Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Ripsnort on June 25, 2002, 08:18:25 AM
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(Apologies if someone has already posted this idea)
First off, I personally dislike the RPS in Warbirds..however, an alteration of this would be...
why not have both a rolling plane set AND perked planes?
It'd work like this:
All planes are available the first "Early Plane" week, but all those not an early war plane is perked(only 39-41 are not perked) The "perked planes" this first week would still be available, but at a low cost.
Then the 2nd week of the rolling plane set, the 39-43 planes are "unperked" but late is still perked...
Then the 3rd week 39-44 planes are "unperked", then the last week ALL planes (except maybe 262) are unperked(39-45). This gives us a RPS AND Perk plane capability.
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That would be good for those that can keep playing regulary along the entire month, what keep in mind that, due work or whatever, some other may have their play time limited to 2 or 3 weeks per month.
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yeah... let's make sure the arena is lopsided 24/7 but with less choice. You can drive off the "dedicated" pee 51 guys along with all the new guys who don't like dodging superior ac (real or percieved.. works out the same) that they can't have.
congrats on selecting the worst of both worlds and combining em ripsnore.
lazs
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Originally posted by MANDOBLE
That would be good for those that can keep playing regulary along the entire month, what keep in mind that, due work or whatever, some other may have their play time limited to 2 or 3 weeks per month.
It can be overcome by giving a perk credit each start of TOD and reseting it a each end of TOD.
@laz : hu ???
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straffo... any system that puts the best players / those who live online in the best planes is gonna suck for the casual player who just wants to fly an hour or so now and then. Any "RPS" is gonna piss off the players who only like to fly certain planes.
giving a certain amount of perks each tour and resetting em at the end will still assure that the best pilots have the best planes all tour and can beat up on the other players. newbies will lose their "perk rides" rapidly and have no time in them to improve. Giving everyone perk points at the begginning will assure that the arena is more full than it is now of perk rides.
any system that allows more perk planes in the arena= bad. any system that allows less perk planes in the arena = good.
lazs
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Well, I liked the WB RPS, but it would be even LESS popular if some players had late war planes while others had only early war stuff.
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Originally posted by lazs2
Any "RPS" is gonna piss off the players who only like to fly certain planes.
Umm, I believe we had this in Warbirds for 6+ years and ya know what? Those "pissed off players" kept relogging back in. :) Difference is here, you can STILL fly your favorite plane, at a low cost AND have your "Early war planeset" even more so than it is now.
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Ok I got it Laz.
That's way I asked for a minimal amout of perk point so the casual player can afford any ride in the month (it's up to him to fly with care or not)
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Originally posted by popeye
Well, I liked the WB RPS, but it would be even LESS popular if some players had late war planes while others had only early war stuff.
This is in line with the community calls for "Perk them all!" posts. ;)
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Umm, I believe we had this in Warbirds for 6+ years and ya know what? Those "pissed off players" kept relogging back in.
Ummmm actually no. Many players saw a huge decrease in flight time per month, and then when AH started there was a mass exodus, like rats from a sinking ship. Myself and a lot of others specifically left WB's due to our distaste for the RPS and then the Axis vs Allied arena.
And if you've been keeping up on AGW, it looks like iEN is starting to realize that the RPS and AvA type arena's are mostly just appealing to the "hard core" crowd, but keeping overall attendance down. So they're starting to back away from those approachs.
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Verm, you know as well as I do that no one leaves a sim for one specific reason. That may have been the "Cue" to leave for ya, but only because AH was available, or a few combinations of other things that causes those to leave.
RPS was always a controversial thing in WB's. Just as "perk system" is here. Maybe by combining the "worst of both worlds" you might end up with "the best of both worlds"...(Shrugs)
Right now, the MA resembles a "Relaxed Realism" that AW had.
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Screw the "rolling plane set."
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"Umm, I believe we had this in Warbirds for 6+ years and ya know what? Those "pissed off players" kept relogging back in"
The ones who didn't quit the game outright, that is. If you did this to AH, you can be dang sure I'd instantly cancel my account. FYI I never even CONSIDERED subscribing to WB's because of the RPS.....and I bet I'm not the only one :)
"Right now, the MA resembles a "Relaxed Realism" that AW had."
