Aces High Bulletin Board
Special Events Forums => Friday Squad Operations => Topic started by: Midnight on June 21, 2002, 11:42:54 PM
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(http://www.brauncomustangs.org/10bears.bmp)
Seeing as how you didn't stick around long enough to chat, here is my response to your comments, 10bears
This was frame three of a TOD where the basic principal was the same for all three frames. B17s fly into Germany and bomb stuff and then go home. Allied fighters try to keep the bombers alive, Axis fighters try to shoot the bombers down. Simple.
I realize my orders came late, but by no means was there lack of planning. The plans sent were simple and straight forward. Nothing elaborate, nothing that any CO who has already been in frames 1 and 2 should not have been able to handle.
One of the first things I asked on Channel 2 when I got into the area was if any Allied CO had questions. No one asked me any questions, including you, 10bears. <-- So I must assume then that you got the orders and understood them.
This Frame was no different than any other, and had it's share of warps, lags and missing icons/planes. <-- This is beyond my control. I ordered a two minute staggger on launch and gave instructions for where the flight groups were supposed to fly in order to try and avoid the 32 plane limit.
All bombers were restricted to 25K maximum altitude. All fighters could go as high as they wanted. Very early in the frame, B17s were attacked by 30K Me-262s and 109-G10s, both of which were armed with 30mm cannons. <-- we all know how fast 30mm cannons can put down bombers in AH damage model. Too fast IMO.
Allied turn out was not as good as previous frames, and it seemed the LW had better numbers than before. <-- Nothing I could have done to change this.
Lastly, even the best laid plans are useless if they are not followed and executed by skilled people. We have many skilled players in AH, but bottom line, not many ever fly coordinated formations. How many tightly grouped bomber boxes did you see this TOD? I saw many B17s flying in close proxcimity to one another, but maybe only saw 2 or 3 coordinated bomber boxes, which are the best defensive formation for B17s.
So, in summary, your comments to me that poor planning caused you to loose all your bombers is inaccurate and poorly placed. And for you to call me a 'fool' just prior to logging off shows yourself as a person of poor character, or someeone who acts as a small child that likes to make wise cracks as they are running away.
I have already stated that I am sorry for the delay in sending out my orders and have already asked that I not CO a TOD frame for a little while. Maybe next time, I can be as good as you and lead us all to victory.
Come to think of it, I don't recall you being CO of any frames yet. I would try to look it up, but the Events site is down right now.
Midnight - CO
412th FS "Braunco Mustangs"
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Man, Midnight. I'm sorry to see someone venting on you like that. It's just a game.
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10Bears:
That was really uncalled for. A different plan would not have averted what transpired.
[list=1]
- the LW had radar.
- The numbers were pretty lopsided:
Totals: Allies 77, LW 92
Of the 77 allied planes
~30-40 were bombers
~30+ were fighters
It was remarkable enough that 40-50 LW planes got shot down to 60 allied planes downed considering the odds and plane types. In fighters we were outnumbered 3-to-1.
[/list]
Tango, XO
412th FS Braunco Mustangs
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With numbers like that, I'm astounded anyone Allied-side survived! In similar scenarios flown in WB, the numbers were picked to ensure a superior number of Allied fighters to LW fighters, then with the Allied bomber units as well...
-and the LW still managed, every now and then, to rip at least one bomber formation apart (whilst 2-3 others, sadly, got through reasonably unmolested).
Esme
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astounded that anyone Allied survived? LOL I'd rather be in a B17 gunner position than a 262 cockpit. Lag works wonders on attacking fighters.
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Same Raub,
Look at death due to b17 guns and not all 90 lw engage at once.
we had 20 g10s 20 g2s attack the initial radar contact. By the time the 6 out of the 8 262s entered the battle there wasnt a 51 to be found.
The last 30 lw didnt commit to the battle till the very end.
