Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: FDutchmn on June 29, 2002, 12:56:55 PM
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Mitsu in this thread, Anyone else notice?... round 2 (http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=57096), mentioned about Stall Limiter in the Flight Model for v1.10 on this webpage, Flight (http://www.hitechcreations.com/flight.html).
What does this mean? Is this for off-line only or if when enabled, in the MA let's say, we get different stall characteristics?
How is this used?
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Well thinking out loud the "stall limiter" sounds like an easymode setting.
If available in the Main, that doesn't bode well from this end :(
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cf. Warbirds EasyMode (not the same as RR)
In theory, it's to help the new kids who keep spinning in. THink of it as training wheels on a bike. Training wheels prevent the bicycle from exceeding a certain bank angle so the kid can learn how to keep the bicycle in the "balanced" regime.
The AoA limiter will prevent a player from pulling out of the CF regime.
If it's implemented well, it should prevent the player from getting anywhere near a stall, and be a royal pain in the ass.
The way it was implemented in WB, it gave an advantage to turnfighters, since they wobbled around a lot less at slow speeds and got better marksmanship.
So no, it doesn't change the flight model. It does however limit the player's ability to get in trouble. If it's implemented smoothly like WB, it will be a step backwards. If it's implemented coarsely, like Combat Trim is, it might work.
Save your whining for 1.10. And if it's bad, I'll whine too.
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Thnx for the explanation gents, but this I know... what I want to know is how is this going to be implemented. Will players have different stall characteristics when this switch is enabled and when disabled in the same arena?
yes I would save the whining but this is a concept already in place. Somebody should be able to explain this.
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There is gonna be a whinestorm of major proportions if stall limiter is what I think it is and it's allowed in the MA.
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I suspect no need to plan any whines, if it limits the AOA anybody who pushes the limits will run rings around anybody using it.
It will only help those who keep stalling but as we all have absolute control of our rides we need not worry.
Right ?
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And THAT whinestorm would be well founded.
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Originally posted by funkedup
There is gonna be a whinestorm of major proportions if stall limiter is what I think it is and it's allowed in the MA.
I have heard that HT will never consider a relaxed realism flight model. But this is a setup to allow just that I think. I would guess that it would have a separate arena to allow newbs to train, if it in fact is implemented. No way can you let some planes be easy mode and some planes be hardmode in the same arena.
Common sence and fairplay would dictate that. I only hope that
if it is a tool to change settings on FMs that the arena its used in does not become a popular place to fly as it was in AirWarrior.
It cost the full real crowd large numbers of players while teaching
bad FMs to the kindergarteners.
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Perhaps a "advanced arena" is just what the Doctor ordered.
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Please please please no RR just say no!
the old mac aw pile-its refer to the time when Voss broke the RR as the happy times.
then when we got over on aol they fixed RR and nobody flew FR so it made the FR learning curve much harder. and skills do deteriorate if not practiced. was hard to get the folks out of the RR arena and back into FR but we eventually did and it was good
with any form of RR there is no learning it is just an arcade game.
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I understand the worries some people have about this apparent "aoa limiter". Nobody wants to see AH turn into an arcade game.
But if done properly, you won't even be able to tell the guys using it from those who aren't, except the guys using it won't be able to do radical maneuvers. It should have no effect on the flight model.
Remember, in other games--AW, WB's, FA--the "ezmode" lets planes do things other planes can't, hence makes FR flying pointless. However, if this "aoa limiter" works the way I suspect it will, the opposite will be true--the guys flying the "hard way" will have options the "aoa limited" guys lack. In other words, people will stop using the "aoa limiter" once they get used to their ride.
Fly around and never pull hard enough to make the stall buzzer go off. You'll never stall (good for learning) but not maneuver as well. That's about how I expect this system to work.
Of course, I could be wrong and this might be the doomsday system some people expect....but why not wait and see? I recall the doosday predictions when Combat Trim was announced.....and in practice it doesn't affect anything.
EDIT: Upon closer inspection, it appears the system will be completely configurable at the host. Nothing to worry about :)
J_A_B
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Nobody wants to see AH turn into an arcade game.
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I have felt at times that this is happening or has already happened. I seem to waffle on it so I am non-concluded.
But! and this is a BIG but. A stall limiter might just convince me that AH is about arcade fun and not about complex difficulty (aka challenging).
Stall limiter is not about making the game easier as I believe its already way too easy. Its about something else.
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Originally posted by poopster
And THAT whinestorm would be well founded.
Agreed.
