Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Mitsu on June 28, 2002, 09:26:19 PM
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What about this ship for the first Aces High Battle Ship...LOL. :D
Eat the 18inch Guns!
http://www.vlewis.net/page8a.html
(http://www.vlewis.net/myimages9/Yamato-8.jpg)
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1944 version of the Yamato would be awesome. Nine 18.1 inch guns, six 6.1 in guns, twelve 5 inch dual purpose guns (anti-aircraft, anti ship) and one hundred and fifty (150) 25mm AA guns.
Now THAT would be some AA fire!!!:D
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Originally posted by Karnak
and one hundred and fifty (150) 25mm AA guns.
:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:
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The 6.1s where removed in 43...24X5 inch..in 44
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Pongo,
You are partially correct and I was partially correct. The Yamato originally had twelve 6.1 inch guns, the two middle turrets (which only had 180 degrees of fire anyways) were removed and replaced with more AA guns, including twelve more 5 inch dual purpose guns.
This would be correct:
1944 version of the Yamato would be awesome. Nine 18.1 inch guns, six 6.1 in guns, twenty four 5 inch dual purpose guns (anti-aircraft, anti ship) and one hundred and fifty (150) 25mm AA guns.
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The Bigest and Badest BB ever, I would love to see it, be nice to have a float plane or two in the game to launch off our CA, and the Yamato:)
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Only 1 was built... :D :D
Mitsu what are you doing? Mitsuuuu?! Noooooooo!!! :p
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Two were built. Yamato and Musashi.
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Bring the Ki-44-IIb Shoki, Ki-84-Ia Hayate, B6N2 Tenzan and H8K2 "Emily" to Aces High.!!!
Bring a 1944 Yamato Class BB led BB Task Force suported by a Takao Class CA and four Fubuki Class DDs to Aces High!!!
Looks Great:) but you forgot the Grace:)
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Hiya, where's your Grace? brady. ;)
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LOL...nevermind.
brady, I haven't seen you for a long time on the AH BB...WB. :)
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Originally posted by MadBirdCZ
Only 1 was built... :D :D
Mitsu what are you doing? Mitsuuuu?! Noooooooo!!! :p
Eat my 18-inch guns! :p
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actually 3 were built, but the last one, Shinano, was hastily converted into a super-carrier and it was sunk by a sub b4 it became operational.
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i would like to see a Yamato vs. Bismark fight
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Well, the Japanese built the ultimately large battleships. However, the Americans were the ones with the second largest.
Germany's Bismarck and Tirpitz were excellent ships as well, and so was the British King-George class.
In an engagement betwen giants of these types the sheer size does not say all, for the first salvo to score a hit is often crucial.
The Bismarck had about the equal firepower with its 15 inch guns as HMS Hood, but Hood receving a direct hit into its magazines went up in one BOOM. However, HMS Nelson(or was it Rodney?) was the first one to score against Bismarck, knocking out its fire control with a single 16 inch shell, - Bismarck failing to score any hits after that.
If we were to get some of these giants into AH one day, I guess the damage model would have to be reviewed;)
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If we get bismark, we need fairey SwordFish to torpedo it :D
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Originally posted by Angus
Well, the Japanese built the ultimately large battleships. However, the Americans were the ones with the second largest.
Germany's Bismarck and Tirpitz were excellent ships as well, and so was the British King-George class.
In an engagement betwen giants of these types the sheer size does not say all, for the first salvo to score a hit is often crucial.
The Bismarck had about the equal firepower with its 15 inch guns as HMS Hood, but Hood receving a direct hit into its magazines went up in one BOOM. However, HMS Nelson(or was it Rodney?) was the first one to score against Bismarck, knocking out its fire control with a single 16 inch shell, - Bismarck failing to score any hits after that.
If we were to get some of these giants into AH one day, I guess the damage model would have to be reviewed;)
Lets not forget the Prinz Eugen was the one that started the fires on the Hood first. Eugen landing several 8 inch shells. The hood was lightly armored and even the 8 inch shells were doing damage to the Hood. Eugen also was taking the brunt of the direct fire in the beginning of the engagement as the british thought it was a battleship!! Bismarck in the final engagement was against overwhelming odds. She was a tank of a ship
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How bout the U.S. battleship Missouri BB63
The ship the Japanese signed the surrender agrrement on
Musashi and Ymamato 18" shells hittin a field oh my :p
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Iowa class BB would most likely defeat Yamato in a 1v1. The 18.1 inchers werent that much more powerful in armor penetration than the US 16 inchers plus the Iowas had a far superior radar fire control system. The Iowas were faster and more manuverable. They could change course and range, rapidly reacquire target, and fire accurately much more effectivley than Yamato.
However the Yamato is a much cooler ship than the Iowa class, so I'd rather see it in AH.
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Originally posted by whgates3
i would like to see a Yamato vs. Bismark fight
The Bismark would not have any opportunity against Yamato.
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Wonder what kind of fire control the Yamato had.
I know that the Germans had a good system aided by radar, somewhat better than the British had, however the Brits trained extensively at sea, and managed to keep an excellent record at hitting things far out.
The Bismarck did not have so bad odds when it faced Rodney/Nelson. While the Bismarck was damaged and thereby not able to maneuver, the british ship was a lot slower. They approached roughly head on, both firing, and this time the Brits were the ones to score the first hit. The British ship was a lot smaller and not so well armoured, however armed with 9 16 inch gun all on the foredeck, so posing quite a threat. The Germans therefore directed their fire onto it, trying to knock it out as soon as possible.
