Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: CyranoAH on June 18, 2002, 08:57:41 AM
-
Incredible, the catenacio (sp?) was not enough for Italy.
It's now clear that defending is not enough to win a World Cup.
WTG Korea! See you at the Quarter-Finals!
Daniel
-
See what 1 dutch man can do with a team
:D
The koreans want to make Hiddink korean
-
Honestly, I admit we miss big occasions, but our adversarys had always 3 men more than us, and dressed in black :mad:
-
See what 1 dutch man can do with a team
So why didnt 11 Dutchmen qualify then?
(http://www.boomspeed.com/swoop/logo_small.jpg)
-
They screwed up on some hookers
-
Makes sense.
(http://www.boomspeed.com/swoop/logo_small.jpg)
-
soccer players are spoiled
can't help it
-
Sorry Naso, can't be on your side on this one, as I've seen many times just the opposite case, with the Men In Black helping italian teams :)
I think your mistake was to say 1-0 was ok. It wasn't... I mean, the moment I switched sides from Italy to Korea (I wanted Italy to qualify, as it fits better the spanish tactics) was when I saw your forwards going to the corner to lose time instead of trying to actually score.
I love football when offence outweighs the defence... and this time it has.
If Korea plays offensively and Spain plays just to keep the score, you bet I will strongly criticise my national team.
Daniel
-
Daniel I never seen the Italian proceed another way :)
That's way I hate watching italian match at the moment they score score they just defend...
and sometime cheat ...
I've yet to find why those Italian player are so fragile ...
-
I agree that Vieri has been a complete amazinhunk all the match, that lot of mistakes have been made, as already said.
But this tournament has been a torture if you look the referee decisions, in almost the 3 last matches.
And we had in this match clearly 2 penalty denied, with even Totti expelled to have been put down.
BTW, maybe I look this with the eyes of the love, but something was wrong, Italy had to go out, by any means.
I must add Korea made 2 nice goals, nothing to say about theyr efforts, just some bitterness (sp?) for the refrees, FIFA have his owners, and Italy is not one of them :rolleyes:
BTW...
GO SPAIN!!! :)
-
As far as I recall this referee was far from a Italian team fan ...
-
... and Straffo...
at least we win some match :D :p
-
There's no doubt the referees are going to favor the Asian team, since FIFA wants to empower the presence of Football in Asia.
That's one of the reasons I wanted Italy to win ;) :D
Anyway, Turkey has proven that even with referees against you, you can beat one of the host countries (not that I liked that match).
If Spain is to beat Korea, we better have a 2 goal advantage for the best part of the match.
Grazie per le "WTG" Naso :)
A rivederci ;)
Daniel
-
There was no french team in this Wolrd Cup ...
I don't know who is spreading this rumour.
But I heard of a EuroMillionaire team ?
-
ROTFL Straffo :)
good point :)
From this point I will be a fan of Spain, Senegal, and... U.S.A. (OMG what I've said?!?! ;) )
-
wrong button, played too mutch with the back button :)
-
Originally posted by Naso
I agree that Vieri has been a complete amazinhunk all the match, that lot of mistakes have been made, as already said.
But this tournament has been a torture if you look the referee decisions, in almost the 3 last matches.
And we had in this match clearly 2 penalty denied, with even Totti expelled to have been put down.
BTW, maybe I look this with the eyes of the love, but something was wrong, Italy had to go out, by any means.
I must add Korea made 2 nice goals, nothing to say about theyr efforts, just some bitterness (sp?) for the refrees, FIFA have his owners, and Italy is not one of them :rolleyes:
BTW...
GO SPAIN!!! :)
Are you claiming there's a worldwide conspiracy against Italy to prevent you from winning in any international sports competition? Hey, I can believe it. After all the Germans and Japanese can't be happy with your dismal showing in WW2, America is pissed at you over the Mafia, and the French hate you because the French hate everyone. That coupled with the fact that Italy has never won a world championship in anything makes your conspiracy theroy believable. I mean, what are the odds of a country the size of Italy sucking so bad at everything?