I think your memory might be a bit fuzzy, because the arena setups in AW RR and FR were exactly the same besides the differing difficulty levels. Of course, AW had one thing AH lacks--multiple arenas. AW could actually have (and DID have) things like populated euro/pacific/AvA arenas all of their own WITHOUT making the game un-fun for the rest of the players. It also didn't have the connection problems that 500+ in one arena brings. In many ways having a single more populous arena is a step backwards.
I'm not against your arena idea Rip, I'm just not FOR it as long as it would destroy my fun. Surely you can't blame me for lobbying against something that would completely destroy the game for me! If AH had a separate arena system like AW did, then I'd be supportive of your arena idea although I'd never fly in there personally.
J_A_B
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Re:AW arenas..dang, it was nice to have a choice, and always have population in those arena's, I'm afraid that in AH today, most would be empty, and most in the MA. I guess that would be a valid point for why the MA is "working" the way it is...(shrugs)
What I meant about RR in the MA is, no historical footpath, ie, Spits shooting spits down, and 1939 planes in with 1945 planes. Nothing to do with FM mind you.
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"What I meant about RR in the MA is, no historical footpath, ie, Spits shooting spits down, and 1939 planes in with 1945 planes. Nothing to do with FM mind you."
That's what I'm trying to tell you--that's exactly how it always was in FR too. There were of course "axis vs allied" 2-sided arenas available to both FR and RR although they were less popular. AW's system didn't NEED the "best of both worlds"--it just had both worlds in full :)
"it was nice to have a choice, and always have population in those arena's, I'm afraid that in AH today, most would be empty, and most in the MA."
AW's arenas were limited at considerably less than 550 people. The fact that the AH MA is capable of supporting the entire nightly player base of AH is what kills alternate arenas. Arenas in AW were added/removed as demand shifted. For example, when the first "axis versus allied" arena opened, there were THREE of the regular "european" arenas (the equal of the AH MA) as well as a "pacific" arena (also similar to the AH MA), and a "fighter-only" arena.
Basically everyone could fly in the environment they wanted to. Plus, if an arena had to down for maintanence, it didn't affect the entire player base like closing the MA in AH does.
J_A_B
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hmm, well, I was in DOS AW in 1989, I'm sure what you are referring to was much later..I didn't fly in AW after 1990, too expensive.
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I'd like an RPS. It'd give me a chance to fly an F4F or P40 without getting continuously raped by 51s, D9s, LA7s and many others. I've heard some make points about people cancelling their account in disgust because they might not be able to fly their every single day. But how many will shy away because they can't fly their favorite plane (which just so happens to be an early-war aircraft) with enjoyment (not getting shot down the minute you see an enemy) for even just a few days? And don't tell me there is nothing preventing anyone from actually taking a Wildcat or Warhawk into the MA. How long is the typical player going to keep his account if he can't ever survive a fight in his *favorite*, i.e., early-war bird of choice?
WW2 didn't only take place in 1945.
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The difference is that people who like the RPS are highly skilled, versatile, easy going, good looking players who don't stamp their feet and quit when things don't go exactly the way they want.
The anti-RPS group, however....
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I want bad to fly these early war machines in combat, against close matches, more or less like they historicaly did. The combat arena doesn´t suit me right now. There are no scenarios running in times available to me. If not enough, just look at the upcoming 1.11 planeset. Such splendid machines. Would you use them regularly in the MA? not really.
I think the idea, as posted by Ripsnort is just perfect. Maybe could only be better if the perkride prices are set by the 'market' instead of fixed tables.
flecha
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no system would allow you to fly a spit I/f4f and be competative while not driving the crowds away.
the CT offers a partial solution, but for those who like to be "early war dedicated" it doesn't help. also, a lot of player don't like the setting and the diveded planesets.
with the growing player numbers (and complaints about huge furballs) and filling up the early-war plane set, the only solution would be a split for "early war" MA and a "late war" MA (the current one).
I know that in such a case i'll be playing both.
just like a fokker eindecker would not live in the same areana with an F-16 no matter the perks invulved.