The Bismarck was tough, - it was estimated that it took more than 700 hits of various calibers:eek:
Another engagement was HMS Belfast vs Scharnhorst (or was it Gneisenau). While Belfast was only a cruiser armed with 6 inch guns, the Brits were the first to score hits and totally fix their aim on their target while the Germans did not. The battleship had to evade against the enemy who was only about 1/4th of their size!!
The world record against a moving target was scored by the HMS Warspite at cape Matapan in an engagement against the Italian navy. The WWI veteran managed to slam one of its 15 inch shells into one of the italian ships at the stunning range of 26 km!!!!
I wonder if the 18 inch guns were any better. The Americans were happy about their 16 inch guns, the British and Germans mostly kept to the 15 inch guns, and the King George class only had 13 inch guns, - Scharnhorst/Gneisenau 11 inch guns, as well as the three "pocket" battleships of the Krigsmarine.
The smaller calibre meant lighter projectiles of course, but a greater rate of fire. The 11 inch guns were quite fast!
And in an engagement of battleships, the one who manages to get a fix on his target sooner is most usually the winner.
In a slugout between Yamato/Bismarck/King George/Iowa I would not necessarily put my money on the Yamato. Depends on aim, luck and tactics. But shelling a field in AH, I'd sure wanna have it:D
Come to think of it, - AH could do with a little more navy stuff. Would be heaps of fun!
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Karnak..
I stand corrected..only the broadside 6" guns were removed..
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Angus.
In the case of the Brits and Germans the guns used where for economic reasons. The warspite used guns they had handy..
The Japanese designed Yamamoto in total disregard of treaty while others tried to at least keep a pretence of keeping within the limits. Had the waring nations wanted and valued a line of battle the ships would have been yamoto sized and packing 18-20 inch guns. But such ships were of course dinosaurs by the mid war.
Anyone remember Action Stations!. I think I still have that arround somewhere...
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Ok im not gonna play who would win what..but i would love to be able to Take my "Musashi " out and go on patrol.....I dont think i would beach it like the japanese did..lolo
It would be sweet to use ur GV perk points for buying your own Musashi....sweettt
100 points or so to take ur ship out on soem attaks...control it just like cv...u could fly around..and when u get close...MAN your ......150...anti aircraft guns!!!! sweeeeeeetttttt
Love, BiGB
xoxo
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The Americans had alot of different caliber main guns (http://www.warships1.com/Weapons/WNUS_main.htm)... but the 16in is surely the most known of them. they did tried to make bigger (click on "guns" and select the 18inches)
A few quotes to note :
The prototype for this weapon was about halfway completed when the Washington Naval Limitation Treaty of 1922 outlawed guns larger than 16" (40.6 cm). As a result of that treaty, it was decided to complete the prototype as an extra-long 16" (40.6 cm) weapon.
Tests with this weapon in the 1920s and 1930s convinced BuOrd that the 18" (45.7 cm) shells of the time had only marginally better armor penetration than 16" (40.6 cm) shells.
as the 18" (45.7 cm) gun was a much heavier weapon, the studies showed that the same size battleship could carry a maximum of six or seven 18" (45.7 cm) guns vs. nine 16" (40.6 cm) guns, even if the armor protection remained the same.
I wonder if a BB holding 12 main guns would have been possible... but we'll never know, since cruisers equipped with Tomahawks and other missiles can surely do more damage in less time ;)
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The Montana class BB was planned in 1940-41 with 12 16 inch guns in four turrets, two forward and two aft. It was basically an enlarged Iowa class. It was never built with the whole project and inital construction of BB-67 Montana being canceled in mid 1943.
They were 925 feet long and would have weighed some 60,000-70,000 tons.
Here's a good link:
http://www.navsource.org/archives/01/67.htm
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Originally posted by DarkglamJG52
The Bismark would not have any opportunity against Yamato.
actually i thought the Bismark's superior fire control radar might give it an edge. i figured thats why it was able to dispatch The Hood so easily
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The Hood was a battlecruiser with some very, very poor design decisions by the RN. Yamato is a full fledged battleship with massive amounts of armor.
Another thing to note is that a ship's ability to take punishment is greatly affected by its size and the 70,000 ton Yamato will take far, far more than the 45,000 ton Bismark.
I think the late war Yamato had radar fire control, but I'm not sure of that.
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It had radar IIRC but Japanese radar was exceptionally poor.
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Nihon Kaigun
http://www.combinedfleet.com/kaigun.htm
I'd love to see some destroyers... get a squadron of them to launch a spread of long lances from long range, cross fingers, then watch the fireworks.
I used to love watching "Battlecruiser Yamato" anime on TV when I was a lot younger. But yeah, the Yamato/Musashi would be something out of the ordinary for AH. A Japanese TG like in Karnak's sig would be nice. Imagine working on the sound packs for the big guns :)
mauser
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Sheer size may enable the ship to take more punishment, but it also has a downside. The ship is a bigger target.
HMS Hood directed its first salvos towards Prinz Eugen, not scoring any hits. (Eugen being only half the size of the Bismarck on the sea, although not much shorter)
Bismarck was actually not that big a target, HMS Hood being a lot bigger. And, BTW, Hood was mainly a WWI design, and was already obsolete when it met its better.