Was great fun
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I just created an excel spreadsheet report for skernsk:
- LW launched 99 planes
- Allied launch 79 planes (38 B17s and 41 P51Ds)
- Allies had 2 pure gunners, never launched a plane
- Allied lost 28 B17s to enemy fire - 74%
- Allied lost 32 P51s to enemy fire - 78%
- Combine losses of 60 planes to enemy fire - 76%
- LW loss 37 planes to enemy fire - 37%
- No bombs dropped, no buildings scrafed
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Wotan,
LW actually fielded 23 109-G10s and actually fielded 9 me262s.
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Well I had a blast dodging 109s.
Call it Black Friday.
Sometimes you get the bear, sometimes the bear gets you!
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9 262s? nope some guys were late when they arrived we had 2 guys in 262s on the runway they .efluffied and got g10s.
wulfie
jenga
leitwolf
moot
Heinkel
Cmorris
Kratzer
Raub
Drunky and I were in 262s otr at roll because 2 guys who were to be in them were having connect problems. We waited otr until to see if they could get it fixed. They came back said they were ready so Drunky and I exited the 262s and got g10s.
They were discoed several more times. They had no kills or even engaged the nme at any point. Their connections problems plagued them throughout the entire frame. Apparently these guy were having router problems. Each time they were discoed they requested and recieved permission to reup.
8 262s rolled
AKs had 20 g10s
The remaining 3 3./JG2 had upped g10s after recieving an email from skernsk stating that g10 could be assigned to 1 large squad (aks) AND 1 small (3 guys from 3./jg2)
We only ever had 6 262s (2 were totally incapacitated due to connection woes) engage the enemy and 20 (aks) engage the inititial radar contact as I stated above in the other post. We also had 6 g2s from 880 and 10 g2s from Nighthawks meet these same contacts.
By the the time the 6 262s arrived (they arrived in pairs over a 15 min period not at once) there wasnt a 51 to be found. Sometime later I called in the Damned and Shills totaling another 20-30 g2s. I held the 332nd, SBMS and Groverats just west of Berlin. I called them in with less then an hour to go to finish off the the buffs.
Repeat wulfie was in contact with the CMs before him and his wingman rolled after each disco. They shared a router and it gave them a terrible time.
All plane assignments and orders reflected the rules of the event
Edit
Allied lost 32 P51s to enemy fire
well the initial engagement to start this event was 20 g10s 16 g2s
32 vrs 36 hardly overwhelming axis superiority. Half the axis were in g2s :)
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First of all Midnight did you notice that was in white text not an open channel?.. It's very rare I have to have "words" with another player but if I have to I do it on privite as to not embarrass that person. What you did is the same as posting privite email.
Had you spent a little more time planning, you would've realized that drawing a stright line across Germany crossing 5 major cities would be foolish.
Had you not been AWOL and sent the orders in a timely mannor, we might've found out how many jets they planned to sortie we couldn've pitched a squeak. Also, Had you not been AWOL, more allied pilots wouldn've shown up. Many didn't because maybe they thought the event was cancled.
Now what's your excuse? Real life matters?... I can understand that but what I don't understand is how you can't find time in an entire week to send at least a little note to someone.. anyone describing your situation.
No my friend, this MASSIVE LOSS is your responsability and yours alone.
1) I don't like you making public privite messages when my email address is available
2) I don't like you trying to deflect responsability when you know damn well it's your fault.
Please don't come back here and start some kind of flame war with me.. that would be unfortunate Just take your lumps and go on with life. There are reasons why I can't get involved in a flame war at this time, but I suggest two good books.. Aircraft Combat Manouvers and the Art of War... read em and re-read em. Find out how you can use stealth and surprise to defeat your enmey.
I was just starting to settle down and relax in the main when someone mentioned I should check the bbs... Now you got me all worked up again.
(email addr is in sig)
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I disagree, I think feeding people the same role 3 times in a row bored a few (ie - B17s for all 3 frames). Now I was lucky enough (thanks to my Co.) to be given a pony to fly. Although I did turn up expecting to be stuck in a 17 again. But there was another 10 guys in my squad who weren't so privileged and had their 3rd round.
I thought the idea was to mix the roles throughout the frame?
