Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Tuborg on June 18, 2002, 09:00:04 AM
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You might find this interesting. It reminds us all that we are playing a fun but rather silly game out there, thank heaven for that!
Broadband is recommended otherwise you can download the mpg file (23MB). I will leave it on the server for 10 days.
http://81.19.238.131/demo/
Cheers
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What really struck the eye there was the need for high-speed slashing attacks on the buffs.. Who on earth would dream of making a direct 6 attack on a buff formation, right?
Also in the P51 snip, wasn't that a HO attack caught on film?
;)
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Who on earth would dream of making a direct 6 attack on a buff formation, right?
Hmmm watch the video again...... With your eyes open this time, there are indeed, several direct 6 OC atacks against single bombers and formations. I have the whole hour of this footage on VHS and there are other direct attacks from the rear.
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Lol Grun, didn't you spot the sarcasm?
8 out of 10 of those guncams were 6 attacks. That's what I meant.
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wonder why all tail guners in formation dont shot down the Lw plane are they all dead ? or sleep or just aim in real life is diferent from Rambo stile snipering
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Yeah- but in how many of those direct 6 attacks are any of the guns firing?
None that I've seen, I'm willing to bet the bombers that did fire back meant that gun camera wasn't getting back to base.
-SW
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Maybe because the icons in those real life guncams were porked and for some strange they are not displayed?
Westy
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Again I have the whole hour of this film on VHS and I guess that I think they must must have just happend upon hordes of B17s and B24s that simply had no defensive guns - how nice of the allies to assist the LW in the creation of this training film. :rolleyes:
And its not just tail guns, imagine flying so close over one of AH B17 right wings like in that video.....
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My opinnion still is that if AH hit sprites were reduced to dust and particles falling off the hit spot, gunnery would be a lot more realistic.
Right now you can hit with .303 and get a big flash to report a hit from long distance..
If you didn't see the flashes, figuring out the right lead would be a lot more difficult.
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I've seen tons of gun camera from the LW Grunherz, this isn't the first glimpse I've gotten... and I rarely, if ever, see the gunners firing back when they get in that close.
Chances are, those bombers have already been crippled or damaged leaving many crew members on board fighting fires, assisting wounded, or simply trying to get away from those 20mm and 30mm volleyballs being lobbed at them.
The reason buffs are so l33t in AH is because there is no fear, your crew members don't tend to the wounded (ala B17II, where certain stations will be unmanned after fighters have already slashed through the formation and wounded several people)... fact is, the guns ain't firing.. if they were, do you honestly think those Fws would of lived getting in that close?
-SW
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It wouldn't be very smart to leave your gunning position to assist a crewmate.. This would lead to the destruction of the whole plane as nobody is shooting back.
There were tracers coming in from the buffs too, at least I thought I saw some flash in front of the cam.
The 190A8 was armoured to withstand most hits from front, might be part of the reason why they did the 6-attack. Other thing is that probably in real life the gunners were very vulnerable and needed only a few rounds to stop shooting back. This is something I've noticed in AH - gunners are extremely hard to kill. They mainly die from direct hispano hits, .303 or .50 does nothing to them unless they get hit REAL hard.
Only time I can recall .50 killing a gunner on my buff was when I got strafed by 3 jugs in a row. Quickly after that the whole tail droped off naturally.
Another thing that surprises me is the stories about russian bombers.. The fighter pilots have said that the bombers practically never made any evasive movements (a la rudder in AH) but flied nicely in formation instead right up to the moment they were shot down. The fighters went in so close (after disabling the tail and top gunners) that the plane was bouncing from the propwash of the buff (another thing that isn't modeled in AH.)
I say make gunners more vulnerable, buffs harder to damage. From the looks of those films the fighters used quite a bit ammo to drop a single buff. Interesting note was the 110G2 which apparently had schrage musik installation (bomber got hit while passing it from below.)
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cc MrRipley, a 20mm lobbed into a gunning station would kill, or atleast wound, the occupant(s).
The only flashes I saw coming off the B17s were from cannon shells impacting.
Leaving the station may not be smart, but guys did it.
Ever noticed how the bombers that the Fws got really close to were seperated from the formation? They weren't seperated because they wanted to take on the whole LuftWaffe Duke Nukem style.
-SW
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these guys wouldent last 5 sec agains a aces high buff lol.