-
That coupled with the fact that Italy has never won a world championship in anything
Heh, nice troll, but Mister, check your data. :)
Daniel
-
That's the usual uninformed Yank arrogance, elfenwolf. lol
Only 7 nations have won the world cup:
England
Brazil
Argentina
France
Uruguay
Germany
and....
...Italy!
Haven't seen the match yet, but a one goal cushion is never enough in any game, nevermind one with the golden goal rule in operation.
-
Totti didn't deserve a yellow for his dive. It was nothing of the calibre of El Matador's dive against the USA yesterday. I felt like it should have been a case of a non-call on the referee and just let them play on.
Naso I hope you're not referring to the Korean penalty kick in the early going. The Italian defender (actually, TWO Italian defenders) clearly pulled their marks down in the box. The one that was called pulled his man down by the jersey and headed the ball clear. A deserved penalty, IMO.
A failed clearance gave the equalizer in the 88th minute. Very uncharacteristic of an Italian defense. :(
I was torn in this match. I love watching the Azzuri play, but it's hard to cheer against the Koreans with the way their country is backing the team.
IF the USA can beat Germany... I think I would rather play Spain than Korea. The semifinal will be in Seoul, and once again, the stands will be clad in red and the support for Korea unbelievable!
-
Naso and Italian friends:
Le mie scuse per la mia lingua povera. Sono dolente che Italia ha perso a ROK. La fortuna migliore per la sua squadra in 2006.
-
C'mon guys may be we made some mistake, but all those man in black gave us a really hard time.
Blatter 1 Italy 0
GGGOOOOOOOO ENGLAND NOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Lo siento amigos espanoles :D
-
Totti was diving before the korean player even touched him.
That was NOT a penalty, and IMO its yellow card.
I also think the 1st penalty the other day in Eire-Spain match (the one Casillas stopped) wasn't penalty either.
I've heard now a lot of guys from my own country being worried with Korea. Seems they wanted Italy rather than ROK.
IMO if we Spanish guys want Italy before Korea, then we'd better...
1- grow up some historical memory. Same was said in 1994 with Nigeria (better italy than nigeria, Nigeria runs too much and Italy's playing bad soccer) -well, see what happened.
2- If I want italy because I'm worried with Korea, Frankly, I'd stop supporting spain and rather go and start supporting USA or Turkey.
Spain MUST win this match, and not by 1-0. I don't care about cheering crowds. I dont care about running guys. I don't care about "doesn't fit Spanish tactics" . Spain has INFINITELY BETTER PLAYERS THAN KOREA. We MUST win and by quite more than 1-0. Anything else will be a POOR excuse after the EXTREMELY POOR show we gave against Eire (a vastly inferior team player by player).
World Champions grow by winning against big national teams and respecting, but NOT fearing or getting worried by inferior ones. If now we have to fear Korea, I'd rather go and play some snooker. If someone tells me Korea is more difficult than Italy I'd fall off bursted in laughter.
We seem to want to win this World Cup. Nice. World Cups are won by teams worth it. A team like spain SHOULD NEVER BE WORRIED BY KOREA. Must respect it, yes. BUT NOT BE WORRIED BY IT.
REspecting the other team is one thing. Being worried with so poor an adversary is quite another one.
-
"Spain has INFINITELY BETTER PLAYERS THAN KOREA."
I guess thats why we play the game, to determine that...:rolleyes:
-
Originally posted by Ripsnort
"Spain has INFINITELY BETTER PLAYERS THAN KOREA."
I guess thats why we play the game, to determine that...:rolleyes:
1st stage is having the players
2nd stage is actively showing on the field point #1.
If we do, Korea will be swept aside.
If we don't ,then it'll time for some spanish players to feel REALLY ashamed about not being able to win against a clearly inferior team.
We have one of the best teams between the national teams qualified for Quarter Finals. I think Spain has better team than Germany, and comparable with England. Brazil has loads of quality but it's not formed as a true team.
Before us there will be a VASTLY inferior team, qualitatively talking.
Yep, they run a lot. But we can run too.
Yep, they play at home. But we have way better players.