Originally posted by Midnight
Allied turn out was not as good as previous frames, and it seemed the LW had better numbers than before. <-- Nothing I could have done to change this.
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Regardless of who is right and who is wrong I think bringing a "private" transmission to the boards in this way is not the right way to settle this. :(
TTFN
snafu
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Well, I'll start with Vulcan on the plane issue. The TOD was one where there was very little choice for the Allies. I am not sure why you guys would have to fly B17's for all three frames. You guys could have contacted the Frame CO or posted here and said that you paid your dues in the bombers and request fighters this frame. I'm sure the Frame CO would try and arrange that.
As for the numbers. We usually see a drop in the Axis numbers by frame 3. I am certian that this is the first TOD where the Axis outnumbered the Allied at the end. Becuase the numbers usually drop I had set the sides to have a slight Axis advantage.
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Wotan,
Your right I counted cmorris twice. You had 8 me262s up. 23 G10s did up according to the log. Although I am tired and maybe there is a duplicate name in the Arabian list I keep missing.
As for the 109-G10s 3.J2 upped 3:
Arabian Knights up 19 109-G10s:
AKOwl
mollydog
AKNimitz
AKQwik
WldThing
AKChuklz
AKWabbit
AKH
Gatso79
AKNuttz
AKcurly
AKgrog
Sundial2
AKKarma
AKWarp
AKTazie
bombguy
AKZero
AKwire
And NightHawks upped 1:
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vv Nighthawks were ordered to fly g2s :(
my 3 guys were the "small" squad of g10s.
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Thats enough guys.
This thread needs to die.
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19-23 G-10's??? I thought the allowed limit was 8 G-10's? What's up with that?
Tango, XO
412th FS Braunco Mustangs
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I fly what ever the frame CO assigns the squad to fly. No complaints. I am just happy to be part of the TODs.
If anyone complains about these things going off without a mistake, I suggest they buck up their name to CO a frame.
It is always easy to blame the frame CO when you are not one!
Basically, it is always easier doing some elses job when you're not the one doing it!
Constructive critisim is one thing, personel insult is another!
There is your new thought for the day!! :)
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Tango I made a mistake in my memory on friday night:
There was a limit of 8 me262s and I believe a limit of 8 fw109-D9s. The limit on the 109-G10s was one small squad and one large squad .. Arabian Knights just happens to be a very large squad.
me-262s did not engage until way in the frame (not sure if they go any kills). There were tons of 109-G2s and I think that is what we first ran into. Remember 109-G2s climb like bats and with the optional gun package they have 3 20 mms and tend to be good bomber killers.
From the Nightmares experience it was the lack of numbers on our sides that really hurt. We fielded 22 planes and 2 pure gunners. We had 12 buffs and 10 P51s .. but from sector 8,10 to 11,10 we were under constant attack.
The LW knew there stuff and might have been practicing. It was very enjoyable from my perspective as a gunner. We flew very tight box formations but the LW would form up and shadow us at 1.2 - 1.5k away. You could almost see them making their decision on which buff to attack and then 4 - 6 109s would making slashing firing attacks on one buff .. blasting through our formation and each fire off a burst or two into their selected target and then getting the hell out of there. They really seemed to respect the fire power of the combined B17s.
But they continued to do this until they wounded a B17 and it fell out of formation. I remember seeing TyrNM right engines go and then smoke start streaming behind him and slowly he fell out of formation. As soon as he did they pounced all over. They repeated this process over and over and we were slowly winnowed down. The only thing we could do was tighten thingsup .. I think at one point we modified our formation so that we had 6 B17s as tight as we could manage .. farthest from syzygy's buff was 800 yards and closest was Dodge at 120 yards.
I think the tight flying formation got us as deep into Germany as we did. But since Wotan had built a layer defense we would punch through one layer only to run into new defenders who we had not damaged. At the end we ran into a new group of 109s and a lot of 110s.
Our P51Ds did their best to chase of the LW and break up their attacks but our 10 Nightmare escorts got overwhelmed also.
