Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Sparks on June 17, 2002, 08:03:53 PM
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First let me be clear - I AM NOT ACCUSING ANYONE OF CHEATING.
Right - the other night I was in a Panzer attacking a V field anlong with several others. People were getting killed by another Panzer a long distance off. I spotted the panzer in my main gun view fully zoomed in at it was a LONG way off. I threw a range shot at it (using HE as it's all I usually carry) and it was way short at 3200yds. I then got killed by it - it was Whels !!!
I re-spawned and drove back - this time I heard the first hit before I had spotted him as he had moved - I again got killed so I private messaged Whels to see how he did it. Now Whels I know is a fair player and a gun Meister but even I was surprised when he told me the range - he said I was at the bottom of the site using AP (flatter trajectory) and he guessed my range at 6-7000 yds - 6 to seven THOUSAND yards !!! :eek:
Now IMHO this is unrealistic beyond belief. I know there are concessions to gameplay and that is fair enough but a tank killing another at nearly 4 miles is a bit daft.
I am currently researching this type of stuff for an unrelated project but the tank battles that I have seen the battle reports of give engagements usually at 400-600 yds and occasionally at 800yds. Tests were done on British armour and 88mm AP rounds would often not penetrate at 800yds.
Killing a tank at 7000 yds ??? :rolleyes:
Sparks
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hehe 1st of all i been Panzering in Ah for about 2 years, i miss the tank battles of the 1.0 maps.
i was at V64 on minda. i was just off the Vbase(about 500 yards). the base is on top of a hill, u were spawning in the valley. so i had the high ground which makes long shots easier. i never moved during the time i was there, i was forward just enough so that main gun could fire over the lip of the ridge i was on. my scope i have set to be fully zoomed in, with the bottom of the 32 mark touching the bottom of the scope circle. on those long range shots, i max zoom out bring the range marks in till they stop moving then zoom in till 32 touches bottom again. so im guessing
but it was probably 5 to 6k shots. even on level ground to enemy ive shot n killed 4 to 5k out on stationary targets, givin time i can hit moving targets 3 to 4k away if they dont change speed or directions much. my personal best id guess was 8k 1 hit kill :)
whenn Pzing every night on the old maps, i got to where i could stop aim fire for range and hit u with in 4 shots. u learn how to judge distance if u set ur scope up to come up same every time
u fight.
HE wont fly long at all, i always carry all AP, unless i know im killin buildings then ill still carry 24 AP incase.
whels
Originally posted by Sparks
First let me be clear - I AM NOT ACCUSING ANYONE OF CHEATING.
Right - the other night I was in a Panzer attacking a V field anlong with several others. People were getting killed by another Panzer a long distance off. I spotted the panzer in my main gun view fully zoomed in at it was a LONG way off. I threw a range shot at it (using HE as it's all I usually carry) and it was way short at 3200yds. I then got killed by it - it was Whels !!!
I re-spawned and drove back - this time I heard the first hit before I had spotted him as he had moved - I again got killed so I private messaged Whels to see how he did it. Now Whels I know is a fair player and a gun Meister but even I was surprised when he told me the range - he said I was at the bottom of the site using AP (flatter trajectory) and he guessed my range at 6-7000 yds - 6 to seven THOUSAND yards !!! :eek:
Now IMHO this is unrealistic beyond belief. I know there are concessions to gameplay and that is fair enough but a tank killing another at nearly 4 miles is a bit daft.
I am currently researching this type of stuff for an unrelated project but the tank battles that I have seen the battle reports of give engagements usually at 400-600 yds and occasionally at 800yds. Tests were done on British armour and 88mm AP rounds would often not penetrate at 800yds.
Killing a tank at 7000 yds ??? :rolleyes:
Sparks
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Hate to sat this but you can fire further - Use the Page Up/Page down when in full zoom to get more elevation - Note the only thing I've hit with this was a field gun at about 8k
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simply put, whels is the best pnzr driver i have run into. i have unluckily been found in his sights more often than not recently. best thing to do, grab a p38 and put 1k on his arse :)
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Oh I absolutely agree about Whels (bastige :mad: hehe) -
Whels - he can knock a gnat off a bulls back end at 20K with a naval gun !!!
My point is that it is way past realistic even to be allowable for game play .... surely ...... or am I just missing something. I mean at 6k I would think even an AP round would bounce off a tin dustbin and fall on the floor rather than go through 4" of armour plate.
PS - don't even think of tangling with Whels ship to ship - with the added naval gun features he only needs to see you on the roster - psychic powers do the rest I swear...........
Sparks
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bah WHELS come in , why you dont give away the secrets ?:)
i think any 1 haz to know when you on hil you can shot longer away and the distance on your range finder is relonged
about long shots sometime if buger not move i can hit them up to 7 k distance ! how ? easy use the head adjusting feature and pan mode many old folks know the trick but the dont give them away
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I don't know how you guys do it.
I've fired nearly point blank (100/200 yards) at the rear or another tank, and it takes 5 to 10 rounds to make it explode.
I've never gotten a one hit kill.