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Just wait 3 or 4 days, no need to start prewhine now :) It may be only for training arena, I guess, but anyway, lets see.
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Easymode is good as it will help the true beginners. As for the rest of you oldtime wrinkly faced vulchers, 1.10 is looking to be an awsome release. So release it already, hurry up man.
:p
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Originally posted by J_A_B
EDIT: Upon closer inspection, it appears the system will be completely configurable at the host.
Indeed. This I knew... depending on this configuration, the player will be given the option to control his/her stall characteristics... that is if I am understanding this corectly...
Originally posted by Fariz
It may be only for training arena, I guess,
maybe... it might well be HTC is going to place another arena with this option in it. Perhaps like Relaxed Realism in Air Warrior.
so what is being planned? the concept itself has been published already... kinda wanna know...
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Relax, this feature won't make it "arcadish", in fact I think poeple using it will have a disadvantage, it will not let the plane do more, it will just keep you from pulling high G's so u don't stall, but can't do many manuvers you could with it turned off.
This will help beginners learn the game, but keep it balanced and make flying with out the limiter benifitial once you have learned to fly.
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Originally posted by cajun
This will help beginners learn the game, but keep it balanced and make flying with out the limiter benifitial once you have learned to fly.
how is this? So far, what we heard is not comparable to what is said of the combat trim. On combat trim, the reaction speed is purposely made slower so that the optimum can be achieved faster controlling manually.
I am trying to whine by me self for the sake of whining. The concept was published, can't I ask about it? Can't somebody clarify further without me being told to shut up?
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"A stall limiter might just convince me that AH is about arcade fun and not about complex difficulty "
If--IF-- it works like we suspect, and just prevents you from pulling the plane far enough to stall, how does that change anything at all for you? It'd still be better to fly the "hard way", and by using the system new guys would have one less thing to worry about till they got comfortable with flying.
Also, since it appears this will disableable on the host side, perhaps they're intending it for the TA and H2H or something.
We'll just have to wait and see. Or, as you might say--relax, it's just a game :) .
J_A_B
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Maybe the only accurate answer is that we don't yet know how or where it will be implemented?
I do think the business model of AH is just as important as flight modeling. Imagine a challenging golf course with only championship tees. The course may be great for low-handicappers, but would soon be bankrupt.
I would consider AH flight modeling and game play to be championship level tees compared to other on-line flight sims. The market size for those of us who appreciate as close to realistic as possible flight modeling (on a 2D screeen) is pretty small.
Ignoring the arcade market is financially foolish. If stall limiter is a relaxed-type flight mode, then income generated from an "arcade arena" would only help to support continued game development. And that helps us all.
Maybe, tabun, perhaps...
fullback
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Originally posted by J_A_B
"A stall limiter might just convince me that AH is about arcade fun and not about complex difficulty "
We'll just have to wait and see. Or, as you might say--relax, it's just a game :) .
J_A_B
Yes the game is not about difficulty, especialy complex difficulty. Its a game. Its very very gamey. Just give it a think. 2 Planes collide, one flies away. Next version you will be controling 3 bombers from one seat. Take offs and landings are childsplay. Great GAME, but its about fun, not realism. :D
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..
(should not post things like that that late)
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PERK THE STALL LIMITER!!
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Wouldn't an 'arcade' arena take from the main arena's population? I'd hate to see the main go from 400+ a night to 30-40 a night (just speculation). I like the main's population and would never fly an arena considered arcade -- which is the primary reason I'm not playing Fighter Ace right now.
What doesn't bother me is an AoA limiter. That just seems like a disadvantage for the person using it.
Anyway, like others have mentioned, it's premature to be worrying about it now.
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i agree with those of you supporting the stall limiter because, supposing that the planes with the limiter on will turn slower than those able to stall a bit, this makes it less frustrating to learn to fly. although really, who will use this and how is it implemented?
if it is used by inexperienced pilots who just need "training wheels" to fight the frustration and overall "danger" of stalling, there shouldn't be a problem. however, if implemented in the wrong way (i.e. making aces high an "arcade game") there could be real problems. perhaps this system should only be available to those being actively trained by a normal member (well, none of us are normal...but you get the idea :-D).i would also suggest a time-controlled set of training wheels as the deciding factor in this. say for example that after 50 flight hours or three weeks of play the system is automatically shut off, or that after the training system itself is used for a set amount of hours it shuts off. of course, a few will still go around by creating new accounts and playing for two free weeks before changing again to another two free weeks, or whatever the case (i assume u all understand what i mean), but the truth is that this would be A REAL PAIN IN THE ARSE to do, what with the changing of the id's and such, and only the most determined idiots would continue this behavior for any length of time, during which the uninhibited pilots would be waxing them to the nth degree, and that is if and only if the system works as it sounds like it will.if it doesn't and AH ends up like so many other flight sims, a victim of it's own advancement, then we'll all end up in some other flight sim, donig this same spiel over, and over, and over....