Bozon
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Thats called a ROLLING PERK SET.
Proposed by many people, including myself and you now, for a looooong time.
Can you IMAGINE the ungodly whining when all those n1k/p51/spitIX/la7 dweebs *grin* suddenly find themselves stripped of their security blanket? HORRIDO!
Can't imagine it? Then think of RAM, myself, Mandoble, Urchin and Lazer going off in Ch1 at the same time, multiplied by a factor of 50. ;) ;) :D :D
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Only way I see something like this being workable would be to:
1. Scale perk costs based on time frame. ie, 190d9 would cost 300 perks first round, 150 second round, 75, third, 30 fourth, free last.
2. Give each player 500 or so PP's at start of each tour with no way to increase this number. Once you spend 'em yo are done with the planes above current set.
F.
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Can you IMAGINE the ungodly whining when all those n1k/p51/spitIX/la7 dweebs *grin* suddenly find themselves stripped of their security blanket? HORRIDO!
Again, thats where this proposal is fatally flawed.
Anyone who flew the RPS in WB's knows that there is always a "security" blanket aircraft, you just change the name of the icons. It just changes everyone so often depending on how fast the RPS rolls over.
For instance when the Fw190 is first introduced, it becomes fills the exact same spot as the La7 does now.
There's always gonna be a couple "best" planes, and the majority of the crowd is gonna fly them.
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Greetings,
I would like to see a rolling plane set. I do not favor highly perking late model planes while everyone else is limited to early model.
I would also like to see a perk system for all planes. The purpose of the perk points would be more to encourage people not to piss away aircraft on suicide runs. If every plane cost "something" then if you continue to piss them away you slowly work backwards til you can fly an IL-2 or a goonie!
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Sure verm, put your average La7/n1k jock in his "security blanket" Fw190...
im sure he's gonna be just a killer as he in now in the MA ;) :D
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Originally posted by J_A_B
[BThe fact that the AH MA is capable of supporting the entire nightly player base of AH is what kills alternate arenas. J_A_B [/B]
Politely disagree.
What "kills" the alternate arenas is the simple fact that none.... none... of the choices offer anywhere near as much fast action and "fun" as the MA does.
Boys just want to have fun. (Girls too.)
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Actually the mass exdous of Warbird IMHO didn't start untill WarbirdIII for many reason. Not that warbirdIII is not a good sim it's just not a finished product. CPU upgrading problems new cards and such. Funny thing though i did upgrade my Video card to play warbirdsIII an it played fine on my old 600Mhz duron. AH on the other hand i had to upgrade my Processor also to get my FPS to increase to a playable framerate.
I played Warbird 2.77 when they had the Axis and Allied arena and loved it. I also seen it when it had close to 300 player in it also. Just like in AH.
I like the RPS it let you fly an early warbird with other early warbirds. and everything kinda blanced out the Axis had and Adv. early and the Allied froces had Adv. in late war. only becuase of the late modeled Larger bomber on the Allied side. If all large bombers of the Era where modeled then it might have been closer in late war.
I don't really like fighting a spit with a spit or p51 against a p47 or 190 and 109 etc etc...but that's AH and i like it here also mainly because of the strat and the #'s of course. AH is closer to a finished product than WarbirdsIII. There's good in both sim's imho.
I Also like the Perk system in AH this diminishes the ablility of player to take adv of planes like the me262 to use them all day long. All you would see are me262's flying around or atleast a lot more of them that would just get annoying.
Use the same Perk system just dont introduce them until that point in the RPS. That way if you did well and acumulated 200 points you could then fly the me262 etc.
I think the perk system would have work real well in Warbirds 2.77. you wouldnt have heard all of the squeaking that insued on Sunday [jet day] and all would have been well.
Just my 2cents worth.
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seperate arenas don't work.... RPS's piss people off..... rolling perk set is a joke of mamoth proportions (all lopsided all the time... never fly against your peers arena).
I still see no real solution other than the "area arena". If early war planes are to have any chance.... if they deserve a chance... in any arena, then, it is an "area arena" that will show us. Early war planes need to have a chance without interferance from late war or idiotic "perk" planes but they don't deserve a chance unless there is total choice. "area arena" allows them an area and choice for them, and, for everyone.
lazs
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Like many of you, I went through the rolling plane set in WB and the allied-axis and wouldn't want either to be the only choice in Aces High.