If Korea wins against spain ,then many players will have lots of things to explain. 1st division teams don't lose against 3rd division ones. This is the quality difference I see between this two national teams.
They deserve respect. all national teams do. But we are better. We must SHOW it, yes, but WE ARE BETTER.
Anything not being a clear victory will be sad for spain. Just as sad as Sunday's 1-1 vs Eire.
-
Originally posted by RRAM
If we don't ,then it's time for some spanish players to feel REALLY ashamed about not being able to win against an inferior team.
Ahhh, the Latino Ego...LOL! ;)
-
Qein es mas macho?
Ricardo Montalban o'
Lloyd Bridges?
:D
-
Originally posted by Ripsnort
Ahhh, the Latino Ego...LOL! ;)
Ego?. No. Objective assessment of the situation.
Do The following:
Compare 01/02 teams. Tell me: are LA Lakers better than Chicago Bulls?.
In an hypotetical match, should Lakers win vs Bulls?. By how many points of difference??.
Is saying "Lakers will beat hands down Bulls, other thing will be a complete shame" ,something wrong ,or full of stupid egocentrism?
No, is completely objective assessment of the comparative qualities of both teams. Sure, Saq must show he's a great player and Bryant must do his match too. Bulls can run a lot, but if LA runs as much, then the game will be won by LA Lakers, hands down.
Well, this is a similar situation. Spain is as superior to Korea as Lakers can be compared with Chicago Bulls. Losing is not an option for us. It can happen?, YES SURE IT CAN (Italy's coming back as I write...that is good proof it can happen...)...
but if it happens, spanish team players would better not raise their eyes from the ground when they come back to spain from korea (Unless is something related with complete bad luck...say, we play a perfect match , with great performances by everyone but something out of the usual happens. toejam happens sometimes but I'm talking about a normal loss here, not a catastrophic bad luck issue)
There goes your "ego" theory.
-
On paper, Spain should beat Korea with no problem and with change to spare. But this is the world cup - the greatest sporting tournament in the world - and unpredictability is part of its charm.
-
Determination can overcome skill. Ego theory re-instated. :D
-
Originally posted by Ripsnort
Determination can overcome skill. Ego theory re-instated. :D
Not if the skilled side shows as much determination.
If we lose because the other team shows more will to win than us, if they run more than us, then it will be a shame, because we'll have wasted our potential for not running and believing in our own victory. That was the case against Eire last Sunday. During the last 35 minutes of the 2nd half, eire showed to believe in their own victory, and ran much more than us. They showed an anymic strenght Spain didn't.
We passed on penalties, underservedly. We were lucky. Had we failed to pass, I'd have given that elimination as full of shame for spain.
World Champions are worthy only if they prove to be. Part of that proof is to put as much cojones on the field as anyone else. If we play stronger than anyone, with our quality, we should fear only better teams. Not vastly inferior ones.
Ego theory defeated again :D
-
CORRRIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII IIIINTHIAN LEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEATHER!!!
-
Are you claiming there's a worldwide conspiracy against Italy to prevent you from winning in any international sports competition? Hey, I can believe it. After all the Germans and Japanese can't be happy with your dismal showing in WW2, America is pissed at you over the Mafia, and the French hate you because the French hate everyone. That coupled with the fact that Italy has never won a world championship in anything makes your conspiracy theroy believable. I mean, what are the odds of a country the size of Italy sucking so bad at everything?
Despite the mistake,
Italy has never won a world championship in anything
showing you are not a sportsman ,in the literal sense fo the word;) , cannot find the sense of what you have write, maybe its a joke?:D
Ohh...just doesnt matter anyway :rolleyes:
-
Nib, I'm pretty sure he meant it as a joke.
RRAM, if your teams determination and their skillz can overcome Korea's determination, then they deserve it...otherwise, they are nothing but an inferior team to Korea. ;) (I ain't backing down on this one, I study sports psychology for one semester! ;) )
-
Originally posted by Ripsnort
Nib, its a joke.