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Originally posted by FDutchmn
how is this? So far, what we heard is not comparable to what is said of the combat trim. On combat trim, the reaction speed is purposely made slower so that the optimum can be achieved faster controlling manually.
I am trying to whine by me self for the sake of whining. The concept was published, can't I ask about it? Can't somebody clarify further without me being told to shut up?
FDutchmn, I never said anything negative, or to shut up,
All I'm saying that your manuverability will be greatly decreced with aoa, where if you chose to turn it off you can push it to the limit, giving you a much greater advantage in manuverability if you are a decent pilot.
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Sorry, I should have taken it more lightly but I did not understand the tone that some people started to take my question as a whine to begin with. Yes, it can lead to a whine in the end but it is even too early to judge if it even worth a whine. I think this should be clarified further whatever the case. If let's say, I rope a guy and find out he doesn't stall, without accurate knowledge of this feature, I might accidentally go around accusing the guy unjustly. What I saw here was some people started to downplay this concern by labelling my question as a whine. For this reason, I would rather have this question answered more accurately than just speculation, otherwise we are playing with speculation with another speculation. Again, especially to cajun, excuse me to have taken your comment sensitively.
Now then, it seems from the comments now, this stall limiter is not quite I as first envisioned. The "stall limiter" that was "there" in Air Warrior Relax Realism was the type that automatically adjusts your joystick input which will leave your plane at the maximum AoA allowable for the speed that you are flying. So even if you pull your stick all the way, you will not stall. I left Relax Realism for Full Realism because after playing to two months in Relax Realism, I found that it was like yank and bank all the time and nothing much else.
However, it seems that this feature on AH limits the AoA "pullable" well below the maximum allowable AoA before stall. If this is the case then it is of no concern, as manuverability is greatly reduced while this feature is enabled. I hope that this is the case, and not the stall limiter that we saw on AW.
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If this is what I think, it won't need a separate arena, but will help those who are used to flying RR in other sims while they get used to FR. I don't think it will give them any advantage at all other than helping to prevent them getting into spins, and the rest of us who don't use it won't be affected either - except we may get more kills! :D I'm no fighter pilot, but I believe "riding the stall" is a tactic often used, which won't be possible if using the stall limiter, putting anyone using it at a distinct disadvantage. I really don't think there is anything to worry about, and am sure similar was said when Combat Trim was introduced - which I do use! :D
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Originally posted by Fariz
no need to start prewhine now :)
Hehe, no whine here, maybe just ...the crushing of the grapes:D
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Is this not like F1 traction control; people criticised it was cheating, but it only helped the pilot limit slipping, not create traction?
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One thing is certain, HTC is in business to make money. If this feature brings in a whole bunch of new players allowing HTC to make more money and thereby give us more/better releases...that's a good thing. If on the other hand, this feature ruins the game play we've all come to expect, I'm sure HTC will hear about it before we all give up on the game and quit. Given HTC's history I think we can all relax a bit with the understanding that HTC will make changes to keep their customer base intact.
In the mean time, if anyone can name a sim that is more responsive to their community, has a better flight model and costs as little as AH...please speak up..I'd love to give it a try.
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dude you beter specify massivly multi player cause except for that il2 beats um on all counts . and every thread dosent get attacked as a whine by the chearleaders.
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I am sure that everyone knows what I think about any help of this kind into MA.
so I'll simply save my words for until the release has happened.
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Learning how to fly has a lot to do with learning limitations.
Hard practice and study rewards players with "skill".
"Skilled" people know their aircraft by every inch, every corner. A "skilled" pilot feels rewarded and earn some sense of pride from the fact that they have mastered the plane of their choice - whereas an unskilled pilot does not know where the limits lie in, and consistantly meet failure. A steep learning curve is what motivates people to try harder, and feel competitive towards someone better than they.
I spent a lot of time learning to control my degree of pulling the stick, how much I may wield it without having to stall everytime, what sort of maneuver it takes to sucker the other pilot into augering and so on..
