Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: midnight Target on June 19, 2002, 11:31:08 AM
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This came up in the Aircraft forum. There seems to be a bit of animosity toward Hermann Graf. This guy had 212 air victories, and was the first pilot to reach 200. He was the last Commander of Jg52. Please explain to me why he is not to be admired along with the rest of the Nazi Aces so many look up to?
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He defected to the communists at the end of the war, atleast that's how I understand it. For some reason Grunherz thinks this makes him even worse of a person.
I mean, he went from one more evil party to one slightly less evil party... but because of this, he is the worst kind of LuftWaffe pilot.
-SW
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Here a good link:
http://www.luftwaffe-experten.com/pilots_day/H_Graf.html
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He was gay.
Just like Kurt Tank.
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Originally posted by midnight Target
This came up in the Aircraft forum. There seems to be a bit of animosity toward Hermann Graf. This guy had 212 air victories, and was the first pilot to reach 200. He was the last Commander of Jg52. Please explain to me why he is not to be admired along with the rest of the Nazi Aces so many look up to?
Nazi aces? I do admire no stinkin' nazi aces.
I do admire a helluva lot of GERMAN aces, tho. Graf being between them. (my list will always focus on people like Nowotny, Bär , Priller ,Eder and the like ...because they were 190 aces, hehehe :D)
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ˇˇRAMona se te ha olvidado Otto Kittel!!
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Y barkhorn,y bauer, y "ansi" hahn, y mil mas...... nos ha jodido :D.....si tengo q nombrar a todos......
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I dont like him because he betrayed his friends after the war, decided to become a communist, and decided to live in east germany- he also volunteered to join the soviet airforce. Has nothing to do with his career during the war.
Oh yea SW Communism is the greatest evil of all time, ever.
Killed, opressed, enslaved, ethnically clensed and commited genocide on a greater scale and greater numbers than any idea in history. And to think its very popular with many intelectuals today. :(
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And to think its very popular with many intelectuals today.
Really? Who?
Graf was held captive by the Russians, and decided he liked them. Galland went off to Argentina (a dictatorship btw) and flew there. Both were great pilots. Both defended the Fatherland until the end. This is when the "I admire the Germans, not the Nazis" rhetoric starts to disintigrate. Graf was a pilot with admirable skills. I guess he was a bad Nazi though.
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He was a "good" nazi during the war if you will, he was made a big propaganda hero and the like. He liked it. Actually many of the antifa guys in the soviet camps were the hardcore wartime SS and old SA idiots. They just wanted easy because they had no honor. Every significant german POW was pressured by the soviets only a few decided like Graf, thats why Im pissed.
Im pissed at his betrayl of his friends, and personallly pissed because he became a communist because I hate communism. So thats why I dont like him.
Yes tahgut you are right there are no communist pinko studmuffingot intellectuals in America today, I was mistaken. :rolleyes:
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Yes tahgut you are right there are no communist pinko studmuffingot intellectuals in America today, I was mistaken. :rolleyes:
Are you saying there is a correlation between homosexual people and communism?
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OK Grun, I can respect your opinion about communism. I never liked it much either. But......
If you are unable to respect Graf because he chose communism. Does that mean you are unable to respect Ivan Kozhedub as well? Heck he started out as a communist. Didn't even have to defect, but he was the highest scoring allied ace of the war.
Why are Nazi pilots worthy of respect when communist pilots are not? Why even mention politics at all? I guess I'm trying to point out the hypocrisy in stating on the one hand "They were Germans, not Nazi's" while hating Graf for not staying true to his politics as a Nazi.
And I never said there were no pinko commie intellectuals, I asked who? So ... Who?
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Are you saying there is a correlation between homosexual people and communism?
Of course not Thrawn, just using the common old phrase about american communists.
