Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: RRAM on June 21, 2002, 08:31:40 AM
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Ok, lets see.
I've been having quite serious trouble lately on my ropes and vertical crossings where I use to crash a lot into the other plane...too much because I always try to give some clearence with the other player. I've crashed in vertical crossings at least 5 times in 3 days,and I've been killed in all of them...and in most of them I'd have sweared I had NOT collided at all with the other plane.
I don't use film that much so I never could be sure about it, but today I've got the chance to see it. I saw a La5 killing a friendly, when I saw the name "fariz" in the text buffer, I hit immediately the Filmer and engaged him -I love filming fights against great pilots :)-. We (Fariz and us, we were two knits ;)) had a very nice fight indeed ( again, Fariz, nice moves!), wich ended abruptly in a way I'm too familiar with lately...vertical cross, crash, and bye bye.
Again I had my doubts. In fact I was all too sure I had never touched him. Turned out I was right ;)
Film is
here (http://galeon.com/illumm/film29.zip) .
The film is of the whole engagement, I tried to cut the single scene of our cross and put it into a different film, but dunno why the film editor doesn't work as intended, and the enemy plane is not where it should be.
In that film you can check the vertical cross and see I NEVER hit Fariz's La5FN, at all. I've taken the screenshot of the cross so you can see we never touched each other:
Slightly before crossing:
(http://galeon.com/illumm/1.gif)
Just after crossing:
(http://galeon.com/illumm/2.gif)
As you see, my tail (wich fell later) stays well clear from Fariz's plane.
You can check the film too, pause on the cross moment and check it. In no angle it shows any kind of collision.
Fariz said in the text buffer he had not hit me. He also told me later that, in his FE he'd have said that he had not collided with me either.
In the end, it seems, my plane fell because...nothing. I never got hit, and I didn't touch that La5.
So, well, is there any explanations on this?...is the only fight I've filmed with this end, but I've died several times in a similar fashion -and I think I'm not the only one-.
So, well if in my FE I didn't collide, in his FE he didn't collide with me, and if he didn't hit me...what happened?.
Thanks in advance :)
[edited] links were not working, uploaded to other server, and added a second pic to better illustrate my point.
[edited2] Hblair, there will be no augering in this thread, of anyone, if you give an honest opinion, look at the proof I've posted and stop posting stupid personal offtopic stuff. Thank you.
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It's been a long time since we had a good knee-slappin' RAM thread. :) Wonder how long this will go til it augers in.
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Hi,
I can't answer your questions directly but I'm a bit dubious about the whole collision thing also. Common consensus as you point out, is that your FE will show the collision and that in effect collisions are avoidable. I've no film to back it up but I know I've flown through the middle of planes before without any damage (rarely though) plus like you, no collision on my FE but a completely destroyed aircraft after the merge (seemingly more damage than 1 snap shot could inflict). I've only been here since Feb/March though so what do I know? ;) I'll be watching this thread with great interest.
Cheers
Witless/Trikky
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Looks like the bullets wizzing by you might have sawed your tail off?
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Originally posted by Ripsnort
Looks like the bullets wizzing by you might have sawed your tail off?
There were/ is no hit sound, at all, on my plane, and the bullet trails you see in the shots were mine, not his :)
and in any case Fariz assured me online he had got no hits on me at all. :)
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Ok, I can't contain it.
It has to be the backwards firing typhoon hack!
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Why do some expect perfection regarding AH? Don't ya know that nothing in this life is perfect, especially computers, the internet and most assuredly, HT:)
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I think Ram deserves an explanation personally...its clear that they had plenty of clearance of one another.
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Fariz has said he typically has 700ms ping. A ping that high produces weird effects like tails being sawed off with the shooter pointing away etc. things.
My guess is that fariz did hit you and his lag played tricks on your FE. If you go into fariz's plane in film viewer you'll notice he's pointing at your plane and shooting.
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As a jug driver I get more headons then I would care to admit to. I have found that anytime you go nose to nose with another driver it's a crap shoot. Someimes your number comes up and you fly away with the kill, others times you crap out. Lat night I was up in a B-26, which is verry uncommon for me but fun all the same, and I turned into an attack from Pinner in a 109. On my FE I was a fire ball and he just kept on flying. In short, HO at your own risk.
