Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Obear1971 on June 24, 2002, 02:36:19 PM
-
(http://rwebs.net/avhistory/images/FW61.jpg)
Germany's Focke-Wulf 61 was one of the first successful helicopters. It used two rotors which rotated in opposite directions to offset rotor torque.
(http://rwebs.net/avhistory/images/XR-1A.jpg)
With a modified nose section, the XR-1A made its first flights in late 1943. One other airframe was produced for testing of improvements of the controls but did not fly. The XR-1 is in storage at the NASM, while the XR-1A was sold to Frank Piasecki and accidentally scrapped.
(http://rwebs.net/ghostsqd/images/P-82.jpg)
North American Aviation proposed the P-82 design as the joining of two P-51 fuselages with a new wing center section. The Air Force ordered 500 as P-82Bs, but only 20 were completed before the decision was made to also make a night fighter version. The resulting models mounted a large radar pod underneath the center wing section, with the starboard cockpit modified for the radar operator
-
My, that last one looks like it would be awkward to fly...
-
yeh guy in the left cockpit turn right guy in right cockpit turns left and voila!!!! you now have 2 planes :)
-
bah. The US had one of those in 1922:
(http://www.wpafb.af.mil/museum/history/postwwi/ffh.jpg)
We need something more modern and actually used in numbers during WWII
(http://www.wpafb.af.mil/museum/air_power/ap23.jpg)
More info here:
http://www-acala1.ria.army.mil/lc/cs/csa/aahist.htm#WWII
Westy
-
The P-82 had one bad attribute....
When rolling the aircraft, both pilot and navigator/radar op (whatever he was called) would experience bad G forces since the axis of rotation is around the centerline......
Other than that, it was one fast mofo........
-
Oh, and just so we know...as for the numbers of P-82 produced...
The following is off BOEING's site......
Once the standard long-range, high-altitude escort fighter for the U.S. Air Force, the North American P-82 Twin Mustang was the climactic development of a long series of the famous World War II P-51 Mustang series.
North American produced 250 of the double-fuselaged airplanes for the Air Force, embracing three versions of the Twin Mustang then in service, the P-82E, P-82F, and P-82G. They were ordered too late for World War II, however.
The versatility of the P-82 made it potentially adaptable to a wide variety of roles in modern aerial warfare. It could have been used as a fighter, a long-range escort, long-range reconnaissance, night fighter, attack bomber, rocket fighter or an interceptor.
With a speed of more than 475 miles an hour, the Twin Mustang had a combat range of over 1,600 miles with full armament. Range could be extended by use of external drop tanks on the wings.
A radical departure from the conventional single-fuselage airplane, the Twin Mustang was formed by two fuselages joined by the wing and the horizontal stabilizer. With a pilot in each fuselage, it reduced to a minimum the problem of pilot fatigue on ultra-long-range missions. The P-82F and G models carried a radar operator in the right cockpit instead of a co-pilot.
Both engine throttles and both propellers were controllable from either cockpit by manually operated levers. The pilot's cockpit on the left contained the normal flight and engine instruments, while the co-pilot on the right had sufficient instruments for relief and emergency operation.
A simplified cockpit arrangement improved pilot comfort, including a tilting, adjustable seat to reduce fatigue during long flights.
And the P-82 specs are:
SPEED: 475 miles per hour
SERVICE CEILING: 42,200 feet
RANGE: 1,600 miles
POWER PLANT: Two Allison 12-cylinder V-1710-G6 engines
ARMAMENT: Six .50 caliber machine guns standard
Eight additional .50 caliber machine guns in special center section nacelle. Five rocket launching racks carrying five rockets each.
Other alternate payload: 7,200 pounds of bombs, photographic nacelle, or 2,000-pound torpedo.
NUMBER BUILT: 272
-
The problem with that P-82 was the pilot was on the left side and the co-pilot on the right. When the pilot did a roll he did it along his axis of rotation. The poor co-pilot got ripped around the outside of the loop like a rollercoaster ride.
This concept did not last to long....... :p
-
Originally posted by Otto
The problem with that P-82 was the pilot was on the left side and the co-pilot on the right. When the pilot did a roll he did it along his axis of rotation. The poor co-pilot got ripped around the outside of the loop like a rollercoaster ride.
This concept did not last to long....... :p
Huh? Neither pilot was on the axis of rotation. Moreover, the F-82 was much loved by those who flew it.
My regards,
Widewing
-
Originally posted by AKWarp
...A simplified cockpit arrangement improved pilot comfort, including a tilting, adjustable seat to reduce fatigue during long flights...
LOL, where's the bigscreen?
