transferring all legislative power to one man, is that illegal? "What about the constitution" I hear you ask? Well today, most nations have a safeguard against what took place in Germany 1933-34, but what if the transfer of legislative power was according to German law at the time? If we have a lawfully elected parliament, adopting a new law according to the rules set in the constitution what is the problem?
Well, the problem, of course, is that the new law transfers all power from the elected representatives to one man. But is that illegal? Well, no. Is the country still a democracy? Democracy is based on the idea that elected representatives should rule the country. The man was elected. The representatives who gave him power was elected. One might argue that as long as that man, who had been elected, remains in office, and as long as he does not try to transfer his powers to someone else, then he is still an elected representative of the people. And therefore the country is still a democracy.
Ok, so suppose the one man with all the legislative power now adopts a law declaring all political parties except his own illegal. Is that law legal? Why shouldnt it be? Who decides whether a law is illegal or not? Can a law be illegal? Here we stumble upon a philosophical aspect of this problem that has no answer.
At least the issue is far more complicated than you might want it to be. At least acknowledge that. Quotes like "Germany was a totalitarian dictatorship from 1933 on" without any real backing or any real argumentation might sound right to you, but as always, there are more sides to the story than you might want to realize.
Midnight, the quote you have posted on Hitler's raise to power might sound interesting and correct. But please check your sources. There are several factual errors in it.
How can I correlate the nazi party to the democrats? Both were political parties (albeit with somewhat different agendas), both were elected into office by a popular vote in a public election held in a democracy, both remained in power for the duration of wwii.
Democracy is a wonderful thing dont you agree? The price of democracy however, is that sometimes people will vote for someone or something that you disagree with. At some time, the majority of the people might want abandon the democracy, and chose a supreme ruler, a despot if you will, what do you do then? If you forbid them, do you really live in a democracy? If you allow them, do you really live in a democracy?
And please remember that the safety of a constitution is only an illusion. The only thing it does is provide a safeguard against someone coming into power and changing all laws overnight. Just about every country on the earth can legally and lawfully be transferred from a democracy into a de facto dictatorship within 4-8 years depending on what country you are talking about.
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The constitution guarantees the people the power. That, and no one would stand for transferring all power to any one party or person in America. It hasn't happened in 200+ years, it won't happen in my life time.
You fail to miss the point Hortlund- Germany WAS a democracy... then Hitler was given all the power, and it then became a dictatorship.
What part of that are you having a problem with?
And on top of all that, that isn't what my initial point was. I am not talking about pre-Nazi Germany, or post-Nazi Germany. Nor am I talking about pre-WWII America, or any other country for that matter.
I am stating that the LuftWaffe was built for Hitler's Nazi Regime for Germany in direct violation of a treaty which negates any "legitamite" reasons there could of possibly been for a German air force. It was built for Nazi Germany, not for a democratic nation with more than one party.
-SW
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Originally posted by AKSWulfe
You fail to miss the point Hortlund
Thanks, I wish I could say the same...
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Originally posted by Glasses
Hortlund couldn't be any more precise. Looking from a far is sure to judge others and condemn them for their mistakes and forget your own.
Glasses....pardon a bewildered old man's confusion, but....you don't really believe all this, do you? You posted this here as a satire? Right?
Good troll - I'm still circling the bait.
How did I manage to miss this thread?
- oldman
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This is just sad, Hortlund, buy some books written somewhere else than WWII Germany... you might be surprised to find out that if you didn't agree with Hitler, you were the enemy. Hell of a democracy that is.
So, I'm done with this thread until you read some real history than from what appears to be either revisionists or Nazi sympathizers.
With a quick click of the heels, and a flick of the wrist to the sky, "Heil Hortlund!"
-SW
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Nashwan wrote - I swear by God this sacred oath that I shall render unconditional obedience to Adolf Hitler, the Führer of the German Reich, supreme commander of the armed forces, and that I shall at all times be prepared, as a brave soldier, to give my life for this oath
I doubt the US equivalent was to swear loyalty to a particular party.
Kratzer wrote - It's pretty damn close, dude.
I do solemnly swear that I will support and defend the constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the president of the United States and the orders of the Officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the uniform code of military justice. So help me God!
Kratzer, your kidding right? One oath swears allegience to ADOLF HITLER, the other to THE CONSTITUTION. Do you honestly feel that is similar? How sad.
Hortlund, instead of saying there were inaccuracies in my post, why don't you point them out specifically. And no, the issue is not as complicated as you seem to think it is. As soon as the German Constitution was sacked, the democracy ceased to exist. Popular approval is not the definition of a democracy. There have been many popular despots in history. Some even used "legal" means to gain power, but you said Germany was a democracy in 1945. This is a desecration of the word IMHO.
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If only Hortland was a persuasive as his hero Adolf Hitler. All wrongs against the fatherland could be righted!. All the lies of the subhuman masses and the red fifth columnists could be exposed!
All ememies of the Reich would be crushed!
Germany was not defeated!
Germans did not behave any differently then the allies!
The Swedes did not sell the Germans high grade steel for the gold from Jewish teeth!
Germany would again have the history it wants!
Not the one it created.
If any of you dont read Hortland and Glasses dangerous posts and see the shadow of Goebels propoganda...read more.
And not from Mein Kampf II
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Again you feel the Treaty of versailles was the legitimate?, blaming one Nation for all that happened in WWI that it did not start, trying to effectively destroy it and starve it to death? Is that legal by itself?
You do see to fail why people like Hitler come to power feeding on the desperation the people felt at that time while seeing no one over turning what the treaty had done. For an American is easy to judge and point fingers,the real thing to look at is CAUSE and EFFECT you only look at the effect only, not the causes that lead to such a person to rise. The international community was as responsible as the elected officials were, what they thought would prevent future wars with Germany, created the atmosphere in which such a man could rise to power and do what he did.
Again the LW was indeed raised during the regime but its officers and enlisted personnel were not associated with the Nazi party infact most were forbeyed to join any political organization even the Nazi party , of course, some did because they were caught of the ethusiasm of the time(Later people who tried to withdraw from the party got shot,missing or shun out,so looking for their own well being most opted to shut up and put up rather than to lose their lives).
The quote of the oath was used by Units of the SS and the Hitler Youth who answered directly to the Nazi party and Hitler. The military itself was one other of the factions within Germany Hitler had to convince in order to gain power. He felt he had to create loyalty to him in the early stages of his reign, he felt the military would revolt against him, but it never occured, because even if they didn't neccesarily agree with the guy, it was their duty as soldiers, disciplined soldiers, to obey their commanders in chief no matter who they were . Even today again, you see that many military people can't just say, I quit and move on. In any military of the world at the time or today simply they would have been imprisoned or shot in some extreme cases, nor everytime a country changes its leaders can't they say so either.
It's really Ironic that the LW who it indeed grew during the Nazi regime being called Nazis while it was the most anti Nazi establishment of the German armed forces at the time. :rolleyes:
I'm not a Nazi sympathizer nor am I making excuses I'm just puting forth the causes for which people like Hitler rise to power and the Irony of the Versaille treaty and its futility which from POV was illegal by itself.
Even though they may have fought for the wrong cause, as some of here say, their service in the war and their accomplishments during that time, in difficult circumstances should never be forgotten its a diservice to these people to forget the courage they had even if they were fighting for the wrong side(the one that lost) .