Now as for american communists, lets just say I see them every day at my school both as students and teachers. They arent the "card-carrying" members of old but they persist quite openly on college campuses. They are the anti globalization, environment nuts, anti corporate, anti USA idiots you see that tear up Seattle. The most fascinating thing when you talk to them is they always say that if only Communism was done right..... Kinda like the Germans said "If only the Fuhrer knew" , I guess.
Tahgut I have no particular hatred for people who grew up in communism and had no other chioce, but I still hate communism. I know I cerainly wasnt asked if I wanted to be a little "Pioneer", a member of a mandatory nationwide communist youth group run by the government in Yugoslavia, had my little red bandana, blue hat and a very pretty enameled red star, the whole getup. :)
Anyway back to Graf, Im pissed at his betrayal of his comrades- I personally value loyalty and friendship a great deal. And Im pissed that he chose communism. Even his good friend Hartmann said it was Graf's own choice. So I guess thats my beef with Graf.
I hate people who betray their friends.
I hate poeople who choose communism.
And its not about him staying a Nazi, as you said there was a 100% decrease in that party on May 8 1945, but him saying true and loyal to his POW and wartime comrades. He betrayed them and their trust in him.
Im very happy how nicely this topic has gone, no insults or anything. :)
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Graf is a respectable warrior in the air but he did betray his friends.
I dont hold the same level of respect say for an allied pilot who gets 20 kills with odds 100 to 1 in his favor as I do say someone like Rudel or any of the Sturmjaeger aces.
I never cared for pac war stuff for just this reason. F4us, p38s and f6fs won the war in the pac but common was there ever a doudt?
I have lotsa of respect for japaneese pilots. In the early war the raf and in particular the poles showed the world as much about the warrior spirit as anyone else.
Dont missunderstand what I am saying they all deserve our respect and admiration but I believe keeping it in context.
I am not into hero worship but I have respect for the "struggle".
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GR,
>I hate people who betray their friends.
>I hate poeople who choose communism.
I totally can agree with your standpoint on this however being the superficial bastard that I am when it comes to sexy looking war machines, he had one helluva cool looking red nose 19 :D
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I am not into hero worship but I have respect for the "struggle".... In the early war the raf and in particular the poles showed the world as much about the warrior spirit as anyone else.
Ain't that the truth!
Every time i struggle with the BOB planeset I wonder how in hell they (the brits and the poles) managed to survive with rifle caliber guns in sub-par planes against the LW.
Goering was a dolt, and Kurt Tank is gay.
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Originally posted by Wotan
Graf is a respectable warrior in the air but he did betray his friends.
I dont hold the same level of respect say for an allied pilot who gets 20 kills with odds 100 to 1 in his favor as I do say someone like Rudel or any of the Sturmjaeger aces.
I never cared for pac war stuff for just this reason. F4us, p38s and f6fs won the war in the pac but common was there ever a doudt?
I have lotsa of respect for japaneese pilots. In the early war the raf and in particular the poles showed the world as much about the warrior spirit as anyone else.
Dont missunderstand what I am saying they all deserve our respect and admiration but I believe keeping it in context.
I am not into hero worship but I have respect for the "struggle".
I agree completely with the spirit of your post. I would add those Navy and Marine airmen who had to tangle with the Zeke in the early war using F4F's and in the case of the AAC the P-40.
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Nothing wrong with rooting for the under dog. But the whole warrior spirit thing hurt the Japanese and Germans far more then it helped them.
Herman Graff was a great pilot. Its not as if he betrayed his country men to the russians..or fought against them for the russians.
Apperenlty Pipps Priller(our 190a8 pilot) derrided him quite a bit. But he never served in a gulag. Hartmann was quite a bit more forgiving.
Graf was the first pilot to reach 200 victories. He did so befor Hartmann had any kills I believe.
He shot down 62 aircraft in september 1942 alone....
he has nothing to prove to any of us.......
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Originally posted by RRAM
Y barkhorn,y bauer, y "ansi" hahn, y mil mas...... nos ha jodido :D.....si tengo q nombrar a todos......
Sip, pero top ace del 190 sólo hubo uno: Otto Kittel.