Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: F4UDOA on June 24, 2002, 05:01:42 PM
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Heya's
Thought I would post this one to show how futile trying to use virtical maneuvers against a NIK2 can be with it's low speed virtical tail dance.
The shot that wrecked me was the one that took my flap off and slowed me to a crawl. Watching the film on the external film viewer you can see how quickly the NIK2 can recover speed and how well it handles at extreme low speed at high AoA.
BTW, I am not the best or most patient in these maneuevers so if I screwed up I can deal with it. You be the judge.
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No film posted.
Hooligan
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Err,
It was to big. Can't figure out how to make it fit??
It's a 600K dogfight no matter how I slice it.
I'll try breaking it into small pieces.
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Is there a bug in the film editor?? When I edit the film the NME dissapears??
Is this a known bug?
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Its the n1k Stealth Feature. It hides from incriminating films ;) ;) :D :D
Use this program to split apart and also to join big files:
http://www.freebyte.com/hjsplit/#hjsplit
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does this qualify as a whine or you have to post as MANDOBLE so all jump at you ?
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Dont worry F4UDOA, at least no film needed to prove that for me. N1K2 and Spits became choppers after 1.04 patch.
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Here's the post where I tried to understand where Mandoble was coming from. Being that I don't fly the N1K2, or have any trouble against them, I had no hidden interest in keeping a "flawed" model. But in the end, I think it was well demonstrated that this was much ado about nothing, and that although the N1K2 is the easiest plane to tailstand (witht he possible exception of the P-38), it's not some freaky UFO or Miracle Chopper. I thought I was pretty diplomatic in the begining of this post, but my efforts were met with hostility and sad, sad immaturaty. It's no wonder Mandoble is ridiculed the minute he posts something.
http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=48553 (http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=48553)
-Sikboy
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Sikboy, I'm almost sure you really are Montezuma, or just a copy :D
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And I'm pretty sure that you're Ram.
-Sikboy
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Oh wait, my mistake. You're Naudet.
-Sikboy
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Oh, sorry, I was wrong again. You're Wilbus.
Hmmm, the list goes on.
:rolleyes:
-Sikboy
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Everybody knows that the n1k2 has a better rate of climb than the f4u4 right ? So why would we be surprised that employing vertical maneuvres against the n1k2 when flying the f4u4 does not work well ?
If you found yourself in a situation where you had blown your E so badly that you couldn't get away from the guns of a n1k2 in an f4u4 well all I can say is shame on you .
You know you can't out climb it, you know you can't out accelerate it, you know you sure as hell can't out stallfight it, so what the heck we're you doing ?
Without seeing the film all we can do is speculate .
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Samm, I don't think he was low E, I think he tried a Rope, and the Niki hung longer than he anticipated.
-Sikboy
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BTW should the f4u4 have the sexier, lower, wider canopy . The f4u4 in wbIII does have the late style canopy but I'm not sure if it's a post war f4u4 or not .
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Originally posted by Sikboy
Samm, I don't think he was low E, I think he tried a Rope, and the Niki hung longer than he anticipated.
-Sikboy
Yeah but isn't the rope a gamble in which you blow your E at the top ? Oh well, sounds like he may have misjudged the n1k2's E state, that happens to me a lot with 109s .
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Originally posted by Samm
Yeah but isn't the rope a gamble in which you blow your E at the top ? Oh well, sounds like he may have misjudged the n1k2's E state, that happens to me a lot with 109s .
I hadn't really thought of it in those terms, but that is one way of looking at it.
Essentially, when I get a tail full of lead when trying a rope, I tend to say "damn, I really assed up that time" And go about my business. But I've never lost an F-4U4 or any other perk plane doing it. I bet I'd be pretty torqued (haha!) if that happened. In the end though, F4UDOA has presented questions about flight models before, and has always been patient with the process, even when HTC has deceided (as far as I can tell) to go in a different direction. In my mind he's earned the benefit of the doubt when it comes to whining. I extend him that courtesy. Besides, have you seen how big his arms are? I'm not going to taunt that dude! ;)
-Sikboy
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Yeah that's true, I guess I just start salivating when I see a n1k2 FM thread topic, hope I didn't come off sounding hostile .
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The Niki vertical behavor has been fixed for a while now. There is no longer any cause for FM concern, frankly F4UDOA simply diddlyed
up in some way and he lost his plane. :)
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Nah, he probably can't come up with original whine so he copy&pasted the usual one :)
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Actually Grunherz is correct. I could have won the fight and I probably should have. I blew a huge E advantage and had already nailed him with what could have been a leathal shot. But all that aside the NIK2 was able to maneuever and shoot at a speed of approx. 60MPH while at a high AoA. This is my only question in this thread.
