Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Axis vs Allies => Topic started by: eskimo2 on June 26, 2002, 12:52:54 PM
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I think that the biggest problem with the current set-up is that the map is very stagnant as far as base captures go, perhaps the most stagnant I have ever seen. All battles from the center are uphill time-line-wise, that is players must use earlier war planes to fight progressively later war planes. I knew that this would become and issue, but figured that it could easily be overcome by the lopsided numbers that we often see in the CT.
I think the multi-era theme has had too great of an impact on game-play, especially the way it was implemented this week. The CT this week could have moved to mid and late war front line fights, but has instead remained early war with an occasional jet and Tempest showing up. It would have worked better if there were more of a reward for base capture. As it stands this week, if you capture a base using 1941 planes, you get 1942 planes. With these 1942 planes you must fight against 1943 planes, unless you fight laterally, in which case you are fighting against the same era. My original idea for this set-up included a new map idea with closer bases. With the current set-up, if you don't like any of the front line planes, you are looking at a minimum 50 mile flight just to get to the enemies front line base.
I'm not sure why, but I never saw the Allies putting up an offensive campaign, and am not sure if German territory was ever captured, not what I expected with the numbers advantage to the Allies. It seemed as if the Allies were only trying to recover lost land. I did see some Allied fighter sweeps into German land, but no base capture task groups.
I still like the one-fighter-per-base idea though. I figured that the Axis had the plane advantage early war/mid-map, and the Allies would hold the advantage late war/on the edges. I have found, however, that the Hurri IIC is a very competitive match for the 109E, if not a superior aircraft. I also loved the one plane type verses another fights that occurred. As I figured from the beginning, one side usually had an aircraft advantage, but there were also some very good match-ups this week. The 109G-2s from the Finish CV had some great fights against the Spit Vs at A23, and also matched well against P-47D-11s at A-36.
OK, enough of my thoughts, what (if anything) about this weeks set-up did you like?
What didn't you like?
Did you try this weeks set-up, and did you fly more or less than you have in the recent past (in the CT)?
If it were to be repeated, what would you change? (Map, less of an uphill time-line fight, more than one plane per base, more bombers, drop the multi-era concept, etc.)
Did this set-up give you any new ideas for a future set up, in any way?
eskimo
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My squad was in there last night and had a lot of fun. The terrain is somewhat uninspiring, but I didnt mind the setup. Has to be some variety in the CT setups, I wouldnt complain if a similar setup was done again, with a better terrain, at some point in the future.
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LAME!!!!!! zzzzzzz zzzzzzz zzzzzzz zzzzzzzz zzzzzzzzz
Still, don't get me wrong, it has the potential for a good set-up if worked right.
Have Forward fields with no aircraft available. Only armor available & refueling & rearming services. If the forward fields were pretty close, spawn points for the armor could be on the front line and ground warfare could take place that would count toward the strategic end and influence the capturing of a field. Also it would set the field for some A2G missions.
Have mid-range fields where all the fighters and goons would have to come from.
Have the bombers available from fields further back.
Have the CV fleets available as "wildcards" to keep the threat of invasion from the sea something that would have to be guarded against. Plus for those that want - you could have just the ship to ship battles.
Lastly, I will be the first to admitt this WILL NEVER WORK. For the simple reason that NO ONE wants to take the time to ferry up planes before they can use them and it will take time to do a mission thus cutting down on the furballing.
Such is AH. (SIGH)
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i liked the idea but i think for it to fully work we need numbers and sadly we dont have them
last night was fun with 30+ in the arena had some good fights in my e4 but we need more than that
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For whatever reason the normal small handful of PST players just were not there this week. The little bit I was able to play was 109-E vs. Spit I and Hurri I so I never really was able to get a feel for it. But even so I found that I really didn't want to invest as much flight time as it seemed to me it would take to get an 190A-5 in amongst the Spit I's. For this reason I think the map was a bit large for my taste.
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Good fights g2 vs spit vs? Eskimo, you were on a vulch fest last time I saw you in there. Not saying that it isnt partially the guy taking off, but you were out of control.
Hitting guys on the rearm pad, hitting as they roll. lame....................