Avid
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Hblair: I won't answer you as your attitude deserves. In fact I won't answer you at all.
Originally posted by Rude
Why do some expect perfection regarding AH? Don't ya know that nothing in this life is perfect, especially computers, the internet and most assuredly, HT:)
I don't expect perfection rude. I certainly don't. :)
But I would assume that what that film shows is not correct (you could call it a bug?), and is not an one-time event. It happens more than what I would like, so I've reported it so it can be explained and/or fixed if it is a bug (which I would say it is).
Rude, If found something is bassically not right -I would say that what the film shows is not right-, I filmed it and posted it into a reasoned thread so it may be corrected by HTC if possible.
What do you suggest me to do, Rude?. Ignoring it and not reporting it at all, so if there is a possible fix, it doesn't happen because noone has posted proof?.
Anyway I'm running off topic here. Just I am extremely surprised at some answers I see.
P.S. Thanks Rip...
Originally posted by MrRiplEy[H]
Fariz has said he typically has 700ms ping. A ping that high produces weird effects like tails being sawed off with the shooter pointing away etc. things.
My guess is that fariz did hit you and his lag played tricks on your FE. If you go into fariz's plane in film viewer you'll notice he's pointing at your plane and shooting.
Reasoned answer, but still misses the point MrRipley. Fariz said he didn't hit me, and In the film there are no soulds from bullet hits, at all.
Even with extreme lag, the "pings" of the hits are heard in the game and in the film. There are no such pings, so I assume there are no hits. And I have the own fariz saying he's not hit me.
so...no-- Nope, Fariz hitting me is not an explanation as far as I can tell :)
Add to the fact,that this is happening with more guys. Yesteday happened twice to me, and I was sure at the moment I had not crashed at all (but as I got no film to back my words, I simply say what I think, nothing else)
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Originally posted by MrRiplEy[H]
Fariz has said he typically has 700ms ping. A ping that high produces weird effects like tails being sawed off with the shooter pointing away etc. things.
My guess is that fariz did hit you and his lag played tricks on your FE. If you go into fariz's plane in film viewer you'll notice he's pointing at your plane and shooting.
Yes, but do not explain this one. If we crash on my FE, I die, not him. On my FE we were clear, but really close. I also did not saw any pings sprites.
Probably explanation is that I pinged him when we were really close, because I had few ammo, and fired only when were REALLY close. Did not saw pings, but when very close it happens sometimes.
Fariz
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Yup, I see the problem... it's that damn Dweeb9 you're in and that Lame7 Fariz is in.
Two dweebs can not occupy the same airspace at any one time, otherwise it offsets the balance of the Dweebiverse and planes randomly fall apart based on their dweebiness.
Atleast that's how I think it works.
-SW
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Originally posted by Fariz
Probably explanation is that I pinged him when we were really close, because I had few ammo, and fired only when were REALLY close. Did not saw pings, but when very close it happens sometimes.
Fariz
thanks for posting ,fariz :).
Humm, I know you fired close...but if you saw no pings...and in the film there are no hit sounds...
That would mean you didn't hit me with the guns. Hit sounds are played in the game, aswell in films. No sounds of pings in this film at all :(
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Originally posted by AKSWulfe
Yup, I see the problem... it's that damn Dweeb9 you're in and that Lame7 Fariz is in.
Two dweebs can not occupy the same airspace at any one time, otherwise it offsets the balance of the Dweebiverse and planes randomly fall apart based on their dweebiness.
Atleast that's how I think it works.
-SW
Wulfe, may be this theory is correct, but not this time. Actually I was in la5 :)
Fariz
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Originally posted by RRAM
thanks for posting ,fariz :).
Humm, I know you fired close...but if you saw no pings...and in the film there are no hit sounds...
That would mean you didn't hit me with the guns. Hit sounds are played in the game, aswell in films. No sounds of pings in this film at all :(
If ping makes dammage, you hear dammage sound, not ping. At least that is how I think it works.
If I filmed it we could find out what it was. Not easy with one side film though.
I fill download your film and check anyway.
Edit: Ram, your link do not work.
Fariz
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I think anyone with a ping over 500 should be auto-ejected from the game with a pop up saying "Get a better connect".
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Ah, damn... that's what I get for not looking at the icon. La7 and La5 are both a grey fuselage, right? But La7 has the bars on the aft fuselage?