BTW Samm,
The F4U-4 has a better sustained climb rate than the NIK2 at most alts. However if you climb at higher speeds(over 200MPH) the -4 really out climbs the NIK2 because the Niki does not have the power to sustain a high speed climb with a -4. At 300MPH the Niki can barely climb at all and the -4 can maintain close to a 2K rate of climb the whole way up to 20K.
Laters
I will post this film if it's the last thing I do!!
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where is the frreaking pic?
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Is this a discussion of the actual capabilities of the N1K2?
I find it can turn and keep speed like a muther, just like the ME262 is fast, and the Spit can turn on a dime.
Just asking if it's FM is right or wrong and who knows what's up. Kinda in the veign where the FW crowd has big interest and charts on the varients, and seem to present their case quite well.
The N1K2 is hardly a historically covered aircraft. Kinda miffed on what it could, or shouldn't do myself.
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Try to download the film from here.
NIK2vrsF4U4(BIG FILE!!) (http://mywebpages.comcast.net/markw4/NIK2vsF4U4.ahf)
BTW I am completely embarrassed by the type of thread I started. I just want an unbiased opinion if the virtical maneuvers look right to everyone else. It will be easier to tell in the next version of the film viewer where you can switch to the opposing pilots seat.
BTW, this file is very big. The first 18minutes is me flying around lost and then chasing a ME262 which I couldn't catch. The I find the NIK2.
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F4UDOA:
Just a side note...
From your description I'm assuming you mean attitude vs. AOA. Just wanted to point out that AOA and attitude are two different things. AOA is relative to the direction of wind/motion to the wing while attitude is relative to the orientation of the nose. You can have a 90 degree nose high attitude but be low AOA.
Tango, XO
412th FS Braunco Mustangs
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Again, just wondering your point-
Watching the film on the external film viewer you can see how quickly the NIK2 can recover speed and how well it handles at extreme low speed at high AoA.
Your either showcasing how HTC models a little known late war Jap fighter's abilities, or second guessing it's FM.
Seriously, just say what.
I'm in the "no idea" crowd, looking for solid feedback.
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Dtango,
Your technical description has me a little confused. What I mean is the ability to point your nose up at low speed and still maneuver.
Creamo,
I guess I'm just looking for one of two responses.
A. That NIK2 is a freaking UFO and shouldn't be able to do that.
or
B. I don't see anything strange, quit yur whining.
I really don't fly the NIK2 much so I can't say for sure what it's capabilties are. In fact I usually don't worry about them at all since I stick to pretty ROE usually and try not to get caught up with them where I can't escape. However with a superior climbing A/C (the F4U-4) I thought I would try a virtical rope. I was just surprised to get my flap taken off while I had maneuver speed and I thought my opponent did not.
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In threads like this I always rememver with a smile the reports of USN pilots whining about the N1Ks doing impossible maneuvers.
HTC has replicated at least ONE aspect of WW2 to near-perfection :)
J_A_B
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FUDA-
A. No
B. It seems to be relevant enough to question historic data. Thing is, there is nothing but whines. See item “A.”
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I watched the film and I didn't see any UFO N1K stuff, just a big slow hog getting caught trying to turn with an N1K, then trying to run when it was too late. You had one really good gunpass on the N1K at the beginning, and I think you should have put him away there. In fact I was surprised not to see any damage on him after that, but oh well. :) After that, you made a few mistakes and it cost you. You started out with a huge E advantage, but you slowed down more than necessary by turning quickly back toward the N1K after every pass. Watch your speed and the N1K's speed--you'll see your speed advantage diminishes after every pass. It's not futile to use vertical maneuvers against N1Ks, but if your speed is about even and he's on your six, don't even think about going vertical.
edit: ONe more thing, looks like in AH the N1K has the climb speed advantage over the F4U-4 below 8k, which is where this fight occurred.
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F4UDOA:
Sorry, I need to do a better job :).
AoA is the angle of the wing relative to direction of wind where it "strikes" the wing due to the "forward" motion of the aircraft. It isn't the angle relative to the horizon.
Attitude on the other hand is the orientation of the nose relative to the horizon.
I started to type more but erased it since I think I was making it more confusing :). I understand what you were trying to say. Just trying to help us with awareness of the use of the terms :).
Tango, XO
412th FS Braunco Mustangs
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Even with a full tank of gas (and it carries much fuel) the n1k2 will get to 10k faster than the f4u4 .
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Maby it realy did that in real life??? The prop hang thingy. I mean were any of us alive when the thing flew. DID YOU fly it??? How do you know that the FM is flawed. If it realy flew like this how would we know. Stopyabellyaching and fly.:mad:
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J_A_B is correct, USN pilots did report the N1K doing impossible manuevers after encountering them. The thing was very good in some respects and it was a plane that was easy to die against if you screwed up.