Now, Yamato is one HUGE target with about twice as much space to hit as the Bismarck. I would still think it was a matter of luck which one of those would win a slugout, - at far range they would only be using their main guns. Bismarck would be able to put just as many shells into the air due to the higher rate of fire of the 15 inch guns. Yamato is twice as big a target, and Bismarck has a better fire control, so I would put my money on Bismarck scoring the first hits:D
BTW, there used to be an excellent DOS battleship game, "Great Naval Battles of the North Atlantic". I wonder if anyone knows if it can be downloaded anywhere, or something similar?
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Originally posted by Angus
Sheer size may enable the ship to take more punishment, but it also has a downside. The ship is a bigger target.
HMS Hood directed its first salvos towards Prinz Eugen, not scoring any hits. (Eugen being only half the size of the Bismarck on the sea, although not much shorter)
Bismarck was actually not that big a target, HMS Hood being a lot bigger. And, BTW, Hood was mainly a WWI design, and was already obsolete when it met its better.
Now, Yamato is one HUGE target with about twice as much space to hit as the Bismarck. I would still think it was a matter of luck which one of those would win a slugout, - at far range they would only be using their main guns. Bismarck would be able to put just as many shells into the air due to the higher rate of fire of the 15 inch guns. Yamato is twice as big a target, and Bismarck has a better fire control, so I would put my money on Bismarck scoring the first hits:D
BTW, there used to be an excellent DOS battleship game, "Great Naval Battles of the North Atlantic". I wonder if anyone knows if it can be downloaded anywhere, or something similar?
Yes i know, try this one Home of the Underdogs (http://www.the-underdogs.org/) , just search "Great Naval Battles" and ull find it...
homapage: The Great Naval Battles Of North Atlantic (GNBNA) Homesite (http://www.gnbna.8m.com/index.htm)
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(http://cube.blinx.de/~klarschiff/images/3bismarck.jpg)
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I just read an Interview with HT.
Punt. :D
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Ya the Yamato:)
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:eek: :eek: :eek:
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Is she shooting PTs? :D
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yamato was a big one,,,too bad it never seen any action,,besides being bombed to death,,what a waist,,lol,,and i have tried yamato vs bismark in that game called fighting steel,,,good battle,,,,but,,,tirpitz would be better than the bismark,,,,tirpitz is bismarks sister ship,,,but one diffrent,,about 40more aa guns,,,and about 5,000 tons heavier,,,gremans did have a hall built for there super battle ship,,never complated,,but it was 140foot wide,,lol,,,and was going to be about 75,000 tons,,,and was suposta have 12,,16 inch guns,,4 turrets,,with 3 guns in each,,i read that ona secret wepons of the german book my cousin has,,good book,,,i need to get it,,and i beleve,,russians had the biggest guns on any ship every,,they had a ship was build in ww1,,,pretty much a joke because so big and slow,,it wouldnt make it anywere,,,but it was 21 inch guns,,crazy aint it?,,,i dout it shot very far ethere,,it was just abig ww1 dreadnot with biggest guns it could have,,,lol,,,just a scare tactic,,lol,,it really didnt see any servis ethere i beleve
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Originally posted by hyena426
yamato was a big one,,,too bad it never seen any action,,besides being bombed to death,,what a waist,,lol,,and i have tried yamato vs bismark in that game called fighting steel,,,good battle,,,,but,,,tirpitz would be better than the bismark,,,,tirpitz is bismarks sister ship,,,but one diffrent,,about 40more aa guns,,,and about 5,000 tons heavier,,,gremans did have a hall built for there super battle ship,,never complated,,but it was 140foot wide,,lol,,,and was going to be about 75,000 tons,,,and was suposta have 12,,16 inch guns,,4 turrets,,with 3 guns in each,,i read that ona secret wepons of the german book my cousin has,,good book,,,i need to get it,,and i beleve,,russians had the biggest guns on any ship every,,they had a ship was build in ww1,,,pretty much a joke because so big and slow,,it wouldnt make it anywere,,,but it was 21 inch guns,,crazy aint it?,,,i dout it shot very far ethere,,it was just abig ww1 dreadnot with biggest guns it could have,,,lol,,,just a scare tactic,,lol,,it really didnt see any servis ethere i beleve
Dude my brain hurts please stop. Going back to school to learn english again. :eek:
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you are all forgetting the HMS Hood was a World War ONE BS, there was only 2 or 3 surviours of the hood, one less now, he died a couple of years ago
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Actually the Yamato went on to save the world from evil aliens.
http://members.aol.com/neghvar2/starblazers.mid
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aint the best typer,,,and somtimes hit the wrong one:P,,,,,but dont make fun of me sach,,that aint cool at all,,says your a senior member,,,well,act like one instead of a little kid,,,,,if your brain hurts,,,should look into getting a new one,,hehaheha,,and if you got a problem with my typing,,too bad:P
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starblazers,,,use to have to wake up at 5 in the morning to catch that show as a kid,,,lol,,,,yup hms hood got blasted bad,,,big time ammo hit,,,only reason bismark got sunk,,one lucky rudder shot by them old bi planes,,,lol,,and a good ship to ship game is,,fighting steel,,,its 3d accelerated,,and has lots of ships,,,plays modem to modem,,or lan and ip,,,,,fun game,,can have 2 on 2 ,,british,,,greman,,,usa,,,and japan ,,,and they got most of there ships from 1910 up till 1944
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Originally posted by hyena426
aint the best typer,,,and somtimes hit the wrong one:P,,,,,but dont make fun of me sach,,that aint cool at all,,says your a senior member,,,well,act like one instead of a little kid,,,,,if your brain hurts,,,should look into getting a new one,,hehaheha,,and if you got a problem with my typing,,too bad:P
Lighten up Francis!