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P-r-o-p-o-g-a-n-d-a Glassess, p-r-o-p-o-g-a-n-d-a.
LuftWaffe was so anti-Nazi it had Swastikas on it's planes, medals, uniforms, airmen badges, and even pilot logs.
They may not have been the Waffen SS, but it was part of the military- a military built for Nazi Germany to do Hitler's bidding.
What was the national flag at that time? Oh, that's right... a swastika...
-SW
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Yes and the military what could it do go on and protest go on strike ? get real Seawulfe those that did would have been shot for mutiny or for revolting against their superiors. Simple as that.
Again you can't understand and never will what happened at that time beucase you will still see the treaty as a legitimate act, which only enraged and disolusioned the German people, which BTW does not help in making friends in the international community in this country .
The only thing that stopped the Western Allies for putting such terms again at the end of the war , on a frankly destroyed nation was that there was a propaganda war to be won during the Cold War and the best way to make the Communist look bad was to rebuild Western Germany. Later, when they(the communists) closed East Berlin to let the people of Berlin starve to death , the Western Allies established the Berlin Airlift, am not saying the people of East Berlin did not need the supplies, they indeed needed them, but it was mainly because of that, to win the propaganda war .
Again I' not being a sympathizer I love the Democracy I live in and Enjoy it and I am an American Citizen since I was born. In any nation even a democratic one if you defy the establishment to overthrow the current goverment and you're caught you're going to find yourself in a pretty tight spot and you will be imprisoned for a very veeeeery long time.
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You don't have to revolt to show your disguist for your country, or who's in power.... did I say you had to? No, but that does not make the LuftWaffe somehow anti-Nazi... that's like saying the army, or navy, was anti-Nazi. Some people may have been, but the organization, establishment, the means at which they came to be (the Nazi party, and only the Nazi party had their hands in this), and the underlying motive for the creation of such an establishment means that it was indeed a pro-Nazi air force. If it wasn't they would of defected early on, not when they simply began to lose.
The loser pays for every war, the Treaty of Versailles is no different. But your love for the LuftWaffe, and your idolization of it's pilots, blinds you from seeing this. Someone has to pay retribution for the mass destruction, and massive loss of lives, Germany and it's allies lost- they were going to pay.
So you get real, wake up and smell the reality- regardless of what the Treaty of Versailles did to Germany- they lost a war in which they were the biggest and strongest enemy. Then they turn around and start another one less than 2 decades later. The Treaty of Versailles is somehow justification for the Nazi regime and the horrors they inflicted on a population? And the defenders of this regime are somehow not part of the regime?
Bulltoejam Glassess, read more objectively... I know the idolization of the LuftWaffe might be too much for you to accept that they were indeed defenders of the Nazi regime, a Nazi funded organization, and basically Nazis themselves with a few exceptions.... but it's true, just because a few said they didn't become Nazis doesn't make them heros or someone to idolize... they stood by and fought for Hitler and the Nazi regime.
-SW
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What about reading babek's posts ?
he is both german and wise : http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=515751#post515751
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The quote of the oath was used by Units of the SS and the Hitler Youth who answered directly to the Nazi party and Hitler.
That was the oath used by all the armed forces, I believe. It was certainly used by the Wehrmacht.
It's really Ironic that the LW who it indeed grew during the Nazi regime being called Nazis while it was the most anti Nazi establishment of the German armed forces at the time.
I have a reactionary army, an Imperial navy, and a National Socialist air force
Adolf Hitler
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"It's really Ironic that the LW who it indeed grew during the Nazi regime being called Nazis while it was the most anti Nazi establishment of the German armed forces at the time. "
Uh...right....
So since the LW wasn't as fanatical as their Army was, they must not have been Nazis at all?
Am I un-American because I don't go to city council meetings like my neighbor does? Am I anti-guns because I don't own 50 of them like my uncle does? Does not voting in the primaries mean I'm an anarchist? Since my aunt has 5 statues of Jesus in her car and I don't, does that make me anti-Catholic too?
Using that same flawed logic, I can say that since you fly LW planes in AH and I don't, you must be pro-Nazi.
Sorry, you're adding 1 + 1 and getting 5 from it.
Trying to "prove" the LW was anti-nazi and using the rest of the German Military as comparison is pointless. Sure, the LW wasn't as fanatical as the Waffen SS....but that hardly makes the LW "anti-Nazi", any more than my not having 5 Jesus statues in my car makes me "anti-Catholic".
J_A_B
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Dont get this too serious but without Hitler we wouldnt have this sim! :D
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Originally posted by midnight Target
Hortlund, instead of saying there were inaccuracies in my post, why don't you point them out specifically.
[/b]
Damn, Midnight why do I always get to play the role of the History teacher or the Law professor when I talk to you? I think "ok, sure, I'll try to explain", and then I sit and write and write (instead of playing AH I might add), and the only kind of response I ever get after posting a 2-page answer to you is some completely irrelevant ranting often combined with a personal attack.
FINE
1) The SS never raided anything in 1934, that was not part of their job description at the time. The SA might have, but the SS did not.
2) Hitler became chancellor in Jan 1933, nothing else. In a coalition government. At this point in time, the nazis were no where near alble to do as they pleased.
3) A new Reichstag election was scheduled for early March 1933. Only a few days before the election, on February 27, the Reichstag building was partially destroyed by fire. The Nazis may well have set the blaze, but they blamed the Communists, charging that the Communists were plotting to seize power. Hitler convinced Hindenburg to take strong action against the supposed Communist threat, and the president suspended freedom of speech and the press and other civil liberties.
That is president Hindenburg, and no one else.
4) In the March 5 election, the Nazis won 288 seats in the Reichstag. With the support of their conservative nationalist allies, who held 52 seats, the Nazis controlled a majority of the 647 member Reichstag. The Nazi majority was even more substantial, since none of the 81 Communist deputies were allowed to take their seats.
5) On March 23, 1933, the Reichstag passed the Enabling Act, which gave dictatorial authority to Hitler's cabinet for four years. Armed with full powers, Hitler moved to eliminate all possible centers of opposition. His policy is known as Gleichschaltung, which translates literally as coordination. In this context, however, it meant more precisely subordination, that is, subordinating all independent institutions to the authority of Hitler and the Nazi Party.
It was the Enabling Act of March 23, 1933, which in a legal way conferred dictatorial powers on Adolf Hitler. Only 94 Social Democratic votes were cast against it (out of 143 Social Democratic seats). The date for its abrogation (see Article 5) was never kept.
Article 1.
Laws of the Reich can also be promulgated by the Reich government apart from the method prescribed by the Constitution.
Article 2.
Laws decided upon by the government of the Reich can depart from the Constitution of the Reich, in so far as they do not touch the existence as such, of such institutions as the Reichstag and the Reichsrat. The rights of the Reichspresident remain untouched....
Article 4.
Treaties of the Reich with foreign powers which have reference to matters concerning the laws of the Reich, do not need the consent of the bodies which had part in the making of such laws, as long as this present law is valid.
Article 5.
This law is in force on the day of its promulgation. It is abrogated on April 1, 1937; it is further abrogated if the present government of the Reich is replaced by another.
And there you have it. In a democratic way, using strictly legal methods, a democracy was abandoned.