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"On 10 February 1945, Warrant Officer Kinsuke Mutoh of the 343rd Kokutai single-handedly engaged twelve Grumman F6F Hellcats, shooting down four and severely damaging two.
On 19 March 1945, the 343rd launched some fifty fighters to intercept a large US Navy flight bound for Kure. In the ensuing air battle, the pilots of the 343rd managed to destroy fifty-two of their enemies while losing only sixteen of their own.
A few days later, twenty-one Shiden-Kai's led by Squadron Leader Yoshinobu Hayashi bounced twenty-three F4U Corsairs and in a very one-sided match destroyed eighteen of them."
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Karnak and J_A_B,
I have never seen this report. Do you know where I can find it??
"On 10 February 1945, Warrant Officer Kinsuke Mutoh of the 343rd Kokutai single-handedly engaged twelve Grumman F6F Hellcats, shooting down four and severely damaging two.
On 19 March 1945, the 343rd launched some fifty fighters to intercept a large US Navy flight bound for Kure. In the ensuing air battle, the pilots of the 343rd managed to destroy fifty-two of their enemies while losing only sixteen of their own.
A few days later, twenty-one Shiden-Kai's led by Squadron Leader Yoshinobu Hayashi bounced twenty-three F4U Corsairs and in a very one-sided match destroyed eighteen of them."
Actually Samm that is some very good fiction but it doesn't check out against the facts. First there were only 189 F4U's lost in WW2 in Air to Air combat. I don't believe 18 were ever lost in any one engagement.
Second I can not find any records of any activity by the 343rd on that day except multiple ace Naoshi Kanno was shot down by an F4U-1D flown by Ensign Roy Hill of the VMF 123. In fact the F4U's of the VMF-123 claimed 11 Georges that day against a loss of 3 of there own. 2 pilots and one ditched and recovered next to the carrier. In fact one the returning F4U's had 41 20millimeter holes counted in it(try that in AH). And if you read the report from the VMF-123 they reported being able to turn inside the Georges quite easily. This can be found in the Book "Corsairs and FlatTops". And these were not F4U-4's. So much for annecdotes.
Also I will test the climb to 10K in AH offline.
BTW, the Author of the report I quoted is Henry Sakaida. He published "Imperial Japanese Navy Aces "1937-45".
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Tested the F4U-4 in AH vrs NIK2 to climb 10,000FT.
F4U-4= 3.27
NIK2= 3.19
Not exactly a crushing defeat.
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I'm surprised it took the N1k2 that long to get to 10k since it climbes +4000fpm untill 8k, and that is with a full tank of fuel . How many n1k2s are you going to find flying around that took off with 100% fuel ? You did use wep in your test right ?
I watched your film, even if the f4u4 did climb better than the n1k2 the outcome would've been the same, you were in it knee deep .
And as for the quote I captured it from a webpage, any US vs Japan wwII stats would be difficult to prove since the Japanese didn't keep them and the US stats remain largely falsified to date . Anectodal pilot accounts are about the best means of record we have . Didn't an F4u pilot claim that Boyington shot him down ?
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The report is false.
Some time ago it was presented to Pyro- he replied with the account (with source references) and the additional information that the story was absolute fiction made up for morale purposes (an autobiography source reference, quoted).
If you want to find it use the search function for pyro's name and the plane name.
F4u- I think what we are seeing (and this has also been said before) is the fact that the Nik's auto flap device is worked into the FM instead of just popping out the flaps like the real plane did.
This means the plane can keep exceptional lift and control at high attitude and low speed. Consider it like the F4u's flaps operating automatically instead of you having to control them. Would make the plane seem like a bit of a UFO wouldn't it?
OTOH this would usually mean the flaps would start adding drag ETC ETC. I don't know if Pyro is done with the flap model for the planes. I expect one day this will be switched to just opening the flaps at a certain level of lift instead of an FM tweak.
BTW the comment on out-turning the George- was about an instantaneous (sp? what a big word!) turn not any sort of prolonged or low speed manuever. Like the A6M the Nik didn't have good authority at higher speeds for turning- better balanced controls than the Zero but nowhere near the level of balancing in US planes.
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I think what we are seeing (and this has also been said before) is the fact that the Nik's auto flap device is worked into the FM instead of just popping out the flaps like the real plane did.
Does this mean the N1K flight model double-dips in the flap/lift department but not in the drag? It sounds as if you say the N1K has the flight model so that it automatically calculates in flaps at a certain speed but I'm guessing the player can still manually use flaps...thus, double-dipping the lift. I may be way off base, I've flown the N1K 2-times at most, but I'm curious.