I will continue to make fun if you cannot take it then you need to move to the Oclub. It was meant as a joke and in jest. You obviously have not been here for awhile as there are some in here with horrible typing skils and we still accept them.
lighten up Francis
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Yeah bring it to AH. It should have the armor features of the Panzer. IE you could take it out with a 50 cal. :eek: :eek: :p :p :D
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hey,,like i said,,you can make fun of it all you want,,,,it wont matter too me at all,,lol<~~~~doesnt need to make cheap remarks about anyone,,,,,lol,,,,,just because i type bad,,,which i bet i type just as fast,,or faster than you,,sence you seem to be the 2 or 3 sentence wonder,,,,calling me names and telling me to back to school,,,,that aint a joke,,,,,it aint cool at all,,if you dont got anything good to say,,dont say it at all,,lol,,you 3 years old?,,im starting to wonder sence you keep saying you will continue make fun of it,,,,go ahead,,,make fun all you want,,,,<~~talks with his guns,,not his mouth,,,this thread is about planes and ships and tanks,,,,,,dont sit on here and make fun of people when there tring to talk about things that matter to this thread,,,and you should lighten up francis,,,im not the one that started with the crude remarks
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i think they need to put real battle ship gun sites on there ships,,,if there going to go so far as putting in more battle wagons in,,,,i dout they will,,they got there arms full with planes at the moment,,,,,,unless there planning to do a ww2 online thing,,and have subs and everything,,,i wasnt happy with ww2 online server,,,good grafic game and i heard they fixed a few things,,but aces high server blows them away at the moment
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Yo Hyena, you surfing the web with a PDA or your cell phone or something? Just wondering because your text formatting is strange.
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Originally posted by hyena426
hey,,like i said,,you can make fun of it all you want,,,,it wont matter too me at all,,lol<~~~~doesnt need to make cheap remarks about anyone,,,,,lol,,,,,just because i type bad,,,which i bet i type just as fast,,or faster than you,,sence you seem to be the 2 or 3 sentence wonder,,,,calling me names and telling me to back to school,,,,that aint a joke,,,,,it aint cool at all,,if you dont got anything good to say,,dont say it at all,,lol,,you 3 years old?,,im starting to wonder sence you keep saying you will continue make fun of it,,,,go ahead,,,make fun all you want,,,,<~~talks with his guns,,not his mouth,,,this thread is about planes and ships and tanks,,,,,,dont sit on here and make fun of people when there tring to talk about things that matter to this thread,,,and you should lighten up francis,,,im not the one that started with the crude remarks
You forgot cartoon space ships :p
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yes i did ben,,im sorry!!,,hehaheha
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Originally posted by hyena426
hey,,like i said,,you can make fun of it all you want,,,,it wont matter too me at all,,lol<~~~~doesnt need to make cheap remarks about anyone,,,,,lol,,,,,just because i type bad,,,which i bet i type just as fast,,or faster than you,,sence you seem to be the 2 or 3 sentence wonder,,,,calling me names and telling me to back to school,,,,that aint a joke,,,,,it aint cool at all,,if you dont got anything good to say,,dont say it at all,,lol,,you 3 years old?,,im starting to wonder sence you keep saying you will continue make fun of it,,,,go ahead,,,make fun all you want,,,,<~~talks with his guns,,not his mouth,,,this thread is about planes and ships and tanks,,,,,,dont sit on here and make fun of people when there tring to talk about things that matter to this thread,,,and you should lighten up francis,,,im not the one that started with the crude remarks
Actually it wasn't that crude of a comment. And if you cannot take it that is fine. I have been around along time here, and can post whatever and whenever i feel. It is our right to do so. I did post earlier in this thread about the topic and ran across yours and made a quick comment. And if you read my post correctly I did not say for you to go back to school. I said I was to going re-learn the English language.
I am thinking your skin is rather thin. It was a joke and that was all so deal with it. :rolleyes:
And who are you to tell me what I can and cannot post?
Criminey, if you haven't been around here that long I was actually quite tame with my post. but I am sure you knew that. I am done discussing this with you, either except a rogue post about typing which I am sure is very painful to accept. \
My opinion is bring the Tirpitz Or the Musashi after all this. Better yet, there was a kick bellybutton French BB that has slipped my mind and I would rather see it added first.
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why a french ship?,,sure they had big navy,,but it was never used,,lol,,,they gave up before they could use it,,,,,,,,,,,and post what you like,,,say what you like,,wont effect me,,, you can post any thing you wanna post,,,if you feal you have to mock people for stuff,,go ahead,,
Dude my brain hurts please stop. Going back to school to learn english again.