And no, the issue is not as complicated as you seem to think it is. As soon as the German Constitution was sacked, the democracy ceased to exist.
[/b]
Hm..yes, and when I show you that the German constitution never was sacked...? (Let me take a wild guess here, you will just pretend as if you didnt see/understand that part..makes it easier right?) Anyway, the problem Misnight, is that you refuse to acknowledge the fact that everything is not as uncomplicated as you would want to have it. You paint with too wide a brush, and when that leads to faults and errors, you go into denial so fast It'll make your head spin.
Popular approval is not the definition of a democracy. There have been many popular despots in history. Some even used "legal" means to gain power, but you said Germany was a democracy in 1945. This is a desecration of the word IMHO.
You really need to read more carefully in the future. I have never said popular approval was the definition of a democracy. What I did say was that Democracy is based on the idea that elected representatives should rule the country. Now either you do not understand that there is a difference between "popular approval" and "elected representatives" OR you just try to shift the discussion...just a tiny bit, to more suit your purposes. Either way its sad really.
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Originally posted by Pongo
If only Hortland was a persuasive as his hero Adolf Hitler. All wrongs against the fatherland could be righted!. All the lies of the subhuman masses and the red fifth columnists could be exposed!
All ememies of the Reich would be crushed!
Germany was not defeated!
Germans did not behave any differently then the allies!
The Swedes did not sell the Germans high grade steel for the gold from Jewish teeth!
Germany would again have the history it wants!
Not the one it created.
If any of you dont read Hortland and Glasses dangerous posts and see the shadow of Goebels propoganda...read more.
And not from Mein Kampf II
I am deeply offended by this. And it is sad really to see that your only contribution to this discussion so far has been this rather disgusting personal attack and a question about my nationality.
I really really think that we should try to avoid namecalling in here, especially since this is not the o club.
I find your attitude and this post completely unacceptable and it is deeply unfair of you to accuse me of the things you accuse me of here.
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Damn, Midnight why do I always get to play the role of the History teacher or the Law professor when I talk to you? I think "ok, sure, I'll try to explain", and then I sit and write and write (instead of playing AH I might add), and the only kind of response I ever get after posting a 2-page answer to you is some completely irrelevant ranting often combined with a personal attack.
The only thing you "play" with Hortlund are the facts. But I will try to ignore that it was YOU that started the personal attacks and stick to the facts:
1) The SS never raided anything in 1934, that was not part of their job description at the time. The SA might have, but the SS did not.
So your point here is that I attributed the raiding of the Trade Union offices to both the SA and SS and I should have accused only the SA. Sheesh. Lets just agree that they were raided and quit picking of the nits.
2) Hitler became chancellor in Jan 1933, nothing else. In a coalition government. At this point in time, the nazis were no where near alble to do as they pleased.
OK, Hitler became Chancellor because Papin (sp?) and Hindenburg were so worried about the gains made by the communist party in the prior election they needed a strong right winger to deal with the "bolshevist threat". Hindenburg hated Hitler, but agreed to the appointment because he hated the communists even more. It took Hitler only 18 months to "do what he pleased", so saying that he could not "at that point" is like saying a plane can't fly because the engines haven't started. Logically sound but irrelevent.
3) A new Reichstag election was scheduled for early March 1933. Only a few days before the election, on February 27, the Reichstag building was partially destroyed by fire. The Nazis may well have set the blaze, but they blamed the Communists, charging that the Communists were plotting to seize power. Hitler convinced Hindenburg to take strong action against the supposed Communist threat, and the president suspended freedom of speech and the press and other civil liberties.
That is president Hindenburg, and no one else.
True enough.
4) In the March 5 election, the Nazis won 288 seats in the Reichstag. With the support of their conservative nationalist allies, who held 52 seats, the Nazis controlled a majority of the 647 member Reichstag. The Nazi majority was even more substantial, since none of the 81 Communist deputies were allowed to take their seats.
Facts again only thin on the extra flavoring:"In the Reichstag election that followed(March '33), the Nazis banned the Communist and Socialist newspapers. The Nazis also made use of the radio stations to broadcast Nazi propaganda. The Nazi stormtroopers marched along the streets to influence the election. It was surprising that in these conditions less than one half of the electorate (43.9%) voted for Hitler, so that only with the aid of the Nationalists (8%) was Hitler able to obtain a bare majority in the Reichstag." Still a democracy? Perhaps...but getting kinda tenuous don't you think?
5) On March 23, 1933, the Reichstag passed the Enabling Act, which gave dictatorial authority to Hitler's cabinet for four years. Armed with full powers, Hitler moved to eliminate all possible centers of opposition. His policy is known as Gleichschaltung, which translates literally as coordination. In this context, however, it meant more precisely subordination, that is, subordinating all independent institutions to the authority of Hitler and the Nazi Party.
Well, thank you for making my point for me. The Enabling Act basically said the terms for making laws as set forth by the constituion are no longer valid. Hence the constitution is destroyed. 1 + 1 still makes 2 even in the revisionist world. Without checks and balances Germany immediately became a totalitarian state. I will give you the point that Hitler was arguably a democratically elected dictator, but the methods he used to win his election make that claim hollow and laughable.
and BTW
You consistantly sound like an apologist for Nazi's and when someone points this out you get offended. Now maybe you don't feel this way, maybe you just enjoy a good debate. I hope that is the case.
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Well I can tell from your posts that its not the history forum either.
There was no town in Germany that was more then 4 km from some kind of detenion camp or work camp. How could our LW heros not see that from the air? Flying over them day after day. year after year.
You have set aside rational discussion though you use calm worlds. I have no calm words for such a view point. The german pilots of course are no more guilty of war crimes then allied equivilants. But they are accountable for what they did not do. They did not die to stop Adolf. They died to keep him in power. For that they are accountable. For that they are Nazis. The allied men who died to stop them are heros.
The german pilots were willing to mutiny because they were called cowards by Goring. But not to stop Adolf.
You are a nut.
If you dont like having it pointed out to you, stop being one.
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Originally posted by Pongo
Well I can tell from your posts that its not the history forum either.
There was no town in Germany that was more then 4 km from some kind of detenion camp or work camp. How could our LW heros not see that from the air? Flying over them day after day. year after year.
You have set aside rational discussion though you use calm worlds. I have no calm words for such a view point. The german pilots of course are no more guilty of war crimes then allied equivilants. But they are accountable for what they did not do. They did not die to stop Adolf. They died to keep him in power. For that they are accountable. For that they are Nazis. The allied men who died to stop them are heros.
The german pilots were willing to mutiny because they were called cowards by Goring. But not to stop Adolf.
You are a nut.
If you dont like having it pointed out to you, stop being one.
Well, apparently refraining from namecalling was too much to ask.
Pongo, apparently you dont know very much about history, yet for some unknown reason you think you do. Please tell me what historical fact I have written in this thread that you disagree with.
Simple fact of the matter is that there is nothing wrong with what I have posted about any historical event here. What might be open to discussion are other, more subtle things such as the definition of a democracy etc. You on the other hand, dive head first into this thread with one of the most absurd statements I have ever heard.
Just to point out exactly how outrageously stupid your "no town in Germany that was more then 4 km from some kind of detenion camp or work camp"-theory is I want you to name the detenion camp or work camp that was within 4 km from Garmisch-Partenkirchen. (In case you have trouble finding it on a map, its in the south of Germany. Find Munich and go South south west towards the Austrian border).
