Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Tumor on June 19, 2002, 12:54:00 AM
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http://www.msnbc.com/news/677951.asp#BODY
Isreal should have started this a long time ago.
" The violence prompted the United States to delay the unveiling of a peace proposal that is expected to set the stage for the creation of a Palestinian state"
LOL!!!... I don't think the state thing is gonna happen for awhile.
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i think thats a typo.
the transcript read 'state' originally, then somebody crossed 'state' out and penned 'crater' in the margin.
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As much as I would like to see peace and prosperity for the people of the region, I doubt it will happen as long as children are blowing up other children.
Israel dosnt have many choices do they.
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Heard yesterday when you go by percentage of population, a typical attack in Israel that kills say 20 to 30 woman & children, in the United States would be equivalent to an attack that killed between 500 to 600 woman and children. Can you imagine what we'd do to a terrorist country, which killed 500 innocents a pop say twice a week?
I applaud Israel's restraint
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Isreal has a lot of choices. first, they could pull back their national borders, and build a REAL tall wall around their country.
of course, they don't wanna do that. they want palistinians to be able come into isreal to do the cooking and cleaning. y'know, the scut work.
i means, that's all little brown people are good for, right?
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Originally posted by KG45
Isreal has a lot of choices. first, they could pull back their national borders, and build a REAL tall wall around their country.
of course, they don't wanna do that. they want palistinians to be able come into isreal to do the cooking and cleaning. y'know, the scut work.
i means, that's all little brown people are good for, right?
No they are for murdering Jews....
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I bet if they continue to blow up buses full of woman & children, they will get real good at greasing tanks treads also ...
Sorry, no sympathy or respect for a country, its leaders and it seems its ppl which condones suicide bombers, hailing them as national heroes :rolleyes:
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http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,55628,00.html
Tuesday, June 18, 2002
JERUSALEM — Here is a glance at the 70 Palestinian bombing attacks that have killed 242 Israelis since the current violence erupted in September 2000:
Oct. 26, 2000: Israeli outpost in Gaza — no Israelis killed.
Dec. 22, 2000: Restaurant in Jordan River Valley — no Israelis killed.
Jan. 1, 2001: Netanya — no Israelis killed, 60 injured.
March 1, 2001: One Israeli killed in taxi near Mei Ami.
March 4, 2001: Three Israelis killed in Netanya.
March 27, 2001: Jerusalem's French Hill neighborhood — no Israelis killed.
March 28, 2001: Gas station near Sdeh Hemed — two Israelis killed.
April 22, 2001: Kfar Saba — one Israeli killed.
April 29, 2001: Car near Israeli bus outside Nablus — no Israelis killed.
May 18, 2001: Netanya shopping mall — five Israelis killed.
May 25, 2001: Truck at Carni Junction in Gaza Strip — no Israelis killed.
June 1, 2001: Dolphinarium nightclub in Tel Aviv — 21 Israelis killed.
June 22, 2001: Jeep at Dugit in Gaza Strip — two Israelis killed.
July 9, 2001: Car near Kissufim Junction — no Israelis killed.
July 16, 2001: Binyamina train station — two Israelis killed.
Aug. 8, 2001: Military checkpoint in Jordan Valley — no Israelis killed.
Aug. 9, 2001: Sbarro pizzeria in Jerusalem — 15 Israelis killed.
Aug. 12, 2001: Kiryat Motzkin — no Israelis killed, 21 injured.
Sept. 4, 2001: Haneviim Street in Jerusalem — no Israelis killed.
Sept. 9, 2001: Nahariya train station — three Israelis killed.
Sept. 9, 2001: Car at Beit Lid Junction — no Israelis killed.
Oct. 7, 2001: Near Kibbutz Shluhot — one Israeli killed.
Oct. 17, 2001: Nahal Oz — no Israelis killed.
Nov. 8, 2001: Baka al-Sharkiyeh, West Bank — no Israelis killed.
Nov. 26, 2001: Erez crossing, Gaza Strip — no Israelis killed.
Nov. 29, 2001: Gan Shmuel bus — three Israelis killed.
Dec. 1, 2001: Double homicide bombing on Ben Yehuda pedestrian mall in Jerusalem — 11 Israelis killed.
Dec. 2, 2001: Bus in Haifa — 15 Israelis killed.
Dec. 5, 2001: King David Street in Jerusalem — no Israelis killed.
Dec. 9, 2001: Haifa — no Israelis killed.
Dec. 12, 2001: Gaza Strip — no Israelis killed.
Jan. 25, 2002: Tel Aviv — no Israelis killed.
Jan. 27, 2002: Female bomber in Jaffa Street in Jerusalem — one Israeli killed.
Jan. 30, 2002: Taibe — no Israelis killed.
Feb. 8, 2002: Mei Ami — no Israelis killed.
Feb. 16, 2002: Karnei Shomron, West Bank — two Israelis killed.
Feb. 18, 2002: Maale Adumim — one Israeli killed.
Feb. 19, 2002: Mehola — no Israelis killed.
Feb. 22, 2002: Efrat supermarket in West Bank — no Israelis killed.
Feb. 27, 2002: Female bomber near Maccabim checkpoint — no Israelis killed.
March 2, 2002: Mea Shearim, Jerusalem — 10 Israelis killed.
March 5, 2002: Bus in Afula — one Israeli killed.
March 7, 2002: Ariel — no Israelis killed.
March 8, 2002: Beit Hanina — no Israelis killed.
March 9, 2002: Moment Cafe in Jerusalem — 11 Israelis killed.
March 14, 2002: Car on a road east of Jerusalem — no Israelis killed.
March 17, 2002: Bus in French Hill in Jerusalem — no Israelis killed.
March 20, 2002: Bus in Kfar Musmus — seven Israelis killed.
March 21, 2002: King George Street in Jerusalem — three Israelis killed.
March 22, 2002: Roadblock near Jenin — no Israelis killed.
March 26, 2002: Near Malha Mall in Jerusalem — no Israelis killed.
March 27, 2002: Hotel in Netanya — 29 Israelis killed.
March 29, 2002: Kiryat Yovel supermarket in Jerusalem — two Israelis killed.
March 30, 2002: Coffee shop in Tel Aviv — one Israeli woman killed.
March 31, 2002: Restaurant in Haifa — 15 Israelis killed.
March 31, 2002: Ambulance station in Efrat, West Bank — no Israelis killed.
April 1, 2002: Car in Jerusalem — one Israeli killed.
April 10, 2002: Bus in Haifa — eight Israelis killed.
April 12, 2002: Female bomber at the market in Jerusalem — six Israelis killed.
April 19, 2002: Kissufim in Gaza Strip — no Israelis killed.
April 20, 2002: Checkpoint near Qalqiliya in West Bank — no Israelis killed.
May 7, 2002: Pool hall in Rishon Letzion — 15 Israelis killed.
May 19, 2002: Market in Netanya — three Israelis killed.
May 20, 2002: Taanakhim Junction — no Israelis killed.
May 22, 2002: Park in Rishon Letzion — two Israelis killed.
May 27, 2002: Ice-cream parlor in Petach Tikvah — two Israelis killed.
June 5, 2002: Bus near Megiddo Junction — 17 Israelis killed.
June 11, 2002: Restaurant in Herzliya — one Israeli killed.
June 17, 2002: Marja — no Israelis killed.
June 18, 2002: Patt Junction in Jerusalem — 19 Israelis killed.
This lists just the dead. No mention of how many have been mamed for life. It's a wonder that Isreal hasn't just started napalming neighborhoods.
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for any people, regime, or religious body that condones the use of their own children as weapons of terrorism. Israeli occupation may be oppressive, but it is certainly no justification for sending one's children to their death in such a horrific way. Let alone the targeting of other women and children.
like i have said before...the palestinians want war...give it to them. Invade and imprison.
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If you recall, the Israelis did a damn fine job of restraining themselves as Saddam rained 1 ton bombs down on their city during the gulf war. They could of easily used a small tactical warhead on Bagdad and stopped that action immediately.
If you look in the dictionary in 2010, under "Restraint", you will see a picture of an Israeli state cabinet member. ;)
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Its all a really old blood feud.
Cease fire, then a bombing that Palestine claims came from a extremist group (yet been linked to repeatedly). If you want a definition of "ineffective", you'll see Mr Arafat's picture in the dictionary for everytime he "condones these attacks".
Build a wall? Why not. Sure.
Will it stop the attacks? No. Slow them down? Maybe.
If the Arabs want to help their Palestinian brothers so much, come n get em.
Meanwhile, Im pretty peeved at all the handouts we, the US Gov't, give these countries in foreign aid. Nope, sorry, not into buying friends. Seems to be a long list of peoples and places we have helped along who only turn around and want to murder us at the first chance they get. (Kuwait, etc etc)
Sometimes, financial isolationism sounds like a good idea to me
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add up the number of non-terrorist palestinians killed over that same time frame.
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Originally posted by Wotan
add up the number of non-terrorist palestinians killed over that same time frame.
Ahh, your talking about the ones cheering on Television when the WTC was destroyed? shreck em, I say.
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I can't believe that we haven't solved this yet. I mean, has anyone sent Koffi Anon this website?
-Sikboy
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Originally posted by Wotan
add up the number of non-terrorist palestinians killed over that same time frame.
who are the "non-terrorist palestines" say over the age of 16?
Is the mother/father of the latest suicide bomber who are praised by their neighbors, paid by their Arab neighbors after thier murderous child has just killed a dozen women & children who's only fault was being at the wrong place at the wrong time? The kids who wear pedants around their necks with pictures of their "heroes", the dead bombers?
just because they aren't on tv with an automatic rifle in their hand, a sheet over their head-burning an American/Israel flag while wishing my family & I dead, does not make them a "non-terrorist" in my playbook..
Can't imagine the ignorance required to tell your teenage child he/she'd make you most proud if they went and blew themselves and pls take as many women and children as possible with them ... then hold a party/collect a blood money check afterwards ... whack jobs.
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Originally posted by Eagler
who are the "non-terrorist palestines" say over the age of 16?
Is the mother/father of the latest suicide bomber who are praised by their neighbors, paid by their Arab neighbors after thier murderous child has just killed a dozen women & children who's only fault was being at the wrong place at the wrong time? The kids who wear pedants around their necks with pictures of their "heroes", the dead bombers?
just because they aren't on tv with an automatic rifle in their hand, a sheet over their head-burning an American/Israel flag while wishing my family & I dead, does not make them a "non-terrorist" in my playbook..
Can't imagine the ignorance required to tell your teenage child he/she'd make you most proud if they went and blew themselves and pls take as many women and children as possible with them ... then hold a party/collect a blood money check afterwards ... whack jobs.
The term evil comes to mind.....
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Might want to add June 19th as well, another one went off today.
http://apnews.excite.com/article/20020619/D7K8BBBG3.html
DmdKanth
Originally posted by Udie
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,55628,00.html
Tuesday, June 18, 2002
JERUSALEM — Here is a glance at the 70 Palestinian bombing attacks that have killed 242 Israelis since the current violence erupted in September 2000:
Oct. 26, 2000: Israeli outpost in Gaza — no Israelis killed.
Dec. 22, 2000: Restaurant in Jordan River Valley — no Israelis killed.
Jan. 1, 2001: Netanya — no Israelis killed, 60 injured.
March 1, 2001: One Israeli killed in taxi near Mei Ami.
March 4, 2001: Three Israelis killed in Netanya.
March 27, 2001: Jerusalem's French Hill neighborhood — no Israelis killed.
March 28, 2001: Gas station near Sdeh Hemed — two Israelis killed.
April 22, 2001: Kfar Saba — one Israeli killed.
April 29, 2001: Car near Israeli bus outside Nablus — no Israelis killed.
May 18, 2001: Netanya shopping mall — five Israelis killed.
May 25, 2001: Truck at Carni Junction in Gaza Strip — no Israelis killed.
