Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: beet1e on June 22, 2002, 06:39:04 AM
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I couldn't believe it! I landed not one, but TWO hits from the 37mm field gun on a Ju88. The first one got his left engine smoking, the second one hit the mid section of the opposite wing and should have blown it off, but no - the ju88 kept on flying. A few moments later, I fired at a C47 from about 1400 yards. A single hit took off the entire tail section, and it went down - kill credit awarded. I eventually got a kill credit for the ju88.
Can anyone comment on this? For most other planes, a single hit from the field gun is all it takes to cripple the thing.
I've got film of the above incident, but even .ZIPped up it's 140K, so I can't post it here. But if you want to see it, let me know and I'll email it.
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I've hit IL2's 4 times to before they dropped
I'd think 2 hits should not guarantee a kill on a plane the size of a ju88.
Now If you had hit the tail or the cockpit the story would have been different.
The damage modelling in has had some concessions made for playability sakes, especially in the case of buffs. No matter what gun you are firing these concessions stand.
SKurj
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All buffs take an increadible amount of 30mm and 37mm before they go down.
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I haven't had time to fly much this tour, but on occasion I'll log in and jump in a field gun. Most fighters can be taken out with a hit on the wing root. Sometimes it will take two or more, but usually one hit is all it takes.
The larger bombers almost always take two hits or more. The other day I hit a B-17 six times and he was still flying. I always try and hit the wings, they seem to be the most vunerable to field gun fire.
There is nothing like hitting a bomber at 15k or so and listening to him whine about the laser ack. :D
JB66
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On Mindano, I took a B17 to a Northern Base. I was jumped by fighters 2 min to target. I was heavily damaged, and losing alt, by the time I was over target, I was well within ack range. I took over 15 37mm rounds. Greedz my gunner, was going crazy! We egressed off target we had HEAVY damage. Then we were shot down by fighters. I wish I had the film.
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A little off topic, but pertaining to field guns.
Anyone find it a little strange that from the air you see no tracer flare or muzzle flash from a field gun?
Is this a bug or a feature?
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dunno if its either Mino, but its accepted that the manned acks leave no tracers
SKurj
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Oedipus... i am makin an assumption here, which I think most will agree.
how long do u think a ju88 would last otherwise? +)
SKurj
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You think its wierd to see a JU88 take 2 37mm hits? What do ya think about a la7 takeing 3 37mm hits from a Osti? Now I have to admit that they were all to the fusulage just behind the pit but it didn't explode and continued its flight. I did however get credit for a kill so I must have either woulded the pilot of started a fire, not sure. But I was surely pissed that the la7 flew off with 3 37mm into it.
Other than that I have hit B17, B26 with up to 10 37mm from osti or field guns and they keep going. That is even with multiple wing hits.
I always just assumed it was lost dammage packets causing this, not the dammage model. If it is the dammage model, then I think they need to look into it along with that of the GV's.
Booky
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Originally posted by Booky
You think its wierd to see a JU88 take 2 37mm hits? What do ya think about a la7 takeing 3 37mm hits from a Osti? Now I have to admit that they were all to the fusulage just behind the pit but it didn't explode and continued its flight. I did however get credit for a kill so I must have either woulded the pilot of started a fire, not sure. But I was surely pissed that the la7 flew off with 3 37mm into it.
Booky
Had to be a connect prob Booky, when I flew the La7 I never survived a single hit from an Osty. Granted, I didn't attack them much but my guess would be of over 20 encounters I never survived a hit from one.
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I hit an la5 in the belly with a 40 mm (PT pos 6)this morning, he started smokin is about all. He flew for another 5-10mins before a plane finished him. He was the only one of about 10 kills I got that didn't die from 1 hit.
SKurj
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Gameplay.
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Yeah, there are durability concessions on bombers alright. Nice fat "make it easy to shoot them down" type of concessions that allow a Lanc's wing to be completely blown off by twelve 50 cal hits.
Bombers are are too fragile if anything.
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Yeah, some parts of the buffs are too fragile, other parts too tough
SKurj
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What makes you think this isn't realistic?