Apparently you have very strong feelings on this subject, and while that can be good, because passion always is, it is somewhat misdirected. Now I dont know exactly where you learned about history in general, and wwii in particular, nor do I know exactly what kind of knowledge you hold. But so far, you have managed to post nothing but insults, personal attacks, obscure theories and outrageously stupid statements. Lets just say that so far, Im not impressed.
Now if you want to keep acting like a 12-yrold, then fine, I cant do much about that. But you would actually do all of us a favour if you would just squelch yourself and read a book or something.
(Oh, and medication might be an option for the "I have no calm words"-issue)
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target
all you do is through out personal attacks. Then start everyone of your posts with
YOU that started the personal attacks and stick to the facts
Not only are you a hypocrit but you are consistantly wrong. Steve showed you your facts were wrong just like in every other post you make. Pointing this out this out is hardly a "personal attack". Keep playing victim. :rolleyes:
Outside of the SS the lw and u-boat Corp drew to their ranks some of the most ardent National Socialist. So what. This aint ww2 its AH. The guy who originally started this thread actual went out of his way to make a disclaimer that hes not a nazi lover because he likes 109s and flies lw in this game. Why he would feel it necessary to do so I have no idea. Maybe he shares the same "guilt" as target. As much as a Nazi Rudel was he was a warrior and I have a certain amount of respect for that.
My neighbor does civil war re-enactments. That doesn't mean hes glorifing slave owning. Ofcouse target would assume so.
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You go right ahead Wotan.
"Tell a big enough lie enough times and the people will believe it."
I think one of your heroes said that.
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Is that your home town Hortlund? Not Sweden?
If I name it..are you wrong?
I will check out
"Hitlers Willing Executioners- Ordinary Germans and the Holocast" from the library again and put the full quote in for you. It is quite well supported there. if the quote says Average instead of absolute does it undue the LW pilots knowledge of the state of freedom in Germany in the Hitler years? Does it undue the obsurdity of them revolting for pride and not for atrocity?
I dont expect it to make a difference to you though. Cause if wont fit in with your agenda. You will just say it doesnt matter.
And yes I get very pissed when seemingly mild people try to calmly undue the evils of the German people in the early 20th century. We all should. I will leave others to try to calmly un-brain wash you. I will keep with my current tactic which is to point out what you are.
A nut.
Repeatedly pointing out that Adolf was elected without pointing out that he murdered his opponents and terrorized those who could stop him. Supporting Glasses who equates Hitler with Reagan.
Do I think that liking german AC makes you a nazi...no I dont. But flying one for Adolf certainly does. Revising through lie or omision the history of Germany during the Nazi years to portray it more favourably certainly does make a person a Nazi.
That is what you are doing.
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This is my last post in the whole matter because most like to see this as someone trying to convince you of something, I'm not trying to convince anyone, what I'm trying to do is put points forth which validate what I'm saying and I think I make a good argument.
It's really inflating to think that these men were cowards or were just fighting to defend Hitler, considering the odds that were against them and what the all benevolent allies were doing to their country's cities civilian population, and many relatives of the fighting soldiers, while many American civilians slept silently at night without being woken up in the middle of the night by the sound of air raid sirens and bombs exploding, they wanted payback for that. Though, Hitler was in error for declaring War on the USA and I agree he brought this upon Germany himself there is no question about that!
The rise and fall of the Nazis in Germany is much more complicated that what people are trying to portray. At the time(AT THE TIME) it seemed like a very reasonable step to rebuild the country and originally one of the plans for that dictatorship was to establish order and economic success then later establishing a Democracy, of course we all know what happened. Even Mr. Roosevelt at first thought this was an alternative , that being fascism, to rebuild the country which by the time Hitler came to power the USA was in the middle of the Great Depression and they were looking for ways to revive and kick start the economy, of course the upcoming war would that.
Again Seawulfe, regardless of their loss in WW1 Germany was not entirely responsible for the Central powers and it got the whole, note, the whole blame for starting WW1 . The Allies decided to impose this upon Germany which ultimately came to hurt the people not their leaders. The Germans rebelled and the subsequent decade was filled by desperation, unemployment, and homeless, massive inflation and civil unrest, while people in the Allied countries were getting rich fat and happy. Which lead people like Hitler to FEED, THRIVE, and have SUCCESS thanks to this atmosphere to take radical action thus the rise of the Nazis which amazingly during the early years delivered on almost everything they have promised .
Again the we won you lost argument and you have taken the Versailles Treaty and starved to death and your country should have been destroyed argument we see here is as disgusting as you calling me a Nazi or calling that am writing Mein Kampf II with Hortlund.
I am putting things in perspective of the events that lead such people and governments to rise even today like the Taliban like Saddam Hussein , and many other tyrants and tyrannical forms of organized government. I'm not making excuses for them I'm pointing out facts.
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Just to point out exactly how outrageously stupid your "no town in Germany that was more then 4 km from some kind of detenion camp or work camp"-theory is I want you to name the detenion camp or work camp that was within 4 km from Garmisch-Partenkirchen.
Garmisch-Partenkirchen was a satelite camp of Dachau.
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Originally posted by midnight Target
You consistantly sound like an apologist for Nazi's and when someone points this out you get offended. Now maybe you don't feel this way, maybe you just enjoy a good debate. I hope that is the case.
Midnight, let me take this opportunity to say a few things.
IMO it is really sad that I should have to say them, but judging from your reply and pongos ramblings, I feel I should point out the following.
I have no sympathy whatsoever for revisionists or neo-nazis, nor do I support, defend or excuse in any way what Hitler and his henchmen did and what they tried to do.
Germany 1933-1945 is directly responsible for 20 946 000 deaths. Anyone trying to defend that, excuse that, or diminish that needs to reevaluate his opinions (to put it mildly).
I am also half German. And I did lose many relatives in wwii.
What pisses me off with some posts in this thread, as well as in other threads, is peoples tendency to want to paint everyting with a big brush. Every German was evil, every German was a nazi, every German supported Hitler. These people, whether they know it or not, are often repeating allied wwii-era propaganda. The term Nazi-Germany is a good example of this.
In a war, you dehumanize your opponents. This to make it easier for the public opinion to accept the fact that war, basically, is about killing people.
It saddens me to see that this dehumaanization still exists today. Look at the kind of replies you and others have given me in this thread and other threads when all I have tried to point out is that Germans in 1933-1945 were also human beings, and they were not all evil to the core.
For some reason this is very provocative to some. Im not sure why really. Perhaps deep down they are wondering if some things "their" side did was right (Dresden), and it is easier to hide behind the dehumanization "They were all nazis, they all had it coming, they did it first, look at Auschwitz" etc.
Because at the end of the day who can really defend the butchery of unarmed civilians?
When you and others accuse me of being a revisionist or a neo-nazi, you have no idea exactly how disgusing that is. A revisionist is someone who tries to "change history", in this case to try to cover up the responsibility of the death of 20 946 000 CIVILIANS, non-combatants (yes, that figure is not including war-casualties).
A neo-Nazi is even more weird than a revisionist IMO, because he wants to start killing people again...