-SW
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Originally posted by RRAM
Hblair: I won't answer you as your attitude deserves. In fact I won't answer you at all.
Just kidding with you RAM. :)
On a serious note, from a quick glance, looks like something that would be connection related I guess.
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Originally posted by Fariz
If ping makes dammage, you hear dammage sound, not ping. At least that is how I think it works.
Humm no, if someone hits you, you hear the hits, even when you don't get serious damage (wich is the big BANG!)
At least in other films I've played I hear every time I'm hit ,even while the hit doesn't damage anything. :confused:
Anyway, I got my horizontal stabilicer cut off. That is dramatic damage, and is something wich should sound, but In the film there is no hit sound at all, neither a BANG nor nothing. So, in the end, no, I don't think I got damaged by bullets because the lack of damage sound. :)
Edit: Ram, your link do not work.
Fariz
Just tested it, download is ok in this end. Try again :)
P.S. and if it still doesn't work, mail me at ebringas@airtel.net ,I'll send it to you via email. :)
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Originally posted by Ripsnort
I think anyone with a ping over 500 should be auto-ejected from the game with a pop up saying "Get a better connect".
I can't.
I already paying $70 per month for dial up, to the best local ISP. To get better I shall move to some other country.
Fariz
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OK. First off I want to say I’m not here to prove or disprove you claim. I’m only here to provide what I know about the collision model and film system so the rest of you can make an informed decision of your own.
If you are flying around making smooth maneuvers and are filming it, on play back you will notice some jerkiness in the play back that wasn’t there in real-time. This is because the film is only a sampling of the original flight, not an exact duplication. Meaning every X number of frames, the film recorder samples the current state of the simulation and serializes it to file. However, it is a lossy capture. There are data points in between the sampling that are not stored. The film is only an approximation of the original flight, not an exact duplication. EVENTS such as damage and collision are written irregardless of the sampling. The sampling is only for positional data. So all the events are stored without loss. So even though the flight path is not an “exact” duplication, the event of collision was stored. That’s how the film recorder functions as far as I understand it. Now before you say that is BS and the film recorder is broken if it doesn’t EXACTLY reproduce the flight path you need to consider the trade-offs that always have to be made in any design decision. If the film recorder tried to capture, package, and write to file the exact position and orientation of every object in the simulation for EVERY single frame, then your frame rate would be brought to its knees. The film recorder would be basically unusable during online combat. In order to maintain a reasonable frame rate during recording, the positional data must be sampled. Sampling is always going to intale data loss.
Now, keeping that in mind, lets look at an exaggerated example for illustrative purposes:
Two aircraft are flying at a reasonable speed with one aircraft curving up at the beginning of a loop, and the other curving down at the top of a loop. Their flight paths trace to smooth curves that intersect at the point of collision.
(http://www.e-mystudio.com/ah/example1.gif)
This flight is filmed by one of the planes. During the film recording, these two flight path curves are sampled at regular intervals.
(http://www.e-mystudio.com/ah/example2.gif)
During playback, the aircraft positions are interpolated across the sampled data points. Due to data loss during sampling, the two flight paths in playback do not exactly intersect anymore. There would be a gap showing between the aircraft.
(http://www.e-mystudio.com/ah/example3.gif)
However events such as collision are not sampled but are saved no matter what. So the collision effect is still in the playback even though it looks like it was only a near miss.
So what you need to realize about the film system is that it IS an exact recording of events (i.e. text, explosions, collisions, damage, etc…) but it is only a sampled approximation of position and orientation. That’s not really a bug, but a design tradeoff in order to minimize the frame rate impact of filming during online combat.
Hope this information is helpful.
Regards,
Wab
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Makes sense to me Wab. In the CADD world, curves and arcs are not what they appear, they're actually a series of little lines that make up the curve, and depending on the descretization levels (Sag) is what you end up with in your scenario (though unrelated directly)
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Hummm, very nice post, AKWabbit, and is one that can explain what happened in my case and why in the film we don't collide.