,,if you would of put,,jk,,or lol after that.,,.maybe i would of took it as a joke,,,but as it is,,it dont sound good,,and im sure anyone would of said the same thing or worse,,and how long you been around?,,,well i been on here a few years my self,,,,but you should act like it,,and be a man,,and say,,hey i didnt mean it like that it was just a joke,,,but know,,you keep adding more rude comments after anothere,,,,i wont argu this with you anymore,,if you wanna be cool and say,,,hey,,i didnt mean it like that.,,,ill except,,,if not,,oohh well
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i really dout aces high will have diffrent ships yet,,too many planes to be made and tanks,,,,would be nice too see a king tiger
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French Battleship
Richelieu, 35000t std, 8x15" ALL forward
But I like the Surcouf
a 2880t submarine with catapult (and hanger) AND twin 8" guns
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USN - 1
JEN - 0
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I wonder if a BB holding 12 main guns would have been possible... but we'll never know, since cruisers equipped with Tomahawks and other missiles can surely do more damage in less time
Yes. Once. The problem with the Tomahawk is that, in the VLS version, every cell with a Tomahawk is one less that can hold a Standard SM2MR for BG defense.
Having written software for training US Navy TAO (Tactical Action Officer) trainees and participated in a number of training simulation exercises at FCTCP (Fleet Combat Training Center, Pacific), I can say with some authority that taking out a modern warship with anti-ship missiles is a very ordnance-intensive procedure -- what is referred to as 'rolling back the defenses'. Basically, you launch a lot of ASMs; the target(s) put up SAMs to knock down some of them (limited by how many SAMs they can control at once), then launch again to knock down more of what's left (which have gotten closer), repeated until the missiles get close enough that the CIWS systems get their shot, and then the soft-kill systems (chaff, blip enhancers, etc) get to try. And if you can put more ASMs in the air than the defenders can shoot down between the time they come within range and the time they reach their target, you get hits.
This is why the Aegis cruisers are so effective for fleet defense. The Aegis system can control more than a hundred SAMs in the air at once, making it harder for the enemy to get missiles past your SAM screen. But once you've launched all your SAMs, you're SOL if the other guy still has ASMs.
Now, an ASM is a fairly delicate piece of equipment; it depends for proper operation on a lot of different systems all working right, all crammed into a relatively light frame and thin skin. A 40-lb expanding-rod warhead going off next to an ASM is almost certain to break something critical to the missile's operation. The same 40-lb expanding-rod warhead going off near a 2,600-lb SAP shell (1,900 lbs for the HC bombardment rounds) may deflect it a bit, but the shell is pretty much a rock -- it's got to be strong enough to withstand the firing stresses.
The advantage of an ASM over a 16" shell is obvious -- range. The Tomahawk has a range (as an ASM) of 300 miles; the 16" guns have a maximum range of about 23 miles. The disadvantage is loadout. The Iowa mounts 8 quad Tomahawk launchers, which can be launched at approximately 30-second intervals (per launcher); the 16" ammunition loadout is almost 1,200 rounds, which can be fired at 30-second intervals.
Overall, it depends on what your mission role is; modern warships are designed to hurl robotic kamikazes (if you think about it, it's amusing that technology has enabled us to duplicate a WWII desperation tactic without using up expensively-trained pilots) at other ships; WWII-era battleships are designed to hurl huge metal rocks at other ships -- and to survive having them hurled at them long enough to throw enough rocks to sink the other ship.
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What about this ship for the first Aces High Battle Ship...LOL. :D
Rather see the Shimikaze and the Helena.
Just personal pref. Long lancing task forces? 15 "automatic" 6" guns for bombardment?
Sakai
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Hmm…which battleship to build first? I’d be happy with just about any one, but would prefer the first one be one that saw fairly lengthy and significant service. I personally love the Iowa-class (got to tour the Might Mo – USS Missouri – back before she was decommissioned), but that would be like making the first heavy bomber produced for AH the B-29. Same thing with the Yamato class. The Bismarck and Tirpitz were certainly famous enough, but saw only limited use. The IJN’s Kongo BB was a pretty ship, and more of a middle of the road vessel in terms of armor, speed, and firepower. For sentimentality, you can’t beat the USS Arizona. Her contemporaries, raised from the muddy bottom of Pearl Harbor and repaired, served with distinction throughout the war, and fought the very last battleship versus battleship engagement in history, at the Battle of the Surigao Straights (spelling?) during the invasion at Leyte Gulf. Finally, there’s the King George V class. Gosh, I’d be happy with any of them, if…
…we get (a) a decent naval vessel damage model, (b) improved fire control (move it to the crow’s nest, where it belongs), (c) linked battery fire, (d) appropriate blast radius for naval gunfire, and (e) direct helm and speed control of fleets.
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Sabre,
Kongo wasn't a BB. Kongo was a Battlecruiser.
I'd select the Nagato as the base Japanese BB. Nagato was the only Japanese BB, or Battlecruiser, to survive the war. We expended her at the Bikini A-bomb tests, though she had to be finished off with conventional weapons.
The problem with the Nagato, Kongo, Pensylvania, California, ect, ect is that they lack the AA of the Yamato, Iowa, King George V, ect.
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The Yamato as Conways calls her was "The Ultimate battleship" would represent the Best of the Best, and when you realy think about Battleships hardely ever fired a shot at one another, so why not pic the bigest and badest to model:) She Was in Service from December 41.
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Originally posted by Karnak
Sabre,
Kongo wasn't a BB. Kongo was a Battlecruiser.
I'd select the Nagato as the base Japanese BB. Nagato was the only Japanese BB, or Battlecruiser, to survive the war. We expended her at the Bikini A-bomb tests, though she had to be finished off with conventional weapons.
The problem with the Nagato, Kongo, Pensylvania, California, ect, ect is that they lack the AA of the Yamato, Iowa, King George V, ect.