The only thing I can think of right now that might make you understand exactly how disgusting it feels to be accused of that, might be if someone accused you of raping your own child.
There is a difference between being German in 1933-45 and being a nazi. The world is not and has never been all black or all white. I will never accept that someone wants to paint all Germans with the nazi-brush. Please accept that, and please stop insulting me by calling me names I do not deserve.
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Okay Glassess, your argument lost all weight right here:
The Germans rebelled and the subsequent decade was filled by desperation, unemployment, and homeless, massive inflation and civil unrest, while people in the Allied countries were getting rich fat and happy.
Yeah- you ever heard of the Great Depression? Those poor Germans.. no wait, between them and Japan they saved our economy and made countless jobs by starting WWII.
It's really inflating to think that these men were cowards or were just fighting to defend Hitler, considering the odds that were against them and what the all benevolent allies were doing to their country's cities civilian population, and many relatives of the fighting soldiers, while many American civilians slept silently at night without being woken up in the middle of the night by the sound of air raid sirens and bombs exploding, they wanted payback for that.
So, eh... they were defending themselves from a war they started? Or are you talking about WWI? In which case the Germans did their share of terror bombing French, Italian, and British cities.
No Glassess, indeed, in your own mind you might have a great argument... but history says otherwise.
Did I ever say Germany was entirely responsible for starting WWI? Not at all, you need a new pair of spectacles my friend... whether or not I'm all doped up, atleast I clearly read the points, which by the way I already know about(well the factual ones you have posted anyway).
But then, whatever facts you post here... despite some being incorrect... does not dispute the fact that Nazi Germany created an airforce in direct violation of the Versailles Treaty... it was a Nazi air force, it fought for the Nazis. It did not defend the Nazis until the Allies could recoup and figure out what the hell was going on, and start to fight back.
So basically, whatever point you are arguing here is doing nothing to dispute that the LuftWaffe was a Nazi airforce... it's only rehashing things I already knew (for the most part, a few things you must of pulled from a Nazi sympathizers book)...
-SW
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I like the way you avoid the personnal attacks there hypocrit.
But thats your mo.
:rolleyes:
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Hortland.
The world is not black and white. But trying so hard to portray any German soldier as inocent..much less a whole arm of the Nazi- German armed forces is very suspect. The amount of ignoring you have to do to equate the moral responsiblity of a LW pilot to the moral responsibility of a USAAF pilot is pretty severe.
Yes both sides destroyed citys full of civillians. Deliberatly. Both sides waged total war and both sides fought for what they thought was right.
One side thought it was right to enslave whole populations and commit genocide against them. Another side thought it was right to oppose that with all force available and thier own lives.
Are we acctually posting critisism here that the US was not being bombed so how could they know courage..they had the courage to die for other peoples children....Not to die to enslave other peoples children.
The guys on one side where Nazis. How ever skilled and however cool the paint jobs on thier aircraft they are Nazis.
Black and white.
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PEOPLE PEOPLE THIS IS CALLED HIJACKING. I WAS JUST SAYING IF IT COULD BE REDON TO MAKE IT AND ALL 109 BETER LIKE THE 109E. THIS IS NOT ABOUT NAZISM. IT IS ABOUT AN AIRCRAFT. But a nice discusion anyhow.:D :p
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Because at the end of the day who can really defend the butchery of unarmed civilians?
Hortlund
As I posted in the Dresden thread, I can for the following reasons (taken from that thread):
A lot of what we know about the relative success or failure of any bombing approach was learned after the fact. The bombing surveys did not come out until AFTER the war. At the time, both strategic and dehousing were considered to be more successful than they were (at least directly, see ancillary benefits below). [edit: Nashwan also provided some compelling, specific examples of the impact of the bombing campaign on production in that thread] However, they were very successful in some areas (petroleum) and provided at least short-term disruption in most areas attacked -- a week, two weeks, a month -- it all added up.
The terror concept was also still alive and well [as a military philosophy], in some circles at least. Hitler, for example, seems to have held on to it longer than most with his wasteful V-weapon programs. Terror hadn't been "soundly" rejected, though it was certainly questioned.
There were a lot of ancillary factors as well:
1. You have to factor in a reduction in quality, reliability and service life with the weapons produced.
2. You have to factor in the impact on resources with having to defend the homeland. Each plane defending the homeland couldn't be used out East. Each experienced pilot killed couldn't be replaced (some claim that this aspect made the campaign successful in its own right). Even the "bombing round the clock" concept, that started as a sales pitch to save daylight bombardment, caused a increased dilution of the defense infrastructure compared to a daylight only approach. All of these factors made D-day that much easier, the Russian advance that much easier, and helped speed the end of the war.
3. The fact that we don't know what the final German production numbers would have been without the disruption, drain from relocation, death of skilled workers, and the damage of heavy equipment that couldn't be replaced or relocated. Remember too, those surging production numbers late in the war reflect, in part, Germany's belated switch to a war economy and I believe Speer's partial cleaning of up of the corruption and lack of coordination that had plagued German industry earlier. 25 fewer submarines or several hundred fewer Tigers here or there, and the war is that much shorter with fewer allied causalities.
Hindsight is great, but what's the alternative at the time? Allow unhindered production and say: "The lives of my soldiers and sailors and the life and well being of all those people living [and dying daily in great numbers] in the occupied territories is less important than the lives of German civilians who are supporting their country's war of conquest?" How do you sell that to the families of your soldiers, whose husbands and sons wouldn't even be putting their lives on the line in the first place if it wasn't for Axis aggression? In my estimation, a soldier fighting in defense or to liberate occupied lands is no less valuable than a German housewife. And hell, even in America, hardly the worst sufferer of the war, we lost over 3 "World Trade Centers" a month in war dead.
In an industrial war, one lasting half a decade, production has to be stopped. Tanks that are not made don't kill your tank crews. Torpedoes that aren't fired, because a submarine is not in existence to be on station, allow your troops and weapons to arrive where they are needed...
...I've seen similarly horrible pictures of German housewives and children killed in an air raid. That is very tragic and horrible. But I would exchange their lives, as a necessary evil, to save as many lives as possible from an unnecessary evil. I would even be fairly generous about the ratio. I would even do it if I didn't know for sure it would be 100 percent effective But strategic bombing did have, in many facets including its main purpose, more than a minor effect on the length of the war. Tragic, but not as tragic as stopping Nazi aggression as rapidly as possible.
What would you have done to end the war in the same time frame without any additional allied losses? (And remember, the bombing surveys are not compiled until after the war.) Or are the lives of additional allied soldier ok to lose in this cause, but civilians supporting the Nazi war effort totally off limits?
You lost relatives in the war, and I don't feel happy about that. From my point of view, I had a grandfather who missed the first five years of my mother's life -- and, in places like North Africa, Sicily, Normandy (later, in the Pacific, Iwo Jima and Okinawa) had his life threatened many times by bombers, bombs, glide bombs, shells, submarines and torpedoes manufactured by German civilians supporting their war effort. He was a coal miner from West Virginia who had no interest in a foreign war until one was thrust upon him, and I don't really see a distinction between the value of his life and that of a civilian supporting the war effort of a regime that started the most destructive war in world history [if their deaths mean the war is shortened and the toll on the non agressors is thus reduced].