I still think I avoided Fariz in the game by a narrow, but enough margin. But is my own interpretation of what happened, and subjective at that. Some other times my perception on what has happened has failed, so I guess this is yet another instance...in the end maybe I've claimed AH is buggy while I know that there's nothing more buggy than my own perception (but just sometimes, heh? ;))
So who knows ;maybe I didn't really avoid Fariz...and so far the only solid way to explain what happened -other than it being a bug, which I'm not in the position to prove either and which after your explanations seems not to be :)- is what you say. You seem to know the film system pretty well, so, if you tell me this is what happened, then I only but can believe you :)
The thing that's sure at this point is that I must avoid crossing so near of the other planes Thanks for the post. :)
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Good post Wabbit.
Very clear explanation.
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I think you are right on AKWabbit.
Sampling rate affects the precision of the play back.
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Wabbit is correct on the way things work.
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Nice one wabbit
It's possible that Fariz's lag did play a role in the mystery.
http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=56440
In that thread jarbo posted an image depicting how net lag effects what one sees on thier FE.
With his ~700ms connect it's possible the collision was detected by yer FE after the pass as positional updates caught up and were compared.
Remember, an aircraft isn't exactly where you see it because of netlag. Sometimes the difference in actual position and where you see the aircraft is one length of the aircraft. Or it could be 5-6 lengths of the aircraft. A difference of 1aircraft length can be the difference in a collision or miss on your FE.
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im with ripsnort over 500 ping dump um. chasin fairiz is like shootin at space ghost.
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I don't agree. Next move would be that people want dump people whos ping is more than 400 etc. Finally there would be only players from USA. Best but maybe impossible solution would be another gameserver for european players which would be located somewhere in europe.
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Originally posted by hitech
Wabbit is correct on the way things work.
There it is, then, the explanation . Thanks and Hitech and AKWabbit :).
Thanks everyone for the posts, too :)
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Hi,
Nice post Wabbit, so good even I could understand it. Makes perfect sense now, thanks.
Cheers
Witless/Trikky
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To be honest I am extremely close to deleting my account in AH, and never play it again till I get better connect (which may mean I will never play it again).
From the first months in AH and till today, more or less often, I am accused of cheating, using my net lag for my advantage etc. I never did it; actually, I specially do not shot planes which are clearly in net warp. If I shot them by mistake, I always ask the person who I killed if he wants this kill back, and several time I returned kills to such pilots. More than that, when I switched from ISP with 900ms lag to 700ms lag, I found, that my k:d became almost 1.5 times better. It is easy to explain, just imagine how you feel when you always need to predict what someone will do, instead of reacting on his decisions.
This post is not a whine, is not a threat or anything. Try to understand, I am just tired. I use to turn all those accusations into a joke, but after getting it 1000 times it really not funny.
When I read some post like the Ripsnort posted here, I am really frustrated. I pay for this game, I am part of this community from the first day of it, I tried not to be just a user, but more than that, helping people, making game more fun for them, giving suggestions for games improvement etc. May be I am not the best in that, but at least I am trying. Saying something like "lets ban all who has lag more than 500ms" for me is like to say "change the color of your skin, because I do not like the one you have". Actually for me it is easier to do the last one than first one, it is not my fault I live in a country which has net in such bad state.
In my understanding, players with bigger lag is not such a terrible problem. Actually, in AH it does not ruin the players game as much, as some people use to say. When someone lose to me, that is normally due to mistakes, not because I have such a bad lag. But I can't prove it.
From the other hand if it really true, and my existance in this game is such a pain for other players -- just say it, and I will go. I do not want to fly here knowing that my personal fun turns into frustration for others on a constant base.
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for what respects to me, Fariz, you were steady and the fight was very stable. I saw no warps and I have no complaints at all about your connection, nor i think it affected our fight in the slightest.
Of course I like more fighting low ping guys than high ping ones. But being a 250ms ping user, I'm not exactly one of the low ping ones either .;)
In any case, I don't care about lag if there are no warps. I saw none in our fight, so it was allright for me :)
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Fariz,
You've always appeared solid on my end when we've dueled.
Stick around :)
Cobra
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Fariz the link works but you have to choose 'download target' instead of just clicking the link.
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Ok, Ok... how much ransom do we have to pay to get them to release the REAL Ram and arrest this imposter?
:D
Ram... well stated, well argued and all pretty much without flames.
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Yup, I see the problem... it's that damn Dweeb9 you're in and that Lame7 Fariz is in.