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Originally posted by ergRTC
Good fights g2 vs spit vs? Eskimo, you were on a vulch fest last time I saw you in there. Not saying that it isnt partially the guy taking off, but you were out of control.
Hitting guys on the rearm pad, hitting as they roll. lame....................
I have no qualms about vulching, and I make no apologies. I use every weapon in AH for vulching, will target anything, and am everything but shameful of my vulching activities. I have been playing flight sims for quite some time, and came to realize quit some time ago that vulching is part of the game. Its not; good, bad, skill less or lame, but it is part of the game. Vulching is, however, both fun and an effective strategy.
I also do not complain about others who vulch, even when I am the target. I also am one of the few who is often very willing to fly for the "bad guys", even when greatly outnumbered, giving you (and those who fly only Allied) a target. I also am one of the few who is often very willing to solo defend a field against any number of attackers, giving you (and those who fly only Allied) a target. And I pull every dirty trick in the book, especially when outnumbered!
So what do you call it when the balance is 23-Allied to 9-Axis, and only 3 Axis are engaged in hitting a field that is protected by Tempests, P-47s, Spit-14s and P-51s, and one of the little 109G-2s slips in, de-acks the field, and blasts a few guys who are taking off or re-arming right in the middle of a swarm of enemy?
I call it FUN! & you whine and call it Lame vulching, LOL
It's funny that you have a problem with vulching, Mr. ergRTC. I have a nice film from the Yamamoto scenario, of you diving on my ditched Zero, guns blazing. (Too bad you augered, 347 mph is a bit fast to be vulching at a 30 degree angle.) :) {Does that classify as vulching, or kill-stealing from your squad-mates?} :)
Needless to say, I had some great 109G-2 vulches, and, I had some great fights in my 109G-2 Vs. Spit Vs.
eskimo
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You may quote me on this..............
"If you aint vulching, you aint trying":D
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Skillless yes.
I know you are good pilot, so it seems odd that you vulch. Or are you padding the old resume? (edit:there are appropriate times for vulching like when you attempting to capture a base...)
I cant believe you are still stuck on this side balance issue. . I was in a 51b tuesday for a long time, and I saw plenty of nme north of the base you were vulching. In fact I was jumped by a couple of 262s, many 190s and a handful of 109s. Bar dar indicated many more nme in relevant sectors than friendlies.
As far as augering in the yamamoto, I would be interested in seeing this. I dont remember augering. In fact I survived both sorties (well had to auger when we were supposed to the first frame but I doubt that is what you are talking about).
And as far as not switching sides goes, here are my axiz kill stats for tours 5 and 6
kills in
zero 2
109e 2
110 2
202 6
205 5
ju88 2
ki 61 3
out of a total of 104 kills. And died 21 times in axis planes. I always try to survive my sortie, even without a kill so these numbers are a very conservative estimate of my time as axis.
Eskimo since you play this game for 2 hours a day everyday I suppose you would do about anything to keep yourself occupied.
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So, good pilots aren't allowed to vulch?
We have resumes? WOW, who looks at them?
Dude, I do what I do because it's fun.
You really should try doing the same. Anyone who gets ticked off as often as you while playing probably needs to re-evaluate how they spend their leisure time. Loosen up RTC.
My bad, you spend 20% of your time flying for the underdog. Good for you.
My point was that when you fly on the side with vastly superior numbers, you sound like nothing but a whiner when you complain about the enemies tactics. As was the case Tuesday. Am I whining about the numbers, no. I just don't like being whined at when I'm flying for the underdog.
My film showed that you augered as I exited. Perhaps it was a film glitch because I exited. But the point, which you dodged, is that you were vulching, and/or kill-stealing from your squad-mates.
Anyway, to you have anything constructive to add to this thread about the original topic.
eskimo
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I am not sure whos kill I was supposed to be stealing. When you are flying in a wing, you do what it takes to keep your friends alive. Any f6f friend of mine that got slow with a zeke needs help. I would be interested in seeing that film.
I was not upset about this vulching incident, as I had nothing to do with it. I am just passing on information about how you spend your time, cause I think it is cheesy.