Charon
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For those who belive the Luftwaffe was strongly anti-Nazi, please, please post the relevent quotes that establish this. Most of these aces wrote books, most of us have read most of the books. I don't recall any criticism (even in hindsight, years after the war) beyond areas like Hitler's mismanagement of the war effort. Certainly no major criticism of the ideals of Nazism. There may be evidence to support that they were anti-nazi for all I know, and if so I would genuinely like to see it.
Charon
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I really dont understand this arguing about whether the Luftwaffe or any other normal German armed service was "pro-Nazi" or "anti-Nazi". Such arguments are pointless. Who can you ask how the Luftwaffe or the Heer felt about the Nazis? Hello Mr Luftwaffe, do you like the Nazis? Not likely.
Anyway what is clear is that there were ceratainly individuals who had differeing opinions about the Nazis. In the Luftwaffe we had people like Molders and Marsailles who were decidely anti-Nazi, but we also had Rudel woh was deciedly pro-Nazi. Lets not forget the numerous attempts on Hitler's life by various conspiracies of high ranking Heer officers. Certainly nobody would say Count Von Staufenberg and his associates were pro-Nazi. What about admiral Canaris, head of Abwehr? And remember that Von Staufenbergs plan was not only to kill hitler but also to arrest the Nazi high ups and SS officals.
So I think it gets decidely murky if the normal (non SS, SS was unquestionably pro nazi) armed services were pro or against the Nazis. Different individuals at all levels of command had different opinions.
Now it goes without saying that WW2 Germany will always be seen as the Nazi period and anything connected to it will be connected to Nazism- one way or another.
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This is a pretty disturbing thread.
There's just a little bit too much name calling to be able to interject objectively, but I would like to add a few points.
1. In general Politicians do not measurably "represent" the populace they "govern". The politicians that I respect in my country (that does NOT mean that I agree with their policies always) generally do not last more than one term in office. Principles and basic human dignity do not mix with political life.
2. How many people do you know personally would advocate a reduction in the quality of life of any other person? There are exceptions, but those are generally governed by cultural factors and laws that reflect a culture's desire to punish individuals for crimes against individuals or the state. I don't know anyone who could realistically support an argument that would mean that children would die as a direct result. This includes WWII veterans that I have had the privilege of talking to about this issue, who came from all "sides" of the conflict.
3. How soon would your principles fade when you could no longer provide the basics of life for your family? This single factor contributes more to a persons attitudes to government and foreign policy than any other. If someone promised to fix this problem, and fast, would you vote for him in given the opportunity. It is generally accepted that Weimar Germany in the '20s was a very unpleasant place to be.
4. The democracies of the world are largely either Constitutional Monarchies or Republics. Both these forms of government assume that the general populace are such a bunch of handsomehunkes that they can't be trusted to get a law right in the first place so we'll either get a bunch of Aristocrats or Privileged educated folk to make sure they don't hurt theselves when they play at responsible governance. Two party political systems are DEFINITELY NOT democracies. There's been one stab a Democracy in it's truest form, and even then only Male Landowners were allowed to vote. They could however nominate and vote for anyone that met that criteria: Ancient Athens.
5. I Won does not Equal Good guys. I Lost does not equal evil guys. My country was used as a staging post for the Pacific invasion. There are one hell of a lot of 60 year old Dwights and Wyatts wandering about today, and some of them weren't conceived in a loving environment. Ask the female residents of Anzio and Naples '43-'45 if they remember US GIs with fondness. I have a grandfather that joined the merchant navy at age 14 because his parents had to go into service at a Manor in the early '30s due to a lack of funds, and they told him to go a get a job because they couldn't support their children any more. He then ended up in the Royal Navy and watched people do awful things to each other throught the Spanish Civil War, WWII, and KOrea. He joined the Merchant Navy to train as a Steward and Cook because he figured he'd always have access to food that way. This is how people are! They vast majority of people don't give a toss about political systems, just so long as they have a comfortable life for themselves and the people they love. The Irony is that this always leads to Tyranny of some sort - Nazi Germany is one example, and modern day Western political systems with their slavish dependence on commercial "realities" is another.
Stop kicking each other and try something constructive. Celebrate differences, and especially the fact that we have never lived in a more open global society. Look at where all these people come from who are contributing to this argument! How many times have cultures and "sides" been able to freely and openly swap ideas?
Palef
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If swapping ideas means re writting the history of Germany and the German military for the years 1930-46 then I am not interested in swapping ideas.
If you cant accept that the German military did indeed set out to deprive any one they could get thier hands on of their freedom and or lives then you have taken open mindedness a bit far. If you dont understand that the German military(all arms) was populated by Germans that are responsible for thier own actions and inactions then we dont have common ground to discuss.
At the time of thier attempt at global enslavement they called themselves Nazis. So I call them. The ones that participated in the war will always be subject to that name. Their fault. their shame.
More current generations of Germans of course are not nazis. Unless they try to rewrite the history or what happend. then whaterver thier nationality..I consider them Nazis...
The free speech that the allied soldiers died for does not mean that you cant be ridiculed for your opinions.
The fundimental issue here is that German soldiers were nazis. Even if they didnt carry a nazi card..they where fighting for the nazi way of life.
They were nazis.
No matter the branch of service.
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It seems anything involving german aircraft markings tends to decay into political and academic d*(& waving. Besides being a big hijack of the original poster's intentions, this kind of thing, at least to me leaves a bad taste in my mouth wrt the AH board. Leave all this discussion in the O-Club pls - your arguments on who's sources are right and wrong are pushing me into the realm of existentialism. You won't convince each other anything, why even try?
As far as the 109's and the other older aircraft's art - Natedog and Superfly have been improving their products steadily throughout the growth of AH. They've added more and more weathering for instance. Beautiful stuff, and AH still doesn't require that large a download compared to other games. Very efficient. I'm sure someday the other planes will get a facelift, just like the Spitfires did. Personally, I'd love to see a different paint scheme for some of the a/c; like the P-47's being done in those wild camo schemes of the 56th (hi Frenchy :) ), or Hans Dortenmann's FW-190D-9, but that is just me and if they don't change it's no big deal either.
Let's steer this another way... how much weathering and stuff do you think can be added until we start bumping into the graphics engine's limitations?
mauser
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Mauser- the weathering and other features are independent of the graphics engine. How the aircraft looks (coloring, etc) is done on a bitmap. So the limits of what they can draw is how good they are.
Now, as you'll notice, the new Spitfire models have higher resolution than the previous ones... this means they must have made the bitmaps larger (larger textures on the same size model will produce more fine detail).
So basically, it's just a limit of graphics card memory and not the engine itself.
-SW
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This was a HIJACK. And I am sorry I started it all with saying that I am not a Nazi. If I must I will move this to the O Club. Because that is where it belongs.
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Just out of curiosity......does the fact that I am a member of a virtual Luftwaffe squad, and I have a prefferance for German A/C, in your eyes make me a Nazi sympathiser, hater of jews and coloured folk, and a bad person? If yes, then I say you are wrong....if no, then what is all the argueing about?
Wether or not the members of the wartime Luftwaffe were dedicated Nazis or not is irrelevant , yes, Karaya 1 is a fine looking aircraft ( it's a G6 BTW, not a G10 as someone mentioned)
and the bloke who flew it, Erich Harttman, was indeed a far above 'average' pilot.