I personally much prefer the no-holds-barred main arena where we have the ride of our choice 24/7 and no excuses. Certain planes I just like better than others, but I want my choice of all planes all the time.
But for those who prefer more historical matchups, could Aces High add a separate rolling plane set arena? Along with Main, CT, Training, Dueling, a Rolling Set Arena would give us the best of everything, wouldn't it?
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halo... an "area arena" would allow for an "anything goes 24/7" and.... still allow for a viable place in the arena for early war planes. Everyone would still be part of the "comunity" and everyone could fly any plane they liked in the arena any time they liked with more parity than we have now.
lazs
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I love this idea!!!! now people will not have that same old "It won't survive in the MA" excuse when people want early warplanes (ei biplanes in my case:D)!
Infact we are low on early war planes, so that gives me an even Better excuse for adding gloster gladiator, I-16's,I-153's etc etc;)
and will make early war planes usefull! this is the greatest Idea ever, and won't need any programming on HTC's part... I dont think?
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I'd like an RPS. It'd give me a chance to fly an F4F or P40 without getting continuously raped by 51s, D9s, LA7s and many others. I've heard some make points about people cancelling their account in disgust because they might not be able to fly their every single day. But how many will shy away because they can't fly their favorite plane (which just so happens to be an early-war aircraft) with enjoyment (not getting shot down the minute you see an enemy) for even just a few days? And don't tell me there is nothing preventing anyone from actually taking a Wildcat or Warhawk into the MA. How long is the typical player going to keep his account if he can't ever survive a fight in his *favorite*, i.e., early-war bird of choice?
WW2 didn't only take place in 1945.
Amen!
I'm still flying WBIII but if there was an RPS, I might actually open that AH account as well. I like AH. Its good game.
I also absolutely do not agree that the RPS drove people away from warbirds. It went in quite a while a go and WB reached its peak popularity when it was well-entrenched in the game, perhaps 2 years after it was introduced.
What is the big deal with having to choose a P40 over a P51 for 1 week? The fights you have in early war are far more intense! The guns are less lethal and the planes are more manoeuverable. The fighting is fast, furious, and hey, being forced to fly a P40, Emil, or a Hurricane just might make you a better pilot in the end....
Stridr
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It would certainly aggravate me to have to 1)pay for any model P-47 in the MA or 2) have to wait till a certain day to fly any model P-47.
No thx
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Because stridr most of us don't want to fly early war planes.
And please don't tell us how "warbirds was" because many of us came from there, and started in WB's back in the beta days. We are quite aware of its history.
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most of us don't want to fly early war planes.
I for one love early war planes, and the RPS of WB is why I left AW. But early war planes aren't alot of fun in the1945 Arena of AH.
CAV
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No roll, perk'em all
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I wonder what Pyros long term intentions with the perk system were and if different today, are?
Did he simply see it as a stop gap measure, or excuse, to add rare machines? Or did he see it as a method to bring stability to a widely varied planeset?
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IMO the RPS worked well in AW's Fighertown arena but there was always a couple of arenas that offered the full planeset. Forcing an RPS in AH's MA would make more than a few people happy but at the expense of the majority of the player base...this is not a good thing.
Using the CT to promote the use of the early war planeset is the best solution IMO since it would have little effect on the people that enjoy the entire planeset.
The numbers would tell if infact the RPS is acceptable and fun for the majority of the playerbase.
Limiting choices to an RPS in the MA would NOT be a smart move marketing wise.
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yeager... my guess is that HTC was real busy when they thought up the perk system and needed a way to get a few "gee wizz" show planes in the set without pissing most players off. I think it was a good idea to give em some breathing room. I think it's gone as far as it canh/should.
lazs
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AH already has an RPS. There are A/C from the Spit I to the Me-262 and you can fly them in any order you want.
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I would like RPS in axis vs. allies arena with no icons. :D
But whatever..
When I start my account I can spend my time in CT.