And yes, I've shot at various locations on the tank.
It must be a connection thing.
As to the original post - I thought range did have an affect on pentration.
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Whels is sure to most terrifying GV opponent i have met so far.
and about time you come tank/osty/naval for Rooks :)
Also the trick with gv shooting is not to kill the opponent but to disable him and make him quit out of boredom :D
Grtz,
Broesy
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A very long range shot will not be hitting the front or side armour..but the top which is 20mm or so thick. So it it can hit it is more deadly then 1000 yard hit.
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Good thread
With this great accuracy, can I ask this....
How can a Ostwind wipe out a town, but a Panzer can't ?
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37mm x 1000 = 37000mm +)
75mm x 80 = ermm u get the idea lol
SKurj
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wouldn't a 75mm have more kinetic energy than a 37mm?:)
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It's not just a matter of energy of the round, but also rate of fire. The panzer rounds may be twice the size, but the ostie's rate of fire is about 10 times that of the panzer. Smaller rounds, yes, but a lot more of them a lot faster.....damage builds up quicker.
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Sparks, I used to kill quite a few GVs at around 7000 yards, or whatever the range is on the very bottom of the reticle before it goes black if that makes sense?! ;) - Whilst in gun aim zoom right in, press F8 and then use your HAT so that you're looking further down the range scale or even below it. Remember that your mouse has a pointer.... hint hint.... I won't give any other secrets away ;)
hehe Whels, remember when you first started AH and you were rolling down the high speed hill from... was it 58 > 27 on the SFTERR and you accused me of cheating 'cos I could hit your tank whilst it was moving. Quite a simple task really but you were furious at the time ;)
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just another note about object damage and gunfire...
range(and any drop in energy) is not factored in, just what type and size of round you hit it with is used to calculate the damage to the object.
SKurj
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Dispersion should make hits near impossible over 3000m with 75L48.
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Posted by Skurj
range(and any drop in energy) is not factored in, just what type and size of round you hit it with is used to calculate the damage to the object
:eek: is that true ???? with the Flight models we have here I'm surprised. We have bullet drop and convergence modelled but not energy ???
Hi Nexx - my point is not how to do this long range gunning but that we shouldn't be able to hit at that range at all and even if we could the energy of the round should be so low that it should bounce off.
I'm at work right now but I'll try to dig out some info in some of my books about real damage caused by Panzer 3 and 4 rounds and at what ranges.
LePaul - I can take down a town with a panzer - needs a full load of HE and takes longer than an Osty but I have done it - advantage is you can do it from further away.
Nexx I remeber those tank rides on SfTerr map - I think it was 56 to 24 - coast down the hill in neutral straight onto the airfield if you didn't roll it into a ball at the bottom :)
Sparks
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Originally posted by Replicant
Sparks, I used to kill quite a few GVs at around 7000 yards, or whatever the range is on the very bottom of the reticle before it goes black if that makes sense?! ;) - Whilst in gun aim zoom right in, press F8 and then use your HAT so that you're looking further down the range scale or even below it. Remember that your mouse has a pointer.... hint hint.... I won't give any other secrets away ;)
hehe Whels, remember when you first started AH and you were rolling down the high speed hill from... was it 58 > 27 on the SFTERR and you accused me of cheating 'cos I could hit your tank whilst it was moving. Quite a simple task really but you were furious at the time ;)
I miss them 200mph tank slides down the mountain.
whels
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Skurj, is both correct and incorect. Engergy and angle of impact are taken into account when shooting other vehicles. When shooting ground targets they are not.
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Illo wrote:
Dispersion should make hits near impossible over 3000m with 75L48.
I find that statement a little surprising. Aircraft guns have fairly large dispersion because they vibrate rapidly from firing and get even more dispersion from the aircraft vibration. A stationary 30 ton tank should be quite a stable platform. Do you know how many mils of accuracy that gun mounting should be capable of? I am not trying to contest your statement. I'm just curious and would like to get some more specific information.
Hooligan
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Anyone know the approx length of a 37mm shell?
(I'll assume 6 inches here, low I think, but enough)
To hold 1000 rounds, you need a 10foot by 10 foot by 10 foot box.....
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Check your math. 1 X 37mm shell does not = 1 cubic foot of volume.
J_A_B
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How long is a 37mm shell?
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Size doesn't matter.
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Remember that a shell is only long in one direction. It isn't a cube.
J_A_B
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hitech and sparks, thats why i said objects +) I did not mean player objects +)
sorry for any confusion
SKurj
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An interesting discussion:
http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/docs/fm6-40-ch3.htm
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7000 yards with a tanks gun! Thats unpossible!!!
Crap, I thought I was hot when I nail a tank at 5k with a Vikhr in Comanche Hokum:(
Strange in Panzer Elite and iPanzer and most other sims with tank vs. tank combat I can range in with 1 or 2 shots but in here it takes me 10 to hit a hanger.
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Pooh... those games have more realistic sights, altho panzer elite has no time of flight modelled for the rounds i believe... kinda strange..
SKurj
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Posted by HiTech
Skurj, is both correct and incorect. Engergy and angle of impact are taken into account when shooting other vehicles.