June 1, 2001: Dolphinarium nightclub in Tel Aviv — 21 Israelis killed.
June 22, 2001: Jeep at Dugit in Gaza Strip — two Israelis killed.
July 9, 2001: Car near Kissufim Junction — no Israelis killed.
July 16, 2001: Binyamina train station — two Israelis killed.
Aug. 8, 2001: Military checkpoint in Jordan Valley — no Israelis killed.
Aug. 9, 2001: Sbarro pizzeria in Jerusalem — 15 Israelis killed.
Aug. 12, 2001: Kiryat Motzkin — no Israelis killed, 21 injured.
Sept. 4, 2001: Haneviim Street in Jerusalem — no Israelis killed.
Sept. 9, 2001: Nahariya train station — three Israelis killed.
Sept. 9, 2001: Car at Beit Lid Junction — no Israelis killed.
Oct. 7, 2001: Near Kibbutz Shluhot — one Israeli killed.
Oct. 17, 2001: Nahal Oz — no Israelis killed.
Nov. 8, 2001: Baka al-Sharkiyeh, West Bank — no Israelis killed.
Nov. 26, 2001: Erez crossing, Gaza Strip — no Israelis killed.
Nov. 29, 2001: Gan Shmuel bus — three Israelis killed.
Dec. 1, 2001: Double homicide bombing on Ben Yehuda pedestrian mall in Jerusalem — 11 Israelis killed.
Dec. 2, 2001: Bus in Haifa — 15 Israelis killed.
Dec. 5, 2001: King David Street in Jerusalem — no Israelis killed.
Dec. 9, 2001: Haifa — no Israelis killed.
Dec. 12, 2001: Gaza Strip — no Israelis killed.
Jan. 25, 2002: Tel Aviv — no Israelis killed.
Jan. 27, 2002: Female bomber in Jaffa Street in Jerusalem — one Israeli killed.
Jan. 30, 2002: Taibe — no Israelis killed.
Feb. 8, 2002: Mei Ami — no Israelis killed.
Feb. 16, 2002: Karnei Shomron, West Bank — two Israelis killed.
Feb. 18, 2002: Maale Adumim — one Israeli killed.
Feb. 19, 2002: Mehola — no Israelis killed.
Feb. 22, 2002: Efrat supermarket in West Bank — no Israelis killed.
Feb. 27, 2002: Female bomber near Maccabim checkpoint — no Israelis killed.
March 2, 2002: Mea Shearim, Jerusalem — 10 Israelis killed.
March 5, 2002: Bus in Afula — one Israeli killed.
March 7, 2002: Ariel — no Israelis killed.
March 8, 2002: Beit Hanina — no Israelis killed.
March 9, 2002: Moment Cafe in Jerusalem — 11 Israelis killed.
March 14, 2002: Car on a road east of Jerusalem — no Israelis killed.
March 17, 2002: Bus in French Hill in Jerusalem — no Israelis killed.
March 20, 2002: Bus in Kfar Musmus — seven Israelis killed.
March 21, 2002: King George Street in Jerusalem — three Israelis killed.
March 22, 2002: Roadblock near Jenin — no Israelis killed.
March 26, 2002: Near Malha Mall in Jerusalem — no Israelis killed.
March 27, 2002: Hotel in Netanya — 29 Israelis killed.
March 29, 2002: Kiryat Yovel supermarket in Jerusalem — two Israelis killed.
March 30, 2002: Coffee shop in Tel Aviv — one Israeli woman killed.
March 31, 2002: Restaurant in Haifa — 15 Israelis killed.
March 31, 2002: Ambulance station in Efrat, West Bank — no Israelis killed.
April 1, 2002: Car in Jerusalem — one Israeli killed.
April 10, 2002: Bus in Haifa — eight Israelis killed.
April 12, 2002: Female bomber at the market in Jerusalem — six Israelis killed.
April 19, 2002: Kissufim in Gaza Strip — no Israelis killed.
April 20, 2002: Checkpoint near Qalqiliya in West Bank — no Israelis killed.
May 7, 2002: Pool hall in Rishon Letzion — 15 Israelis killed.
May 19, 2002: Market in Netanya — three Israelis killed.
May 20, 2002: Taanakhim Junction — no Israelis killed.
May 22, 2002: Park in Rishon Letzion — two Israelis killed.
May 27, 2002: Ice-cream parlor in Petach Tikvah — two Israelis killed.
June 5, 2002: Bus near Megiddo Junction — 17 Israelis killed.
June 11, 2002: Restaurant in Herzliya — one Israeli killed.
June 17, 2002: Marja — no Israelis killed.
June 18, 2002: Patt Junction in Jerusalem — 19 Israelis killed.
This lists just the dead. No mention of how many have been mamed for life. It's a wonder that Isreal hasn't just started napalming neighborhoods.
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Originally posted by Kanth
Might want to add June 19th as well, another one went off today.
http://apnews.excite.com/article/20020619/D7K8BBBG3.html
DmdKanth
yeah I read that a while ago :( no deaths yet but a few in critical condition :(
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It's pointless to discuss the Mideast. I prefer the fun threads like why Europeans throw like girls or how Udie abuses fish. Oh, BTW Udie, a couple of weeks ago a group of PETA activists disguised as road monitors for a fake triathlon convinced dozens of Texas fishermen the lake was closed. I think it's wonderful a few bass will now have a second chance at life.
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henh.
ok, israel has lost somethin like 250-270 folks to bomb attacks since 2000...
we lost 2500 in one pop.
hmm... the palestinians have lost 2800 + in retaliation attacks.
Aside from the fact that isreal is illegaly occupying a significant portion of palestinan owned lands, has cut off their trade, and denied or destroyed what few assets they have, you gotta ask yourselves just how much has isreal got at stake with it's nuclear arsenal, massive militarty, stable and established economy, vs the average palestinian in a mud hovel with a sack of rocks..
hey, consider this. if some buncha mexicans decided to 'reclaim' their 'ancestral' lands in texas and california with tanks and helicoters, how intent would the 'native' folks who live there now, armed with rifles and handguns be in kickin the 'invading' mexicans back over the 'border'? Palestine would look like a picnic.
the plight of the palestinians may not inspire much concern here in america, and it might be the handy dandy PC correct thing to applaud the israli 'restraint' being displayed at the palistainian 'provocations'.. but in reality, Israel is in violation of treaty in it's illegal occupation of arab owned lands, has reneged on its agreements with the palestinian authority and is in fact getting the same treatment from the 'natives' in those territories we'd give to a bunch lying, theiving treaty busting invading mexicans in this country.
I ain't saying what palestine is doing is right, i abhor the 'terrosit' style reprisal methods they use...but i sure as hell ain't willing to give sharon and his bucha theiving crooks in heli's and tanks carte blanche in palestine.
it's time for the US to insist on a cease fire, declare hammas and the resta the PLO renegade entities illegal and and cut off their press, funding, supplies and install a UN administration of the area with a MANDATE they enforce treatys and accords already in place in the region.
Lets not just shut down the palestinian terrorist organisations, lets shut down Isreal's 'relatiatory incursions'. And lets NOT continue to turn a blind eye towards Israels theiving, lying, duplictious foriegn policy.
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Originally posted by Hangtime
henh.
ok, israel has lost somethin like 250-270 folks to bomb attacks since 2000...
we lost 2500 in one pop.
hmm... the palestinians have lost 2800 + in retaliation attacks.
I question your numbers. Did you get them from the same people who claimed 500 to 600 killed in Jennin? that turned out to be about 50. Israel lost 13 soldiers in one attack where these peacefull non-combatants booby trapped a building and used a 12 year old boy too lure them in. I am with Rip on this shreck em.
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We shouldn't even meddle in the Middle East anymore. Drop support to them all, let them duke it out... whoever is left, is our allies... and we'll get the oil from there for free.
-SW
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wtg Hangtime !
(yes I don't believe I've wrote that ;))
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Originally posted by Hangtime
Lets not just shut down the palestinian terrorist organisations, lets shut down Isreal's 'relatiatory incursions'. And lets NOT continue to turn a blind eye towards Israels theiving, lying, duplictious foriegn policy.
Hang with all due respect, if we shut down the terrorist there will be nor more 'retalitatory incursions'. Isreal has always acted in self defense. Even when "offensive" it's still part of an over all defensive strategy.....
Stop the murderers and the world will demand that Isreal give Palestine it's state.......
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the Pals bring it on themselves
on the eve of Bush announcing the 1st steps for a Pal state, they have back to back murdering bombings of women and children
the Pals are a rouge group of thugs at best. how do you talk with them? who do you talk to when no one is in control. everyone is scared to try to take control as the nutbags would then turn on them ....
Until the pals take control of their own ppl, they won't have a state of anything but what they have today - poverty, run by numerous murdering thug gangs
kill the nutbags, all of them, talk to whoever is left...
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Isreal has always acted in self defense.
With all due respect udie..
horseshit!
If you said 'acted in it's own intrests, exclusive of the repurcussions' I might agree.
As for the 'pals'.. if you think the terrorist groups are acting in the intrest of palestine, you are gravely mistaken. They (the terrorists) WANT unrest and instability.. not peace. The palestinian people are paying with their lives and property for the actions of the terrorists.
The palesteninan people want peace! You think Uncle Habib, on his date plantation figures it's a good trade.. innocent israli lives for his plantation and his childrens future? They have no voice.. all we hear is the terrorists. The israli's are quite happy with the situation.. they get to block the palestinian state, and garner 'support' for their continued piracy, theivery and bloody reprisals.
Target the terrorists.. not the pals. Support a UN Buffer Zone, not Israli reprisals.
kill the nutbags, all of them, talk to whoever is left...
Frankly, I doubt there's anybody there that would want to talk for 'the people'. Identifying youself as a 'pro-palestinian state' in that fediddleed up place would invite the attention of another Mossad backed hit squad. Be better if we insisted on a UN run buffer zone and made damn sure Isreal is kept outta palestinian affairs.
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Originally posted by Hangtime
...Aside from the fact that isreal is illegaly occupying a significant portion of palestinan owned lands...
...not another one.
Please oh please read a book or something before posting stuff you apparently have no knowledge of.
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Did someone steal hangtime's account?
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Originally posted by Hortlund
:rolleyes:
...not another one.
Please oh please read a book or something before posting stuff you apparently have no idea about.
That was the most succinct arguemnet I've ever heard in my life...oh wait a moment, it's not an arguement at all...it's just a BS insult.
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With all due respect hang..
horseshit!
You think the Israelis are happy with the current situation where they don't know if the next bus ride, trip to the mall, dinner out will be their last?
the "peaceful" Pals need to wrestle control of their country away from the thugs, why don't they? They don't want to end up dead by the hand of the nutbag Pals that's why. what does that leave - exactly what the Israelis have been doing with the raids.
like i said, until the Pal thugs are DEAD, they will be no peace as whatever solution would not be good enough for them and their bombings would continue.
If the bombings would stop, the world would force Israel to give them a state - never happen as it is an endless cycle of tit for tat until you eliminate one side or the other. I'll take the side that does not want the US and our way of life wiped off the face of this earth....
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Originally posted by Thrawn
That was the most succinct arguemnet I've ever heard in my life...oh wait a moment, it's not an arguement at all...it's just a BS insult.
Thrawn, feel free to dig through the hundreds of posts I and Nashwan have written on that subject. Start with a thread named "A crash cource in mid east history"
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The New Nazis
Steve Malzberg
Tuesday, June 18, 2002
When I wander into the entrance of Jerusalem, I turn into a suicide warrior, I turn into a suicide warrior, in battle dress, in battle dress, in battle dress. Thank you. – an 8-year-old girl shown on Palestinian TV on a show considered to be equal to our "Sesame Street"
Currently there are 19 dead (I never include the bomber along with his victims) and over 40 wounded. Many are children. The bus was packed with students. That's precisely why it was targeted. The goal of these subhuman monsters is primarily to kill Jews. The Jews of choice are women and children.