Main arenas are usually just one big shoot'em ups. Im not so action type of guy. :)
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I kinda liked Rip's idea......but mebbe just reset EVERYONES' perks at start of each tour..then any fiter beyond...hmmm..spitV..is perked. Of course the real good pilots will amass heap many points by end of camp, but for first week or so...all will be evenly matched
bj229R
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Cheap rolling perk set, please!
Camo
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I'm in favor of doing SOMETHING to break the constant monotony of the MA. I mean, damn near all you see are spits, N1s, la7s, and 51s, with some F4Us, F6Fs, 38s, Doras, and 109s thrown in for minimal variety. Every TD it's always the same 4 or 5 planes having the vast bulk of the sorties and the same 5 or 6 more making up most of the remainder. So like 80% of the planeset hardly sees any use at all.
The only way this will ever change is if these 8-10 popular planes are not available at all. Otherwise, most folks will continue to fly them because the odds just ain't with the other planes in the type of fight typical in the MA. So this other 80% of the planeset will only be flown occasionally by the curious, the ignorant, and those seeking a deliberate handicap. Which, in a nutshell, is what happens now.
The question, therefore, is whether or not removing these popular planes from circulation, at least for part of a TD, is a good idea. It will certainly annoy some folks. OTOH, the present same-ol'-same-ol' situation has already annoyed a lot of folks, or there wouldn't be threads like this one. Obviously, no single thing is going to make everybody happy at once. So to me, the only fair thing is to take turns being annoyed. I'm annoyed now and have been for some time, so I say it's the turn of the spit9 and lamer7 dweebs :D. Get them damn things outta here!
An RPS might be nice. However, I did NOT like the way WB did it. WB so compressed the 1st several years of the war, and so extended the last few months, that in effect it was the same as not having an RPS at all. Things changed too fast in the 1st part of the camp for any patterns to emerge--new planes appeared every stinkin' day-- and then it bogged down into what we have today in AH's MA: all the late-war planes, all the time.
So if AH ever gets an RPS, I'd like to see things balanced in duration. Say 1 week of the TD = 1 year and all planes that appeared that year are available all week. Or better yet, make an entire TD equal 1 real year, so that it takes 4 or 5 whole TDs to work through the planeset. In each TD, perk different rides to get the same effect we have now with all planes. I favor this latter option because it puts people on an even footing long enough for everybody to get accustomed to the available planes. Different planes would be found to dominate the MA's typical action and folks would have to learn how to use them. Plus it avoids a WB problem where folks would just sit out a week or so of the camp until their plane became available, or after the planes they hated did so. If you take those planes away for months, you take away that option. Then the late-war lamers will either quit entirely (good riddance IMHO) or show up and learn to fly other stuff, maybe discovering something they like enough to keep flying in the late-war TD (thus improving the variety then). Plus, it would mean I could go for a couple months at a time w/out seeing the planes I'm totally sick of constantly seeing.
Another option would be to do something like AW used to do and have alternating TDs with PTO and ETO planesets, without worrying about dates. This would provide some variety while still giving the habitual drivers of the popular rides most of their favorites in both TDs, especially the ETO. Look at what's popular every TD (more or less in order): spit9, La7, 51, N1, spit5, F4U, F6F, 38, Typhoon, Dora, 109G10. In the PTO, you'd have the 51, N1, seafire (basically a spit5), F4U, F6F, and 38. In the ETO you'd have the spit9, La7, 51, spit5, 38, Typhoon, Dora, and G10.
Anyway, whatever happens, I'd really like to see something change the daily fare in the MA while avoiding the problems of WB's skewed RPS. If that pisses some folks off, too bad--it's their turn ;)
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As long as you're going for a rolling planeset, why not carry it a step further and go for a rolling perk set, too?
Think about the way that aircraft allocations happened in RL -- when a new model came out, the aces would be preferentially given access to the planes. So you could set it up so that the RPS started with a set of available planes, and as the RPS rotates through, each new plane would be perked initially to represent the first few arrivals being given to the high-scoring pilots, then as more started arriving, the perk cost would shrink until it went away for the common aircraft (planes which are perked now would only have their perk cost reduced to their normal perk cost).