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yes excellnt footage if you can say wacthingf men die..:(
But I also have the best video out of extensive cloeelctuion is called..
No Easy Days series.....Gun Camera Footage
Absouluty Brutal....There is even sound in it..And you can hear the cannons going ..then you can hear all cannosns kikn in..Shootn down big American bomers..In that video colllection..You can defintyl see return fire from buffs..Tho I think alot of gunners were wounded so after a few sprays..The buff is pretty defensles....My heart dropped wacthing these Ftrs just chew on the bak of theses Buffs....
As a fellow pilot in real life..I still cannot imagine the thoughts going thru the heads of those pilots as 20-30 mill shells go through you..
God Bless them and there families...
Love BiGB
xoxo
BGBMAW 1st Marine Air Wing
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Did you guys notice how the P47s self-sealing fuel tanks worked? You see flames shooting out of the left wing root of the P47, then the flames extinguish and you see fuel spraying out, then finally the fuel stops leaking out.
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i noticed on the one where the bf110 gets up close and personal on the b17 there were no guns shooting back on that one my guess was that they were dead or wounded.
and those poor chaps on the b17 with both its wings on fire gotta hope every one got out ok on that one ok.
yup the p47 one was quite interesting with the self seal fuel tanks.
and the p38 one was good too good wingsmanship assuming that is the wing man making a 3 o'clock attack while the other is diving in from a 5 o'clock kinda hard to tell but i think it is.
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One thing I noticed was the ruggedness of the buffs. Only saw one AH-like catastrophic failure, the rest of the time the buffs took the gunfire and kept on flying. Just another thing to think about when you attack an AH B-17 and it keeps on flying. The dead 6 attacks I had seen before, or ones just like them. What makes attacking buffs in AH so deadly is the all-guns-slaved-to-one-station feature. You don't just face a pair of MG's, you face every gun that can fire at you. That one feature makes all the difference in the world IMO.
Not to cause a flame, but those clips also kinda shoot the uber LW cannon myths to pieces, no pun intended. The clips of the 110-G2 hanging in there and pouring fire into the B-17 and the old buff kept right on chugging along............ to Boeing designers! That is one TOUGH plane!
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"Did you guys notice how the P47s self-sealing fuel tanks worked? "
Nice idea, but not quite. The P-47's tanks was in the fuselage, not wings. That hit, it's most likely hydraulic oil and it goes out as the hydraulics system runs out.
Daff
Edited for faff's made after a 15 hour workday:)
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Originally posted by Daff
The P-47's wing was in the fuselage, not wings.
Daff
I had to read that three times before I realized you meant the fuel tanks :D
MiG
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That P-47 shot was very strange in my mind. As I watched it again and again, could not help but to wonder what the FW pilot was doing or thinking. Why did he stall or lag so long. When he finally did hit the jug, why didnt he persist on. No ammo, low ammo? Was he drained from pulling Gs or did he have a problem with killing somebody that day? That jug could have rolled, split S or simply nosed down but instead he choose to turn turn turn. Then he did get hit but didnt maneuver. Did he live? The video stopped. Either he went down in a bad way after that or he went home limping, I'll never know.
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Did you noticed all thos wings ripped off by those 20mm shells?:mad:
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thx for the video, I have alot of it on VHS but didn't have the P-47 clip.
THX!
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That was very good. I downloaded the mpg file.
About the 110g2 sitting on the back of the bomber, most of the gunners were probably dead or wounded. Did you notice him targetting the ball turret? No way anyone survived that. After that he goes for the engines. I wonder how many in those clips actually made it back, if any.
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The link isnt working for me :/
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Isnt working for me either.
Could u plz plz fix it?
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Think it was the second last footage, Fw 190 vs. P-51, where the pursuer appears to spin out of control while trying to split-S or did he just lose the target and rolls kind of funny to reaccuire it?
How many pictures per second did the camera take and at which rate were those displayed?
// fats
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Ooops, server was out of order for an hour or so. Should be runing again.
Btw, what realy is interesting, is the poor judgement of most of the pilots when it comes to estimate the correct distance. Almost everybody, including the aces, are far of the real figures. 2/3 of the film, which i didnt put on, shows a lot of dweebs fireing at up to 4k (12ooo yards). The big mantra of the Luftwaffe these days was (besides assembling in huge formation) get realy realy close to the Buffs, before opening up.