Just what exactly is going on here? That's easy. We are all witnessing an attempt by the Arab world governments in general, and the Palestinian Authority in particular, to finish the job that Hitler started. Six million is not enough for these New Nazis; they want the rest to disappear as well.
Let's suppose for a moment that instead of 70 homicide bombings there had been 70 instances of mass kidnappings. For example, instead of seeking out civilian-filled places to blow up, what if the terrorists simply went to these places and forced dozens of women and children into several vehicles and took them away into the West Bank or the Gaza Strip?
Let's suppose that once there, the hostages were hustled into small makeshift gas chambers that were strategically located throughout the civilian populations, similar to the way the bomb factories are distributed there.
Let's suppose that instead of being blown up, these Israeli captives were gassed to death in those small gas chambers. Hundreds of them in 70 different incidents over the course of 21 months. Would we then call these terrorists and those that support them what they really are? Would we hesitate for a moment to call them Nazis?
So what's the difference between gassing these innocent Jews and blowing them up?
The answer is that there is no difference.
The Arab world governments and specifically the Palestinian Authority are raising and supporting the new wave of Nazis. They are out to kill the Jews, and they believe that they will go to heaven for it.
The father of the Nazi who blew up the bus today in Jerusalem told Reuters that he was "very happy that my son was the bomber."
How about the words of this proud mom. Her name is Naima al Obeid. Her 23-year-old son, Mahmoud, was shot dead after killing two Israeli soldiers near the Gaza settlement of Dujit last Saturday. Before he left to go Jew hunting, his mommy made a video with him in which she told him, "G-d willing, you will succeed. May every bullet hit its target, and may G-d give you martyrdom. This is the best day of my life."
Sick, you say? Try this. When she was asked about the killing of Israeli women and children, Mama Nazi replied, "The women and children are also Jews. And I want to tell Jewish mothers: Take your children and run from here because you will never be safe. We believe our sons go to heaven when they are martyred and when your sons die, they go to hell."
There are nine more little Nazis-in-waiting at home with mama.
And then there's Mariam Farhat. Her Nazi son Mohammed broke into a study hall at a nearby Jewish settlement in Gaza back in March. He used grenades and automatic rifles instead of gas, and he killed five Israeli students and wounded 23 before he could be stopped.
Here's what his Nazi mama had to say to the camera: "When I see all the Jews in Palestine killed, that will be enough for me. I wish he will kill as many of them as he can, so they will be scared."
It's really no wonder that these people think this way. Just read, look at or listen to the state-run Arab media and you get a handbook on how to create today's New Nazi.
Saudi TV features a little girl being asked by the interviewer about the Jews. "They are monkeys and apes," she says.
Another Saudi hit shows a man claiming to be a psychiatrist telling the interviewer about the thrill of blowing yourself up. "Counting down – 10, 9, 8, 7, 6, 5, 4, 3, 2 – and when he gets to 1 and pushes the button, that's the height of euphoria."
Saudi newspapers tell the Arab world that Jews use human blood to make pastries.
Palestinian Authority TV isn't any better. In a scene dated Dec.14, 1994, a young Palestinian man is shown repeatedly stabbing a Jewish man in a car stopped in the West Bank
Palestinian TV broadcasts a sermon given at a mosque. "They are all liars. They must all be massacred. They must all be killed. Have no pity for them. Wherever they are, wherever you meet them … kill the Jews!"
Still another sermon on PA TV, as a young child is shown listening intently: "Bless those who put the belt around his waist or his sons and enter deeply in the Jewish community and say Allah is great. As the building collapsed on the heads of the Jews ..."
Then there's the Palestinian Authority TV version of our own "Sesame Street." Here young children are shown getting up in front of other youngsters and performing: "Each and every part of your soul. I have drenched with all my blood, and we shall march as warriors ..."
Another child takes over: "… When I wander into the entrance of Jerusalem, I turn into a suicide warrior, I turn into a suicide warrior, in battle dress, in battle dress, in battle dress."
The child then says, "Thank you," and the teacher shouts, "Bravo! Bravo!" as the students applaud wildly.
Could Hitler have done it any better?
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
That said, how long until Israel is justified in wiping out entire Palestine families of suicide bombers? The bombers don't care about themselves, think they'd care if they knew their little brother, sister, mom, dad. grandma would die within 48hrs after they blew themselves up? Or would they just plan a big reunion in allah land :rolleyes:
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"Allah Land"... I dunno why, but that made me laugh. Has a nice ring to it too. :)
-SW
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Originally posted by AKSWulfe
"Allah Land"... I dunno why, but that made me laugh. Has a nice ring to it too. :)
-SW
Sounds aweful close to "LaLa land" as used in this sentence:
"He's out in LaLa land, not paying attention"
(shrugs)
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I was trying to remember what it sounded like, I knew it was familiar!
-SW
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Arafat reminds me of the kid we all knew in school at one time or another. He would talk tough, act tough, and when he got his butt kicked, he would scream for intervention.
If you want a state, then you should follow the Israel model, declare it and then defend it. If you cannot control you borders, then you are by definition, not a state.
The right of conquest does hold water. Ask any American Indian, or native South American.
Interesting site: http://www.jajz-ed.org.il/100/concepts/index.html
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Please oh please read a book or something before posting stuff you apparently have no idea about.
Yeah Hortland, so sorry for my complete ignorance of history and current affairs. Or should I be sorry because I don't give a toejam about arrogant academia from another millenia... or it's boring stuffed shirt proponents?
So, which kibbutz established outside your country's borders in vilolation of the Camp David Accords is yours?
like i said, until the Pal thugs are DEAD, they will be no peace as whatever solution would not be good enough for them and their bombings would continue.
Eagler.. you and I are saying the same thing... the only diffrence is I see the diffrence between the Palestinan PEOPLE and Palestinian Terrorists. Just like I see the diffrence between israli's and Sharons theiving government.
"the only good indian is a dead indian" went outta style to be replaced by 'the only good jap is a jap thats been dead for 2 years" and now we're off on the PC bit of "the only good palestinian is a dead palestinian."
henh.
Last time i heard damn near all of the WTC terrorists were from saudi arabia. I guess all saudi's are terrorists.
Gent's; I ain't pro-palestinian any more than i'm pro israeli.. I do see a powder keg sittin there, and the longer it goes on, the more risk to the USA there is... as Eagler said, "they brought it on themselves".. both sides.
Fer crissakes, somebody send the UN in, and stop this crap.
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It's funny, I got to Mapquest.com and decide to look at Palestine..I just can't seem to find it..
I can find Mexico sure and simple...but no palestine...
oh wait, I found palestine...
(http://www.palestine-net.com/geography/gifs/palmap.gif)
errr....no....
](http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/maps/is-map.jpg)
That's Israel.
DmdKanth
Originally posted by Hangtime
Palestine would look like a picnic.
I ain't saying what palestine is doing is right, i abhor the 'terrosit' style reprisal methods they use...but i sure as hell ain't willing to give sharon and his bucha theiving crooks in heli's and tanks carte blanche in palestine.
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Originally posted by Hangtime
Yeah Hortland, so sorry for my complete ignorance of history and current affairs. Or should I be sorry because I don't give a toejam about arrogant academia from another millenia... or it's boring stuffed shirt proponents?
[/b]
*bites tounge* Actually I think you should be sorry if you dont give a toejam about history.
So, which kibbutz established outside your country's borders in vilolation of the Camp David Accords is yours?
LOL :D
I'm not Jewish, and I would not move to Israel even if they payed me. I like it fine here in nice cold Sweden thankyouverymuch.
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Hang
All for the UN playing cop as long as not ONE US soldier is posted anywhere near the place
But what happens when the extremists, I think from the Palestine side, while you probably think from both sides, then target the UN "peacekeepers"? I see the UN doing what Israel is doing today, less than 6 months after they are deployed or after the first couple dozen UN soldiers are ambushed by those who do not want peace but want the Jews run out of the land or dead...
Until the people of Palestine get past the , lack of a better term, "Nazi" mentality, generation after generation of crazed muderous thugs/gangs will rule their land and no one will be able to talk with anyone who carries enough weight to change it.
I think there is much truth in Steve Malzberg's article stating the Palestine ppl are just pawns in a new movement you can pin down to a religious movement of Isalm (radicalized for the purpose) and it's conquest to be the world's religion.
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Eagler, I agree.. not ONE US soldier should be in that UN force. We've already done our bit for world security... 100 times over. Besides, putting US Troops in a UN Peacekeeping Force in that location would be tantamount to signing their death warrants.
Lets use Sweedish Troops. The squareheads have been hiding behind their popmous 'neutrality' making a profit from everybody elses wars for far too long. ;)
As far as the 'nazi' label goes, I can point with just as much effacy and conviction at the Israli policy of retribution for the terrorist bombings.
Hortland, I majored in History. I enjoyed it immensely. And if you don't see some of it's more gruesome lessons repeating themselves in the middle east, then yer just another blind stuffed shirt windbag, tootin the PC horn.
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Originally posted by Hangtime
Hortland, I majored in History. I enjoyed it immensely. And if you don't see some of it's more gruesome lessons repeating themselves in the middle east, then yer just another blind stuffed shirt windbag, tootin the PC horn.
LOL
I have been accused of many things Hang...tootin the PC horn is not one of the more common accusations though ;)
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Hortlund PC? Made me chuckle. :)
I almost never post on these ME threads, mainly because I have no real depth of knowledge on the subject. But It seems to me Hang has made a good point regarding the UN. Letting the combatants handle this issue just aint working. The ramifications are such that peace in other regions of the world is held captive by the ME troubles. Time for the rest of the world to say enough is freakin enough!
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There's a good quote from Topol, the Israeli actor (Fiddler on the Roof), in the Israeli newspaper Ha'aretz
He was visiting Netzarim, an Israeli colony in Gaza, to dedicate a memorial to his friend Ze'evi, the assasinated Israeli politician. (Ze'evi was nicknamed Ghandi because of his peace-loving policies, namely ethnically cleanse 4 million Palestinians, whom he called "lice")
The sculptor who made the memorial was there for the unveiling. He looked around Netarim, which houses 50 families and is guarded by a batalion of troops, costing about $10 million a year to maintain.
Uri Lifshitz, whom Topol commissioned to design the Ze'evi memorial and who came along on the visit, asked if his taxes "were paying for all this." Topol quickly defended the settlers. "The Americans are paying," he assured Lifshitz.
The settlers aren't just a burden on American taxpayers, they're a burden on Israel.
The IDF lost two Merkava MBTs around Netzarim, blown up with their crews by Palestinian mines buried in a dirt track. The IDF started driing their tanks along the paved road running around Netzarim, but after a time the settlers complained the tanks were damaging the road, so now they're back on the dirt track and vulnerable to mines again.
And all the time the settlments are expanding and multiplying, taking more land from the Palestinians:
"Tell me, please, what am I supposed to do now?" the local Palestinian leader from the Bethlehem area asked the western diplomat. They were watching as a huge bulldozer dugs its teeth into the land of Beit Sahur, paving another road to bypass the Palestinians for the glory of the Israeli occupation. The road is particularly meant for the residents of Nokdim, the settlement that is home to MK Avigdor Lieberman. "What would you do in my place?" asked the Palestinian, a moderate who is far from being a proponent of violence. "Would you watch from the side as the settlers take your land, or would you shoot at the bulldozer?"
