Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Wlfgng on June 26, 2002, 03:40:52 PM
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what a bunch of crap!
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I would love to have it back in schools, as soon they remove the "Under God" that was NOT part of the original pledge to begin with.
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When the majority of this country comes out and decides they are not under God, you will see the country fall. Some of you are young enough to live to see it. As for me I will remain "under God".
Regards
Chris:)
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Heheh,
I like WW's sig, "I don't care what your religion is as long as long as your ashamed of it."
A pledge doesn't prove your love of freedom, imo.
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Originally posted by Chris
When the majority of this country comes out and decides they are not under God, you will see the country fall. Some of you are young enough to live to see it. As for me I will remain "under God".
That is fine, but by making me proclaim allegiance in "one nation under God" you turn that solemn ceremony of affirming my patriotism into a LIE.
Why do I have to chose to either conspiciously NOT affirm my patriotism or to LIE?
miko
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point of order: the last time i gave a oath (2 mo ago ) i was asked , and i quote. "do you swear or affirm your testimony is the truth to the best of your knowledge"
no bible , no "god"
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Most of the people on the 9th circuit court were appointed by Carter, and clinton. They are notorious for idiotic rulings. In this case I am glad they did it. The Supreme court will overrule them. And the matter will be settled once and for all.
The founders, for the most part, were religious people. Get used to it.
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Complex subject.
Mikos' point well taken.
What about God is unconstitutional anyway?
Is the Declaration of Independance unconstitutional as well??
What happens if some appeals court rules the constitution unconstitutional???
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Yes Easymo, the founders were religious.
But this country was founded for freedoms, not in the name of "God".... founded BY Christians/Catholics is different than founded ON Catholicism.
Yeager, I'm not saying this particular issue is unconstitutional... but it does infringe on the "Freedom of religion" dealy and "seperation of church and state"...
-SW
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My only complaint about the word God, is that it drives us into a monotheistic corner. The word God literally means something different to each individual. The founders definitely had varying views on which God. I wish they had used the Roman example, as they did on so many other matters, and written the word Gods.
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When you outlaw the pledge of allegance, only outlaws will pledge allegance.
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why don't we change it to "one nation , without god"??
would that make you happy?
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...some would argue we've already become a Godless nation...
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...some would argue we've already become a Godless nation...
if this board is any indication, I don't think there is an argument
:(
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*sneef*
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Originally posted by Eagler
...some would argue we've already become a Godless nation...
if this board is any indication, I don't think there is an argument
:(
OK, I am godless and openly admit it, but I consider myself a decent human being nevertheless. Why do you have to drive me into being a non-patriot or a lier?
It is you right to believe that trust in God is beneficial but according to the Constitution you cannot force you beliefs on my children without my consent.
miko
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Stop it miko, you are just making the US slide into perdition that much quicker. Do you want your nation to be bathed in hell fire??:eek:
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Actualy Thrawn the odds are good the Bible is right. The earth will be destroyed by fire... ethier A) comet or some such from space that we just dont notice till to late. B) Nukes C) The Sun... tremendous solor flare could cook us.... we wouldnt even know it was gonna happen till to late...or perhaps it goes to a red gaint and envelopes us...
xBAT
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I don't believe in Jebus, ain't god-fearing, but I do have pride in the principles this country was founded on, and I did say the pledge of allegence every day that I was in school. I also agree that kids shouldn't HAVE TO say it if they don't want to...what's the difference if they do or not.
I'm not sure why everyone is so scared about others not being religeous. I don't need an imaginary friend to tell me not to diddly over my neighbor, my parents instilled values in me.
SOB
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Yeager, I'm not saying this particular issue is unconstitutional... but it does infringe on the "Freedom of religion" dealy and "seperation of church and state"...
No it doesn't. God does not equate to "religion" or "church". If it said "one nation under Christianity", or "one nation under Judaism", then it would be a violation of the separation of church and state, which is obvisously why it never said that to begin with.
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It is you right to believe that trust in God is beneficial but according to the Constitution you cannot force you beliefs on my children without my consent.
Then you should be arguing against a recitation of the Pledge of Allegiance, with our without the reference to God in it. Or is it okay to be "forced" to recite a pledge of patriotism?
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Originally posted by koala
No it doesn't. God does not equate to "religion" or "church". If it said "one nation under Christianity", or "one nation under Judaism", then it would be a violation of the separation of church and state, which is obvisously why it never said that to begin with.
It implies monotheism. What if you are a pantheist such as a Hindo or follow Norse theology. The you might want to say, "One nation und Gods", right. Or if you an athiest you might not want to say God at all. What about if you follow the Earth Goddess figure, what should you say then?
I imagine it might be best to leave the spiritual out of it all together.
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How many of you Christians here would want your son or daughter to say "One nation under Buddha" every day?
Obviously none of you. It is your job as a parent to instill a sense of religion into your child, not the governments. If I was athiest (which I am not) I would not want my child to be forced to say this every day.
I agree, 110%, with this ruling. :eek:
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It implies monotheism.
Is monotheism a church?
Is monotheism a religion?
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Originally posted by koala
Is monotheism a church?
Is monotheism a religion?
It implies government support of a type of religion or belief system.
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It means a belief in one God.
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It implies government support of a type of religion or belief system.