Personally, I admire the man for his ability and exploits as a fighter pilot, his political beliefs are unimportant, I like to fly the digital representation of his aircraft in AH, because I like the way it handles/ flys, not because it fought for the nazi cause in real life.
War is hell folks, NO side, in ANY conflict is completely innocent of war crimes, just some are more widely known than others.
In my opinion, war itself is pretty much a crime against humanity, no matter what cause you are fighting for/against, yet I myself would fight at a moments notice were my country/family/livelihood threatened, and I wouldnt give two hoots who was running the country at the time, nor what their political position was, so long as they allowed me to fight to defend what I consider to be mine.
Nazi or not, Erich Harttman was one of the most skilled individuals to ever strap an aircraft to his butt, for that, he has my admiration.
If that makes me a Nazi sympathiser, then I guess I really should inform my Aboriginal mates , the Asian family over the street and the Jewish bloke I chat to every day at work huh?.
Blue
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Why do you need to know if Hortlund is from Sweden?
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Originally posted by Hortlund
No, in the USAF those go in the cockpit.
Nazi military was very dependant on draft animals for transportation. Based on the revelation of Hortland the great, and the performance of the USAF, the Nazis should have unhitched the donkeys and put them in leather to fight for Adolf.
I guess jack and jenny would not be deserving of the Nazi ovens?
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I guess we chalk this one up to not really wanting to let this drop eh guys....
ok..
Bluedog. I agree with your entire first paragraph.
But where was the threat to the people of Germany in 1938? It was not in the people of its neiboring counties..it was in there own head of state. They chose not to do as you say you would and rise up and fight that threat. They chose to participate in the attempted enslavement of the world. That it predictably did not go well for them and they ended up on the defensive doesnt mean the war was a defensive war for the Germans, validating the " I was just defending my family" excuse for participation.
They started the thing. If they all had stayed home and worried about their families instead of putting the jack boot to anyone they could get at..that war would not have happend. Maybe another one would have. So for that I call them all Nazis.
That includes the Blond Knight.
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there is a cool hartmann story at http://www.virtualpilots.fi/en/hist/WW2History-ErichHartmann.html
(last third of page)
any hartmann paint scheme should have the appropriate "tail number"
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Originally posted by Pongo
If swapping ideas means re writting the history of Germany and the German military for the years 1930-46 then I am not interested in swapping ideas.
If you cant accept that the German military did indeed set out to deprive any one they could get thier hands on of their freedom and or lives then you have taken open mindedness a bit far. If you dont understand that the German military(all arms) was populated by Germans that are responsible for thier own actions and inactions then we dont have common ground to discuss.
At the time of thier attempt at global enslavement they called themselves Nazis. So I call them. The ones that participated in the war will always be subject to that name. Their fault. their shame.
More current generations of Germans of course are not nazis. Unless they try to rewrite the history or what happend. then whaterver thier nationality..I consider them Nazis...
The free speech that the allied soldiers died for does not mean that you cant be ridiculed for your opinions.
The fundimental issue here is that German soldiers were nazis. Even if they didnt carry a nazi card..they where fighting for the nazi way of life.
They were nazis.
No matter the branch of service.
OK, I have been trying really hard to refrain from namecalling. I dunno if I have been particualry successful or not, but I have tried. Be that as it may, some people really deserve being called names. One of those is Pongo.
Pongo you post lies (There was no town in Germany that was more then 4 km from some kind of detenion camp or work camp.)
You post insults (If only Hortland was a persuasive as his hero Adolf Hitler.)
You post more lies (Adolf was elected without pointing out that he murdered his opponents and terrorized those who could stop him.)
And more insults (...does make a person a Nazi. That is what you are doing.)
Go back and read your own posts, you wont find anyting in them but insults, statements without support in facts, prejudices and wwii-era propaganda.
Apparently you have moved me up a notch too, from "revisionist" to "nazi".
I'm getting tired of this Pongo. Apparently you are not capable of coherent thought, neither do you seem capable of backing up your statements with facts. In fact, the only thing you seem capable of is posting lies and insults.
When one looks at the way you are arguing, and what kind of statements you use to make your points, it is quite easy to get the impression that you are on the mental level of a 13-yrold.
Well, I have had enough of your insults. And since you dont have anyting intelligent or constructive to say, I see little point in continuing to argue with you.
You are so outrageously stupid, and the sad part about it is that you probably dont even recognize this fact yourself. There is a big hole in your knowledge, and you dont even seem to care about it. That hole where the knowledge was supposed to be, has been filled by someone or something with hate, propaganda and distortions. When you say that every german soldier in wwii was a nazi, that tells all of us reading this board that either you dont understand what a nazi is, or that you are incapable of coherent thought.
You talk about re-writing 1933-1945 history, but you have no idea what that history is. You talk about me being a revisionist, but you fail to realize that the revisionist in this conversation is you. So you are right. We dont have a common ground to discuss, because you dont have the IQ it takes to conversate about this. All you have is hate.
I hope someday you will stumble over a book or something that might upgrade your intelligence a couple of nothces. Good luck on that task.
I'm through talking to you. Consider yourself squelched.
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Hortland
But what your doing..revising the history of the Nazi era in Germany. deserves insulting.
You were told which camp was close to the town you named...
modifying the intent or effect of the terror the Gemans inflicted on europe does make you a nazi sypathizer.
The only response to such things is aggressive counter attack.
You want to change the history your forfathers inflicted on the world. I chose to protect the truth. That my forfathers stopped yours from enslaving the world.
the truth..
that Sweden sold high quality steel to the nazis for the gold from Jewish teeth.
The truth. That that war was started by the germans for the germans. The germans that participated in furthering the Nazi domination of the world...are of course nazis..
You say you dont like insults..what you dont like is the truth. Lets "grey" up the truth a little till all the combants are the same moraly..
Till Germany had no choice but to wage that war.
Till the LW pilots didnt know what kind of regime they were trying to inflict on the world...
You dont want the truth hortland....thats why your so worthy of insult. Because the lies you are trying to propogate are very dangerous. No matter how calmly you state them. They are not resonable and do not deserve reasonable discorse. I would not calmly debate with you whether the holocaust happend either.
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Then again, Sweden we're the first in to help anslaves people after the war. no maintain neutraility it's necissary to be nicer to the winning country, which is also the reason Sweden was nicer to the allies during the second part.
Pongo, insults is only the last way to try and defend your self when you've run out of options to continue an intelligent discussion. If one can't discuss without insulting then one has no buisiness discussing at all.
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Originally posted by Pongo
Hortland
But what your doing..revising the history of the Nazi era in Germany. deserves insulting.
You were told which camp was close to the town you named...
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First, I am not revising the history of the nazi era. If you honestly believe that I am doing that, please, PLEASE just tell me what I have said that you feel is revising history. Please do that instead of just insult me again.
Second, I have not been told what camp "was close to the town" I named (and I also note the drop of the "within 4 kilometers" part) What Nashwan said about Dachau was a joke (at least that's what I'm assuming.) So Im still waiting for the name of the camp within 4 kms from Garmisch-Partenkirchen (and no, you dont need to look for it, because there were no such camp).
modifying the intent or effect of the terror the Gemans inflicted on europe does make you a nazi sypathizer.
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Where have I done that? Please post a quote of me where Im trying to modify the intent or effect of what Germany did in Europe.