Anyone expecting Palestinians to quit killing settlers, should have a few words with Aziz Amaru, deputy minister for Waqf affairs in Hebron. Amaru has been spending the past several days running back and forth between the downtown wholesale market in the old city of Hebron and the local police station. All he wants is for the Israeli authorities to enforce the law against the settlers who have squatted in the shops of the wholesale market, which is property of the Muslim religious trust. After Baruch Goldstein's 1994 Purim day massacre of praying Muslims in the Tomb of the Patriarchs, Israel ordered the shops of the wholesale market shuttered; since then, the shops, next to the Avraham Avinu Jewish neighborhood, have been closed. A few months ago, Hebron settlers took over one of the buildings and turned four shops into apartments and a kindergarten. In the past few days they've taken over four more shops in an adjacent building. Amaru says the Waqf complied with the suggestion by the police that they weld the doors of the shops shut. Yesterday morning, settlers used force to chase off the welders and the police who were guarding them, and locked up the Waqf officials on the second floor of the building. Palestinian Hebronites are asking themselves if the police would have behaved with the same measure of restraint if it had been Palestinians marching into a Jewish-owned shop. The settlers' behavior, and the equanimity, in the best of cases, of the security forces toward Jewish lawbreakers in the territories, strengthens the hand of those Palestinians who support the armed struggle. Their analysis of the spreading expropriations, closures of land and tree uprootings, is that war against the settlers is a battle for their homes. Even the muezzin is not allowed to call the people to prayers anymore in Hebron. The soldiers explained to the Waqf that the traditional calls, made from the minarets of Hebron for hundreds of years, "disturb the peace." It is becoming ever more reminiscent of the Algerian campaign against the French colonists. Even if someone upstairs decides to stop the suicide bombers on their way to Petah Tikva, there's no chance that any Palestinian leader will condemn a Hebronite who decides to shoot a settler who invades his home.
A recent petition to the High Court of Justice can illuminate why the Palestinians hate the settlers so much. Jerusalem attorney Shlomo Lecker petitioned the court in the name of two residents of the village of Tu'ana, in south Mt. Hebron. He says that the case is typical of the routine of ruthless land grabbing, under full cover of the army and the government - and of the settlers' utter disregard for the law. The story begins in September 2001. A group of settlers began construction of a cement platform on a piece of land bordering farm land owned by Mohammed Mussa Jibrin and Ahmed Mohammed Mohammed. Yosef Adir, a top official in the South Mt. Hebron Regional Council, supervised the construction work. The landowners hurried to the Kiryat Arba police station to file a complaint against the settlers' incursion on their land. "After filing their complaint," writes Lecker in the petition, "one Major Zvika arrived on the scene. He is known to the petitioners as the officer in the civil administration responsible for the area. With him was a civil administration official named Amos. Zvika told the petitioners and their lawyer, Mussa Mahmara, that the construction work was being done without permission. Amos told them he had issued a cease and desist order, but it was impossible to enforce, `because the settlers won't obey the order.' He recommended they go to the High Court of Justice." Over the next two weeks, under the supervision of Adir, ostensibly a government official as a regional council official, the concrete platform was completed and a water tower was established. At the end of September, the landowners contacted Lecker, and asked him to come to the site. "Two kilometers away from the hilltop where the outpost is being built, in an isolated, hilly area," writes Lecker, "I came across a military checkpoint. The checkpoint commander, who identified himself as Major Gilad, showed me an order closing the area, along with a map. On the map, a triangle was drawn around the area the outpost, which was named in the military order as `Avigail Point.' Major Gilad clarified that the regional commander, who signed the order, wanted it closed to prohibit entry/approach to the outpost area." After Lecker protested that settlers were driving by the checkpoint without being stopped by the soldiers, the officer pointed out a sentence in the military order specifying that the order did not cover "authorized" people. Three days later, those "authorized" settlers moved mobile homes to "Avigail Point." A statement by the state prosecutor to the High Court in response to the petition, confirms that the Civil Administration's inspectors did find that two more mobile homes, as well as a shed and an old bus, had been placed at the site. The state says that on February 24, two orders were issued, demanding an end to the construction. But Lecker produced a document proving that as far as the settlers are concerned, the West Bank is the Wild West, and for the Defense Ministry, which is headed by a man who has said that he doesn't regard restraining the settlers as very important, the settler behavior in the territories can go on just the way it has. The document Lecker produced is a letter signed by Major Yossi Shapira, assistant military secretary to the defense minister. It says that a cease and desist order for the construction at the illegal outpost was issued, "and if the settlers do not evacuate the area on their own, the army will evacuate them tomorrow." Shapira's letter is dated October 21, 2001. Apparently it had some influence on a rare High Court's decision, issued three weeks ago, to order the army to enforce the orders the army already issued regarding "Avigail Point" and to prevent any further construction there. Until, of course, the settlers get their authorizations.
All from Ha'aretz an Israeli newspaper.
There is no way this situation can be peaefull. Was ethnic cleansing and colonization ever carried out peacefully?
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There is no way this situation can be peaefull. Was ethnic cleansing and colonization ever carried out peacefully?
Yup. Clear and incontrovertable evidence exists that Isreal persists in establishing settlements on land they don't own... in vilolation of every rule of national and international law, in the face of international accords of which they are signatory to. Pirates. Thieves. Liars and Cheats.
There will never be 'peace' untill those settlements are stopped, removed and the stolen lands are restored to the folks that they were stolen from. Not two thousand years ago.. 2 years ago.
Time we stopped bein Isreal's cheerleader and financier.
Time we started rasing our voices instead to insist the UN do it's job, and we stopped braying 'yea, team' every time an Israli tank flattens another palestinian home.
The Israli propaganda machine is not inexpert, nor is Isreal incompetent or impotent to stop the actions of it's settlers. High time the PC bozo parrot politicans in this country smartened up, grew some balls and stood up to the JDF and said 'tell yer buddies in the ME to lighten up on the palestininan settlement thing and invite the UN in there or Unca Sam's gonna slap the purse closed permanantly."
Never happen of course.. the JDF controlled politicians in this country are carefully selected for lack of testicular fortitude on jewish sensitive issues.
If the UN does not step in, I would expect the people in the region not of israli descent to suffer the same fate as the Indian Nations of the old west..... or worse.
Imagine if Geronimo got his hands on a Nuke..
I just hope when it comes time to pay the piper and the palistinian geronimo gets his bomb, he plants it in isreal, and not NYC.
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High time you sent my country men into a hostile situation you don't want your country men in...wait a minute.
High time the US actually paid it's UN dues. So the UN doesn't have to take money from peace keeping coffers in order to pay it's rent and staff.
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LOL.. as if the region would see any diffrence between canadian and american peacekeeping troops!
"On September 24 2001, the House of Representatives authorized $582 million in back dues owed to the United Nations. This enabled the Bush Administration to pay the U.S. arrears to the U.N. "Meeting our financial obligations to the United Nations will help to ensure that our policy-makers can keep the focus on broad policies that unite the members of the Security Council in the fight against global terrorism," said Rep. Henry Hyde (R-IL) chairman of the House International Relations Committee."
And, just in case you wern't aware, we put a heluva lot more money into UN aid programs and peacekeeping than you guys up there in Canada do.. in fact we are the single largest contributor in the UN, annually investing significantly more into that orginization over it's lifetime in funds, manpower and peace keeping than any other nation on this fediddlein planet.
Oh, BTW; get the fediddlein canadian as well as mosta the other UN dildomats that park anywhere they please around NYC to pay the parking fines they incur and with the proceeds we can rebuild the WTC.
;)
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Thanks for the update...I suck.
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"Apparently it had some influence on a rare High Court's decision, issued three weeks ago, to order the army to enforce the orders the army already issued regarding "Avigail Point" and to prevent any further construction there. Until, of course, the settlers get their authorizations."
doenst this mean that the settlement was stopped?
Isnt this an example of the isrealies policing themselves?
I might be misunderstanding...
Its like the long post a few weeks ago about isreali extremists being arrested by isreali police. The poster intended to prove that the isrealis where as bad as the palistinians...But all he proved is that the isrealis can police their own.
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The jews claim Israel because "God" gave them the land.
The muslims kill the jews in the name of "Allah" and believe they go to paradise.
Like sheep to the slaughter.....all in the name of "God".
"God" is the oldest scam in the book...and religeons are the root of ALL evil.
It's amazing that people can be controlled by such an obvious scam as "God".
Of all of mans inventions "God" is the most destructive.
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- Dr. Ahmad Abu Halabiya, member of the Palestinian Fatwa Council
"Have no mercy on the Jews, no matter where they are, in any country. Wherever you meet them, kill them. Wherever you are, kill those Americans who are like them."
Arafat in a meeting with Arab diplomats in January 1996:
"We the PLO will concentrate all our efforts on splitting Israel psychologically into two camps. Within five years we will have six to seven million Arabs living on the West Bank and in Jerusalem. The PLO plans to eliminate the State of Israel and establish a purely Plastinian State. We will make life unbearable for Jews by psychological warfare and population explosion; Jews won't want to live among Arabs."
Arafat during an October 21,1996 speech at the Dehaishe refugee camp:
"We know only one word:jihad,jihad, jihad.When we stopped the intifada, we did not stop the jihad for the establishment of a Palestinian state whose capital is Jerusalem. And now we are entering the phase of the great jihad prior to the establishment of an independant Palestinian state whose capital is Jerusalem...We are in a conflict with the Zionist movement and the Balfour Decleration and all imperialist activities."
...what he gonna do? Change his (thier) mind(s)?
http://arabterrorism.tripod.com/terrorism5.html <<
Anyone remember this fat pig?
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Almost forgot... nuff said
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"High time the US actually paid it's UN dues"
We have grave yards FULL of dead American service men. Where do we send the corpses.
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Hmmm inneresting link - from The Israeli Information Center for Human Rights in the Occupied Territories
Figures for both sides up to Jan 31 2002 (http://www.btselem.org/English/Statistics/Total_Casualties.asp)
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Whats the current Palestinian population in the West Bank?
Of that large group, how many have actually committed suicide bombings? How many more will?
The continued occupation of the occupied territories by Israeli settlements and troops will only bring more death to both sides.
Punishing the whole for what a fraction do will only increase the pool of those willing to die to revenge what has been done to them. That fraction of suicide bombers will continue to grow because of the result of the Israeli occupation. End the occupation, along with establishing a Palestinian State with a business infrastructure will do more to insuring Israeli security longterm than the current situation. Make no mistake, Israel holds the key to how this will go.
As a US taxpayer, I'd like to see the current money going to Israel reduced to 25% of what it is now. I'd like the remaining 75% of the money spent on helping rebuild a Palestinian State under the direction of the UN. We'd sure make a lot more friends that way. The Palestinians and the rest of the Arab world could no longer claim that we weren't helping the Palestinians.
Remember that innocent people are being killed and maimed from both sides. These casualties include INNOCENT women, men, boys, girls, the elderly, babies also. You all are sick if you can justify innocent human beings be they Israeli or Palestinian being killed. End the occupation.
Remember, do not punish the whole for the fraction.
oops, edited because of a sentence that didn't say what I was trying to say :)
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Originally posted by wsnpr
Whats the current Palestinian population in the West Bank?]
???
Of that large group, how many have actually committed suicide bombings? Of that large group how many more will?
....enough of them.
The continued occupation of the occupied territories by Israeli settlements and troops will only bring more death to both sides.
We'll see eh?
Punishing the whole for what a fraction do will only increase the pool of those willing to die to revenge what has been done to them.
I'd say the majority of peace loving Palestinians should maybe get off thier tulips and do something about the fractional pool.
That fraction of suicide bombers will continue to grow because of the result of the Israeli occupation.
Grow or remain the same...whats the difference?
End the occupation, along with establishing a Palestinian State with a business infrastructure will do more to insuring Israeli security longterm than the current situation.
I believe thats what Isreal will do.. but why should they not hold out until the bombing stops? Why should they negotiate with terrorism? Isreal is seen as folding to terror = more terror elsewhere.
Make no mistake, Israel holds the key to how this will go.
I disagree. Palestine has every opportunity to stop the bombing, negotiate in a civil manner (with U.S. backing at that point) and get thier state. They won't... they won't stop until Isreal is no more and every Jew there is dead or pushed into the sea (ref: Arafat)
As a US taxpayer, I'd like to see the current money going to Israel reduced to 25% of what it is now. I'd like the remaining 75% of the money spent on helping rebuild a Palestinian State under the direction of the UN.
