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General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Heinkel on June 25, 2002, 09:53:33 PM

Title: 190 Roll Rate Chart (NACA) w/ Stick Forces
Post by: Heinkel on June 25, 2002, 09:53:33 PM
here
Title: 190 Roll Rate Chart (NACA) w/ Stick Forces
Post by: Karnak on June 25, 2002, 10:03:24 PM
Yup, that's the same 'ol NACA chart that has been debated over and over.
Title: 190 Roll Rate Chart (NACA) w/ Stick Forces
Post by: Heinkel on June 25, 2002, 10:15:11 PM
Don't worry, i have like 4-5 more thing on the subject...just trying how to figure out to downsize them to fit on BBS
Title: 190 Roll Rate Chart (NACA) w/ Stick Forces
Post by: Heinkel on June 25, 2002, 10:15:42 PM
.
Title: 190 Roll Rate Chart (NACA) w/ Stick Forces
Post by: Heinkel on June 25, 2002, 10:16:26 PM
whops, pic did't attach
Title: 190 Roll Rate Chart (NACA) w/ Stick Forces
Post by: Heinkel on June 25, 2002, 10:18:16 PM
In Comparsion to f6f, F4u
Title: 190 Roll Rate Chart (NACA) w/ Stick Forces
Post by: Heinkel on June 25, 2002, 10:28:04 PM
Hmmm...i can't post other two., they won't fit on BBS, and if i convert to JPG, lots of quality lost.
Title: 190 Roll Rate Chart (NACA) w/ Stick Forces
Post by: funkedup on June 25, 2002, 11:06:45 PM
FWIW, all Corsairs had boost tabs, on the ailerons as well as the elevators.
Title: 190 Roll Rate Chart (NACA) w/ Stick Forces
Post by: Glasses on June 26, 2002, 03:13:12 AM
Sorry to hijack but  does anyone  have roll rate figures for the 109Emil that could perhaps post it in another thread.

 thanks.
Title: 190 Roll Rate Chart (NACA) w/ Stick Forces
Post by: GRUNHERZ on June 26, 2002, 04:22:06 AM
The Bf109E had no ailerons. :(
Title: 190 Roll Rate Chart (NACA) w/ Stick Forces
Post by: funkedup on June 26, 2002, 04:28:26 AM
It's a little-known fact that the original Bf 109 had no control surfaces whatsoever.  The pilot controlled the plane by waving his arms about and shifting his weight in the cockpit.  It was not until Kurt Tank invented primary flight controls that Messerschmitt was able to overcome this technological hurdle.
Title: 190 Roll Rate Chart (NACA) w/ Stick Forces
Post by: Hortlund on June 26, 2002, 04:52:32 AM
Quote
Originally posted by funkedup
It's a little-known fact that the original Bf 109 had no control surfaces whatsoever.  The pilot controlled the plane by waving his arms about and shifting his weight in the cockpit.  It was not until Kurt Tank invented primary flight controls that Messerschmitt was able to overcome this technological hurdle.


ROFL!! :D

Oh great, I bet my boss is wondering what I'm doing right now.
Title: 190 Roll Rate Chart (NACA) w/ Stick Forces
Post by: Glasses on June 26, 2002, 02:31:31 PM
LOL! Well funked I still want to know the roll rate. Supossedly it was the best rolling and best turning 109 of all the series at low airspeeds,then again a lot of things that are suppossed  to be are not  :rolleyes: so let me get out of the way  :D  .


Please continue with the  Fw190 discussion.
Title: 190 Roll Rate Chart (NACA) w/ Stick Forces
Post by: mw on June 26, 2002, 02:46:26 PM
There are roll and turn diagrams for the 109E on my Spit I page; see signature.
Title: 190 Roll Rate Chart (NACA) w/ Stick Forces
Post by: Kweassa on June 26, 2002, 07:25:52 PM
I thought the evidence was pretty clear in previous posts few months back that either AH 109E rolls too slow, or SpitMkI rolls dang too fast.. anyhow, I'm a layman in these technical stuff.. maybe something I missed??

 ..

 What I seem to notice is, wow, are the "F" wings and the "LF" wings really so much different in the Spitfire?? Clip a teeney section and the roll rate increase seems almost dramatical improvement.. impressive! Would there be a negative downside to the clipped wings??
Title: 190 Roll Rate Chart (NACA) w/ Stick Forces
Post by: RRAM on June 26, 2002, 07:45:02 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Kweassa


 What I seem to notice is, wow, are the "F" wings and the "LF" wings really so much different in the Spitfire?? Clip a teeney section and the roll rate increase seems almost dramatical improvement.. impressive! Would there be a negative downside to the clipped wings??



Less wing area, so a higher wingloading and stall speed. I also think the clipping added some speed in the range of 3-4mph to the top speed of the clipped Dweebfire.

There might be another effects of the clipping but I'm not sure about them. Ask a dweebfire lover ;). FUnked ,for instance :)


P.S. All "Dweebfire" comments are strictly tongue-in-cheek. Just in case someone feels offended, it's just a joke :D
Title: 190 Roll Rate Chart (NACA) w/ Stick Forces
Post by: Karnak on June 26, 2002, 08:48:02 PM
Clipped wing Spits have a higher stall speed and larger turn radius than non clipped Spits.  Not all LF Spits were clipped, many in fact had normal Spit wings.

Glasses,

The Bf109E might have been the best turning 109, maybe the Bf109F-4, but the Bf109E was most definately not the best rolling 109.  It was in fact the worst rolling 109.  The new wings introduced in the F series improved the 109's roll performances, though not as dramatically as the metal ailerons of the Spitfire Mk V did over the cloth ailerons of the Spitfire Mk I.

In my opinion, based on what I have read, the Bf109E-4 should out roll the Spitfire Mk I and Mk II.  All other Spitfires should handily outroll any and all Bf109s.
Title: 190 Roll Rate Chart (NACA) w/ Stick Forces
Post by: Glasses on June 26, 2002, 11:08:22 PM
Well thanks for the replies then it is agreed there might be something odd about the roll rate of the 109E or Spit I,me thinks the latter will get the fix, AH has a history of de tuning aircraft not  adding performance.  

Frankly I found it odd since the Emil  goes from  Wet Cement to brick quickly leaving little room to maneuver at all . I  also did find even the Hurri I  having a better roll rate in low to medium airspeeds,  historically the Emil had the roll advantage and intial turn at lower airspeeds which in AH  does not.
Title: 190 Roll Rate Chart (NACA) w/ Stick Forces
Post by: niklas on June 27, 2002, 01:37:47 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Karnak

The Bf109E might have been the best turning 109, maybe the Bf109F-4, but the Bf109E was most definately not the best rolling 109.  It was in fact the worst rolling 109.  


Where do you want to know this from? The "45°" bank chart isnīt even for sustained rolling, thus includes also the time to move the stick. Do you have a sustained rolling chart for the E?

The rollrate chart for the E is indeed very poor, and even poorer for the spit - so poor that i canīt imagine fighter would have been accepted with such a characteristics. So it would be interesting (due to a lack of other data) how the test was done.

The ailerons of the E cover a larger area and reach up to the wingtips, basically they could be better for rolling than those of a F or G, at least at slow speeds

niklas