As far as this thread, I agree with most of what you said, just that little snippet about g2s vs
spits
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eskimo says
but there were also some -> very good match-ups this week<-.
The 109G-2s from the Finish CV had some great fights against the Spit Vs at A23,
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and that is how this all started..................
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Got to say I'm surprised and kind of sad by this. It is unusual for CT forum topics to degenerate to vulch or arena numbers as they all seem to do in the genreal forum. We just need to work HO's and "dweeb rides" into this somehow to complete the cycle.
(Having added nothing to thread I now go back to eating my lunch.)
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Originally posted by ergRTC
I am not sure whos kill I was supposed to be stealing. When you are flying in a wing, you do what it takes to keep your friends alive. Any f6f friend of mine that got slow with a zeke needs help. I would be interested in seeing that film.
I see your point, an A6M floating on the ocean is quite a threat! :)
Originally posted by ergRTC
I was not upset about this vulching incident, as I had nothing to do with it. I am just passing on information about how you spend your time, cause I think it is cheesy.
AH regulars who know me know that I vulch, HO, and do all kinds of "Cheesy stuff", you are whining about how others play, which is about the only lame thing that you can do in AH, IMO. Everyone is typically much happier when players avoid whining about how or what others choose to fly. Do you really think that I am going to stop vulching because a few people whine about it? LOL. Heck, some people whine about getting bounced. So therefore no
one should be allowed to bounce another player? Maybe no one should be allowed to engage another plane until they are at equal energy states, gotta be fair you know... woo hoo, that would be fun!
RTC, I would much rather be labled a "cheesy vulcher" than "play-by-my-rules-whiner" anyday!
BTW, I happened to have a face to face conversation with Hitech about vulching at last years con, he said that vulching is your reward for knocking down the ack and getting control of the airspace at an enemy field.
Originally posted by ergRTC
As far as this thread, I agree with most of what you said, just that little snippet about g2s vs
spits
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eskimo says
but there were also some -> very good match-ups this week<-.
The 109G-2s from the Finish CV had some great fights against the Spit Vs at A23,
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and that is how this all started..................
You also said that I fly everyday (I fly 3 or 4 nights a week actually), so why do you assume that what you saw Tuesday night was the only 109G-2 Vs. Spit V engagements that I was involved in?
eskimo
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Cause I was listening to the guys on the country channel squeaking about you. Surprised?
I prefer to strive for universal popularity, than killing people as they take off. If I have been in a great dog fight, and the other guy is too crippled to fight, I let them go. Why? Cause I am selfish and it makes me feel good. When I see guys upping and I am not trying to take the base, I let them up. Why? Same reason. Why do I care how you spend your time online? Cause its cheesy (sometimes). If you have a problem with my complaining about your behavior, change it. I dont care if you think I am whining.
edit: oh yeah the 2 hours a day came from you 50hrs online in 29 days for tour 5.
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Originally posted by ergRTC
If you have a problem with my complaining about your behavior, change it
WOW! That says it all!
Perhaps you should fly Axis more often.
You could be Hitler, you've got his tude down pat!
eskimo
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so lets say your next door neighbor has a real love for old school buses full of chickens.... If you complain about his school bus full of chickens you are hitler?
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Originally posted by ergRTC
so lets say your next door neighbor has a real love for old school buses full of chickens.... If you complain about his school bus full of chickens you are hitler?
How does this (above) relate to dictating how others should play?
Are you trying to say that if it's OK to complain in one situation, that it must be alright to complain in all situations? Is that how you think? Is that your point? Are you six?
:)
eskimo
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YES FINNALLY! Eskimo, and Erg, have earned the Itchey, and Scratchey Debate Medal.
Enjoy Fellas!
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hehe thanks lowe!
Hey eskimo, I cant believe you brought up hitler. It didnt occur to me back at the lab, but as soon as I got home I remembered the cardinal rule. As soon as a nazi or the nazi's are mentioned in reference to another person in an online forum it is dead. Forum closed. (check the appendix of the darwin awards).
in response to your last post, I dont see any difference between wanting an old school bus full of chickens in your backyard, and enjoying vulching.