If that is the case I must disagree with the modelling of the ballistics of a WW2 Panzer shell - I just can't believe that, even allowing for a more vertical trajectory hitting the upper armour, a shell that has travelled 6-7000 yds would do any more than superficial damage. Forgot to dig for the info and back at work again now but I will look into this again tomorrow.
If this is a concession to gameplay then what is the reasoning ?? I think many players find this feature irritating and a negative side of the GV battles.
Once again this is not a flame at Whels - he is using a ligitmate feature of the game extremely skillfully and I won't argue with that.
Sparks
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I don't find it irritating, tho if there was more cover... i'd be all for PZ shells losin energy faster
if shells were weak over 3-4k just imagine the tension building as i sit in my pz rangin u as you drive for 5 minutes til i can kill u. As it is now sure it might be unrealistic, but hey we get to fight sooner and prove our 1337 skillz
SKurj
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Panzerkampfwagen IV H - 75mm KwK40L/48
Penetration of Armor Plate at 30 degrees from Vertical
Ammunition: 100m 500m 1000m 1500m 2000m
Panzergranate.39 106mm 96mm 85mm 74mm 64mm
Panzergranate.40 143mm 120mm 97mm 77mm 0mm
Penetration at 90 degrees 500m 1000m 2000m
Panzergranate.39 114m 85mm 64mm
Panzergranate.40 143mm 97mm 0mm
Pzgr.39 (APCBC) - Armor Piercing Composite Ballistic Cap
Pzgr.40 (APCR) - Armor Piercing Composite Rigid (Tungsten Core)
Weight: PzGr39 (6.80kg) ,PzGr40 (4.10kg)
Muzzle Velocity: 790(m/s), 1060(m/s)
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Wish they tested to further ranges Zhivago, but I guess at those kinda ranges getting a hit would be tough +)
SKurj
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Originally posted by SKurj
Wish they tested to further ranges Zhivago, but I guess at those kinda ranges getting a hit would be tough +)
SKurj
I think 75mm KwK40L/48 effective/reasonable range was that 2000 meters, shooting over that range would be useless. Projectile would just bounce off from armor. But Panther or Tiger could knock out tanks beyond range of 2000m. Tiger destroyed T-34 at the range of 3900m and Nashorn (with 88mm Pak43/1 L/71) destroyed IS-2 at the range of 4600m!. Panther's 75mm KwK 42L/70 gun had penetration slightly better than Tiger's 88mm gun though Panther's projectile was lighter but muzzle velocity was higher 925,1120 m/s vs. Tiger's 773,930 m/s.
128mm Pak 44 L/55 gun max range was 22,410 meters :eek:, this gun was fitted to Maus and Jagdtiger.
More info ==> Armour penetration table (http://www.panzerworld.net/APT.htm)
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Zhivago u notice the penetration at 2000m right?
Thats over 3x the top armor of the PzIV in AH...
SKurj
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Yep, PzIV got thin top armor just like all tanks. Maybe this explains single shot deads at game. At Panzer Elite you could knock out shermans with single shot to top armor...
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I would lke to thank this thread as since reading it i've been doing a bit ground work in my panzer been playing AH for about 10weeks and never really got on with Panzers but now I got the whole :
1: load AP
2: elevate gun and mark the target with the mouse
3: fire
4: check range and move mouse
5: kill bad guy
just about sorted I have really started loving it and getting quite alot of 'good shot' and surprised remarks from people LOL :D
made it much more fun, thanks again for the tips :)
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If I've read the charts correctly the best Ap ammunition will penetrate 64mm of plate at 2000m (seems strange that there is the same penetration for 30deg and 90deg :confused: )
Surely this highlights my point - at 2000m which is WAY less than 6000yds - AP rounds can only penetrate the thin upper amour. At the ranges I initially posted about they should literally bounce off. I've yet to see anthing that convinces me that in tank to tank exchanges you should really only see major hits under 1500yds - or am I missing something ??
Sparks
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The shell was falling down, maintaining energy.
It hits the softest part of tank the top.
Tank goes boom.
If you dropped a shell, from a plane 6000 yrds, directly above a tank, and hit the tank in the top, what do you think would happen?
Tank goes boom.
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Check this, if you want to see destroyed GVs...German Destroyed AFVs (http://www.battlefield.ru/destroyed/german.html)
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Stop this nonsense.
Hitting something 7000 yards using wwii sights and optics? I seriousy doubt you would be able to see a tank at 7000 yards at all.
Using your mouse as some sort of aiming device?
Penetrating a tank at 7000 yards with a standard AP shot?
HiTech, please stop this.
The gv vs gv battle models needs to be corrected. Aiming and hitting is *apparently* too easy. Gv damage model must be way off if an AP shell can penetrate a tank at 7 000 yards.
And thrawn, the AP round is not coming from a 90 degree angle. If it did, it might penetrate. But now it is coming in from another angle, and it is a very tired shell that hits the thinnly armored roof. However, 98 times out of 100, such a shell will bounce off instead of penetrating.