Monotheism is not a "type of religion". The issue is whether the pledge of allegiece violates the principle of separation of church and state. Not whether it violates a "belief system". By definition the constitution is a "belief system".
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Fine, It implies government support of a specific religious doctrine.
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Uh. three issues:
1. "Under God" was not part of the original pledge of allegiance. It was added during the Cold War.
The other change to the pledge of allegiance happened in the early forties. The original pledge of allegiance was done with outstretched right hands -- non e of this hand-over-heart stuff.
2. Is the United States "Under God"? Do we obey God? Do we all recognize God? Can we actually confess that our state is obedient to God? which one? whose religion determines that? I'm sorry, a facile "it's the same God...." won't cut it. Why the hell do you think we have so many different denominations in this country? It's in part a dispute over the nature of God. Now, we're supposed to confess that we believe and follow a God when our legislators and president don't go to the same church, and have very different notions of what God is.
3. I'm sorry. No pledge of allegiance that's forced upon schoolchildren, including foreign nationals, is worth a damn. Now add that it's allegiance to a flag and not a country, and it's even worse.
Frankly, I consider the conduct of the senate shameful. 99 people and not one with a pair of spiritual testicles to stand up for what's right? Now that's the kind of stuff that makes me worried about my country.
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Originally posted by Dinger
3. I'm sorry. No pledge of allegiance that's forced upon schoolchildren, including foreign nationals, is worth a damn. Now add that it's allegiance to a flag and not a country, and it's even worse.
Ummm... Didn't the Supreme Court already rule that schools cannot force students to recite the pledge of allegiance?
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Originally posted by john9001
why don't we change it to "one nation , without god"??
would that make you happy?
How about simply "one nation?"
Would that make you happy?
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"Ummm... Didn't the Supreme Court already rule that schools cannot force students to recite the pledge of allegiance?"
This nitwit was unhappy because his child had to watch as others recited it.
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The Delcaration of Independance likely will not be ruled unconstitutinal because it is an historical document. Children do not attend school of a morning and recite religous excerpts from the Declaration.
Here, we have children reciting the pledge of allegiance. In this pledge, the phrase "under god" appears. A phrase that was not originally included in the pledge, but was added in 1953.
Our currency has "In God We Trust" on it. Our Congress prays before each session. Our Supreme Court has scripture along the top of the walls. These are all viewed in a different light because the delicate and influential minds of children are not at stake. If we required our children, upon entered elementary school, to hold up a dollar or coin, and all recite "In God We Trust" - clearly there would be a problem.
I am not a religious person. And quite frankly, I think this is a bad decision. It goes just a little too far. However, Courts are starting to really crack down on historically religous events. Christmas is an excellent example. Nativity scenes, standing alone, have been found unconstitutional, by the Supreme Court. Christmas Music Programs with strictly Christian songs have been ruled unconstitutional by the Supreme Court. School prayer has been ruled uconstitutional. Prayer at graduation ceremonies ... the list is endless for religious events that have been ruled unconstitutional when they involve and incorporate the youth.
And yes this country was founded by religious people, but they were not christians ... nor were they catholics. [Referring to the signers of the Declaration of Indepence].
Anyway, just a quick history of religion and what has and has not been permitted by the courts.
Nim
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Have the idiot judges shot at once! :D
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If there is a difference between fanatical atheists, and religious fanatics. I fail to see it.
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Originally posted by easymo
"Ummm... Didn't the Supreme Court already rule that schools cannot force students to recite the pledge of allegiance?"
This nitwit was unhappy because his child had to watch as others recited it.
Been reading the 9th Court opinion... it says:
We recognize that the Supreme Court has occasionally commented in dicta that the presence of “one nation under God” in the Pledge of Allegiance is constitutional. See Allegheny, 492 U.S. at 602-03; Lynch, 465 U.S. at 676; id. at 693 (O’Connor, J., concurring); Abington Sch. Dist. v. Schempp, 374 U.S. 203, 303-04 (1963) (Brennan, J., concurring); id. at 306-08 (Goldberg, J., joined by Harlan, J., concurring); Engel, 370 U.S. at 435 n. 21. However, the Court has never been presented with the question directly, and has always clearly refrained from deciding it. Accordingly, it has never applied any of the three tests to the Act or to any school policy regarding the recitation of the Pledge. That task falls to us, although the final word, as always, remains with the Supreme Court.
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Loyalist hit the nail on the head.
Everytime some Christian starts raising cane about prayer in school around my house, and brings up the pledge I clearly point out that I and my child will not be raised to be forced to sit thru THEIR beliefs. Oh but that's not what we're doing, God can mean whatever..yea freaking right....bullchit.
I say the same thing. If I wanted you to recite something with Gods, Goddess, Allah, Jehovah, Brigid, Osiris, Hecate, No god, etc, you that support the "under God" bit would have a holy fit because it wasn't "christian". You can't have it both ways.
I could care less if you worshipped Grapefruits. That doesn't mean everyone should or does think Grapefruits are divine.
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America isn't one nation under God anyways. There are thousands and thousands of athiests.
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don't forget us agnostics! I want the Pledge to end this way to suit MY beliefs.
"one nation, MAYBE under some sort of divine influence and intervention, with liberty and justice for all."
as you see, under God definitely doesn't cut it for my beliefs.