And hey, in the end, I am not the guy trying to justify vulching. Remember that I belong to a squad (pretty much the only reason I play) that tries to remain historically accurate. Pilots were relatively civil to one another during the war until terrible things started happening. An example of which is a german pilot that enjoyed shooting chutes. I take this attitude along with me into the game. I do not 'hate' the nme pilots (well maybe a couple but you cant tell who they are) so I do not do things like shoot chutes, vulch fields for no strategic reason, bad mouth people on channel 1, whine in game (I save it for here), and so on.
I think the other problem is that there is a group of people that really just vulch cause they got/get beat up in high school. Its not my fault they havent graduated from police academy yet, so I dont want to have to deal with their childish behavior in here. I believe the CT is around for other reasons than vulching and trying to pad scores. If you like doing that you have the ma. If you get sick of it, come back to the CT. If the urge strikes you to vulch again, go back to the ma, very simple really.
p.s. this is all really in good humor if you hadnt noticed yet. I enjoy argueing, particularly about issues of personal taste.
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I love to vlch if the oppertunity arrises:) Dont get me wrong, I enjoy an enemy that knows how to employ good ACM tactics just as much;)
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Originally posted by ergRTC
p.s. this is all really in good humor if you hadnt noticed yet. I enjoy argueing, particularly about issues of personal taste.
I like a good argument like I enjoy a good dogfight as well.
Too bad this one is more like I'm on a vulch!
:)
ergRTC,
You, like Hitler, are trying to be a dictator. You have your own set of rules on how you think the game should be played, and when players don't you whine. That makes you a dictator-wanta-be. The analogy to Hitler is appropriate.
Vulching does not need to be justified to the majority of players. Its built into the game. That's why field guns can be destroyed in the first place. The vast majority of players do it when the opportunity arises. It also is a very effective base capture strategy. A vulch draws friendly players in, who hold the airspace, crush the town, and capture the base. It also can be a blast.
If you don't like that this game is a war game and simulates killing people, perhaps its too much for you. You also need to read a bit more about WWII aviation history. Lose your G-rated history books and search for facts. Pilots had brutal jobs in the war. Lots of aircraft and pilots were killed on the ground. Thousands of troops were bombed and strafed.
I know a P-51 attack pilot once who told me that after he was shot down, the Germans told him that he had killed over 650 troops. They kept very good records on exactly which planes participated on attacks and they were able to tell him what targets he had hit on particular days, and how many people he had killed on particular missions. He had strafed troop convoys and apparently had killed a lot of guys. He didn't wasn't treated well as a POW.
You think pilots were relatively civil to one another during the war? Some were. And many, from all countries, were brutal.
If it bothers you that other players shoot chutes and vulch, then I think that you are taking this game way too seriously. It's not real life, its just a computer game. Lighten up.
If you think that you are somehow more chivalrous, noble or of a gentleman than myself and others who vulch or kill chutes, well then good for you. Maybe you should go Knight yourself.
I have found, that the only thing that really matters (respect-wise) is how you conduct yourself when you kill and/or die. Take it well, and (most) people respect you. Whine, squeak, make insults or make excuses, and most people could care less to be around you.
eskimo
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eskimo we have met each other many times in the air, you know how I behave.
As far as knighting, the queen still wont grant me an appointment.
I think your arguement would be valid if I were a whiner, and cryed like a baby when you vulched me, but you didnt vulch me, and if you did I wouldnt cry. I am complaining about your vulching from the perspective of someone on the outside.
I prefer to follow a higher ideal in this game. I know others dont have to, but I really do respect those that do. I always find it astonishing when I meet perfectly good pilots, and nice people at that, behaving like an arse in a particular situation. Its just this one thing. Maybe I am english at heart rather than german, danish and russyn.
In the end I play this game because I get to play against other people. If those other planes were ai I would treat them with no respect. As they are not, I do.
erg
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Sorry to interrupt this slugfest, but back to the original topic...
I have not spent any time in the CT yet, but took a look at the setup. It looks like a good idea, and would probably work if there were sufficient numbers. At the very least, it is a great attempt at trying something new.