RRAM, if your teams determination and their skillz can overcome Korea's determination, then they deserve it...otherwise, they are nothing but an inferior team to Korea. ;) (I ain't backing down on this one, I study sports psychology for one semester! ;) )
Rip, once again, I am talking about a comparative of each team capabilities and skills as football teams.
You won't expect Chicago Bulls to win against LA Lakers. Sure, it can happen, but ,if it happens it will be because Bulls did a great match.....AND..... BECAUSE LA lakers blewed it bigtime.
A team is better or worse than other, you can tell it by looking at its quality as a team and at the quality of its individuals by separate.
then ON THE FIELD, one team can play better or worse and be better or worse for that match. But the quality difference is SO enormous in this case, that if that happens, it will be a shame for Spain.
Thats what I mean.
-
With South Korea's level of dedication (http://worldcup.espnsoccernet.com/story?id=217146&lang=us) it's a wonder they ever lose.
Have the world cup games started yet?
-
Originally posted by RRAM
Rip, once again, I am talking about a comparative of each team capabilities and skills as football teams.
So you are saying that a team that wins because they're more determined isn't the more skilled team because the other team was "physically" more talented? LOL! Okay! Guess you never played sports before.
Sports are 50% psych, and 50% physical skill, son. ;)
-
Originally posted by Ripsnort
So you are saying that a team that wins because they're more determined isn't the more skilled team because the other team was "physically" more talented? LOL! Okay! Guess you never played sports before.
Played 9 years soccer, left it because studies, could've had gone on, tho not in a very important team, I'm afraid :).
and no, that is not what I say. I say that a technically inferior team CAN WIN a technically superior one using more will to win, putting more cojones and effort on the field and giving ALL they have to do it.
I just say that,if the more technically gifted team, puts a similar phisical effort, will to win, and mentalization, they will win 9 out of 10 times.
And what I say NOW is that when a team is SO vastly superior in teh technical department as Spain is vs Korea, if it doens't show that will and doesnt put enough effort on the field to win, they should BE ashamed. Because effort, will to win and "cojones" are something you're supposed to put on the field when you are a professional ...
And MUCH MORE when you wear the colors of your nation and you are defending the proudness of your people and country.
If spain is won because Korea puts more cojones on the field , then those players are NOT worth wearing the national shirt of Spain.
Is more clear that way?
Sports are 50% psych, and 50% physical skill, son. ;)
75% psych, IMO...
Just happens that EVERYONE can put effort, run a lot, and put will to win on the field...but very FEW people are as technically gifted as the spanish players in our team this World Cup.
If you are gifted and you don't put enough effort to exploit it, then YOU'RE A WASTE. Another reason to be ashamed if those players don't win this match.
-
all sports suffer from bad calls from time to time.
The way to keep the refs from making/breaking the game is to not get into a situation that calls for them to interfere. (IMO)
Also, any given team... on any given team.. can beat any other team. We all have bad days .. so do teams. That's why sports are so dynamic. It's never a 'for-sure' thing when two teams meet.. not matter what the talent level.
Besides. Italy sat back on the one goal.. they didn't look hungry enough to me. ... despite all the talent they have.
-
As I already said, Italy made a pityful match against Korea, and the team have his responsability.
The 2 goals of Korea were 2 nice goal (the second was a better one), they made a good match.
But, RAM, look better the ralenty, Totti was hit, and did'nt deserve the yellow card.
I never said the Korean's penalty was not true, it was, was a perfect penalty, no discussion.
But the offside of the second goal was inesistant, and is the goal number 4 (or 5?) that a referee stole to us in this championship.
Remember how many times the referee called on Italy supposed fault, and ignored the Korea ones (remember the kick in the head of Maldini? and the punch to Di Livio?)?
Finally, the referee was from ecuador, a team that we just eliminated from the cup.
Not a conspiracy, but for sure a bad choise of the professional refrees, and maybe a general unfriendly for the team (or maybe the nation, as this board show sometime ;) ).
As for professionality, Turkey asked for Collina to be the refree, because they know is one of the best, and I think every squad have to pray to have a Collina (or equivalent) to be the refree, and not the "once in the life, rookie, and stupid" type we had in our matches.
-
How does one confirm who is better in technique by how much?