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yep... all these "fresh" ideas would work as well here as they did in AW and WB. Perhaps AH could become as popular as those two games.
lazs
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Actually, the perk-system does work…up to a point. The fact is, you see very few perk planes in the MA relative to the number of unperked planes. Spit-XIV’s, Tempests, Ta152’s, Me262’s, Arados; how many of these to you see daily compared with the number P-51’s, Spit-IX’s, N1K2’s, etc? Short of a separate arena for early-war planes (or a completely segregated early-war area in the MA, which amounts to the same thing IMO), these early planes will always be the exception rather than the rule. But we might be able to make the currently unperked planes late-war aircraft a bit more rare. How about keep the perk system, but just expand it to include more of the late war birds?
WAIT! I’m not through yet. Right now, the number of perks earned is determined solely by your plane and the one you shoot down. Why not establish a handicap system like golfing uses? Base each person’s perk earning potential at least partially on their number of hours on-line, or perhaps by the number of kills, or on K/D (reset when you drop your account and restart it). The more experienced the pilot, the lower their handicap. New pilots would earn perks quicker, more experienced pilots more slowely. There would be some minimum and maximum possible handicap, of course. At the start of a new tour, reset all perk accounts to a specific amount, so that everyone gets a few perk planes to start the tour with. Everyone would still earn perks, but the better you are, the harder you’d have to work at it because of your handicap. The combination of more planes requiring perks to fly and perk handicaps just might shift the nominal core of popular rides to earlier in the war. Flame away!
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Originally posted by Sabre
Why not establish a handicap system like golfing uses? Base each person’s perk earning potential at least partially on their number of hours on-line, or perhaps by the number of kills, or on K/D (reset when you drop your account and restart it). The more experienced the pilot, the lower their handicap. New pilots would earn perks quicker, more experienced pilots more slowely.
Sabre, that the best most original idea for improving the perk system I've heard in a long time! Great! Why didn't I come up with it? And I call myself a golfer... sheesh... ;)
How about determining the handicap by the amount of perk points a player has? This would be a good measure of experience, right? The less perk points you have, the easier it is to get more. The more perk points you have, the harder it gets to get more. The biggest problem would be to determine the limits... Hmmm, how does the slope system work again...
Camo
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sabre... you still want a system that punishes people for flying early war planes. I don't want an arena where the goal is to fly late war planes. I don't care who is flying the late war planes I simply don't want them spoiling a good early war fight. I would like early war planes to be useful on their own and not just punishment planes or behavior modifiers.
The area arena is not sepertate arenas.. A person could fly any plane he liked and communicate and track what is happening in the entire arena. OTOH....The perk arena is the ultimate "seperate arena" it is the Have and have not arena's... It is not only seperated into those who have the late war planes and those who can't... it is seperated by it's lopsidedness.
lazs
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Thanks, Camo. Knowing how Rip is such a big golfer, I was quite surprised he hadn't though of it himself.
Lazs: I'm not sure I understand how the perk system (as is, or as modified with a handicap system) punishes people for flying early war planes. It's not a punishment for those that fly less capable aircraft, because nothing is taken from them when they do. It in fact rewards them with more perks, which gives them access to more aircraft choices. My suggestion was meant to see if we could make the current system more useful without having to scrap or drastically alter gameplay in the MA as it is currently implemented.
The current system works to a point, but does't address your basic concern, i.e. keeping the era's separate. I understand that. We've discussed adnausium the pros and cons of separate arenas and area arenas, and I'm fully cognizant of your views on the subject. Even if an area arena or separate early-war arena were established, it would not do away with the need for the perk system or something like it. Not unless you had a separate arena or area for every 6 months of the war...and even you might agree that's not practical.
Given that, how would you suggest the perk system be changed, assuming we don't go to a RPS? Also (at the risk of hijacking the thread), would the ability to track other arenas using the clipboard from within an arena be an acceptable substitute to the "area-arena" option? Do you think that would make separate arenas a viable alternative? Assume for a moment that you won't ever get an area-arena MA. What would be the next best thing?