I think that I will withhold my criticism until I have made an earnest attempt at making this setup work. Obviously someone has spent a lot of time thinking this one through and setting it up. It is possible there are problems with the setup, but it could be that it was intended to provide a greater challenge for some of the more experienced pilots. Less experienced pilots like myself may struggle and find it a little too difficult, but that does not mean that it is a bad map.
Even the best map in the world would still not be universally liked by everyone, and would be subject to complaints and improvement requests. I am sure that the creator would like to hear ideas for improvement, but how about some things that we like about this map. Without any experience yet, it sounds like the distance between airfields is further than normal, or the fact that you have to fly a sector or more to bring an airplane from a different base into play makes it seem that way. Either way, I think this is an improvement since the short distances, and high concentrations of airplanes seen in the MA are not historically very accurate. A little more distance might give a better sense of what air combat was truly like. I.e.: Harder to run for AA cover of an airbase, or for the help of other friendly aircraft. Also, it will take a greater degree of organization or much greater numbers to defeat a neighboring superior air base.
These are my initial comments, thanks for giving us something new. And now, back to our regularly scheduled heavy weight email fight...
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ignore us tracer we are just being silly.
Actually I think the map is pretty good all in all, just that when you take an enemy base you get hurri 1s? Am I right here? I thought it was going to be good planes. We have not had a whole lot of luck taking bases yet, so that may be the problem.
I thought it was, for example, if you take a base that has 262s, you would get tempests from that base. I guess it is actually meant to make it harder and harder to take a base as you get into enemy territory. Getting hurris (if I am right, which is likely not the case) is no big carrot. I do like have to go to rear lines to pull in the big birds.
I think this is particularly appropriate for the heavy bombers. Also, I had no problems flying in a p51b or p47 and getting into the 'fightn' area within a reasonable time, but it does make you want to survive and not take stupid chances (something else I agree with).
Tracer we are going to be up in numbers around 9:30 10:00 you should pop in then.
erg
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tracerx, you ideas are valid and appreciated. I think that your POV of less experienced players is one that I hadn't considered, and might make it a bit tough for many folks. I know that I have a really hard time in a plane like the 110C, and am probably over my head when going up against anything other than a Hurri 1. Players who have not had a chance to become familiar with many planes may find themselves frustrated very often.
I figured that everyone would be forced to try new planes, and so the playing-ground overall would be even. If this set-up puts newer players at an even greater disadvantage, however, than that is a big problem.
Originally posted by ergRTC
Actually I think the map is pretty good all in all, just that when you take an enemy base you get hurri 1s? Am I right here? I thought it was going to be good planes. We have not had a whole lot of luck taking bases yet, so that may be the problem.
I thought it was, for example, if you take a base that has 262s, you would get tempests from that base. I guess it is actually meant to make it harder and harder to take a base as you get into enemy territory. Getting hurris (if I am right, which is likely not the case) is no big carrot. I do like have to go to rear lines to pull in the big birds.
erg
You get a different plane at each base.
From the thread: "Next Setup: Close encounters of the Third Reich" posted by Jarbo.
"6. No battle for a base will be the same! Since a different aircraft will become available when a base gets captured, the dynamics of the fight will change dramatically.
* For example, if the Allies wish to attack A-39 from A-41, they will only be able to do so with Spit-IXs, and they will be going up against FW-190F-8s. If they are successful in capturing A-39, they will find the P-51B as the only fighter available. Pushing the fight to A-45, however, will pit them against ME-262s! So, with the capture of only one base, the fight can change from {Spit Vs 190} to {P-51 Vs 262}. "
The problem this week has been that there were so few bases captured that we got to see very little new front line planes.
eskimo
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Originally posted by eskimo2
I figured that everyone would be forced to try new planes
I was out of town for most of the weekend and week, so I only got to fly this setup once. I very much enjoyed having to fly different planes (took away the guilt of being a spitdweeb), and I liked having only one a/c type per base. I'm not sure how the map could be changed to avoid the 110C vs. Spit14 situation that I found myself in (and not in the spit, that time), but it did make for a (briefly) interesting fight.
I think this week demonstrated one of the nice things about the CT. There are presently few enough people who fly it regularly that experimentation is possible without creating a huge whining ruckus. I might not pick this setup a second time, but I'm glad to have had the first.
- oldman