Did you see my post where I said that the nazis was directly responsible for over 20 000 000 civilian deaths in the 1933-1945 time period? If I was a nazi sympathizer, why would I post that? Shouldnt I instead try to ignore that fact, or explain it away somehow?
The only response to such things is aggressive counter attack.
You want to change the history your forfathers inflicted on the world. I chose to protect the truth. That my forfathers stopped yours from enslaving the world.
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This is just plain silly. Im not really sure what you think you are protecting, but whatever it is, its pretty damn far from "the truth".
I did note the "agressive counterattack" though...
the truth..
that Sweden sold high quality steel to the nazis for the gold from Jewish teeth.
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Well, to be fair, we did get payment in gold bars and not in bags of teeth.
The truth. That that war was started by the germans for the germans. The germans that participated in furthering the Nazi domination of the world...are of course nazis..
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This is where you are wrong, whether you want to realize that. Both morally speaking, but also on a strictly logical level. A person fighting for country A which is ruled by party B is not neccesarily fighting for party B. The logic does not add up. Person As actions may benefit party B, but that is not the same thing.
You say you dont like insults..what you dont like is the truth.
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Again, please show me a quote by me where I have said anything that is not true.
Lets "grey" up the truth a little till all the combants are the same moraly..
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And here it is, the core of your views. The reason you insult me so much and accuse me of so many things. In your world, all Germans are black, all allies are white. Everything the Germans did in wwii is a black henious crime, and everything the allies did is a white wonderful act of heroism.
Some day you will grow to understand that the world is not that simple. Let me give one example. Have you ever heard of the Lanconia incident? A german submarine torpedoed a troop ship outside Gibraltar. Lots of people went into the water, and the German sub commander (a black evil nazi by your standards) wanted to try to save as many as possible. He surfaced his boat, and brodcasted on open radio "this is german submarine so and so, I am at position x on the surface towing several lifeboats. I will not attack any allied ship who come here to assist me in salvaging the survivors." The German submarine set a cource for the nearest land, with hundreds of survivors on the deck, and with several lifeboats crowded with survivors in tow. The allies intercepted the radio transmission, and soon an american B25 bomber arrived and started to bomb and strafe the German submarine, trying to sink it. Despite the fact that the german submarine had put up red crosses clearly visible, and it was crowded with survivors (axis and allied survivors mind you).
In your narrowminded world, the above should be an example of the blackness of the evil nazis, and the heroism of the heroic allies. But someday, hopefully, you will understand that the world is not all black or all white.
Till Germany had no choice but to wage that war.
Till the LW pilots didnt know what kind of regime they were trying to inflict on the world...
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Now would be a good time for you to post any proof you have that LW pilots knew about the holocaust.
You dont want the truth hortland....thats why your so worthy of insult. Because the lies you are trying to propogate are very dangerous. No matter how calmly you state them. They are not resonable and do not deserve reasonable discorse. I would not calmly debate with you whether the holocaust happend either.
Again, what lies. If you can accuse me of lying, you can damn well provide the quotes for that. Where have I lied?
As for the rest, well, you do seem incapable of calm debate that much is true. But you have to realize that the person worthy of insult in this conversation is you, not me.
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Originally posted by AKSWulfe
The 1938-1945 LuftWaffe was built up and funded by the Nazi party. Makes 'em a Nazi airforce, don't it?
Same with the VVS of the same era, they were- well first they were purged- then they were built up and funded by the Communist party.
It is not true.
BTW, I still want someone to explain what is so wrong with communist party. Is McCarthy still alive and working for the white house?
Hortlund- things change when you are sovereignty is threatened by a nation that performs a sneak attack on a nation not involved in any European conflict at that time.
-SW [/QUOTE]
Well said. And that country has openly stated that the purpose of the agression is physical elimination of 90% of your country's population. Looks like Hortlund thinks that it's just "commie propaganda". It's always fun to talk to illiterates.
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Originally posted by funkedup
Nazi is as Nazi does.
If one took orders from Hitler and fought in an airplane and uniform adorned with Nazi symbols, one shouldn't complain about being called a Nazi.
It's really remarkable how the number of Nazis in Germany decreased 100% on May 8, 1945.
Thanks, Funked. Well said.
What wonders me is that so many people are so ignorant and never learn, as if they are immune from any agression in case their beloved "fighters with communism" will raise their heads again.
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Secondly it was a foreign nation entering their own soil. It would have been as if when the Civil war exploded in the US, Britain came and invaded the US to resolve the problem by attacking both sides to come to a resolution to their civil war.
WHAT!? Glasses, are you nuts?! Or is it what you are told on TV and comic books?
I wonder why do I have to read all this ignorant crap...
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Listen, personal thought is sacred--but when you go out of your way in public to make excuses, and/or try to seperate the Luftwaffe from the Nazi regime, people are going to think you have a soft side for WWII Germany; its true, and its also true that you can't ever extenuate the non-Nazi LW ideology enough to finally convince people who are obstinate on the view that everything German during the war perpetuated the evil that Nazi German epitomized.
The fact is that Germany was the country responsible for starting the war in Europe, it was a costly affair to finally defeat them. Sure the Allies used tactics that were equivalent to what the Germans & Japs did (bombing civilians), but the difference is that the latter two countries were the agressors, they were doing it for no other reason besides expansion and domination of peaceful nations. The Allies were there to put an end to the militant regimes--to restore peace.
To me, there's no positive outcome to argue over whether or not the Luftwaffe "was a Nazi air force" or not--because I like debates where there can be a definate conclusion. With this, it's like arguing over whether a certain sports team would have been more successful than another if a certain player or coach had joined, rather than the competition. It's filled with all assumptions and ideology. It's either one extreme or the other. The Luftwaffe was a Nazi air force, or it was a completely antiseptic from the Nazis and was there to defend Germany against its self-effectuated enemies.
Try to look inbetween the extremes, and you will realize that overall, the LW was a bit of both.
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As I said, what happened in Germany was a democracy that chose to disband itself.
So, thinking this way, we had 100% working democracy here in USSR all the time.
Hortlund, you continue to surprise me.
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Originally posted by Boroda
As I said, what happened in Germany was a democracy that chose to disband itself.
So, thinking this way, we had 100% working democracy here in USSR all the time.
Hortlund, you continue to surprise me.
Boroda, I can honestly say the same...you continue to surprise me.
And no, thinking that way will not give you a 100% working democracy in USSR all the time. Because the communists came to power through a revolution.
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nazi hmmm you mean the nationalist ?? , damn man you not need for this to be german at 1940 years !
this kind of brainles bastige existed before 2 k and wil exist next 2 k years :mad:
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Did all this start just because someone said one of the 109s should be painted like Hartmann's?
HAHAHAHAHAHAHA
LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL
I am not the only one w/ too much free time on my hands
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Hartmann's paint scheme is not complete w/out the tail number
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HOHOHOHO HEHEHE. Your funny man:rolleyes: This was rediculas.
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it means 'flying weapon' . the germans had the coolest names in ww2
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Originally posted by minus
nazi hmmm you mean the nationalist ?? , damn man you not need for this to be german at 1940 years !
this kind of brainles bastige existed before 2 k and wil exist next 2 k years :mad:
Exactly minus!!! I hope more people would understand it and quit pointing their fingers at others.