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sabre... we are not understanding each other. You APPEAR to believe that early war planes would be viable because a person could get out of the nasy little punishment rides easily (early war sorties worth more perkies). I believe that flying early war planes should be an end to itself. A viable plane choice. Not a means of getting into something "better".
MY idea allows u to fly early war planes aginst their peers. Your idea guarentees that early war planes are at a disadvantage 100% of the time with their only saving grace being a shortcut to the "real arena planes"
I don't think that "area" arenas even need perk rides. You could even have a perk area with nothing but the uber rides. Every area will have some few planes that are a little better and a little more popular but.... nothing like it is now. mid war is rich in parity as is early... There are many late war planes that are a tossup ability wise. It only becomes crazy and a patchwork perk system necessity when you mix all the generations together. No... I don't want any perk rides. Why put the best players in the best planes or.... deprive the worst players of the best planes?
maps that toggle... that was my other idea as an option. I don't like it as much but it beats hell out of anything I've seen tried so far anywhere. If you could toggle through the maps of each "arena" and communicate with that arena and... click on a field in that arena and simply be there... yeah... it would be an improvement.
lazs
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Quite the contrary, Lazs. I do understand you...I just don't necessarily agree with you on all points. Perhaps I should have phrased it differently. Instead of saying "I'm not sure I understand how the perk system (as is, or as modified with a handicap system) punishes people for flying early war planes," I guess I should have said "I don't see it as punishment." Rather, I see the later a/c as rewards. I suppose it reflects our differing outlooks on life. You'll also note the following statement:
The current system works to a point, but does't address your basic concern, i.e. keeping the era's separate. I understand that.
You want a place to fly early war rides with reasonable parity. Correct? The perk system is designed to shift the aircraft choice downwards in terms of capability, but will not address the aircraft parity issue in absolute terms. I don't dispute that, and never have. Only an RPS or separate arenas or areas can do that. That's not the point of the perk system. Its purpose is to limit the number of uber-planes you see in the MA. It can and does do that. My suggestion was to alter it to do a more equitable job. We're not arguing the same argument here.
You APPEAR to believe that early war planes would be viable because a person could get out of the nasy little punishment rides easily (early war sorties worth more perkies).
Nope. Not what I said, and not what I mean. Getting out of early war rides faster doesn't make them more viable. Also, I don't see them as "nasy" (I assume you mean "nasty"). If however some changes to the perk system results in a general shift to earlier a/c, than by default it get's a little easier for those early planes to compete. It won't help a mediocre pilot in a P-40B if it's caught by a 109G-10 flown by an experten, but it might make that occurance more rare. Plus, by making the newbie's task of getting that 109G-10 a bit easier, and the hot-stick's job a bit tougher, you level the playing field...not aircraft to aircraft, but pilot to pilot. You're looking for aircraft parity...I'm seeking parity in the contest (the combination of aircraft capability and pilot quality).
In any event, I would be interested to see how you would divide up the planeset by era, and into how many areas. Let's see some details. Post a list. I can see it being every bit as debated as what perk costs and ENY values each aircraft should have under the current perk system. Nonetheless, give it a try and let us see what you think. No generalities allowed (the tool of the intellectually timid)...give us an exact list please.
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sabre... the reason the "perk" sytem works now is because it doesn't... Nobody flys perk planes. the median ability plane is not affected because pek planes are so rare. if you perked all planes to make early planes more visible.... you would piss off the majority of players and not help the early war aficianados much. The perk system has painted itself into a corner.
Ok... as I said... for now, an early war area would be fine. Mid/late/uber could remain the same with the current "perk" system in place. Better to take small steps and... get the patient breathing first... stop the bleedimg later.
early war set. NOT allied vs axis...
f4f
p39
p40b
p40e
spit 1
109e
early 110
a6m2
val
ki43
mig1
il16
hurri 1
I am sure that there are others of parity
lazs
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" In any event, I would be interested to see how you would divide up the planeset by era, and into how many areas. Let's see some details. Post a list. I can see it being every bit as debated as what perk costs and ENY values each aircraft should have under the current perk system. Nonetheless, give it a try and let us see what you think. No generalities allowed (the tool of the intellectually timid)...give us an exact list please.