What in the world for? As a U.S. taxpayer I find any monetary managing of U.S. funds done by the U.N. revolting.
We'd sure make a lot more friends that way.
JMHO but we don't need any more friends. We need less enemies
The Palestinians and the rest of the Arab world could no longer claim that we weren't helping the Palestinians.
I find helping the Palestinians in any way until they stop bombing even more revolting... let them rot until then.
Remember that innocent people are being killed and maimed from both sides. These casualties include INNOCENT women, men, boys, girls, the elderly, babies also. You all are sick if you can justify innocent human beings be they Israeli or Palestinian being killed.
Who's justifying killing anyone who's innocent? Better yet.. who's TARGETING those you refer to?
End the occupation.
stop the bombing
Remember, do not punish the whole for the fraction.
stop the bombing
I hope Isreal stands firm. Stop the bombing and stop it for a specific amount of negotiated time. If then they don't take steps for a palestinan state I don't care who dies, bombs or gets killed. But right now, in the here and now... stop the bombing. If the bombing doesn't stop... occupy more land and more land until they don't have to worry about the low-lifes anymore.
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In June a poll taken in the Gaza Strip found that 78% of the population approved of suicide bombings, considerably more than supported peace talks (60%).
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Yep, unless the palestinians actually are given some decent future prospects to look forward to, the suicide bombers everybody is so upset about will keep coming.
Against someone that determined, there is no real defense. And don't delude yourselves, like the Israeli right wingers seem to have a tendency to, that the said palestinians are just "subhuman monsters" (see the article above), motivated by their craving for innocent Jewish blood. These people are desperate, fighting a battle they don't have any real way of winning, with horrendous casualties on their side. No matter what the highly publicized, dreaded suicide bombs reap in dead and maimed, the Merkhavas, M60s and Apaches are way more effective. Just check the link above (in -dead-'s post): around 2000 palestinians versus less than 500 Israelis.
This is how the suicide bombers are made. If your brother, sister, mother etc would be "collaterally damaged" in one of those "surgical strikes" the IDF seem so fond of, combined with no real future prospects of a normal family or at least some economical prosperity, you might start thinking about wearing that belt. And you might not be too choosy whom you target with it. Of course noone can ever excuse the killing of innocent civilians (by either side, btw). The problem is that, in such a conflict, there is no such thing in the mind of the combatants (after all, if the IDF can kill you brother/sister/father why would you spare the relatives of the soldier that pushed the trigger). The religious craze is just the final drop, justifiying an act that otherwise just might be rejected by the last traces of empathy left by the years of hatred and revenge wishes. No imam or mullah could ever convince happy, prosperous young men to dress up in plastic explosive and light that match (there are exceptions to that, notably the guys piloting the planes on 11/9, the Waco guys, the japanese sarin spreading weirdos or any suicide sect for that matter; however, it would never turn into a mass fenomenon, like it is now). This is why you don't see saudis blowing up in Jerusalem.
Of course, exactly the same reasoning applies to the opposite side. Every time a suicide bomber kills some Jewish youngster, there is a chance that kid's brothers/friends will become rather poised against everything of arabic descent/origin, and when they take their turn serving in the IDF, well... Or even worse, it might motivate more Israelis to join the settlers, the main source of this neverending bloodshed.
Anyway, my condoleances to every family touched by this festering conflict. I hope I will live to see the day this will end, and I hope I won't regret seeing it.
Just my .1 oere.
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doenst this mean that the settlement was stopped?
Isnt this an example of the isrealies policing themselves?
No, it means the outpost has been declared illegal. 66 were declared illegal in 2001, and the defence minister promised to remove them immediately. 61 are still there.
Settlements are not removed. Sometimes they are abandoned, but not removed. The only group able to physically remoe them are the IDF, and whilst they have proved very capable at remoing Palestinians, they always back down in the face of settlers.
Read the bit about the shops in Hebron again. They are priae property, yet they are being taken over, and there is nothing the Arabs can do about it. Even with police protection, they were driven off. Can you imagine the police being driven off by Arabs?
I hope Isreal stands firm. Stop the bombing and stop it for a specific amount of negotiated time. If then they don't take steps for a palestinan state I don't care who dies, bombs or gets killed. But right now, in the here and now... stop the bombing. If the bombing doesn't stop... occupy more land and more land until they don't have to worry about the low-lifes anymore.
Israel occupied the West Bank and Gaza in 1967. They then "pacified" he territories, which remained relatiely peaceful until the late 80s. In that time, the settlements began to be established.
By 1993, and the Oslo accords signed with the PLO, there were 100,000 settlers. The Oslo accords promised a Palestinian state within 5 years. By 1998, there were 200,000 settlers. That doubling occured during a period that was supposed to be leading up to a Palestinian state.
The settlements are not about securiy, the IDF is continually complaining the settlements require so many soldiers that hey don't have enough to man the border with the West Bank, or to provide security within Israel.
If the bombing doesn't stop... occupy more land and more land until they don't have to worry about the low-lifes anymore
Where do the 4 million Palestinians go when all their land is occupied?
As a policy, occupying more land every time there's a bombing might have worked, if Israel hadn't been busy occupying more land even when there wasn't a bombing.
It's a simple situation. The Palestinians have land the Israelis want. The Israelis are busy removing them from it. That means war.
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Thank you Hangtime, my limited knowledge of english stops me from answering to these posts as I'm never certain as to how I'd explain my pov properly... (perhaps I should do it it french, but I have a feeling it would be lost somehow :) )
Someone please pay a beer to that guy on my behalf at the con.
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Again Nashwan, you oversimplify things. Please dont do that. If Israel is removing Palestines from whatever territory, it doesnt mean war. Just as if the government removes me from my property, that does not mean war...it just means that the government is expropriating my land.
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Nash
I said in the hear and now.. and thats what I meant. I understand all the historical unfairness and this and that. However, right here and right now... stop the bombing FIRST. You can't possibly expect me to support the terroist bombing avenue of approach, or condone it as a means to an end right now. Right now the U.S. is showing high interest in brokering a Palestinian state and Isreal WILL listen. Unfortunately the Palestinians blew the first (of many) step(S) the other day. Well, actually it was likely Hamas who blew it, and will continue to blow it as a Jewish Isreal in any form is against thier basic doctrine. However, refer to my earlier suggestion that the majority do something about it. As far as where do the 4 million palestinians go? I don't care... as far as I'm concerned that majority supports the bombing, so let them settle in Antarctica for all I care, I'm sure penguin hunting is fun and would provide plenty of chow.
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Originally posted by Hortlund
if the government removes me from my property, that does not mean war...it just means that the government is expropriating my land.
Of course, if the gov chooses to do that, unjustly and with no regard to my rights, just to promote the interests of another group, I might choose not to regard the government as legal, since they don't seem to view themselves bounded by the laws. And I might view myself constrained to act, in order to secure the possession of MY land, with any means available.
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Originally posted by Hortlund
In June a poll taken in the Gaza Strip found that 78% of the population approved of suicide bombings, considerably more than supported peace talks (60%).
DO YOU REALLY NEED TO SCREAM ?
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Originally posted by Saintaw
Thank you Hangtime, my limited knowledge of english stops me from answering to these posts as I'm never certain as to how I'd explain my pov properly... (perhaps I should do it it french, but I have a feeling it would be lost somehow :) )
Someone please pay a beer to that guy on my behalf at the con.
Same here, you've 2 more beers to your credit Hangtime.
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Just as if the government removes me from my property, that does not mean war...it just means that the government is expropriating my land.
It's not the government, it's a foreign government. When foreign goernments come to take away your land, it usually means war.
You can't possibly expect me to support the terroist bombing avenue of approach, or condone it as a means to an end right now.
Of course not, I'd be rather alarmed if you did support or condone terrorism.
Right now the U.S. is showing high interest in brokering a Palestinian state and Isreal WILL listen.
That's optimism I don't share. I'm pretty certain the Palestinians don't share it.
When Bush said during Defensive Shield that he expected the IDF to withdraw immediately, Israel simply ignored him.
The right wing in Israel believe in settlements. They believe the West Bank and Gaza are lands given to them by God, and they have no intention of ever giving them up.
The best deal that's ever been offered to the Palestinians was offered by Barak, and that was a joke, a state split into 4 by Israeli settlements and their security zones.
Remember, the colonies increased in times of peace and times of war. They are not historical wrongs, like the expulsion of Arabs in 1948. They are ongoing, increasing in scope and size every day.
We're not talking about people who were driven off their land 50 years ago, we're talking about people who were driven off last year, and last week. And next week, and next year.
Calling on Palestinians to stop terrorism is calling on them to surrender, and to accept whatever Israel decides to offer them.
I don't know of a country that's been colonised and ethnically cleansed that didn't fight back. Why do you expect the Palestinians to be any different?
The current terrorist attacks started because of the settlement and occupation, not the other way around. Where is the logic in expecting them to stop first?
The situation isn't ready for resolution yet. Sharon is ideologically commited to settlements, he after all was responsible for founding many of them. There will have to be a change of government in Israel before a deal becomes possible, because no matter what the situation, Israel is not going to give up the colonies at the moment.
There will probably need to be a change in Palestinian leadership as well. Israel could actually bring this about by offering and publicising a good deal. The Palestinians are sick of the war, just like the Israelis. If Israel offers a good deal, and appeals over he head of Arafat, he will have to take it or risk being replaced by someone who will.
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Originally posted by Hortlund
In June a poll taken in the Gaza Strip found that 78% of the population approved of suicide bombings, considerably more than supported peace talks (60%).
Let's see now. Did that poll have any references to after an Israeli withdraw from the Occupied Territories?
You wouldn't think that perhaps the Israeli incursions into several towns and some innocent Palestinians getting killed had anything to do with those results do you?
I'd wager given the situation being different, that of the Palestinians having their own state, with a bit of econimic prosperity, that poll result would be waaaay different.
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Originally posted by LePaul
Its all a really old blood feud.
Meanwhile, Im pretty peeved at all the handouts we, the US Gov't, give these countries in foreign aid. Nope, sorry, not into buying friends. Seems to be a long list of peoples and places we have helped along who only turn around and want to murder us at the first chance they get. (Kuwait, etc etc)
Sometimes, financial isolationism sounds like a good idea to me
What handouts and to which arab countries? What have we ever given to the Palestinians?
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Originally posted by Nashwan
It's not the government, it's a foreign government. When foreign goernments come to take away your land, it usually means war.
It doesn't even matter that much whose government it is. I'm certain that if the US government, though its agencies, started to ignore court rulings in order to favour a group on a systematic basis, you would have civil unrest in rather short time.
Imagine the police not enforcing evictions regarding a certain demographic group, let alone actively supporting them in their squatting. How would you feel if they moved onto your lawn? Would you still pay taxes and be an obedient citizen?
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In June a poll taken in the Gaza Strip found that 78% of the population approved of suicide bombings, considerably more than supported peace talks (60%).
The figures are wrong, BTW
79% support the intifada
68% support suicide bombings
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Originally posted by Nashwan
The figures are wrong, BTW
79% support the intifada
68% support suicide bombings
My source is Time.com. What's yours?
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Originally posted by straffo
DO YOU REALLY NEED TO SCREAM ?
YES
;)
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Originally posted by wsnpr
What handouts and to which arab countries? What have we ever given to the Palestinians?
Food.
(Ok, it might not be AK-47s, and it might not be explosives and tanks, but it SHOULD account for someting)
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Originally posted by Hortlund
YES
;)
speak a bit louder please ... I'm deaf since your last post :D
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Sorry ... no
"Man" is the root of ALL evil. God gave us free will. To love or hate. Heal or Kill. WE make the decision, not an angel or devil sittin on your shoulder...