Two dweebs can not occupy the same airspace at any one time, otherwise it offsets the balance of the Dweebiverse and planes randomly fall apart based on their dweebiness.
<-- DON"T care if thread is answered........
LMFAO
:D:D:D
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Folks, I don't have a great ping now. I have a dialup in the US that taps directly into the backbone.
That beats the crap out of when I tapped into an EU T-1 or when I was in the Mediterranean, under two clicks from a UN-patrolled DMZ, and yet with T-1 access (and yet the conx were better). Folks, I don't mind a couple high pings. HTC does the best job to minimize this. The problem is still there, but damn!! I don't care what Fariz does in the MA, he's not cheating, the code that HTC gives us is best out there to minimize ping issues, and frankly, getting worked up over a kill in the MA seems to me silly. In what really matters for me, -- scenarios -- the individual pings matter a hell of a lot less than the initial positioning for the kill.
Heck, even when you look at those kill stats in co-alt engagements, ping matters less than the the way the 32-player limit manifests iitself.
This is a non-issue.
And sadly, fariz is right. At a certain connection level, it's just not fun. The number of times you catch a bandit is far less than the number of times a bandit catches you. It sucks to have a high ping.
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RRAM--
I read this thread, even Wabbit's long post, and there's one thing which bugs me....
You said there was no "hit" sound. Your tail just fell off. Correct me if I'm wrong.
RRAM said: "There were/ is no hit sound, at all, on my plane"
I always get a CRACK sound when I collide with someone--the same sound as when I get shot. So if indeed I read it right, and you never got any sound at all, there's still something wierd going on.
From the relative angles of the planes shown in your screenshot, I find it unlikely that you guys rammed, even with the film sampling taken into account. I DO see that the LA5 is firing as he passes you, and it IS possible that on his FE, his nose might have been far enough around to give him a firing solution. Fariz said he wasn't sure.
Here's what I think: I think you got shot by the LA5, and for some reason there was no sound. Even if I'm wrong about that, you still should have had sound from the collision damage.
I will go no farther than that, without knowing how AH's damage sound system works. I know how it worked in AirWarrior that could explain what's going on here, but there's no reason to assume AH's sound system works the same way. I'll let someone "in the know" post his theory first.
J_A_B
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SHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH Toad...I kidnapped the true RAM some time ago ;) :p :D
Originally posted by J_A_B
RRAM--
You said there was no "hit" sound. Your tail just fell off. Correct me if I'm wrong.
RRAM said: "There were/ is no hit sound, at all, on my plane"
I always get a CRACK sound when I collide with someone--the same sound as when I get shot. So if indeed I read it right, and you never got any sound at all, there's still something wierd going on.
there was no hit sound.......in the film ;). In the game, yes there was a nice ,great, and disturbing CRASH!!! to hear (followed by a loud curse by myself, LOL :D)
One thing I noticed is that in the film you hear weapon pings and damage caused by weapon...but not when you crash against other plane. Download the film and check it if you want. There is no hit nor damage sound :).
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Now that I started thinking, this has happened also to me once..
It was maybe 5 months ago, I was dueling with a 190 at 25k with my d30 jug..
We merged HO after both doing immelmans, neither of us hit anything if we even shot at that time. Nevertheless a couple seconds after the merge my left wingtip just fell off with no hit sound or anything, and we didn't collide in my FE.
I dived the crippled jug to safety but then my fuel burned out and I had to bail..
There was no kill awarded, so he didn't shoot me (I still saw him in the air fighting others) but it wasn't a collision either..
It's happened to me once only though.
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Stick around Fariz and don't take Rip to serious :P, nobody does ;)
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In a collision... if the guy NEVER hit you with guns... noone gets the kill as far as I know... At least if there is noone within prox kill range when ya eat dirt (and noone had softened u up earlier.
SKurj
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Originally posted by AKWabbit
(http://www.e-mystudio.com/ah/example1.gif)
Pamela Anderson?
DmdMax
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Thanks for clearing that up RRAM (can I just leave off the first R?).
J_A_B
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LOL , of course you can!!!!!!!! ;)
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I don't get this ping discution ???
Did you guy ever heard of the average ?
I prefer fighting a stable 700 ms ping than an "good' 100 ms ping varying between 20 and 250 ...