Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: Kweassa on June 20, 2002, 01:17:53 PM
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The high-yoyo is one of my favorite moves in pursuing planes with better low-mid speed maneuvering in turns. It helps gain pursuit angle all the while keeping the E-advantage and forcing the defender into tighter turns so he drains E a lot.
However, it's been some time since I've noticed the more experienced players quite often deploy a certain sort of counter-maneuver for high yoyos - as the attacker breaks off horizontal chase and angles up, begins the high-yoyo sequence, the defender seems to immediately stop turning, and breaks hard upwards turning into the attacker. Since the attacker was superior in E-status (thus choosing the high-yoyo for his pursuit), this seems to cause sort of a sudden vertical overshoot, creating a momentary attack chance for the defender.
Now, what gets me stumped is this. The most frequent cases I meet this situation is when flying my favorite 109G-10 against some experienced people in Spitfires. I know it's not a wise move to try and turn with a Spitfire, but I've always thought if you have a certain amount of confidence in managing the 109, you should try to follow the target, since no Spitfire would just fly straight for you to shoot at. After all, the coup-de-grace is what really matters.
But the tighter you pull the high-yoyo, the better you manage the move, it seems the more you are likely to get in trouble since the 109 momentarily spends all his E advantage in climbing+turning+adjusting angle for the decending part of the high-yoyo. While this happens, the Spitfire casually turns into you while you climb, and bears its guns to you long enough to bring you down - it handles better at low speeds, (fatally) stalls later than the 109, recovers control quickly with small amount of acceleration, and has guns that hit comfortably up to 500~600 yards. Geez, I know I'm whining, but sometimes the airways seem just too generous against low-speed Spitfires.. :(
Now, the only solution I thought of was when the enemy tries the counter move, I change my direction too, and head straight up, knowing the Spitfire will have to stall and head down faster than me. But this still seems to give only about 50% chance of success, since the Spit would stall first, but all the time before it stalls - it would still be shooting. Besides, after the Spit stalls, and I reverse down, the recovery time for regaining control takes a lot more in the 109, and the advantage in acceleration seems to be neutered because of this. As I recover control, the Spit is already turning away again, and I lost too much E to just go pursue it. I'd need to get alt-advantage again, the Spit would start turning again, and it's all back to the beginning of the whole BnZ sequence.
Now, I realize I would not have to go through this if I can knock out the target in my first boom pass. But this seems to suggest all the Spit has to do is just turn a few times and avoid a few shots, and no 109 will want to engage it after that. That's really demoralizing for people like me :(
Any suggestions on countering this 'counter move for High-yoyos'?
[Pic attached to explain better the situation I meet]
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That's a great question Kweassa. Good pics too. I was doing some training with a squaddie last night practicing Hi Yo-Yo's and he brought up this very question. I was the target flying the Spit and did a "you mean like this?" move to try this out and was thinking about this myself.
Typically I have a lot more energy than the other guy in these cases so that I don't have any trouble zooming away out of danger.
Here were some of my rambling thoughts I was going to try though:
(1) Go into a spiral zoom climb in the direction of the yo-yo. In your "figure 2" the Spit may have a chance at a snapshot but if your making it a high deflection shot with changing angles then it will be much harder for them to get a hit.
(2) In the case of a G10 vs. Spit V, or IX since you've got a better rate of climb you might try a "corollary" to #1? Go into a sustained (sustained meaning zero E loss) spiral climb to bleed his E and then drop back on him when appropriate.
(3) As they come up, level out or go into a shallow dive to gain energy. As they reach the top of their pullup or immelmann then go back into the vertical and execute a "pitch-back" or a hammerhead maneuver.
(4) As they come up, execute a zoom and pitch-back so that they have to execute more of an immelman to try and get their nose on you- in other words their wings/lift-vector ends up more in the horizontal plane than the vertical. The intention is to have gravity working against them so that that can't keep their nose pointed at you without stalling since they will be very low E.
Anyway, these were some of things I was thinking about trying.