If I ever get to see cocky newbies flying around and pulling super tight turns(which, people like me have had to practice for months to learn the right degree of control - with a large risk of crashing the plane) in an already disgustingly(my personal opinion!) well turning Spitfires or N1K2s the first day they get off the ground... I think I'm gonna be sick.
Or, when I see a total newbie sticking behind my 6 OC no matter what I do, and get to think to myself "gee, this guy hardly understands flight and tactics.. he would probably smack the ground in wild stick pull if it weren't for that stall-limiter..!"...
It's gonna be a really sad day.
I just hope this function is disabled at the MA... and host-controlled in H2H games.
ps) On the other hand, if it isn't what some people believe it is(allowing people to achieve maximum possible AoA in current situation without worry of stalling the aircraft)..
and if it is a simple 'crutch' tool so the limiter literally limits the stall in terms of 'likely-to-stall basis' (meaning, it will stop stick input at the moment stall buzzers start to ring) - so that it is a nifty tool for basic training purposes, but virtually useless to be used in actual combat..
I guess it's ok in that case..
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Yep Kweassa...That is what I think too.
I just know that I learned how to fly the hard way. Fighting and dying. By the old means of the trial&error. And I loved each moment of learning even while sometimes it was hard.
Everyone who started in the MMOL flight simulaton world,learned to fly that way. As many others here did. What's the problem with it?.
Maybe I'm too closed minded to understand it, but, well, for me this is no good. We already have autotakeoffs. We already have CT (wich I heartly dislike). We will have incentives for the trainers to teach new people.
Why to add FBW into AH?. One of the first BIG issues in ANY realistic flight simulation is to understand why planes stall, and how to avoid it. It is the FIRST rule to learn here...and now we're bypassing it with this option.
That is something than even in TA is not good. That doesn't teach you to fly properly, that just will create a vice on any newbie who turns it on.
This is no good...But that's just my take on the matter.
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dolf vader,
I'm not sure what others would define as "Massisvely Multiplayer", but if one goes by what seems to be the norm in the gaming industry you'd be something like the following: 2-3k people on a given server would put you in the ballpark, with 20-30k playing during prime time over numerous servers. MMP applies more to the Big 3 RPG's...EQ, AC, DAoC, and to a lesser extent now, UO and AO. I'm not aware of any online flightsims that come close to this level of user base. Lots of "Multiplayer" ones out there, no "Massive" ones though.
Vortex
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From news:
7 Added a stall limiter, this has a number of modes of configuration from the host.
a) No one can use it.
b) Everyone must use it.
c) User selectable.
d) Only new users (1 month) can select it.
I guess MA will be in d) mode. I still don't like it (I really don't see how putting a stall limiter will help the learning of anyone), but the sky's not falling after all. :).
No whinestorm it seems, hehehe. As I said, I don't think is a real help for any newbie, but it's a nice idea on how to implement it without enabling an EZ-mode in MA :)
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BTW wtf is HT doing WORKING in sunday?
this guys sometimes --really-- amaze me :eek:
:)
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People seem to be concerned that this Stall Limiter will make Aces High an arcade game !
IMO the MA is already there.
1. The FM in AH is not anywhere nearly as difficult as FR was in AW.
2. I would welcome a RR arena in AH, because it would allow AH to have a FR Arena where we could have friendly collisions and no kill shooter.
3. We could have FR without HO's... and we wouldn't have the Gang Bang theory of attack being the most prevalent form of attack on bases...
4. It would provide a seperate arena for the not quite so serious players to play and have fun... while allowing those that truly love the Flight Sim and realism aspects to fly without interference.
5. We might actually get some good one on one fights !!!
I am all for a RR arena in Aces High. For kicks our squad used to go into one of the RR arenas for a squad nite once in awhile...
We went in took names and plain and simple kicked arse...
the only problem was after flying in an RR arena... It took a little time to re-acclimate to the FR flight model
Just my .02cents worth
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Originally posted by BOOT
People seem to be concerned that this Stall Limiter will make Aces High an arcade game !
IMO the MA is already there.
1. The FM in AH is not anywhere nearly as difficult as FR was in AW.
Yes but AW FR wasnt a good FM it gave you a difficult FM by giving you unrealistic penaties for leaving the flight envelope.
Like those BS spins and at least a thousand ft of alt loss to recover. :rolleyes: And did you know you can stall an aircraft without spinning it? In RL anyways, not in AW :D Just a few of the unrealistic things in the AW FR BS FM.Harder does not translate into more realistic. :cool:
AW was 10 times as arcadish as AH is and thats a fact.