Look at the frequency - do we have people complaining of bombers taking 37mm hits every day and flying away unharmed?
*Frequency matters*.
Fw 190As have taken 37mm and 40mm AA (which is alot different from an aircraft mounted 37mm in terms of lethality) and returned home safely.
Ju 88s have taken some amazing damage as well, as have B-17s, B-26s, and any other fairly sturdily built aircraft - all have *on ocassaion* survived.
If it happened all the time, I could understand some cause for alarm.
But I've been flying 37mm (Yak) and 3cm (Bf 109, Ta 152) armed aircraft alot this TOD and I've seen bombers and fighters die to 1 hit from these bigger cannon almost every time. When I hit things with the 40mm of the PT boat they die really fast as a rule.
Don't get me wrong - I can understand why you were surprised.
But think it through a little - every round is going to have a damage range that is calculated when it impacts part of a target. There is going to be a very very small chance that a big cannon round is not going to totally destroy what it hits on a target as well as surrounding components. And given the number of 'checks' that are going to be performed for this with a MA that has 400 people flying in it - I'm surprised that it doesn't happen at least once a night.
It probably does happen at least once a night - you just mentioned it on the BBS whereas some others probably didn't.
The best way to put it is this - a Ju 88A-4 *could* survive 2 37mm AA hits and keep flying. It just isn't very likely. 'You rolled bad dice'.
Recreate it in the MA 10 times out of 50 tries and I'd be shocked.
Mike/wulfie
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Yeah they get blown out of the sky by 12 50 cal but 12 30mm keeps em flying.
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two 37mm hits? in different locations in ju88?
Thats not any impossibility :)
One 37mm is unlikely to rip ju88's wing.
I've seen such caliber hits on wings and stabilizers, not that powerful.
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Wot, no-one want to see my film?
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i think wulfie's right. the fact is that sometimes it's just bad luck.
37mm is a lot of gun and most planes do go down with just a couple hits, but consider the locations of the hits and the corrections the pilot could take. you take out an engine and hit a wing (im assuming the outer section) and you're looking at the pilot adding opposite rudder and nursing the airplane to what probably ended up as an unsuccessful ditch. bombers are tough airplanes, and the c47 is a bad comparison because it's converted from civil...i put one down with 6 20mm cannon shells out of an LA7 once because i snagged him in the wing root, they're flimsy. and what's the big deal about it anyway? wasn't your objective to make him break off? you even got credit for the kill!
be happy, from the looks of this forum it doesn't seem like it happens very often. wulfie's right, it "could" have survived, and it did.
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Just rememeber it happens. I put 4 or 5 in a Lancaster last night and it didn't go down and I didn't expect it to either, they were scattered and several were into the belly. I know I damaged it, but the hits were not concentrated enough to do fatal damage.
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how about this?
put a 75mm AP (still should be enough thou?) round from a panzer into a b17s wing root, kept on flying
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A 75L48 AP round would have a good chance of passing clean thru, barring a hit vs. the main spar. In this case you would have a 7.5cm hole clean thru the wing. If this hole didn't go thru anything important...
Mike/wulfie
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What's that?
Those are speed holes, makes the car go faster.
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I've been flying bombers quite a bit over the last couple of campaigns. I've taken much more than 2 37mm hits and survived to land.
Just saying, doesn't seem to be an issue IMO.
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Originally posted by majic
What's that?
Those are speed holes, makes the car go faster.
Hi Homer
:D :D :D
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Wulfie if I'm not mistaken the AP rounds from the Pz IV gun have an HE filing so on impact they would explode and cause no the same damage as an HE round but enough to cause the wing to fail.
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What about all that kenetic energy. I can see the round hitting something like a wingtip and passing through but not hitting the hard and rigid wing root without causing major structural falure.
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glasses there were some types of AP that had an explosive charge. Others were solid shot.
But even those with a charge - it wouldn't matter much to a B-17.
Those types of AP rounds were fused to blow up inside an AFV after penetrating its armor.
Unless it hit a major spar, or an engine, the aluminum of a B-17s wing may not even trigger the fuse properly.
If it did, odds are the charge is going to blow after it's passed completely thru the wing.