Tango, XO
412th FS Braunco Mustangs
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I was thinking along the same lines as dtango...I started spending a lot of time in the 38 a few months ago...it seems to require similiar tactics vs the spitty. The two most common defenses were the split-s to the face shot...spitty looking to face shoot you as you re-engage from vertical...and the low energy "tail stand"...you describe. The whole logic seems to be pretty simple...let me get my hizooka's pointed at you while your "floating" and I'll take my chances. In both cases I found my best "defense while on offense" was a tight FLAT turn as I topped out. I'd zoom as far as I could then pop flaps and pull into a hard flat turn on the edge (usually a little nose up but not alot).
I found the spitty had a much tougher time with this then any zoom or spiral climb. The moment the spit tried to follow my turn in gunsight it seems to break the tailslide. Since I'm almost standing on the lower wing I've got great vis to rebounce. It obviously doesnt work well if you misjudged the relative E state (had a couple where spit climbed right up my prettythang) but the G10 has a decided edge over spit (or 38) in climb.
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Nice pics, they really help.
I do this counter my self, and I can add a couple of pointers from the opposing side:
1) What the Spit is doing is actually turning the fight into a verticle scissors, if you think about it. If you can, unload and continue up in a barrel roll.
2) It's a bit of a lasp gasp move, as normally the Spit only has enough E for one real attempt at the snap shot, after that, typicaly the Spit will go nose down in a low yo-yo to try and build speed up again. He knows you'll be coming down again, and at that moment, he'll be "E hoarding"; A spit can hold onto it's E like a Niki if he knows you have the initiative ( which isn't always the advantage it's made out to be).
3) The Spit's biggest advantage is that you lose sight of him
4) Then again, he'll lose sight of you during the nose down; so ultimatly, timing's more important than E management in this specific situation; you have to know when he'll roll over to make your move.
We're often on at the same time, I'd be happy to be a target drone for a half hour or so.
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Good pics.
In the third case you can do three things.
1. If you have a lot more E than the bandit, cash it in. Go for the vertical rope maneuver. Try to read when he is going to stall and break the zoom off early if you have to. Ideally you are heading down just before he stalls.
2. If you have a moderate E advantage you can keep going right tighten it into a chandelle a little above best climb speed. He will have to turn tighter than you and will either stall out or give up angles.
3. If you don't have much of an E advantage you can just pull up until the closure rate is zero, then when you reach best climb speed, just climb away from him.
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Based on your drawings, I'd say your problem is one of not staying behind the bandit's 3/9 line in the yo-yo.
If the High Yo-Yo is flown properly, the attacker maneuvers to the bandit's high six area prior to the re-entry. The reason for this is the attacker wants to control closure and angle off at the same time. To do that, he must maneuver to the bandit's six. Your drawing makes it look like you are flying out towards the defender's wingline...and thus giving him a chance to pull into you.
When the yo-yo is flown properly, it will be very difficult for a bandit who has remained in a defensive break to pull up and force a role reversal as you describe. Why? In most cases, he simply will not have the energy to do so.
There is one "yeah but". One defensive counter to the yo-yo is to roll into a steep bank to give the appearance of someone entering a defensive break. If the attacker yo-yo's off, the defender maintains the steep bank but does not pull any G. Then when the attacker commits his nose down, the defender pulls up into him.
How to prevent this from happening? When you yo-yo off, be sure you rotate your lift vector about 90 degrees away from the bandit's plane of maneuver. Initially, try not to pull up with your lift vector oriented towards the bandit at all. Once you see that your yo-yo is going to keep you behind his 3/9 line, then you can roll back into the bandit as needed.
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Andy,
So the issue here is actually moving from a lag pursuit curve to pulling lead while executing the hi yoyo?....in effect you create an overshoot in the vertical PRIOR to the counter by the spitty. He's really pulling up into your rear quarter not your front quarter based on the misjudged flight path the attacker flew on the hi yoyo.
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>> He's really pulling up into your rear quarter not your front quarter based on the misjudged flight path the attacker flew on the hi yoyo.<<
This may be a matter of semantics...but the point is to keep the bandit in YOUR front quarter (at the bandit's six) rather than moving forward on the bandit's wingline (which would put you more to the bandit's beam).
Here's a simplified diagram intending to show the difference in the two pull up flight paths. Blue is rolling 90 degrees away from the bandit turn before he pulls up. The result is increasing angle off but a move towards the bandit's high six area.
