Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: K West on December 21, 2001, 08:27:00 AM
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Are the people who say claim that any LW vs F4F/F6F/TBM's/F4U's matchup is hokey and never occured just basically "Defense of the Riech" centric or are conveniently ignoring anything that happened in the European that did not occur over Germany and at 25,000 feet?
What is the basis for some of these rather loud objections from some when it comes to fighting an F6F when they're in a 109?
Westy
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Because they dunno how to fight an F6F-5 and it doesn't fit with their perspective of being a LostWaffle piolet for ze Fatherland.
Brits had the Martlett... Guess what that was LostWaffles, that's right- the F4F-3 and F4F-4 and was used in the Channel on British carrier groups.
Same with F4Us and F6Fs.
-SW
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They were born 75 years too late and missed their chance at full immersion and 100% historical accuracy.
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I was wondering the same thing westy.. they are probably just sour becuase the hellcat eats the 109 up like candy. :)
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The G10 vs. F6F has grown on me. I enjoy it, just don't get too slow around the right hellcat driver. :)
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I got a chance to get into the CT several days ago and I liked it <shrug>. I had two of the best 190A8 sorties I ever had in a loong time. Of course it could have been because the MA had crashed and a lot of my kills were of folks who aren't used to the setup (icons) in the CT. I didn't hear any of the LW side complaining that particular night (at least it wasn't noticeably noisy). Names I saw that were having a good time as far as I know.. Raubvogl, Furious, Hajo, storm, several others. The allied guys who were on weren't complaining either. I did hear someone pop in and say they didn't like the plane choices, and that person is more allied than axis. I guess YMMV.
To me, it's an interesting change of pace to fight navy aircraft in the CT environment.
mauser
(wishing he could fly but have too many things to do for the holidays)
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Originally posted by Am0n:
I was wondering the same thing westy.. they are probably just sour becuase the hellcat eats the 109 up like candy. :)
Bf 109G-10 has 224 Kills of F6F-5
F6F-5 has 142 Kills of Bf 109G-10
You where waiting for this, right?
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Nope BigUC :) This really had nothing to do with any arena stats everyone. My question is honest in that I cannot understand how anyone can ignore the contributions and combat experienced by the RN FAA and the USN air in the North Afrika, Mediteranean, Italy, France and the Norway theatres.
Starting in March of 1944 the RN FAA used F4U-1's off of Europe as well as F4Fs, TBFs and F6-F-3/5's as well as thier own Seafires and other English made aircraft.
The USN got in on the ETO action with the USS Ranger making hit and run attacks with RN escorts in 1943. The USN and FAA CAPped the airspace over France starting with D-Day until the battle went beyond the range of the aircraft to be of any benefit. Once that happened most naval units, RN as well as USN, were transfered to the Indian/PAcific oceans to combat the IJN/IJAAF/IJA
I have pictures of F6F-5's loaded with rockets ready for take off for attacks on targets in France as well as the F6F-5 with four crosses for LW planes shot down over France. I've not found much info on the F6F-5N night fighers that flew out of Corsica yet.
Westy
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Originally posted by O'Westy:
as well as the F6F-5 with four crosses for LW planes shot down over France
Oooo!!! Ooo!!! Can you post those? I want them. I've been saving WWII images, and this is something that sounds really rare (and cool).
Thanks!
-SW
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Remember "Hostile Shores"?
That wasn't a fantasy scenario. FAA sent Hellcats, Corsairs, and Avengers against coastal targets in Norway.
[ 12-21-2001: Message edited by: funkedup ]
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Roger that Funkedup. I wasn't able to join in that scenario but the back ground is what got me interested in learning more of the lesser segements in some theatres. I say "lesser" cause I'm uh AmMeRiKan and things generally tended to be Yank-o-centric growing up :)
Right now the CT could be viewed as a pseudo Norway or "Operation Anvil-Dragoon" setup. :)
Westy
p.s. SW I'll definately post them tonight. They are taken from a PDF file. I'm still looking for more, as well as better copies of the two I have.
[ 12-21-2001: Message edited by: O'Westy ]
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Take a look at theis :
http://www.angelfire.com/fm/compass/Avenger.htm (http://www.angelfire.com/fm/compass/Avenger.htm)
http://www.angelfire.com/fm/compass/tbmdd.jpg (http://www.angelfire.com/fm/compass/tbmdd.jpg)
Seeker
[ 12-21-2001: Message edited by: Seeker ]
[ 12-21-2001: Message edited by: Seeker ]
Bah! How do you link (post?) to a picture on these things???
[ 12-21-2001: Message edited by: Seeker ]
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This is a good site too: http://www.fleetairarmarchive.net/Aircraft/Aircraftindex.htm (http://www.fleetairarmarchive.net/Aircraft/Aircraftindex.htm)
FAA had over 2000 Corsairs, over 1100 Hellcats, and over 900 Avengers. The Avengers fought just about everywhere, the Corsairs fought in the Pacific and Norway, and the Hellcats fought in the Pacific, Southern France, and Norway.