Religion is but an excuse. A reason for some to show love while others to show hate. An excuse, one of many, as it is easier not to show true compassion, than to show it.
Put the blame on the root cause - ignorance, ego, selfishness & pride <- all "Man" traits, all spoken of in all the Holy scriptures of being the "evils" we as a race must strive to overcome if we are to find peace on this earth...
Just a clue, it ain't gonna happen anytime soon as we appear to be going backwards ... don't worry, we'll all be back til we get it right.
Now ain't that a lovely thought ...
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Originally posted by Hortlund
it might not be explosives and tanks
Certainly not, all of those went to Israel, along with the aircraft, missiles and a s#&tload of money.:)
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Originally posted by Nashwan
That's optimism I don't share. I'm pretty certain the Palestinians don't share it.
When Bush said during Defensive Shield that he expected the IDF to withdraw immediately, Israel simply ignored him.
Ahhh, but in reality they did listen. The Isreali's won't be ordered around publicly, just like you and I wouldn't be either (on a much smaller scale). However, when it comes right down to it, the U.S. has an extremely large negotiating chip. The Isreali's simply can't afford to lose U.S. aid.
The right wing in Israel believe in settlements. They believe the West Bank and Gaza are lands given to them by God, and they have no intention of ever giving them up.
[/b]
Probably not, but that would be decided at the table
Remember, the colonies increased in times of peace and times of war. They are not historical wrongs, like the expulsion of Arabs in 1948. They are ongoing, increasing in scope and size every day.
[/b]
Why? Because they have been booted out of other Arabic nations for decades... centuries really. Jordan, Syria, Iraq, Iran etc etc.. they don't want them either. If the entire Palestinian state were to pick up and move to any other country or move in groups among the lot, they'd be persecuted far beyond what Isreal has ever done (think Kurds).
We're not talking about people who were driven off their land 50 years ago, we're talking about people who were driven off last year, and last week. And next week, and next year.[/b]
I don't know if we can really seperate the when and where's at this point. IMO the issue is now and it's about the bombing ending and the Palestinians getting a State. Maybe it's rhetoric and maybe it's not, but if we don't give the Isreali's a chance at this point, it's going to get much uglier, much bloodier and far more costly for the Palestinians. You have to consider, not one Islamic based country in the region is going to risk full scale war on Isreal by themselves in order to back the Palestinians... they know they'd lose. If they try getting together and taking war to Isreal, they know they've got the U.S. to deal with. If the U.S. decides to stay out of it... Isreal will simply make a glass parking lot out of the country of thier choosing, just to get things started. The Palestinians are simply cutting thier noses off to spite thier face now by continuing (or allowing the continuation of) the bombings.
Calling on Palestinians to stop terrorism is calling on them to surrender, and to accept whatever Israel decides to offer them.[/b]
So your saying Terror is an acceptable form of warfare, or politics? I think the civilized world would disagree. Even if it's acceptable, it's proven to be one of the most ineffective means to an end in history. Terrorism is the product of intelligent (or not so intelligent) zealots that have no other means to conduct militaristic operations to achieve political gain. What has any terrorist group ever accomplished other than killing thousands of innocent people? (please folks don't start on Iran Contra... a few guns is hardly a political advantage or creation of a state)
I don't know of a country that's been colonised and ethnically cleansed that didn't fight back. Why do you expect the Palestinians to be any different?[/b]
I don't, yet I don't consider convincing your kids to strap explosives on themselves and blow up buses full of students as a form of fighting, I consider it the most loathsome form of cowardice that should and is answered with greater and more deadly force, apprehension of perpetrators, imprisonment and executions if necessary. Heck I hate to say it but I'd totally support Isreal rounding up the families, Mom, Dad, and siblings of every bomber and thowing them all in jail for 20yrs each... might get the kiddie bombers attention. But back to your point, my answer can only be that right now the Palestinians could/would sway world opinion if they'd just stop the bombing and come to the table. As I said before, then if Isreal won't play... screw Isreal.
The current terrorist attacks started because of the settlement and occupation, not the other way around. Where is the logic in expecting them to stop first?[/b]
The logic is thier methods. And I humbly disagree that that started the bombings. It may have triggered the bombings THIS time, but as long as the Isreali's are the "Have's" and the Palestinians are the "Have-nots", there will be problems. Further, as long as thier are Jews in Isreal (or at least a Jewish State so to speak), Arabs (Islam rather) will consider them targets of opportunity. It's been that way since biblical times, or at least Mohamads time.
The situation isn't ready for resolution yet. Sharon is ideologically commited to settlements, he after all was responsible for founding many of them. There will have to be a change of government in Israel before a deal becomes possible, because no matter what the situation, Israel is not going to give up the colonies at the moment.[/b]
IMO that while true, it's still no excuse for thier methods OR thier refusal to allow talks.
There will probably need to be a change in Palestinian leadership as well. Israel could actually bring this about by offering and publicising a good deal.[/b]
ya think? :D
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So what happens to the rest of the world when the terorist win?
If the Palistineans get what they want by blowing up civilians, what is to stop them (or other terrorist) from deciding they won once why not try it again?
Al-Qaeda - http://www.fas.org/irp/world/para/docs/980223-fatwa.htm
Indonisia - Islamic rebels - http://www.time.com/time/asia/photoessays/laskar_jihad/
Philippine - Islamic rebels - http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/nm/20020612/wl_nm/philippines_arroyo_dc_1
Spain - Basque sepratist
Turkey - Kurdish rebels
Mexico - Zapatista rebels
England - IRA
Columbia - Marxist Rebels
China - Muslim rebles
Malasia - Islamic rebels
India - Muslim rebels
Congo - Civil war
This list could get mighty long. The US has been accused of stealing land from the Indians and from Mexico. Are we going to give it back if they start blowng stuff up?
I dont see an easy end to terrorism. If we want a peaceful end to the problem in Israel/Palistine, it better not be done by giving in to homicide bombers. The next school bus blown up could be in your neighborhood.
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Originally posted by Tumor
Why? Because they have been booted out of other Arabic nations for decades... centuries really.
I think Nashwan ment the Jewish settlements not the Palestinian refugee camps.
If the entire Palestinian state were to pick up and move to any other country or move in groups among the lot, they'd be persecuted far beyond what Isreal has ever done (think Kurds).
I don't get it, what have Kurds got to do with Palestinians?
Further, as long as thier are Jews in Isreal (or at least a Jewish State so to speak), Arabs (Islam rather) will consider them targets of opportunity. It's been that way since biblical times, or at least Mohamads time.
No, it has not. The Moslems were in many ways the most tolerant religious group towards the Jews. They were the ones accomodating Jewish refugees from all over Europe in Arab Spain and later in the Ottoman Empire. Indeed, it was in Arab ruled Spain that Judaism experienced a time of rejuvenation with great theological treatises authored. This was, of course, only possible thanks to the support from the califs, who never took their protective hand from the Jews, who were not very popular with the Christian locals.
Once the Reconquista was completed in the 15th century, the new Christian kings of Spain were not so tolerant towards the Jews as the moslems had been (both towards the Jews and the Christians, btw). That is why, almost all Jews living in Spain at that time left for the Middle East (preferably the aforementioned Ottoman Empire).
Actually it was during the Ottoman rule that the Jews began purchasing ground in Palestine, with the full knowledge of the authorities. If what you say was true, that the Moslems somehow disliked the Jews, they had ample opportunity to exterminate them all. Not only was this not done, but the Jews enjoyed special protection from the sultan, even having their own representative in Istanbul.
Ample proof is the fact that, as late as the 17th century, a wave of Jews from Ukraine had to leave because of the persecution they endured from the local Orthodox Christians (who, thanks to the Khmelnitsky uprisings that eliminated central authority control from Catholic Warsaw, were determined to kill every single Jew left in Ukraine). In a most natural way, they did not leave for Europe, buy for Istanbul and Anatolia, which, at that time were seen as a safe heaven. Still today, their descendants live (the ones that did not move to Israel) throughout the former holdings of the Ottoman Empire (Romania, Yugoslavia, Crimeea etc).
So in no way can it be said that the Moslems have viewed the Jews with hatred through the centuries. Only in modern times, coupled to the formation of the state of Israel, was this enmity born. It would be very interesting to know when it will end.
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Probably not, but that would be decided at the table
They went to the table. It was decided, by Israel, that they would get part of the West Bank, split up into 3 segments. A large part would be under "temporary" Israeli occupation, with no dae set for a pullout. The water allocation was to remain as it is now, 70litres a day for Arabs, 350 for Jews.
Maybe it's rhetoric and maybe it's not, but if we don't give the Isreali's a chance at this point, it's going to get much uglier, much bloodier and far more costly for the Palestinians.
It can't get much worse for the Palestinians.
The Israelis are uneasy about the way the Palestinians are being treated as it is. There is an ever growing list of Israelis refusing to serve in the West Bank and Gaza.
The current situation is so bad, aid organisations are warning of impending famine in towns on the West Bank, due to closures.
There isn't much more Israel can do, short of mass murder, and that won' be acceptable to Israelis or the outside world.
Israel is also in dire financial difficulties, cutting budgets and raising taxes. It's largely caused by the security situation, call up of reservists etc. Things are so bad, next year the defence budget is being cut, despite the security situation.
So your saying Terror is an acceptable form of warfare, or politics?
Is warfare an aceptable form of politics?
During WW1, Germany began sending Zepplins over Britain to bomb London and other towns. There was no pretence at damaging industry, no pretence that the campaign could win the war. It was simply a way of killing British civilians to make hem sick of the war.
There is no difference between that tactic and the current Palestinian tactics.
What has any terrorist group ever accomplished other than killing thousands of innocent people?
Israel was founded by Jewish terrorism. At the point when Britain was restricting Jewish immigration late in WW2, the Jewish terrorist gangs began attacking British targets. They kidnapped British soldiers, held them hostage, then murdered them when their demands were not met. They used carbombs to attack Arab targets, and threw grenades from cars at groups of Arabs.
The leaders of the two largest terrorist groups at the time were Menachim Begin and Yithak Shamir. You may have heard of them during their tenures as Prime Minister of Israel.
Terrorism has worked in a great many conflicts round the world.
But back to your point, my answer can only be that right now the Palestinians could/would sway world opinion if they'd just stop the bombing and come to the table. As I said before, then if Isreal won't play... screw Isreal.
There were negotiations. Israel offered part of the West Bank, but ruled out any right of return, water rights, etc.
Rather than saying screw Israel, people immediately started saying screw the Palestinians, for not taking what they were given.
A way out of this would be for interested countries, other than Israel and the Palestinians, to work out a deal. America, the EU, UN, Jordan and Egypt should work out a peace plan, present it to both sides, and screw whicheer side didnt comply.
Sadly, it won't happen, because no major US politician is prepared to stand up to Israel.
The logic is thier methods. And I humbly disagree that that started the bombings. It may have triggered the bombings THIS time, but as long as the Isreali's are the "Have's" and the Palestinians are the "Have-nots", there will be problems
Perhaps Israel should have tried to make them into Have's during the 25 year military occupation, rather than taking their land and water.
Further, as long as thier are Jews in Isreal (or at least a Jewish State so to speak), Arabs (Islam rather) will consider them targets of opportunity. It's been that way since biblical times, or at least Mohamads time.
As Romeoman said, the Jewish have been treated much better under Arab rule than Christian.
Een as lae as the 18th century, the Spanish insisted on a clause in the treaty that granted Gibraltar to Britain, stipulating that no Arabs or Jews should be allowed to live on the Rock.
The Crusaders massacred most of the Jews in present day Israel, and drove the remainder out. It wasn't until the Arabs reconquered Jerusalem that Jews were allowed back.
IMO that while true, it's still no excuse for thier methods OR thier refusal to allow talks.