(http://webpages.charter.net/alfakilo/yo.gif)
Green begins his pull up while remaining banked in the bandit's direction. In the pull up, his angle off tends to remain constant and he stays out on the bandit's extended wing line.
To pull up into Green, the bandit will require less distance and degrees to turn. His pull will resemble a pitchback (oblique climbing turn). To pull up into Blue, the bandit will, in effect, have to do a half loop. The bandit will have to turn more degrees and pull more into the vertical to get up to Blue's altitude.
It should be obvious that it takes less energy for the bandit to reverse into Green than Blue.
If both Green and Blue flew identical pull ups (duration andG), Blue would gain more altitude relative to the bandit's plane of motion and would end up more to the bandit's six.
So...to fly the yo-yo, be sure to bank away from the bandit as you pull up. Maintain the pull up and let the bandit continue to turn as you move towards his extended high six. Approaching this high six area, roll back into the bandit and then reapply G as needed to pull down inside the bandit's turn. You may well have to follow with a Low Yo-Yo to regain closure, but at least you have prevented a flight path overshoot.
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Originally posted by Andy Bush
There is one "yeah but". One defensive counter to the yo-yo is to roll into a steep bank to give the appearance of someone entering a defensive break. If the attacker yo-yo's off, the defender maintains the steep bank but does not pull any G. Then when the attacker commits his nose down, the defender pulls up into him.
That's the counter I use in the P-38L when I face an attacker trying to use a High Yo-Yo maneuver.
There are times when I even stall my plane out when the attacking plane is starting to go nose down on the end of the High Yo-Yo. As the attacking plane starts to come down, I stall my plane inverted and catch the attacker as he comes down in front of my nose. If I miss him with my shots, the ease of the stall recovery on the P-38L lets me recover fast enough to raise flaps and latch on the attackers six and gain the advantage.
Ack-Ack
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Robert Shaw also explains "Lag Displacement Rolls" pretty well if you did not get Andy's explanation.
Thanks Andy!
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great stuff guys! ....more,give me mroe
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I would just unload when diving down from high yo-yo with opponent trying to pull up into me. Climb would be worst choice imho. He just bleeds hes E doing so and will be sitting duck when you reverse on him.
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fantastic guys.
i usually just sneak a peek and if i see the guy angling up i just keeeep climbing:) and wait for the stall.
ill read all the advice when i have time
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great thread...I noticed a number of Spits who just recentl learned this trick. To him it looks fairly simple. You did high yoyo and he sees a separation you gave him and he pulls, no more than that. With Hispanos taken into account he has a chance to win this one.
And Andy made a great point about 3-9 line. It was my mistake in most high yoyos.
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yeah those hispanos are deadly when u encounter them head on.
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I have see this as well. I am closing rapidly on a lower E (lower altitude as well) bandit and see the impending overshoot. I He startsa break and I go into a zoomand roll my wings in the direction of his break to watch him. I then change my lift vector in the direction of his heading. He then pulls hard into me trying for a snapshot. at this point I have a couple of options that I think worthwhile. I know he has spent even more of his energy and that is a definately plus for me in my P-47. Depending on other factors (altitude, position, numbers of other enemy) I would then roll my wings level and continue in the zoom my AC is already in. ( I am no longer in a yoyo, just trying to get him slower) If he chooses to attempt to follow, he will have to roll his AC 180 degrees and and attempt to pull into the the same attitude as my AC. Very rare that a lower E AC can do it and even rarer they will get an effective shot.
If the energy of the bandit is much closer to yours, or if the bandit is an AC that builds energy much faster than yours, then I reccomend a pure vertical manuever to regain all of your energy in the form of altitude. I am assuming on you are in a 109G10 and he is in an AC that like a LA7, or Spit9 which builds energy very fast and can turn inside your radious. Just exactly what I face in a P-47 in the MA. Only your AC climbs much better than mine:)
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The last figure seems to state the initial problem all over again.
The answer remains the same. DO NOT fly out in front of the defender!!
Let's try a different approach. If you as the attacker see the defender beginning a hard break...and you do not want to attempt a snapshot or a high angle tracking shot...then it behooves you to make the decision to reposition as soon as possible.
Dealing with high aspect positional problems is best done early. As the old saying goes...better several small yo-yos than one big one.