Do they have a 'stats screen' like a computer game where the player attributes are marked like "tackle skills: 80 / shooting: 70 / dribble: 90 ... " ??
.....
It's kind of strange to think that HAVING BEEN one of the best teams of all time automatically justifies the assumption that they WILL BE always a better team.
France dropped out, Portugal was an upset, Sweden went back, Italy got hurt, Argentina collapsed. I find it hard to believe the reason behind these 'upsets' were because 115 players of these five super powers were all "undetermined", "weak mineded" or due to "unfair advantages".
Maybe a simpler answer to 'why' these upsets happened would be the guys they played against were actually better, or at least equal.
After all, there isn't any exclusive genetic code which runs in only certain countries so they play football better. Four years is not a long time, no doubt, but maybe it was enough for the Korean team to train themselves upto a level where they might actually be a formiddable opponent against the European teams. Korea faced France and England in trial runs prior to the World cup, played against Portugal in the knock-out phase, and also fought Italy in the main tournament. They lost 3-2 against France, tied 1-1 against England, won 1-0 against Portugal and won 2-1 against Italy. That's four formiddable teams they faced which ranks out within top 15 countries in the FIFA.
Who knows?
Maybe Korea is actually better than Portugal and Italy? At least in some technical areas?
ps) 'determination' is part of player skill. The mind and the body are not seperate beings. You can't be just good in skill and bad in mind. If your mind is screwed up, your body will follow. If some country plays with a crappy mind, no matter how much skill they are CAPABLE of, their current level of skill would suck. Human factors are not like simulation games with pre-set variables that never change, you know.
In the end, 'skill levels' do not follow objective rankings. Objective rankings and evaluations are simply a little tool which is there to help compare, evaluate, and analyze. Numbers do not make realities.
-
Originally posted by Naso
But, RAM, look better the ralenty, Totti was hit, and did'nt deserve the yellow card.
Naso, Totti was diving WAY before the Korean player even touched him. It was for me a clear dive into the penalty area in the extra time of a World Cup Eight finals.
It was not penalty, and it was a dive (there's nothing making him fall in the first stance, nothing touches him until he's already diving) so it was yellow card.
BTW I simply love how Totti plays. Is one of my favorite players. BUt yesterday he dived. That's a fact ,at least for me.
But the offside of the second goal was inesistant, and is the goal number 4 (or 5?) that a referee stole to us in this championship.
Naso...the other day in the Spain - Ireland match, we got very questionable offsides ourselfs. At least two were very very clear chances for Spain, and one of Morientes was even more clear than Tommasi's.
The other day we got 2 penalties in our box. Last one was clear as a sunny day, but first one WAS NOT Penalty. Was far from it.
When match ended, we were talking about how bad spain had played last 35 minutes. About the errors made by Camacho. About how we almost lost a match we should have won. About the luck we have in having Casillas. About Spain HAVING to change attitude if we want to win a world cup. About how sad would've had to return home after having lost a match we had already won.
Very little of the talk was directed at Frisk, the swedish referee. VERY little. And it had been ESSENTIAL in the match. BASSIC for the IRish recovering their confidence in themselfs. THe guy did an HORRIBLE work even while he almost got us killed.
Why?. Because we SHOULD be able to win EVEN with those errors, and Eire is much a better team than Korea. A team which scores 3 goals doesn't care about what the referee says or does. If Italy had stayed with the ball after scoring the first goal, and had showed will to WIN by more than one goal, then now you would be in semifinals.
Yep, you can say you got unlucky, and I will agree with it. Vieri missed 2m away from goal line. Gattusso Had a very very clear chance too (heh, but HE IS GATTUSO...had he been Del Piero you think he'd have missed?).
Blame your players for their innacuracy. Blame your coach for his incompetence. Blame Panucci for his error. Blame Gattusso for not scoring. Blame bad luck, maybe.
But sorry, blaming the referee on what yesterday happened is to show a very low autocritic level. Frankly said, you scored one goal and got happy with it and never really wanted to score a second...and you payed for it. Italy has been living out of that attitude for ages...sooner or later something like this was going to happen.