I've interviewed German AFV gunners who fought in WW2 - against halftracks they often used HE rounds. AP rounds would overpenetrate - making 2 big holes but not destroying the vehicle outright. A 75L48 HE round vs. an M3 halftrack would almost always wreck the halftrack and cause heavy casualties to any nearby personnel.
The overall point is this - it's what you damage and how you damage it, not what you hit with. 3cm high gas pressure HEI rounds (fired by the MK 108) literally tore B-17s apart. They tore apart the skin that helped hold the entire aircraft together as well as breaking anything they blew up near.
Mike/wulfie
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i don't know if AH models angle of bullet attack on planes, but the range was about 1.1k, and i'm sure it should smash the front then create a hole bigger than 7.5cm cos its going thru at an angle
also, isn't there a fuel tank near the bomb bay on a b17 somewhere?
also, the happy bit:
i finnished him off with my top mg34 :)
the hits were spread, but the noise annoyed him so much he stalled and spun out :)
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Well my point was considering that there is supposed to be fuel in the wingroot of the B17 , because if I'm correct that's where the fuel tanks are, it should at least caused it to leak fuel but it didn't and mind you B17s are very tough skinned I had the pleasure of seeing one up close and the wing root IMO would be thick enough to cause a bullet to detonate although it all depends on how the bullet was designed like wulfie mentioned.
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hmm if you are used to having planes blow up from a 37mm shell - than the gameplay is porked as well - there are times when the shell can pass through an airframe and explode later, despite the hit sprite you may see - call it random or whatever - but expecting it all the time is downright dumb - ww2 aircraft took a beating in some cases and got thier pilot home safe.
Maybe a better damage model like Il-2 is in order
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Well Black Sheep , I don't think it'd be viable to put such a complex DM as Il2, but close enough would be good . Also, putting different hit sprites and effects for the types of bullets that hit each particular aircraft,would help .
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even solid 75mm projectile would make more than just 'clean cut' through the wing :)
Have you ever seen pictures of 88mm passing through wing without exploding?
It makes quite nasty hole still.
Panzer should be using 75mm APHE rounds, although, im afraid that the round would cut through the wing and explode on the other side and do only little damage.
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i think you need to understand 2 things
1 the same thing happens on odd occations to pretty much every bomber but the TBM (which ive never seen take more than 2 hits)
2 the ju88 was a very sturdy and durable aircraft.Well known for its structural strengh.Whos to say it couldnt take 2 hits?
The b17 or lancaster can take more than their fair share of 30mm too.If you ask me they should take even more damage!.
Think about why we all like or dislike attacking or using the bombers:
Bombers veiw:
you want to make a difference in the game (somehow) and get a good fight for your time(which is much longer per sortie)
you dont want to go down in thefirst attck made against you
fighters veiw:
Its in your interest to shoot them down but their guns are FAR too strong to allow even the slightest casual attack.
you dont find them easy to shoot down unless you use heavy cannons.
Well this all points to a simple solution for me.
reduce the lethality of the bombers guns to allow fighters to take a lot more hits without losing wings etc in their first pass.
Increase the durability of the bomber so it literally flies even when shot up (like we see in the pictures of heavily damaged bombers returning home)
Model damage to individual guns better so its possibble to actually take out the gunners
result?
Longer fights. plain and simple, ok so it will be harder to down a bomber but it will be EASIER to survive attacks.
As a bomber you can still down enemy planes but there will be far less complaint from players having to engage bombers and complaining of unfair damage levels for a few hits and may well end up saluting bomber pilots for longer and more interesting fights.As it is youre more likely to see pissed off players losing wings from 1.4k out!
Ive recently read 'combat crew' about a B17 top gunner and what they all went through and i can quite safely say thet 95% of what was said in that book has no bearing on what i see in AH.
I think 1.10 could be fantastic and may very well help with all of this type of stuff.When bombing becomes a SKILL rather than a simple matter of hit the box with the cross and gunning isnt so easy (BUT preferably the bomber doesnt quite go down so easily)
we may finally have a fun set up.
Make em tougher i say