It's the Israeli government that is refusing to have talks. In fact, Sharon has gone so far as to say he will not discuss the settlements until after the next Israeli elections, up to 18 months away. Sharon's plans for talks also includes several years of stages. before settlements are abandoned or a Palestinian state set up.
ya think?
I don't know if Arafat is shrewd enough to recognize a good deal, if one is ever offered. I suspect he is, but it hardly matters. A good deal will be accepted by the Palestinians, and somebody in the Palestinian leadership will use it as a lever to the top. In other words, if a deal is offered that most Palestinians will accept, either Arafat will accept it or someone will stage a coup, replace Arafat, accept the deal and make himself a hero to the Palestinians.
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Originally posted by Nashwan
It can't get much worse for the Palestinians.
Man you are naive.
Do you REALLY think that what the Palestinians are experiencing right now is anywhere near what they would get if they would try this approach in Iraq or Egypt or Syria?
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Originally posted by Nashwan
Is warfare an aceptable form of politics?
[/b]
Man you are naive (part II).
Take a look at US foreign policy and ask yourself that question again. Off the top of my head: Nicaragua, El Salvador, Panama, Grenada, Iraq, Somalia, Sudan, Afghanistan, Serbia (Kosovo), Lebanon, Libya (and those are just the post 1980 ones that I can remember right now)
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Originally posted by Nashwan
During WW1, Germany began sending Zepplins over Britain to bomb London and other towns. There was no pretence at damaging industry, no pretence that the campaign could win the war. It was simply a way of killing British civilians to make hem sick of the war.
There is no difference between that tactic and the current Palestinian tactics.
HELLO!
So what you are saying is that the Palestinian suicide bombers are no different from the Bomber Commands attacks over Germany in 1941-45?
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Fuzzy Logic..
..is always accurate.
Steve, yer ability to condone one protagonists inhumane methods while condeming the others is kinda gay.
The palestinians don't have an army. They got 'terrorists'. And plenty of martyrs for motivation.
The Israli's have an army, tanks, helo's and handy dandy martyred civilians of their own for motivation.
You try to put your moral standards on the opposition, and he'll spot that weakness and exploit it.
I don't see much diffrence between the protagonists and their methods in the middle east. Just like there was not much diffrence between the Reich and the Allies with regards to their methods. Yup.. Dresden was horrible. So was London. Antwerp. Hamburg. Stalingrad. Berlin...
War is hell. You tend to attack with all of what you've got to work with.
If all you got is suicide bombers, then thats what you send.
It's disgusting, yes. I deplore it. We all do. I don't condone it.. no one in his right mind (if he's a westerner) could.
But it's there.. now.. and the only thing that's gonna slow it down is NOT retribution and continued approbation for the israli's. it's the formation of a palestinian state, with a responsible government with it's own legitimate security force, insulated from isreal by a UN patrolled and controlled buffer zone.
Surely, you see that?
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Then terrorism wins hangtime?
Why can't folks see the goal is total erradication of Israel? Hell, its a stated agenda. Pretty damn clear or did I miss Arafat say, "Oh, I was just kidding when I said that".
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no, then after they have their state, you throw a huge party, inviting all the nutbag terrorist orgs, the followers and their leaders to congratulate them on a mission well done. When you have them all in the "party" room, there is a mysterious gas leak and explosion which levels the entire building ridding the earth of this batch of terrorist scum. At that point, the palestine ppl can join the rest of the modern world & show us what they have to contribute as productive citizens...
Whatever happens does anyone think Israel would not hunt down every terrorist they can track and eliminate them, tomorrow or 20 years from now??? Unlike America, they don't forget & forgive ...
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Man you are naive.
Do you REALLY think that what the Palestinians are experiencing right now is anywhere near what they would get if they would try this approach in Iraq or Egypt or Syria?
I was responding to a question about Israeli retaliation against the Palestinians. Obviously things could get get worse, you only have to look what happened to Semites in Germany to see how much worse it could get.
However, the point was the Israelis can't sink to the depths Germany did. The Israeli public wouldn't accept it, the US public wouldn't accept it, the EU wouldn't accept it.
If Israel went down that road, of large scale blatant reprisals, they would find themselves with internal dissent, mutiny in the IDF, a trade blockade from Europe and the end of financial support from America.
Sharon would have achieved what the Arabs couldn't, the destruction of Israel.
Man you are naive (part II).
Take a look at US foreign policy and ask yourself that question again. Off the top of my head: Nicaragua, El Salvador, Panama, Grenada, Iraq, Somalia, Sudan, Afghanistan, Serbia (Kosovo), Lebanon, Libya (and those are just the post 1980 ones that I can remember right now)
I was responding to a question about terrorism being acceptable. I was showing the parallel between terrorism and other forms of warfare.
HELLO!
So what you are saying is that the Palestinian suicide bombers are no different from the Bomber Commands attacks over Germany in 1941-45?
The methods are similar, as they are similar to the Luftwaffe's methods, the USAAF's methods etc.
The response should be proportional to the situation. If Britain had firebombed or nuked Argentina in response to the Falklands invasion, I would say it was wrong. Britain did that to Germany, in the face of a regieme that was murdering thousands every day. The total casualties inflicted by Bomber Command were less than 1% of the total casualties of the war. I don't believe that's disproportionate.
Tell me how you would characterize men in airships dropping bombs on an undefended city at random? The targets were purely civilian, there was no strategic goal.
The Palestinians attack the IDF where and when they can. In the first intifada, in the late 80s, they attacked largely with stones, and got massacred as a result. The "score" was aproximately 810 to 14.
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Originally posted by easymo
"High time the US actually paid it's UN dues"
We have grave yards FULL of dead American service men. Where do we send the corpses.
Thanks but we have plenty of our own, and still manage to perform over 10% of the UN peace keeping duties (even though we have less then 1% of the UN population, AND we pay our bills on time.
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Then terrorism wins hangtime?
Why can't folks see the goal is total erradication of Israel? Hell, its a stated agenda. Pretty damn clear or did I miss Arafat say, "Oh, I was just kidding when I said that".
The PLO was founded in 1964, with the stated aim of the destruction of Israel.
That was 16 years after hundreds of thousands of Palestinians had been driven out of their homes and lands in what became Israel. They were the reason for the PLO's existence.
It's now 55 years since those people were forced out of Israel. Not many of them are alive. Few who remember the time before Israel was founded are alive. The vast majority of Palestinians alive now were born in the diaspora or in the West Bank and Gaza.
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Originally posted by Nashwan
The PLO was founded in 1964, with the stated aim of the destruction of Israel.
That was 16 years after hundreds of thousands of Palestinians had been driven out of their homes and lands in what became Israel. They were the reason for the PLO's existence.
It's now 55 years since those people were forced out of Israel. Not many of them are alive. Few who remember the time before Israel was founded are alive. The vast majority of Palestinians alive now were born in the diaspora or in the West Bank and Gaza.
(Quote from - Photo Global Switzerland)
The PLO was created in 1963 to liberate Palistine from occupation but the PLO never once commited a terrorist act against the Jordanian occupation of the West Bank or the Egyptian occupation of the Gaza Strip. Now you have to ask youself what part of Palistine were the PLO trying to liberate?
In 1970, Yassar Arafat and the PLO tried to assasinate the King of Jordan and launch a coup to overthrow the Jordanian government leading to the civil war in Jordan and the expulsion of the PLO to Lebanon. This attempted coup lead to the deaths of many innocent Jordanians and Palistinans caught in the crossfire. Instead of attacking either the Isreali government or the Zahal, the PLO has deliberately tageted and murdered innocent Isreali children from the beginning.
A classic example is when three members of the PLO seized an elimentary school in Mal'lot, Isreal on May 3, 1974 and used children as human shields in a gun battle against Isreali police, causing the deaths of 25 children. In the last year of the Intifada, the Palistinian Authority has turned a blind eye to Hamas, Islamic Jihad and Hezbellah operating in its territory and allow almost daily terrorists attacks to occur against innocent Isrealis such as the recent attack that occured at Elias Sinai settlement where Palistinians killed two Isreali children and then tossed grenades into the homes of innocent children.
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Originally posted by Hortlund
Do you REALLY think that what the Palestinians are experiencing right now is anywhere near what they would get if they would try this approach in Iraq or Egypt or Syria?
Iraq & Syria are the puppet masters for the uneducated, brain washed, murderous Palestinian scum committing these horrendous acts. The US and Israel and Europe (<-yeah right :rolleyes: ) have to cut the head of the snake off, so its tail stops regenerating.
Take down these two countries and watch the bombers resources dry up fast.
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Actually, for prespective, try this.
If you were an American born two and a half centuries ago, and your child died while fighting the British in the Revolutionary War, you would be proud of them. Had heavy-handed british rule continued indefinately without them basically giving up, you might have even accepted an all-out war where any pro-brit -- even civilians -- were a target.
That is what the average Palestinian feels today. They have lived for a long time under a government that treats them as an enemy of the state. They want to be self-governed and are willing to fight and die for it.
I doubt I would feel differently if I were in their shoes.
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Lance
so you are saying you support and respect suicide bombers of women and children?
How bout the ones that took down the WTC, the Cole & all the others?
After all its gotta be our fault as we support evil Israel and their attack on us is just an extension of their "fight for freedom" right?? :rolleyes:
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"God" is the ultimate terrorist.
The jews claim Israel because "God" gave them the land.
The muslims kill the jews in the name of "Allah" and believe they go to paradise.
Like sheep to the slaughter.....all in the name of "God".
"God" is the oldest scam in the book...and religeons are the root of ALL evil.
It's amazing that people can be controlled by such an obvious scam as "God".
Of all of mans inventions "God" is the most destructive.
- Weasel
Yeah, well God is heating up a frying pan for you right now, weasel, to make some Blackened Weasel Patties :p
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Nope, I am not saying that at all, Eagler.
I simply pointed out why more and more Palestinian's are flocking to the terrorists causes. If you were to look out your window and see tanks rolling down your streets and shooting at your neighbors, how would you feel? What would you do? What if you had witnessed this for 30 years?
What I am saying is that Israel's policies do more to extend the influence of the terrorists groups among the general palestinian population than those groups could ever accomplish on their own.
Try this one out: After WWI, the victors kept germany in a state of economic ruin with reperations and industrial restrictions. As bad as the depression was here, multiply it by 10 and you have the conditions that prevailed in germany at the time. This forced hardship upon the german people created a climate to where someone like Hitler could rise to and stay in power.
The lesson to be learned was that if you try to keep a people planted firmly beneath your heal, you only fire their spirit -- which can be exploited by someone like Hitler. Or Osama Bin Laden.
This idea was put forth by Winston Churchill in his account of WWII. It is why we chose to rebuild Germany and Japan after the war as opposed to grinding them into dust. It is why Germany and Japan have not been a threat since then, either.
Does that make him and Truman a supporter of Hitler? No, it makes them WISE.
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Israel should absorb the west bank, and relocate the Palistinians living there to Gaza and Lebanon, or buy them a plane ticket so they can emigrate to Germany, France, Sweden and England, where they will be loved and welcomed.
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The Palastinians should nuke the Isrealies.
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Originally posted by Thrawn
The Palastinians should nuke the Isrealies.
Evil, Evil, Uber-Evil!
Is that part of your plans? You could knock out quite a few bus loads of women and children all at once. Just think of the celebrations throughout the region. The parties would probably last a few minutes anyway.
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"Of all of mans inventions "God" is the most destructive"
You don't know much about comparative religion. Or go to the hospital much...
russell in texas
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"If you were an American born two and a half centuries ago, and your child died while fighting the British in the Revolutionary War, you would be proud of them"
Yes. On the other hand. If the child had strapped ball, and powder to their ass. And blew themselves up. I would assume that nature had worked her magic. And disposed of an organism, to stupid to live.
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I simply pointed out why more and more Palestinian's are flocking to the terrorists causes. If you were to look out your window and see tanks rolling down your streets and shooting at your neighbors, how would you feel? What would you do? What if you had witnessed this for 30 years?
who the hell stole gordo's account?