Indeed? Everything I ever remember seeing on the Kongo listed her as a BB (not doubting, just commenting). As far as I recall, no one built any battlecruisers after WWI, as the flaws in the whole BC concept had been exposed at Jutland. Kongo was built after WWI. Interesting. Could you quote your source? Thanks. Also, Nagato would be a fine addition to AH, too.
Brady: Yamoto was only ultimate in size and calibre. The Iowa class represents the best all around battleship class ever built, IMO. Yamoto had poor armor arrangement and water-tight comparmentalization, by all I've read. The superior fire control, speed, and maneuverability of the Iowa's would have given it the edge against the Yamoto, IMO. They also have the longest operational record, FWIW.
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Originally posted by Sabre
Brady: Yamoto was only ultimate in size and calibre. The Iowa class represents the best all around battleship class ever built, IMO. Yamoto had poor armor arrangement and water-tight comparmentalization, by all I've read. The superior fire control, speed, and maneuverability of the Iowa's would have given it the edge against the Yamoto, IMO. They also have the longest operational record, FWIW.
And the USN felt their fire control (radar controlled gunnery) was superior. Indeed, Japanese AARs always talk about the accuracy and rate of fire when facing US ships.
Sakai
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Sakai, I meant no slight to the Japanese Navy. In 1941, I've no doubt that Japanese gunnery was superior to USN gunnery. They'd been training hard for war. Even during the night engagement at Java, where the Allied flotilla should have had the edge with their radar controlled gunnery, the IJN cleaned their chronometers. The same thing happened at Savo. This was due in part to the fact that the Allied commander at Java didn't trust that "new fangled radar," and hence didn't take advantage of the increased engagement range it would have afforded him. The Japanese optics, particularly their night optics were significantly superior to American equipment at the beginning of the war. However, by late in 1944 America had surpassed Japan in pretty much every technological area (with the possible exception of night optics), and had had the time and resources to train their personnel to be the equal of Japanese naval personnel. The Iowa class was the best the US could build at the time, and was a generation ahead in all regards to the Yamoto. Radar fire control was much improved, and it use practiced and accepted. The speed and maneuverability edge of the Iowa would allow it to dictate the fight.
Unfortunately, or fortunately depending on your point of view, Halsey missed the one opportunity to test these two behemouths against one another, at Leyte Gulf. By dragging his battle line with his carriers in pursuit of the Japanese Northern Decoy Force, he forever left open the question of which battlewagon was "better."
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Sabre:
Think we Miscommed. I agree entirely with your assessments, I wasn't talking about Jap Gunnery but rather US. Sorry for being so clipped and cryptic.
Agree, it would have been sweet to have seen the Iowas take on the Jap Fleet BBs, but then, what would we have to talk about?
Sakai
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Originally posted by senna
Actually the Yamato went on to save the world from evil aliens.
http://members.aol.com/neghvar2/starblazers.mid
We need Andromeda and the Comet Empire in AH...
Perked fer sure :cool:
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Originally posted by Sabre
Hmm…which battleship to build first?
Gimme the Big Mamie (USS Massachusetts), 19 battle stars! Iowa Class.
No pic, go to Fah Riva, MA, to check her out :D
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Massachusetts is a South Dakota Class battleship.
Vati66
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Originally posted by vatiAH
Massachusetts is a South Dakota Class battleship.
Vati66
Yes you are right. was also reading about the Iowa while she was mothballed in Newport...got carried away.
I stand corrected.
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How about he bismarck guys:D think it's showed on earlier pictures, that one of Viper
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Sabre,
We called the Kongo class BBs, but they were really battlecruisers. You are almost correct in saying that nobody laid down any battlecruisers after WWI. The Kongo, and her sister ships, were built for Japan by the United Kingdom, Kongo entering service in 1913. The last battlecruisers (CBs) were the Alaska class, only two of which were completed, both in 1944.
By contrast, the Nagato class was the first native built Japanese battleships, and were the most powerful in the world when they were launched in 1920 (Mutsu in 1921), and the first to mount 16" guns. They were faster than the UK's Queen Elizabeth class (the best BBs in the world prior to the Nagato class), better armed and better armored.
Actually, my favorite Japanese ships are the Takao class CAs. They were quite possibly the finest heavy cruisers of WWII. The Alaska class was ordered in part to hunt Takao class ships as we were expecting the Japanese to use them as comerce raiders, a role they were exceptionally suited to. Fortunately for us (me in particular as my grandfather was in the Merchant Marine in the South Pacific) the Japanese were fixated on the "line of battle" concept and slaved themselves to the BBs and CBs.
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i think they should put in the first iron battle wagon,,,,,the uss monitor!! hehahehahe
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Karnak, thanks for the info. I new the UK built a number of ships for the IJN prior to WWI, but didn't realize the Kongo was one of those. The picture in my head is of a more modern looking vessel, with a very tall and distinct "pagoda" superstructure. Perhaps is was the Nagato I was thinking of after all. I was aware of the Alaska class, but thought they were cancelled before they'd been completed. Thanks again.
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The pagoda bridge structures were added just prior to WWII, the IJN seemed to have developed a fetish for those in the 30's.