In football ambition usually equals to victory. you showed none yesterday. THats why you were left out.
Originally posted by Kewassa:
How does one confirm who is better in technique by how much?
Well, lets say I'm not sure (which is not the case)...tell me , how do you know that LA Lakers is better than, say, Denver?.
Apply that same mechanic to football.
That is how you confirm who's better in technique, and by how much.
-
Originally posted by RRAM
That was NOT a penalty, and IMO its yellow card.
I also think the 1st penalty the other day in Eire-Spain match (the one Casillas stopped) wasn't penalty either.
I agree RAM, Duff trailed his leg, however the defender should have seen it coming, Duff was never gonna score from there. Totti dived too, and was rightly Yellow carded.
Somewhere in this thread you also mention some "questionable" offside decisions in the spain/ireland game. There I disagree with you, look at them again, every one was spot on, actually the officials in the spain ireland game were the best i've seen all tournament, except for irelands first penalty. At the time of course I wasn't complaining, but you cant really blame the ref, it had to have looked pretty clear cut from his position.
IMHO Italy felt they had the right to win, as in some respects did Spain. That was Italy's undoing and very nearly Spains. Just look at irelands world cup progress to see how the 1-0 lead can backfire.
Game1: Cameroon 1 - Ireland 0 cameroon defend let Ireland play, result 1-1 and cameroon can consider themselves lucky.
Game2: Germany 1 - Ireland 0 again Germany sat back under the illusion that they could stop us scoring, wrong again.
Game 3: Ireland 3 - Saudi Arabia 0, Easy win for Ireland, however if we sat on 1-nil I would not be surprised to have given away the draw and a place in the last 16.
Second Round: Spain 1-Ireland 0. The rest is history. Italy did exactly the same, and korea did to them exactly what ireland should have (and deserved to) done to spain.
This world cup is littered with examples that show sitting on 1-0 doesnt work against teams with nothing else to lose.
Originally posted by RRAM
Anything else will be a POOR excuse after the EXTREMELY POOR show we gave against Eire (a vastly inferior team player by player).
There again I disagree RAM. Yes, on paper Spains players may outvalue the Irish. But football is not played opn paper. On Sunday Irelands players had more desire, more willingness, they were first to most things. By the end of the game Spain were very much on the back foot and not playing like a team with superior players. International football is very different to club football in that some great international players are not necessarily the best club players, and vice versa. We qualified out of a group that included Portugal and Holland, holland aren't at this world cup because they under-rated Ireland. The european championship is coming up and again Ireland will be considered a 'long outside' bet. Thats why I am smiling because again many will get a rude awakening. And I am looking forward to it.
Good luck to Spain, USA, Korea, and England.
IMHO this is going to be Englands year.
Gremlin.
-
>>>>>>ALSO SPRACH BLATTER<<<<<<<<<
FIFA president Sepp Blatter has launched a strong condemnation of refereeing at the World Cup, saying Italy had been the main victims on the way to their shock quarter-final elimination
The head of soccer's ruling body also told Italian sports daily La Gazzetta dello Sport that he would demand changes in the way referees were selected in future, with the emphasis on ability rather than nationality
'The (referees) have been quite good, but the (linesmen) have been a disaster, especially when it comes to offside...they haven't even realised that it is better to award an offside goal than to disallow a good goal.'
The team had five goals controversially disallowed during their four matches and also had striker Francesco Totti sent off in the South Korea game for allegedly diving in the penalty area - a decision that Blatter condemned.
'Sadly, and I have suffered greatly because of it, there have been exceptional circumstances and coincidences that saw many errors consecutively made against the same team, Italy,' he said.
'Totti's sending off against Korea was neither a penalty nor a dive. A referee with a feeling (for the game) would not have shown him the card, bearing in mind the same player had already been booked.'
AND TO BE HONEST:
But while accepting that Italy had been unlucky to be knocked out, he added: 'Italy's elimination is not only down to referees and linesmen who made human not premeditated errors...Italy made mistakes both in defence and in attack.
FAIR ENOUGH
:rolleyes: