Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: ZeroPing on June 21, 2002, 02:17:33 AM
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really? why? what is good about F6F vs Zero? it cant turn with it at all
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Come to the CT in Pacific Arena setups.
That'll give you a whole new meaning to the word "joust".
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For starters it's faster, you can disengage at will, you decide how the fight progresses, with e you can turn once with a zeke and then disengage.
In a zoom with a zeke on your 6 the zeke should drop away a lot faster allowing you to time your reversal on to a stalling out zeke.
It's also a lot stronger than the zeke (in RL).
An F6F versus a zeke should never lose, all things being equal at start of engagement.
wipass
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Your statement about 'the F6F not being able to turn with the A6M' is sort of incorrect.
At 350 MPH IAS (300 MPH+ IAS in terms of roll), the F6F is more maneuverable than the A6M is in nearly every axis of maneuver.
F6Fs are made to fight at 300+ MPH. The second the A6M wanders into that realm of speed, the F6F outperforms it.
If an A6M is performing amazing evasives at 200 MPH, it doesn't matter. Because an A6M at 200 MPH cannot travel enough distance to keep it out of the gun arc of a well flown F6F travelling at 350 MPH (where the F6F pilot can maneuver his aircraft just fine in almost any axis without having to 'work hard' in terms of applied stick force).
Add in the fact that...
Every 16 F6Fs were 16 Naval Aviators who trained from day one to attack in pairs and/or 4 aircraft elements, and the element leaders had schooling in fighting as a 16 aircraft force.
Most A6Ms used the doctrine of 'a really hot stick backed up by 2 lesser sticks', fighting in groups of 3 at the most.
...the average speed of air to air combat increased as the war dragged on. The F6F was a mid war design. The A6M was a pre war design - maybe the best pre war design of them all - and an excellent design. But the F6F design had the advantage of experience.
That, combined with better US *doctrine* (not pilot skill, no one go crazy on me) spelled doom for the A6M and A6M pilots in general.
If an A6M took alot of hits, the pilot was probably a casualty. The survivability for an F6F pilot if his aircraft took heavy damage was much higher...so your pilots have a better chance of gaining experience and staying alive.
So when some very experienced Japanese pilots die in action, their replacement face a more hostile environment, and a much lower chance of surviving to become very experienced pilots...
Even Sakai said that as a group the teamwork of USN/USMC F4F pilots was far superior to that of the IJN/IJA pilots.
Think of it in terms of this - take 16 good AH pilots, and have them train in the A6M3 for a duel vs. 16 F6Fs. Only let them train together in groups of 3. Take 16 different good AH pilots and let them train in the F6F for a duel vs. 16 A6M3s. Let them train as a group of 16.
I'll put my $$$ on the F6Fs every single time. Maybe you should arrange this, and look at the AH films of the duel. It would be a cool learning experience.
Mike/wulfie
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A good Zero pilot can get an f6f...Let him get E on you and when he decides to come down for a 6 shot......Keep speed low for snap turns and taunt him every time he misses.If he's like most f6f pilots after a taunt,he will come in with less E every pass.And when u decide for the shot put the nose down and get some speed for his overshoot then you paint his sorry Ami butt!!!
*Disclaimer...Cavalear would never fall for this...:)
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That's just waiting for F6F's mistake. And what if he kills the zeke before making one ? Zeke will be on the defensive most of the time.
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Zekes stalls?:rolleyes: :rolleyes:
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Hellcat was already in development before the first Zero was examined. The captured Zero confirmed design decisions already made by Grumman, but to say it was purpose-designed to beat it is likely wartime propaganda.
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Stalling zero's ? ive seen em flying like frisbees
really funny to see that
they twist but still flying it's amazing
:rolleyes:
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What Kieren said, however, there is alittle truth to "developed to beat the Zero"....
US Naval Archieves:
Developed from a project started by the company to evolve a successor to the F4F Wildcat, the Grumman F6F Hellcat benefitted in the design stage from early operational experience of US Navy pilots in the Pacific theatre, and from a feedback of information from the Euro- pean Allies who had then been involved in war against the Axis for some 18 months.
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Thanks for the :rolleyes: lazs
so if it can't keep up and continue climbing with the F6F, what happens to it ultimately, it hovers ? :rolleyes:
or does it stall out (stall not spin) or does the pilot have to get the nose down ? either way he's bugged out and you are above him,
or if not then what ?
wipass
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Originally posted by wipass
Thanks for the :rolleyes: lazs
so if it can't keep up and continue climbing with the F6F, what happens to it ultimately, it hovers ? :rolleyes:
or does it stall out (stall not spin) or does the pilot have to get the nose down ? either way he's bugged out and you are above him,
or if not then what ?
wipass
Thats not lazs.
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And what if the F6F pilot(s) fly in pairs and dont listen to the taunts?
Yep, lots of burning IJN.
There is a reason that the USAF didnt fly Sopwith Camels in Korea, despite the fact the Camel can easily out turn an F-86 or a Mig-15.
Think about it.
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Havent flown the F6 much here in AH but it was my main ride in AW and zeke's were easy meat for F6's in there. The little I have flown of the F6-5 here in AW it seems to be, if anything, superior to the F6 of AW, which makes sense because the AW F6 was the F6-3.
The only time zekes are a danger is if you got low and slow around one with no room to get some E back. Even running into a zeke Co-alt was no worry, just get the nose down, pick up some E and dont give him any lead turn angles. Keep the fight verticle, NEVER flat or going down, always going UP. Zoom through, go into climbing spirals, high long loops, ropes, zooms & hammerhead and you cant lose against a zeke. Even if the zeke gets a few snap shots the F6 can take A LOT more hits than the zeke can. When he break turns, which he will do, you can follow a 1/4 or 1/2 of the turn with him and get a shot or two off, thats all it takes to drop a zeke. If you miss, extend and go back into the verticle. Stay fast and keep the fight verticle, always going up.
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Originally posted by wipass
so if it can't keep up and continue climbing with the F6F, what happens to it ultimately, it hovers ? :rolleyes:
Bassically....yes :p
Just kidding you, of course :D ;) :D
On a more serious note, the start of this tread kind of reminds me a discussion I had the other day with a newbie in the training arena regarding the Spitfire IX and Fw190A8 ;). Sure, the A8 is no turner (at low speeds), and the spit will be hard to kill, but starting from a Co-E start, you should blew it bigtime to lose such a fight :)
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'sniff...' 'sniff...' "Nice looking Cheeze Ball... Naaaa, not today..... I'm not that stupid"
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lol.. how dare you insult me like that. I am not Lazs, Or lazs2, or whatever number he will have next, I am 100X better ;)
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Laz is a moron
just forgive him
:)
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The fact is, turning ability is next to useless in WW2 air combat.
I don't mean the kind of flying we do in the MA, I mean in actual air battles, many planes fighting many planes. While a lot of fun, the kind of flying done by most of us in the MA is not representative of "standard" WW2 air battles.
Why don't you turn in WW2 air combat like we do in the AH MA? If you slow down to turn with one guy, some other guy will kill you. Fly in a scenario sometime and you should see this point demonstrated very, very well. 80-90% of scenario deaths typically come from a guy who doesn't see his attacker until it's too late. It even happens to the "aces". You think keeping track of 5-6 enemy planes in the MA is tough? Try keeping track of 20! And remember, it only got harder in the real deal. It was much, much safer to just keep your speed up and not "dogfight" at all.
The fact that the F6F could turn reasonably well has NOTHING to do with the Zero. It can turn well because its designers wanted it to have a low stall speed and really docile stall characteristics (remember this is a plane designed to land on carriers) without sacrificing things like range or payload. So, they put a really big wing on it (this huge wing is a part of why the F6F is so slow compared to other US fighters, too). The good turning ability was essentially a by-product. The F6F was first and foremost designed to be the "perfect" carrier fighter, which by WW2 standards it was. I think the "designed to beat the zero" part is just a myth, or good PR from Grumman.
In this light the Zero is a total piece of junk compared to the F6F. The F6F can outrun, outclimb, outdive, and outrange the Zero. It accelerates quicker in a dive, holds that speed longer in a zoom, has a better weapon set with more ammo, is much tougher, and will easily outmaneuver the Zero at higher (read: combat) speeds. Add the declining average skill of the Japanese pilots and you have a recipie for slaughter.
J_A_B
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I have a question about these two in the game. I have never understood how the zeke could have such a limited foward down view. Frome photo,s I have seen, the zeke had a very, short nose. The f6f has a vastly better view. Did they set up higher or something?.
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Funny thing is that in the six or so tours after the F6F-5 was added to AH, the A6M5b had a positive K/D ratio against it.
Too many people just like to turn, and that plays right to the A6Ms hands.
Its gotten better since then.
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jab, wolfie, tmastadon , good posts and points, lazer sorry :)
laz, you plonker (said nicely) , experience here is the key, turn once with a ZEKE, then gain the advantage again, don't turn fight a zeke, it equals a death.
wipass
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Hey guys, do you know that in Australia, we actually have Saburio Sakai (spelling) real life combat A6M2!
I saw it the other day..... a nice bird.
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<> -Karnak
Interesting stat, but as I thought of it the stat can be misleading making people think the Hellcats are losing to Zekes in 1v1 battles. Like someone else touched upon, the MA is a far cry from the real battles of WW2 where there was no continuous parade of aicraft coming in at you. I would venture a guess that since the Hellcat isn't the fastest of aircraft out there and the incredibly busy skies we have in the MA, the Hellcat probably gets forced to a lower altitude and e-state at times where a Zeke can dive down on the Kitty. A Zeke with altitude and speed on a Hellcat is going to be a very tough opponent unless the Hellcat has room to dive away. Someone else touched upon flying the Hellcat in the CT in a Pacific War planeset and seeing how it fares...way different and much better.
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Easymo-
I can't speak for the Zero, as I too believe that is an awfully short nose to block so much view, but... Yes, the F6F was set up to have an exceptional view over the nose. The cockpit is high, and if my memory is correct there was even downthrust in the engine specifically to help the view over the nose on carrier approaches.
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In a Hellcat / Zero matchup; an F6F flown correctly will always win. (Hint: B&Z)
In a Hellcat /Zero matchup: an F6F flown incorrectly will always lose. (Hint T&B)
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Ive killed many F6fs with a zeke 1 on 1 and in furballs
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S!
On a related topic:
The Ki61 Tony is a terrific match for the F6f. Fights between these two aircraft are a real contest.
Of course, the Tony is not carrier bourne.
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ZeroPing,
When you flew the F6F you said it "I can't turn with it at all" then you say "Ive killed many F6fs with a zeke 1 on 1 and in furballs"
So.....? were they turning??? duh!
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actually "laz".... 100 times better or not.... now that everyone knows who you are...and who you are not... No one cares what you think. But you knew that didn't you?
lazs
Public Relations Officer for the BK's
We are not recruiting.
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Ya Lazs, You nailed that one right on the head. Anyways wipass, I do have a tad bit experience considering I turnfight a6m's with a 38. You can't just say "This plane outturns that plane" and leave it at that
There is more too it, and if you would like to learn, Give me a hollar in MA ;)
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Another issues facing the IJN pilots in WW2 was alititude, at high alt the hellcat out performed the zero in most catagories, even turn performance was close I believe. So the IJN/IJA pilots had the problem of either A) giving the USN pilots the alt advantage or B) climbing up to meet them and suffering the performance penalties.
Also historically speed was a more deciding factor in combat than turning radius. :)
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Someone mentioned that turning ability was not an important factor at all. Well, for an F6F with a Spit IX on its tail, that does not quite fit.
However, Speed and acceleration are very important factor, especially if the difference between the two planes is big enough to allow one of them to draw away after some hard maneuvers.
In AH, one is often confronted with a non-historical gaggle of bandits. In such an engagement, turning may keep you alive, simply because you never manage to get up enough pace to get away. In there, the Zeke shines. But 1 on 1 I would put my money on the F6F.
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Steven,
The number of kills each of those aircraft got in the five tours pretty much eliminates that kind of distortion. A6M5bs were wining more than 50% of the 1 on 1 encounters with F6F-5s. I know that I certainly have found the F6F-5 to be an easy kill in the A6M5b, but that is simply due to misuse of the F6F-5.
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Karnak,
I don't really know, but you may be right. But I find true 1v1's rare in the MA.
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When you flew the F6F you said it "I can't turn with it at all" then you say "Ive killed many F6fs with a zeke 1 on 1 and in furballs"
i said IT cant turn with it at all... IN the MA (yes at 350 mph but how long will that last? not long) so..... duh!
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"i said IT cant turn with it at all... "
You are correct. I should have been more careful.
My only defense is your somewhat 'twisted' syntax that makes the sentence hard to read. But that's a small issue.
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The best way to see the difference is try a TOD or the CT and fly the F6F with a wingman vs them.
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My only defense is your somewhat 'twisted' syntax that makes the sentence hard to read. But that's a small issue.
Always had a problem with making hard sentences make sense to other people ;)