Remember the LW radar allowed them to pull in their north and south defense force and vector them back to intercept the buff stream on radar.
Was very intense.
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It's a shame about the disparity in numbers in the last frame, but since this is generally an extracurricular activity behind family and work, there is no sure way to prevent it from occurring.
Flying for the LW this TOD, I think we learned from the first two frames (be it the command level, squadron level and personal player level.) I felt pretty good about our overall plan this last frame and even my squadron tried a new thing or two. Actually, I don't see any problem with the Allies' plan either because we had a couple squadrons setup for orbits waiting for inbounds from other directions, but that never happened and so we got vectored to the fight and that's probably why it looked like planned waves of attacks. From my personal perspective, the Allies can do best if they just mass everyone together. Man, I know this is just a game, but my heart rate quickens and my palms get sweaty when I see all them buffs and escorts. However, this last frame spelled problems for the Allies because the Axis learned a little (in my opinion) compounded by the difference in participants.
I thoroughly enjoyed this TOD and wish to provide a positive note to all those who give their time to these activities.
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Originally posted by 10Bears
Had you spent a little more time planning, you would've realized that drawing a stright line across Germany crossing 5 major cities would be foolish.]
I spent time planning, more than most probably do. I flew the entire route two different ways. The straight line to target was the only way the B17s could go if they expected to make it to target and back before frame end. I took 1:45 minutes at maximum power to make the trip, and that was with no waiting for other B17s to form up. Realisticly, the B17s would have to fly at reduced throttle to allow everyone to stay in formation.
Originally posted by 10Bears
Had you not been AWOL and sent the orders in a timely mannor, we might've found out how many jets they planned to sortie we couldn've pitched a squeak.
What would we squeak about? I saw the projected numbers and that's how it goes. I supposed you would have wanted to whine about it?
Originally posted by 10Bears
Also, Had you not been AWOL, more allied pilots wouldn've shown up. Many didn't because maybe they thought the event was cancled.
Cancelled? Come off it, 10bears that is the lamest thing you could have said. If it were cancelled, there would have been plenty of posts about it in here and everyone would have known.
Originally posted by 10Bears
Now what's your excuse? Real life matters?... I can understand that but what I don't understand is how you can't find time in an entire week to send at least a little note to someone.. anyone describing your situation.
No my friend, this MASSIVE LOSS is your responsability and yours alone.
1) I don't like you making public privite messages when my email address is available
2) I don't like you trying to deflect responsability when you know damn well it's your fault.
I'm not your friend and your not mine.
I have no need to make an excuse. Had my orders been issued on Monday, I highly doubt that it would have changed the outcome very much.
Too bad about making this public. Had you stuck around after dropping your comment, I would have been talking to you in private about it, but when I tried to tune you on private channel, you had already left.
Originally posted by 10Bears
Please don't come back here and start some kind of flame war with me.. that would be unfortunate Just take your lumps and go on with life. There are reasons why I can't get involved in a flame war at this time, but I suggest two good books.. Aircraft Combat Manouvers and the Art of War... read em and re-read em. Find out how you can use stealth and surprise to defeat your enmey.
I don't need to read those books to know how to plan missions. I have made several battle plans for TODs now, and have had plenty of success with then.
I know all about stealth and suprise, and would love to have gone the long way in to throw off the LW. However, time contraints prohibited the long flight, and with our forces on radar the entire flight, there was really no chance of any sort of stealth mission anyway.
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To other squads that may have been stuck in B17s each frame, I appologize. I wanted to review the results for the first 2 frames, but the events page was down. I know it would have been good to allow others to be in fighters, however skernsk requested "a lot" of B17s, and I knew at least MAG-33 and Nightmares would be able to put up 12.
Midnight - CO
412th FS "Braunco Mustangs"
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however skernsk requested "a lot" of B17s
This nobody cannot argue with Midnight:) All frame CO's upped a large number of B17's. Although many do not like flying them, the Mighty 8th TOD without B17's is like the Battle of Britain without Spits's.