Another thing is, the 110G2 in the long shot propably belongs to the famous ZG76, which i believe was quite succesfull against the bombers spring 44 in the southern region (notice the alpes). But a few weeks later half of the group got killed when bounced by escortfighters, so the entire group was withdrawn out of action.
As far as i can see the 110G2 is fireing with 2 cannons, so i dont know where this AH arment setup with 4x20mm and 2x30mm comes from. My guess is that this was only used on the nightfighters.
Cheers
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Wow, P-47 is very tuff.
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Didn't read all posts, too many.
How ever, Swulfe, yes, gunners got hit easily (gunners hardly ever get hit in AH) in real life, they had no armor and was easy to get a AP shell through much of a B17's or B24's body.
But LW, specially Sturmbocks (190 A8/R8, had extra armor, not modelled in AH AFAIK, and the 30mm guns). They flew in in V formation after the B17, going the whole way from 1000 yards to 100-200 yards where they opened up. A formation of 9 Sturmbocks would wreck havoc (Allied fighters tock their toll when they arived) amongst the bombers without much loss to them selfs, possibly 1 or 2 190's shot down at the most during a normal attack on several hundred Buffs. Of course not all buffs were in range to shoot at them.
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Just a thing after seeing teh film again, seen it before but... check the film where the LW attacks the formatins (you see more then just the B17 being attacked). You don't see any gunners firing their either, from any of the B17's. It could very well be that it's very hard to spot on a film like this, a small muzzle flash from a 50 cal is FAR harder to spot then a 20mm or 30mm explosion.
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Great film! Are there anymore?
I'ld really like it if AH models the little smoke cloud that appears if a round hits a plane.
What a horrible imagination if ur a gunner sitting at the rear and watching these Sturmböcke incoming. I would toejam my pants in this situation (BTW I toejam my pants if Wotan gives me a check 6 to say "hello").
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IMO it would be a big improvement on gunnery if we got rid of hit sprites and replaced them with debree and explosion puffs.
This would make .50 gunnery a lot harder since you can't reliably tell when you got a hit on the enemy unless you get close enough to witness the debree fall off the plane.
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Originally posted by fats
Think it was the second last footage, Fw 190 vs. P-51, where the pursuer appears to spin out of control while trying to split-S or did he just lose the target and rolls kind of funny to reaccuire it?
How many pictures per second did the camera take and at which rate were those displayed?
// fats
Also surprised here, very strange. But the HO ping should be the end for the pony.
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What almost all people forget when talking about buff gunners, they forget the amoured glas windows they had.
But an amoured glas window has one big disadvantage. One hit will make it almost impossible to look through.
I once took a look into an LW amoured glas test. There they tested amoured glas from almost any allied plane.
They shot 7,9 mm rounds at them.
And the resulting damage almost always lead to an incredible reduction in visibility.
Now imagine you are in the tail turret and just one damned round strikes your amoured glas, after than you are practicly blind for any gunning purpose.
Also gunners seem to have been very vulnerable to fire, Willy Reschke who flew the FW190 Sturmbock always attacked from dead 6, his first shot with MGs only, would always go for the tail gunner, than he would procede to pepper the inboard engines and fuel tanks with heavy cannon rounds.
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Take a look here too:
http://www.cebudanderson.com/images/airbat2.rm (http://www.cebudanderson.com/images/airbat2.rm)
http://www.cebudanderson.com/budguncamerafilm.wmv (http://www.cebudanderson.com/budguncamerafilm.wmv)
http://www.web-birds.com/8th/339/gun/339-01.mpg (http://www.web-birds.com/8th/339/gun/339-01.mpg)
Maybe i'll find more later
BTW The explosions look very similar to the hit sprites in AH.
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one of the b17 attacked droppped his gear. do you thing he was trying to surrender(a bit late in my opinion) or that his hydraulics were badly shot up.
Also, the thud pilot wasn't very smart in engaging in a prolonged turning match with that 190.
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as for hit sprites, i read somewhere that the ordnance had phosphorus or something in the nose in order to make flashes when it hit.
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Does anyone know what speed the film is played back at? Or what speed the gun cameras filmed at?