[ 12-21-2001: Message edited by: funkedup ]
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The Sea Fury is a damn good looking plane.
Not that this has any bearing on the discussion at hand.
F.
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Originally posted by Furious:
The Sea Fury is a damn good looking plane.
Not that this has any bearing on the discussion at hand.
F.
I agree, and it was really fast too. The fastest prop AC the RAF produced..I thik. Bu twasn't it introduced in like 1947...2 years after the war?
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Thanks. I'd seen the pix at those links. I'm trying to find pictures of aircraft anf air action specifically from the operation. Like these two. And they're damn hard to find. On the net anyway. I miss Dan/+Tiff from AW. I just may have to browse a book store or two to find anything indepth. :)
One is a picture of an F6F from another as they prepare for a mission off of Toulon. the other are the two pilots who share the same F6F-5 with thier four Axis kill markings as seen.
(http://www.townisp.com/~jugdriver/f6fa.gif)
(http://www.townisp.com/~jugdriver/f6fb.gif)
Westy
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Sweet! Thank you very much Westy. I don't suppose they come in a larger size though? If they do, if you could email 'em to me at weissdr1@yahoo.com, I'd appreciate it!
Thanks again, those are some great photos!
-SW
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While I could careless but in ct you'll have these usn planes launching from norwegian land based airfields and fighting over the baltic.
Aint quite the same thing as the lw defending Norway ports and shipping....... :)
in defending hazed its pour fantasy....
The plane match ups may not have been unheard of and despite the number of sorties the amount of combat between these planesets compared usaaf/lw is small.
With the planeset and terrains we have now this is as good as any.
I dont think its necessary to hype up the current planeset any more then its rl contribution to the airwar over europe.
The ct cms made a choice I dont see a problem with it. Lets go play :)
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I dont get it either, this is just one CT setup its not permanent and it did happend in WW2. Its just fine its not the end of the world, in fact its a nice break from the usual.
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I enjoyed the CT very much. Flying the A8 against the spitV and the hellkitty was fun!
Also......the Royal Navy was first to use the F4 on a carrier. Seems the USN thought at first the F4 was unfit for carrier duty. The Brits showed us otherwise <G>
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Originally posted by Hajo:
I enjoyed the CT very much. Flying the A8 against the spitV and the hellkitty was fun!
Also......the Royal Navy was first to use the F4 on a carrier. Seems the USN thought at first the F4 was unfit for carrier duty. The Brits showed us otherwise <G>
Would you mind pointing me to some documentation on this? The first 80 production models of the F4F-3 were destined for France and wound up in the FAA as did the next batch that was going to go to Greece getting their first kill Dec. 1940.
The initial US Wildcats that met the enemy at Pearl Harbor and Midway were land based but they were also in carrier squadrons as the F4F-3 transitioned to the F4F-4 with the folding wings.
The first carrier based engagement came Feb 20th 1942 when Butch O'Hare from the CV Lexington shot down 5 betties at Rabul.
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He means "F4"U Corsair, not "F4"F Wildcat.
The Royal navy pilots of Corsair Mk.Is were the first bunch of people who developed carrier landing methods for F4U series.
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Will try and find better and large pics. Those are what I have :(
"these usn planes launching from norwegian land based airfields"
If that is the setup then it shouldn't be, imo. I've not been in the CT lately and CV based planes should be only CV based.
Westy
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Was banging around the CT last night with HB, seems like a fair matchup with the planeset in there now. I was banging away at his G6 with a 51B for a bit and at low alt (where most fur takes place) they seem evenly matched.
Reading about F6F's flying against LW Iron brings to mind a plane I'd like to see added to AH (if they model the Bf 109E) and that is the 109T the carrier version of the "E" model.
Now before ya'll quote numbers and stats, I know it never saw the Graf Zepplin's flightdeck.
Hell! The Graf Zepplin never saw the open seas, but the 109T's slated for the 'GZ' did end up going to squadrons I believe it was in Finland (or somewhere up there anyway :))
Now the 109T was not produced in large numbers, but then neither was the F4U-C, and IMO it'd be kinda cool to have a CV based 109 (which btw, no other game has ever modeled)
The Bf 109T's performance would prolly be less than the Bf 109E's considering the added weight of beefed up gear and tailhook, so overall should not un-balance the arena greatly <---- This last paragraph is a joke, (for those humor impaired)
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There was at least one fight involving RN F6Fs and 109s over Norway. IIRC it was during one of the multi carrier attacks on the Tirpitz and the F6Fs from HMS Emperor got 2 109s without loss.
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mm, F6F's engaging 190s and 109s defending der Fatherland must have been a bit less common that a 190F8 with 2*250kg + 1*500kg eggs.
:D
Looking good: soon LW will have a jabo ride that rivals some of the allied ones :)