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USS New Jersey
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Just drug out the game manual for my old wargame, "Battlewagon" and looked up the stats on the Kongo. While even in there, they call it a BB, the armor thicknesses (belt, deck, turret face, and turret top) are certainly more indicative of a battlecruiser's. It says she was refitted around 1930, which matches Thud's info about when the pagota-like superstructure and masts were added. Now USS Montana...that's a battleship! Says she was supposed to be completed in 1944, but was cancelled before she was launched. Man, what a monster, and twelve 16-inch guns to boot. Armor penetration for the 16-inch and the Yamoto's 18-inch were pretty close, with the Yamoto's guns out-ranging the American 16-inch by about 2 miles...for anyone interested. Again, by all accounts, the Yamoto's armor arrangement and water-tight compartmentalization was supposedly inferior, though both Yamoto and Musashi took one heck of a pounding before they went down.
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OK I know I am gonna be wrong, as usual, but didnt the Yamato take something like 24 bombhits and 6 or 8 fish before going under?
And, are 24 bomb hits really a lot, if you compared that to the absolute mauling the Bismark took before the Germans scuttled her?
I'm pretty much here to learn, not add to the debate, so...thanks!:rolleyes:
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Originally posted by Red Tail 444
OK I know I am gonna be wrong, as usual, but didnt the Yamato take something like 24 bombhits and 6 or 8 fish before going under?
And, are 24 bomb hits really a lot, if you compared that to the absolute mauling the Bismark took before the Germans scuttled her?
I'm pretty much here to learn, not add to the debate, so...thanks!:rolleyes:
I think you'll find that the qualitative improvements in weaponry and delivery systems were fairly substantial from 1941 to 1944-45.
The Bismarck engagement was made with pre-war Capital Ship engagement doctrine in mind and aircraft were almost an after thought, even though the telling blow that lead to her demise was delivered by an aircraft.
By 1944-45 aircraft bombs came in AP and HE formats for large targets and revised Capital ship doctrine meant that the BBs avoided each other, and were used largely for Shore Bombardment.
The weapons used against the Yamato and Musashi were designed to kill a large armoured platform, where the 1941 equivalents were much more generic in design.
palef.
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The Bismarck took about 700 hits from various calibers and maybe a torp or two before she went down.
An examination of the wreck revealed that it did not really matter whether the crew had tried to scuttle her or not, she was really shot up really bad. Still, that's one heck of a pounding...
I wonder what the Scarnhost and Gneisenau took... anyone?
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bismark took more than a few torpedos, and a lot of shell shots,,but what i can remmeber of what i seen of the reck underwater she in pretty good shape,,,and lots of people say looks like it can still float,,,all the turrets fell off on the way down,,and germans say they scuttled it,,and british say they sunk it. im not sure which one but i know it would of went down anyways it was way out numberd in that battle and rudder being stuck in a turn dont help much.and its 15inch guns could load faster than usa's 16 inchers and had just the same punch and range. very deadly ship in its time
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Well she may have been very deadly, but I can't help wonder why she was predominantly defeated by a much older battleship. During the final battle the Rodney almost singlehandly shot the Bismarck up, especially since the King GV was suffering from the same teething problems that had rendered the Prince of Wales virtually useless in the earlier battle. And all that considering that the Bismarck had retained all but her full battle capability (apart from manouevrability of course.
So how come a Nelson class vessel could perform so well against a much more modern enemy?
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ever play fighting steel?,,,,play that senario with bismarks final moments,,,and you will see why,,had half the british fleet on her,,no ship can stand up too 800 shells and dozens of torpedos,,and plus they attacked her from behind at first,,so she couldnt use all her main guns,,till they picked her apart,,a battle ship that cant turn is dead
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and the hms rodney wasnt a joke,,or old ship!!,,she was british newist battle wagon,,,and top of the line tech,,with escorts ca's,,dd's,,,bc's,,,there was no way one battle wagon could fight that off,,not even yamato would of survived that onslaught or any othere battle wagon
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Originally posted by Thud
Well she may have been very deadly, but I can't help wonder why she was predominantly defeated by a much older battleship. During the final battle the Rodney almost singlehandly shot the Bismarck up, especially since the King GV was suffering from the same teething problems that had rendered the Prince of Wales virtually useless in the earlier battle. And all that considering that the Bismarck had retained all but her full battle capability (apart from manouevrability of course.
So how come a Nelson class vessel could perform so well against a much more modern enemy?
My Grandfather served on the Nelson, and they were tremendously battle worthy as a class. The Nelson was torpedoed twice in the early part of the Med. campaign, and sailed back to Porstmouth with a large part of it's bow missing on one occasion.
The biggest disadvantage the Rodney and Nelson suffered was a comparatively underpowered propulsion system which left them a full 10knots slower that KGV class BB. According to my grandfather, they never attained the rated speed during sea trials, so the differential may have been greater than 10knots.
For a couple of Capital ships that were supposedly nobbled by post WW1 treaty limitations, they performed sterling service throughout WW2. It is also worthwhile to remember that the RN had a great deal of pride in their tradition, and at the start of WW2 they probably enjoyed operational primacy over their oppponents.
palef.
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i heard they were good battle wagons,,,ahead of there time in bulkhead and water tight design,,and the 3 turrets up front was kinda diffrent,,they were suposta be the best british had to offer during the peace time treaty restrictions,,but they were a little underpowerd,,made it up in firepower and armor
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Originally posted by Angus
Wonder what kind of fire control the Yamato had.