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Originally posted by Nashwan
I don't know if Arafat is shrewd enough to recognize a good deal, if one is ever offered. I suspect he is, but it hardly matters. A good deal will be accepted by the Palestinians, and somebody in the Palestinian leadership will use it as a lever to the top. In other words, if a deal is offered that most Palestinians will accept, either Arafat will accept it or someone will stage a coup, replace Arafat, accept the deal and make himself a hero to the Palestinians.
Nash
I care not what excuses you try to make or who or what you try to justify. I will not get in bed with Terrorists and say it's "ok" since they don't get things the way they want. I don't care what "side" it is... the methods the Palestinians are using is WRONG!. If you can sleep at night giving the go ahead to these people.. be my guest. I find it disgusting.
Tumor
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A second time Nashawan
So your saying Terror is an acceptable form of warfare, or politics?
Please enlighten us?
And again... HERE and NOW.
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Originally posted by Jack55
Israel should absorb the west bank, and relocate the Palistinians living there to Gaza and Lebanon, or buy them a plane ticket so they can emigrate to Germany, France, Sweden and England, where they will be loved and welcomed.
LOL!!!
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by the way... this is my first +100 thread lol. I'm so proud I can hardly contain myself hehehe
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I care not what excuses you try to make or who or what you try to justify.
I'm not excusing the inexcusable, or justifying the unjustifiable. I'm giving you reasons why it happens, and reasons why it's inevitable.
I will not get in bed with Terrorists and say it's "ok" since they don't get things the way they want.
Israel wasn't given the West Bank and Gaza. They wanted them, they took them and they're holding on to them by force, which includes killing Palestinians. Today, for example, an Israeli tank fired a shell at Jenin market, killing 4 people, including 3 kids, 2 6 year olds and a 12 year old.
If you can sleep at night giving the go ahead to these people.. be my guest.
They've never asked me my opinion, much less for my permission. If they did, I'd say no.
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A second time Nashawan
So your saying Terror is an acceptable form of warfare, or politics?
What is an acceptable form of warfare?
I can't remember if it was on AH or another board, but soembody posted two quotes from America, before they got involved in WW2.
The first condemned the practice of bombing civilians, the second the practice of straffing attacks on civilians. They were described as immoral, iirc.
Both tactics were adopted by the US during the war.
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Stricktly speaking that is not an answer nashwan (just wanted to point that out) And I do feel the question is legit.
(And I posted those quotes...who else right ;)
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Originally posted by Tumor
by the way... this is my first +100 thread lol. I'm so proud I can hardly contain myself hehehe
100? .......pocket change ;)
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Originally posted by Nashwan
What is an acceptable form of warfare?.
Is this???
Hamas Declares 'War on Buses'
sick bastards ... need to be exterminated
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,55764,00.html
these crazy sand sucking arses are slowly taking us all into WWIII, I guess at that point some of you will see the "light"
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I read today Arafat announced that he would now accept in full the Clinton/Barak plan that he stormed away from in a huff a few years ago.
This comes as Israel announced it was going to re-occupy all PLO land again.
Arafat then condemed all raids against Israeli citizens and warned that if they did not end, Isreal would take over all their land.
LOL! Arafat may be a little late. He says this now only because Israel is finnally gonna unleash on the PLO's filthy, murdering asses. This proves that the only thing the PLO ( now PLA for political correctness) understand is FORCE!
Israel needs to wipe these guys ( PLO, Arafat, Hamas, etc) out once and for all. That is the only way Palastinian people will get peace.
By the way, can you name a millitary conflic in history that was ever solved without the use of force? Arafat signed many pieces of paper over the years, yet now when Israel is preparing to take over all the PLA areas, he's ready to talk! Go Figure huh?
NUKE
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Originally posted by NUKE
By the way, can you name a millitary conflic in history that was ever solved without the use of force?
NUKE
Uhhh...
Have we ever heard of a MILITARY CONFLICT that was ever solved without the USE OF FORCE?
Well gosh, I guess not NUKE, you have us there. Damn but you're a politcal jeenius. :rolleyes:
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"Uhhh...
Have we ever heard of a MILITARY CONFLICT that was ever solved without the USE OF FORCE?
Well gosh, I guess not NUKE, you have us there. Damn but you're a politcal jeenius."
And thanks to Thrawn for being the first to make my point: Israel and PLO in a military conflict, that meaning Israel now needs to wipe out PLO with full MILITARY force.
NUKE
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Stricktly speaking that is not an answer nashwan (just wanted to point that out)
It seems like an answer to me.
To reiterate: I don't support, justify, condone or approve of the terrorist attacks.
I also don't support, justify, condone or approve of Israeli policy of ehnic cleansing and colonization.
I believe the Israeli policy is fueling the conflict. Even if Palestinians prove not to have normal human traits, and remain comitted to the conflict after Israel pulls out of the territories, a pull out will allow Israel to establish a proper border between herself and the Palestinians.
I believe the current Israeli government could end the war by negotiations, but chooses not to because their desire for land outweighs the casualties they are incuring.
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(Actually you still havent answered the question, but I'm gonna drop that one since you obviously dont want to give it a "yes" or "no" answer)
And I disagree with your analysis on why the current Israeli government chooses not to enter into negotiations.
The US has a policy that has worked for them. They NEVER negotiate with terrorists. Because once you start doing that, you have practically opened the door for every other organization to start using violence to achieve their goals.
And Israel can establish a proper border right now if they want to. All they have to do is fence in all Palestinian settlements.
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btw, Nashwan, you seem to have alot of knowledge about the terrorist attacks. Do you know if any suicide bomber and/or other type of terrorist (gunman) have come from inside Israel, or are all of them from the occupied territories? When I say "inside Israel", Im talking about Israeli arabs.
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The US has a policy that has worked for them. They NEVER negotiate with terrorists. Because once you start doing that, you have practically opened the door for every other organization to start using violence to achieve their goals.
The Israeli's had the option to negotiate a settlement with the Palestinians in the 25 years they occupied the West Bank and Gaza. They chose not to.
They don't really have much of an option now.
And Israel can establish a proper border right now if they want to. All they have to do is fence in all Palestinian settlements.
They can't fence in 3 million Palestinians for two main reasons.
Firstly, they haven't got the manpower in the IDF to maintain those "borders". Hitler was often criticised for not listening to reason and shortening the front lines with the Soviets. I don't think the IDF are that stupid.
Secondly, the 3 million Palestinians in their ghettos will have to be fed, because they will be unable to produce food, supplied with medical care etc.
Israel can't afford to maintain it's own unemployed, of about 250,000. Keeping 3 million Palestinians in idleness is more than they can afford.
As an example of the financial pressure, next year the IDF is facing a budget cut of 1 billion shekels. Returning the civil administration to the territories would cost 3 - 4 billion shekels, about $800 million. And that's assuming Palestinians are able to grow their own food etc.
Actually you still havent answered the question, but I'm gonna drop that one since you obviously dont want to give it a "yes" or "no" answer
I'm confused as to what the question was now. Repeat it, and I'll see if I can give it a yes/no answer. Not all questions can have a yes/no answer, however. The classic is "Have you stopped beating your wife?"
Do you know if any suicide bomber and/or other type of terrorist (gunman) have come from inside Israel, or are all of them from the occupied territories? When I say "inside Israel", Im talking about Israeli arabs.
As far as I am aware, 1 Israeli Arab has carried out a suicide attack, although I think he was a Palestinian Arab who recieved citizenship when his mother married an Israeli Arab.
Shin Bet, the Israeli securiy service, said involvement of Israeli Arabs in terrorism is growing. They say they investigated 8 cases in 2000, which had risen to about 20 cases in 2001. These are only suspicions and investigations, and usually concern involement or contact with Palestinian terrorists, not active involvement in terrorist operations.
A typical example is an Israeli Arab girl, who was befriended by a Palestinian Arab. She bought him a mobile phone, because he claimed his had been cut off, but he really wanted a phone not registered to him so that Shin Bet wouldn't tap it. She then went on to give him lifts in her car etc. Very few cases like this result in prosecution, and Shin Bet itself admits Israeli Arab involvement is "marginal".
The most recent case was an Israeli Jewish woman, a prostitue and immigrant from Russia, knowingly helping a terrorist bombing in Israel.
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The question:
Are you saying that Terror is an acceptable form of warfare, or politics? (in your own very personal opinion that is) Do you think that terror is an acceptable form of warfare, politics or resistance?
On the Israeli arabs. But doesnt that show, that arabs, palestinians can live a normal life inside Israel? If the Israeli arabs have been able to get over the idea of an independent palestine, and prosper, why should not the other palestinians be able to do the same thing.
Perhaps the best solution would be if Israel would annex the west bank. Those palestinians who are reluctant to become Israeli arabs are given the opportunity to move to the Gaza strip which becomes "Palestine".
Stay, and you will be adopted as an Israeli citizen (after a period of time), leave and you will get to work towards creating a glorious Palestine on the Gaza strip with all your friends.
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Are you saying that Terror is an acceptable form of warfare,
Yes and no.
It's as acceptable as any other form of warfare. Bombing towns, shelling towns, blockades, all cause civilian deaths. Wars often descend into killing civilians. When one side has an upper hand, it is easy to refrain from doing so. When one side is left with few other options, they kill civilians.
Almost everyone active on this board is a citizen of a country that has done so in the last 60 years.
or politics
No. Violence is not an acceptable form of politics. I don't agree with Clauswitz (sp?)
Violence should be confined to self defence only.
Do you think that terror is an acceptable form of warfare, politics or resistance?
Yes, no, yes, in that order. When you are attacked, you fight back.
I am fairly sure that if the IDF offered to use only infantry in the teritories, in return for no more suicide bombings, the Palestinian terrorist groups would take them up on it.
Saying terrorism is wrong is fine for the side with the tanks, planes, helicopters etc. Remember, the Zionists used the same tactics of attacking civilians to found their state. It seems very hypocritical to say we used terrorism against you, but now we have power you must not use it against us.
On the Israeli arabs. But doesnt that show, that arabs, palestinians can live a normal life inside Israel?
Yes, it does. I said as much on the other threads.
If the Israeli arabs have been able to get over the idea of an independent palestine, and prosper, why should not the other palestinians be able to do the same thing.
Perhaps the best solution would be if Israel would annex the west bank. Those palestinians who are reluctant to become Israeli arabs are given the opportunity to move to the Gaza strip which becomes "Palestine".
Stay, and you will be adopted as an Israeli citizen (after a period of time), leave and you will get to work towards creating a glorious Palestine on the Gaza strip with all your friends.
If the West Bank was annexed, and made part of Israel, the Palestinians would be partying in the streets. The list of Palestinians trying to become Israeli citizens through marriage makes the list for the US green card lottery look small.
What the vast majority of Palestinians want is a better life.
Unfourtunately, that's never been on offer. Israel is a "Jewish democractic" state. It can't be that if half it's inhabitants are Arabs.
After Israel conquered the territories, the Palestinians were offered nothing. No chance at citizenship, no votes, no public money (although they had to pay taxes). In that situation, where they had no citizenship in any state, and faced the prospect of gradualy been removed from any land they owned, conflict was inevitable. It's suprising it took so long.
Israel could solve this problem, either through abandoning the West Bank and Gaza, or absorbing them and the Arabs who live there. Trying to take the land without the people is foolish, and bound to lead to war.
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Dar al-Salaam - House of peace - the islamic way of peace, this involves the entire world to either be islamic or recognize the leadership and world religion as Islam.
In order to get to "House of peace" The world must face the "House of war", house of war means all none islamic believers must convert to islam, die by the sword or accept the only true religion of islam and recognize the islamic leaders as the true leaders.
Those who accept the terms but wish to still be christians , jews or be part of any non-islamic religion must obey the dhimmi rules.
This means 2nd or 3rd grade citizenship.
fjod.