__________________
Sabre
(S-2, The Buccaneers)"
still here sabre? Comments?
lazs
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guess sabre likes it or is on vacation. I will declare victory in any case.
lazs
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Actually, I was at Boy Scout camp with my son. That list looks acceptable as a start. I would add the Dauntless, the Ju88, and (once we get them) one or two other early-war bombers. As I've stated before -- and as I recall, you agreed -- there must be the tools to allow base capture, or your early war arena/sub-arena will be deserted. Base capture is the catalyst for action, and these early war fighters generally lack the ability to carry a useful JABO load. You also need the ability to hit area targets like cities and factories because some people care about doing so. I think a separate arena, but with the ability to see the other arenas (and perhaps jump directly from one arena to another as you've suggested) from the clipboard is the best way to implement this. Least impact to the strategic game and logistics there in.
As far as declaring victory, feel free if it makes you happy. I just wanted to see something concrete from you for a change.:D Cheers.
P.S. I disagree with your assessment about the perk system not working. People do fly perk planes...you just don't see them in the numbers you would if they were free. And even the best pilots get shot down in them. Because you see fewer perked planes, the mid-war planes remain viable and numerous. However, I agree that it doesn't work well enough to make the very early war rides a viable choice. I simply feel that there are some non-perked planes in the current MA planeset that could be perked just a tad, making them a little less numerous too. The handicap perk system would level the playing field a bit better, getting newbies into perked planes a little sooner and in greater numbers. Again, not a perfect solution, but one that would appear to be fairly easy to implement within the framework of the game code.
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we agree on most everything except the main point of the perk system being of any use whatsoever except to make planes that should't be in the arena so rare as to be allmost unheard of.... allmost unheard of equals "not annoying". Calling out the perk planes with special icons (they should be pink too) also works because it further stigmatizes them and paints a target on them. If most of the planes were perked it would destroy that valuable quality.
The system you suggest does nothing for early war planes except to make them a little more frequently seen and to make people resent the fact that they are being punished by being forced to fly em in an arena where they are outclassed.
lazs
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If most of the planes were perked it would destroy that valuable quality.
Not "most;" just a few more than there are now. And not perked heavily like the 262, F4U-4, or Spit-XIV...more like the Chog.
The system you suggest does nothing for early war planes except to make them a little more frequently seen and to make people resent the fact that they are being punished by being forced to fly em in an arena where they are outclassed.
There would still be plenty of mid-war non-perked rides, so no one would be forced to pick an early war ride. Perhaps I wasn't clear enough on that point, or perhaps you just missed it. I believe I've said several times that the very early war planes would not be made significanly more numerous by the modifications to the perk system I and others have suggested. I do believe it would make them marginally more competative in the MA, since the average aircraft choice would be closer to mid-war than to late war as it is now (1943 era). However, not competative enough to make them a ride of choice in the MA.
To sum it up as I see it, HTC can choose to go several ways on the issue of increasing the usuage of early war planes in the MA. An RPS is very controversial, and my gut instinct says it would be unpopular with the majority. They could try modifying the perk system somehow, to try to get more people to fly early war in the MA, but that would not make the early war rides more fun to fly. It would make the mid-war rides more competative and prevalent, but that's not what you're after, Lazs. They could add a separate early war arena, or a sub-arena as you've suggested. A sub-arena (or "area-arena" as you call it) would require some major changes to gameplay as it exist today, and possibly significant software changes. To be viable, a separate early-war MA would have to be more accessible (or at least visible) from the Mid to late war MA (which would still need a perk system in place). Lastly, HTC could simply decide to keep things as they are, with the early war planes seeing their main usuage in the CT, events, and scenario. Perhaps if I get the chance to ask HiTech at the con, he'll slip up and give us a clue ;). What's his favorite drink again?
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I too will be at the con so perhaps we can discuss this in person where I am not quite so clumsy.
I get confused with the difference between "seeing more early war planes" and "making em viable" I don't want to see more of em if I am still in a mid war plane because they offer no challenge and.... seeing more perk rides is even worse. I see no advantage to the perk system as you describe it at all. I do see how my idea could at least improve the arena tho. parity and viability wise along with variety. I believe all three things need to be of equal importance.
lazs