So, if you find yourself in this position...the bandit making a hard break into you as you dive down in your BnZ attack. It may be best to consider the game is up...and pull off immediately.
If you do, then maneuver to his "high six"...not out in front of his 3/9 line. If you've screwed up and waited too long, then use the last ditch maneuver known as the "Quarter Plane", essentially an exaggerated high yo-yo where your goal is to prevent a 3/9 overshoot.
The SimHQ "Perspective" articles explain this maneuver.
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Originally posted by Andy Bush
The last figure seems to state the initial problem all over again.
The answer remains the same. DO NOT fly out in front of the defender!!
Let's try a different approach. If you as the attacker see the defender beginning a hard break...and you do not want to attempt a snapshot or a high angle tracking shot...then it behooves you to make the decision to reposition as soon as possible.
Dealing with high aspect positional problems is best done early. As the old saying goes...better several small yo-yos than one big one.
So, if you find yourself in this position...the bandit making a hard break into you as you dive down in your BnZ attack. It may be best to consider the game is up...and pull off immediately.
If you do, then maneuver to his "high six"...not out in front of his 3/9 line. If you've screwed up and waited too long, then use the last ditch maneuver known as the "Quarter Plane", essentially an exaggerated high yo-yo where your goal is to prevent a 3/9 overshoot.
The SimHQ "Perspective" articles explain this maneuver.
yes ideally you never ever want to overshoot your enemy, but guess what. This is Aces High and the player will see countless scenarios presented to him. Including overshoots. Best to be prepared and to store some evasion tactics in his bag of tricks
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There is no excuse for flying ahead of the bandit's 3/9 line.
Here is your diagram again.
(http://webpages.charter.net/alfakilo/1d.jpg)
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well my artistic ability in paint is surely lacking. Your ego certainly is not. The good thing is you do really bring alot of knowlege to this forum ( often at the expense of someones toes).
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In RL, we don't critique the person. We critique the maneuver. It's a technique I learned at TOPGUN nearly 25 years ago.
This discussion is not about anyone or their diagrams. It's only about BFM. How to fly BFM correctly...and how not to make mistakes.
My purpose in being here is to help folks fly good BFM and not make mistakes.
My apologies to anyone who thought I was being critical of them.
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You flew at Top Gun Andy?
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Yes and no.
When I was a USAF Fighter Weapons School instructor, we had a deal with TOPGUN where one of us would attend the school as a "monitor"...the idea being that we would go through the entire syllabus and exchange ideas and techniques with the TOPGUN instructors. We did not fly student sorties, but we did bum rides in the back seat of the F-5F and TA-4 to observe these sorties.
At the end of the course, we flew as a "guest" to supplement the TOPGUN instructor force in the final syllabus mission (a multi-bogey many v many go-for-it over San Clemente Island).
I also flew in other TOPGUN missions as well. But, I am not a TOPGUN graduate! I just lucked out and had the chance to fly there a number of times.
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Andy, I understand what you are saying. However, I often use that exact move that you are saying I should *NOT* use to sucker spits into coming up after me. I start my yo-yo late to give them an opportunity to come up after me, then I merely enter a spiral climb instead of beginning the 'diving turn' part of the low yo-yo.
I'll also pull up into a plane that is trying to BnZ me to guage how much energy they have (feint my typical move, then if they zoom, I'll follow them up for a little ways). The 109G-10 is real good at climbing though, if I was in a poor climbing plane I'd probably get my bellybutton shot off. It does seem to work to a lesser extent in the other 109s though.
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Urchin,
I think you have 2 different situations...one where the attacker is in effect angle fighting and manuevering to maintain a rear quarter aspect with the intent of creating a shot...and your situation where you have enough stored energy to deny a shot due to range limitations for a guns solution. I'm guessing the "rule" there is "don't fly in front of the 3-9 line if you'll get your plane chewed up doing it"...obviously the rope is a classic tactic and I've found utilizing during the "mid-game" makes it much more effective than at the merge.
As for ammo's earlier comment, I've often been on the recieving end of Andy's "corrections". I always have found is comments even handed and fair. I know his contribuations back during the original training tour here were invaluable to many.
When you do something for a living you treat it a bit differently than in a game, especially if a mistake buys you ~ 96 cubic feet of space under a well manicured lawn.