It looks like all these shots are in slow motion. If the gun cams are high speed cameras (filming at 60-90fps) when you play them back in a projector at 24fps you'll see it at 1/2 to 1/3 of real speed.
If thats the case, then these prolonged 15-20 second chases would only be 3-5 second snap shots in real life.
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I looked into that a few years ago and the cameras were pretty much standard, 24 fps, 8 mm cameras, with a 35mm lens.
Daff
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Most gun camera fotage I've seen are slow motion, half speed or more.
That being from LW fighters though, possible that US and Brittish had it different.
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Correct the b-17 dropped its gear look closer at the footage. the wing root was shot out and disabled the hydraulics, the ball turret falls dead(points directly down) and later the gear drops
after more hydraulic pressure leaves the system.
I have seen it referred to many times that this was a primary target of the LW. In my opinion this pilot had a huge set of nuts to stay so close soo long he also knew what he was doing:D Nothin says lovin like 8 .50's in yer oven
[/COLOR]
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Originally posted by Duedel
BTW The explosions look very similar to the hit sprites in AH.
Duedel, I think so too.
But I hope that HTC will add small fragments when guns hit plane. :)
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Anyone noticed no 109s in those films ?
By watching the 190 it flet exactly as in AH. I could just predict the stalls when he tried to follow enemies at those alts. Exactly as in this game.
Noticed how 190 could not follow Jug in sustained turn. It seems that he then accelerated closer to corner speed and covered the angles lost and even pulled lead for a shot. Nice technique.
the 190A-7 vs Liberator at the beginning of the movie is the best IMO. A true expert at work.
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Originally posted by MrRiplEy[H]
My opinnion still is that if AH hit sprites were reduced to dust and particles falling off the hit spot, gunnery would be a lot more realistic.
sounds interesting, a little cloud of dust and maybe a particle or two would strengthen the realism factor a bit, rather than the same flash sprite for every hit....maybe every other hit is a particle and/or smoke-dust cloud, with a few flashes alternating in or out.
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Is 190 shooting R4/M rockets at footage 15 "F190 A8 vs B17" ???
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what's up with the spray and pray ? :)
The last clip 109 vs DC3, talk about a dweeb !!! That was the instruction how NOT to do it, i'd hope :D
Seriously now, i think all that this movie proves is that either:
a) we're far more experianced then those who filmed it, in terms of shooting, assuming that virual and real can be equated here
b) it was far harder to control the plane that it is in AH.
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Il2 has some interesting effects. Get directly behind a plane and it is harder to keep it steady. could be me tho ;).
We are dweebs who got to learn from our mistakes. They didn't have that luxury.
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fd ski,
Think it was Anton Hackl who said at '44 they estimated it required two Fw 190's ammo load to bring down a bomber with the avg. LW pilot doing the shooting.
It's been a while since I saw the quote, but it was something really high compared with the hit percentages people get in the games. My point is people are way better marksmen in the games.
More I think about it, if you put someone with week's flying experience to shoot at things, he is likely to be shooting at 2% or less... even in games like AH.
// fats
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And then remove the icons fats and it will get even lower.
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This film has floating around for years. There was a recent discussion on agw about this.
As for the planes being hard to control. Fly a 190 above 22k in ah. In Big Week, flying a 190a8 at 27k was all about positioning. There was no turning at that alt. If you werent light on the controls you would have never lined up a shot. In real life the attacker had to deal with prop wash, the cold and fear of death.
I agree with hristo
the 190A-7 vs Liberator at the beginning of the movie is the best IMO. A true expert at work.
But the a8 vrs laGG5 is my favorite..........
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LW gun cameras were also 24fps. If it's slo-mo, it's either done in the telecine or post.
Daff
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Hristo, i doubt that the FW190 wasn't able to follow the Jug, he just had to go to lag pursuit to see his target.
Remember this:
The gun camera is placed in the wing, it has the same view angle up and down, while the poor pilot has that engine in front of his cockpit. And to kill the Jug the FW190 guy had to see it. That why i think the guy stayed so long in pure and lag pursuit. A few times he went to lead and took a short burst, just to switch back to lag to see if his target is still there.
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The DB-3 in the last clip was a real torch compared to the liberators and B17s. One burst in the right engine and the whole wing caught fire. Just like in the books!
Great video, some of the clips I hadn't seen before, thanks!
Camo