I know that the Germans had a good system aided by radar, somewhat better than the British had, however the Brits trained extensively at sea, and managed to keep an excellent record at hitting things far out.
The Bismarck did not have so bad odds when it faced Rodney/Nelson. While the Bismarck was damaged and thereby not able to maneuver, the british ship was a lot slower. They approached roughly head on, both firing, and this time the Brits were the ones to score the first hit. The British ship was a lot smaller and not so well armoured, however armed with 9 16 inch gun all on the foredeck, so posing quite a threat. The Germans therefore directed their fire onto it, trying to knock it out as soon as possible.
The Bismarck was tough, - it was estimated that it took more than 700 hits of various calibers:eek:
Another engagement was HMS Belfast vs Scharnhorst (or was it Gneisenau). While Belfast was only a cruiser armed with 6 inch guns, the Brits were the first to score hits and totally fix their aim on their target while the Germans did not. The battleship had to evade against the enemy who was only about 1/4th of their size!!
The world record against a moving target was scored by the HMS Warspite at cape Matapan in an engagement against the Italian navy. The WWI veteran managed to slam one of its 15 inch shells into one of the italian ships at the stunning range of 26 km!!!!
I wonder if the 18 inch guns were any better. The Americans were happy about their 16 inch guns, the British and Germans mostly kept to the 15 inch guns, and the King George class only had 13 inch guns, - Scharnhorst/Gneisenau 11 inch guns, as well as the three "pocket" battleships of the Krigsmarine.
The smaller calibre meant lighter projectiles of course, but a greater rate of fire. The 11 inch guns were quite fast!
And in an engagement of battleships, the one who manages to get a fix on his target sooner is most usually the winner.
In a slugout between Yamato/Bismarck/King George/Iowa I would not necessarily put my money on the Yamato. Depends on aim, luck and tactics. But shelling a field in AH, I'd sure wanna have it:D
Come to think of it, - AH could do with a little more navy stuff. Would be heaps of fun!
What fire control? Is the answer to your first question. Also the American rolled homogenous armor was of MUCH higher quality than the Japanese armor. The Germans was good also.
Check this out!!!!! (http://64.124.221.191/baddest.htm)
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The Bismark lost it's firing control system for the forward two turrets within the first 15 minutes of battle. That's 50% of her firepower.
However, her fate was sealed when the torpedo froze her rudders into position. Even with 100% firepower, she cant hit ehat she couldnt range.
Gainsie
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germans had the best fire controll on there guns,,,usa had best radar at the time,,japanies were best at night fighting,,they all had there good and bad,,british ships were good all around,,under armored a little but good ships no dout
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Originally posted by hyena426
germans had the best fire controll on there guns,,,usa had best radar at the time,,japanies were best at night fighting,,they all had there good and bad,,british ships were good all around,,under armored a little but good ships no dout
Actually, US BBs had computer controlled main armaments and they were deadly. The Iowa class is considered by some to have been the deadliest built for that very reason. Japanese heavies that engaged even older us Warships commented on the rate of fire and accuracy of our ships. I doubt German ships were more accurate than the US, we'll never know I reckon.
Bismarck was a fine ship but she couldn't compete by herself and ultimately she proved what we knew after Pearl: It's all about air power baby.
Sakai
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only one reason air power got the bismark,,was because its guns were rigged to track faster planes,,they didnt expect torpedo bomber bi planes,,so there guns were too fast to track such slow moving planes,,it was a big mistake,,and lucky draw for british:),,{fire controll has nothing to do with accuracy},,its how good all there guns track a target at the same time,,there guns were better on german ships for tracking fast and rate of fire,,go check us big 16s were slow loading compared to germans 15's..with same range and power,,,but us ships had better radar .and accuratcy was never known if it was better or not,,,we will never know who's was better in that department,,,uss iowa and sister ships were bad to the bone,,i been on new jersy and missouri while she still had all the old guns,,and stood on the spot were japanies signed the surrended,,,tirpiz vs iowa would of been a mean battle
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wasn't the tirpiz was squeak slaped by tall boy deep penetration bombs (didn't it take 2 direct hits to disable it though?)
hmmm, i just got an idea, when we get u-boats, we should have sub-pens at ports that can ONLY be destroyed by tall boys and grandslams (of course then we will need the lanc mk 1 SE)
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ya,,,germans let tirpiz sit in the same port and get bombed daily,,,they were too afraid to let the ship out of there port,,,one of hitlers blunders again,,lol
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only one reason air power got the bismark,,was because its guns were rigged to track faster planes,,they didnt expect torpedo bomber bi planes,,so there guns were too fast to track such slow moving planes...
thats their own fault for being moronic, as they knew the FAA used the Swordfish...& dont tordonut planes come in head on the target ship? in that case tracking rate should be minimal
sub pens should be vulnerable to topedo attack too
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it was one lucky hit,,,did the hole ship in,,,they started shooting the water in front of the swordfish and the water would shoot up and take a few down,,,just one of them lucky shots right in the rudder doomed the hole ship,because bismark could not steer with with its props
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the RN lost no swordfish to the bizmark as i recall, the bullets just went through the canvas wings!
As oppossed to when hitler gambled a big fleet to go from the west of france, to the polish port, he did it thru the english channel
The 'fish were ment to have a spit escort, but they were taking so long that the 'fish commander took off with the wing to sink the ships
All sword fish were shot down, BUT by the 109s escorting the fleet
The wing commander was given the victorian cross, what was his name?