-
the p82 doesnt really "fit in" with the rest of the planes in AH...it was built to get rid of pilot fatigue. how many of you get tired after each sortie?
-
" Neither pilot was on the axis of rotation"
Really? Think about it for a second.
-
It doesn't even take a second Otto. The axis of rotation has nothing to do with where the pilot sits and everything to do with the aerodynamics and center of gravity of the combined plane.
In this case, the longitudinal axis of rotation would be about the middle of the middle wing between the pilots, so that as referenced above, both pilots would feel a G force pushing them towards their respective wingtips, assuming you could generate enough of a roll rate. However, with so much mass away from the center of roll, I doubt that the rate would be high enough to really cause a problem.
-
Originally posted by Otto
" Neither pilot was on the axis of rotation"
Really? Think about it for a second.
the AC rolled on its axis, which is the center between the two fuselages.
-
I defer to the 'experts' :)
-
This is a baby:
-
But the G forces I spoke of were not necessarily the outward push that would be caused by a high roll rate.....since the cockpits were situated off the center of the longitudinal axis, then when rolling, especially if it was roll one way, then the other (as might be encountered in a dogfight) the G forces were also a positive and negative respective to the pilot.
If the pilot rolled hard right, then the radar op was subject to a sudden negative G and the pilot a sudden positive G. Flop around back and forth like this for awhile and see how tired you get :D
If anyone ever gets the chance to do any heavy aerobatics in a high performance plane, try it....you will be amazed at how brutal it really is and how many bruises you get from banging your head and legs around in the cockpit.
-
Yes! HTC should make the Twin Mustang a perk plane!
(Just for a little -2 players in one plane- fun)
-
P-61. the Twin Mustang should be called "Siamese Stain" . Mwahahah
-
The problem with that P-82 was the pilot was on the left side and the co-pilot on the right. When the pilot did a roll he did it along his axis of rotation. The poor co-pilot got ripped around the outside of the loop like a rollercoaster ride.
This is a wide-spread myth. It has been debunked only fairly recently (1990s) afaik. There is no way the pilot of the F-82 could roll the plane in a manner that would allow his fuselage to be the axis of the roll.
-
"This is a wide-spread myth. It has been debunked only fairly recently"
So what are you going to tell me next? Elvis is really dead?
-
"So what are you going to tell me next? Elvis is really dead?"
No. But they did have almost two dozen P-82A's ready before VJ day :D
Westy
-
Originally posted by Otto
" Neither pilot was on the axis of rotation"
Really? Think about it for a second.
I have thought about it. The physics is simple enough; the aircraft will rotate around a point exactly mid span. However, unlike most aircraft, the pilots are subjected to centripetal forces during roll maneuvers. If we assume that the pilots sit 8 feet outboard of the roll axis, we have established what amounts to a centrifuge arm. Therefore the pilot feels force pushing him outward. He will also experience forces applied up or down relative to his spine. During roll maneuvers, one pilot will experience positive G, the other negative. Nonetheless, the roll rate being rather slow (probably not more than 85 degrees/second), the forces involved are not significant.
My regards,
Widewing
-
Ok, I've got a couple of strikes but I'm still swinging....
You’re flying a P-61 Black Widow. It uses spoilers for Roll Control. You want to make a left turn. You move the wheel in that direction and the left spoiler pops up reducing lift and increasing drag. Is your plane rolling on:
1) It’s Longitudinal axis (through the CG)
2) The new Center of Lift somewhere out on the right wing.
3) The right Wingtip.
Anybody?
(Widewing, that sounds like a very reasoned analysis. Thanks)
-
Not knowing the specifics on the P-61, one question I would have is:
Does it use spoilers exclusively for roll control, or spoilers for low performance roll with the add-in of ailerons for authority and high roll rates (ala the Mitsubishi MU-2 and various large airliners)?
If it is spoiler only, then the axis of roll will be slightly off center line and inline with the center of lift at the initiation of a roll, and then it should stabilize to the CG if the roll continues (assuming no attempt to maintain altitude with elevator inputs).
-
Damned if I know Warp. But this has been a 'Hanger Flying' staple for as long as I can remember. I was hoping some one could tell me. There were some home built sailplanes in the 70's that used the spoilers just for roll control but I never flew one.
It could a normal roll through the CG if the increased lift on the outside wing due to it's faster speed raises it just as the inside wing is lowering but that's a guess.
If it was out on the wingtip people use to wonder if you could 'rock' yourself into the ground trying to land in gusty winds.
First one wing drops, you correct, and then the other.
Anyway, I had too much wine when I posted that. I try to me more careful in the future :p