:eek:
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Originally posted by BOOT
3. We could have FR without HO's... and we wouldn't have the Gang Bang theory of attack being the most prevalent form of attack on bases...
So explain to me once again how this is going to get rid of HO attacks?!?!
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Originally posted by RRAM
BTW wtf is HT doing WORKING in sunday?
this guys sometimes --really-- amaze me :eek:
:)
I think that HTC tried to make it in time until the end of month, that is why work on sunday. They did not promised this, but said it will be most likely out till end of month. When they saw that they can't make it, they put out some information to keep people from killing the server by checking forum for news every 3 seconds ;)
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First time I ever took off in the MA was in dec-01. I had spent perhaps 2-3 hours offline learning the basics. I was an ace on offline sims though. And I suffered heavily from the "hard turn"-syndrome, basically it was the only acm I knew (well that one and the Immelmann anyway) all other manuvers forced you to loose eye contact with the bandit at some point in the manuver.
So I rolled a 190a5 from A42 in the Baltic map. Got off the ground ok, saw that there was some action over the water, so I turned my little 190a5 gently to the left and headed for the action. I must have pulled too tight though, because the next second the stall horn was going off like crazy, and I found myself in a nasty stall. Less then 30 seconds later I was back in the tower. And I was ashamed too...better believe it. I thought every pilot within Icon range sat infront of their monitors laughing their tulips off at me.
So anyway, I grabbed myself another 190a5, got on the runway. This time I drove smack into the tower on the takeoff roll.
So now Im sitting infront of my monitor embarrased beyond words. In fact, I was so convinced that I now had a reputation among the rooks (yes you read right, I started out as a rook) as being the worst crappy rookie ever, so I switched country. I became knight, and once again I chose the 190a5. I chose a desolate field (I think it was A1 or something...miles from anything) and once again I started the engine. This time it worked better, I got off the ground, and I spent an hour or so trying to master all the difficulties of flying.
Nowadays I'm somewhat better on taking off (but I still have the occational smack into the tower or some FH on the takeoff roll). And sometimes when Im rolling from some base I see some new guy with a handle like 6644833 or Jedi15 desperately trying to get his ride off the ground. And I smile some, not to be mean or anything, but because I remember what it was like to sit there sweating infront of the computer trying to get airborne in the MA for the first time.
Im sure I had a point to this story when I began. I suppose it was something like, its supposed to be hard in the beginning, it gets so much more rewarding when you learn to master it.
And now you also know why I fly for the knights (true story).
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Yep Hortlund I have sat in the tower and just watched guys trying to take off over and over again. Roll, rotate early, spin, crash, repeat. If this can reduce their frustration level so they stick with the game long enough to learn how to do it right, that's good for business. And it means more targets for me. :)
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We already have stall limiter.
It's your pitch sliders in a joystick set-up screen.
I've got mine 1/4 of the way down ( from the top ) and what it does is let me pull all the G's I want (up to 4-5 G's at 300mph).
You will still stall trying to pull 4 G's at 200 but that's where the stall horn comes in handy. On the other hand if you pull more than 5 G's or so at 300 mph you'll black-out. Yes i know, we all have done a pull out from a steep dive completely blacked out and next thing you see is blue sky. Maybe fixing this bug will come later but for now I try to avoid black outs, just like the real pilots do.
BTW, if any of guys wanna give it a try use the G-meter in your cockpit and have your stick set-up so you are just on a edge of black out at your plane's corner speed.
!S!
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Originally posted by sling322
So explain to me once again how this is going to get rid of HO attacks?!?!
Sling, They can be shut off... or at least set to have a diminished damage effect... If it is not at full lethality it would become the same senseless tactic that it was in WW2. Only used in desperation as opposed to a constant ACM.
It's really not that big of a deal, but I do get tired of some of the folks attempting a HO... then extend and come back for another HO... LOL
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This may be a repeat, but I think the stall limiter will be similar to the j-stick setup ability we had in AW FR. You could set your stick to max out at 80% or whatever to reduce blackouts and stalls. You paid for this with the reduced ability to turn the sucker. No big deal really.
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Originally posted by midnight Target
This may be a repeat, but I think the stall limiter will be similar to the j-stick setup ability we had in AW FR. You could set your stick to max out at 80% or whatever to reduce blackouts and stalls. You paid for this with the reduced ability to turn the sucker. No big deal really.
AW's stick scaling did the same thing as AH's stick scaler and isn't related to the stall limiter.
McQ, your stick scale isn't the same as a stall limiter because you can can push the envelope and ride the edge of a stall or blackout. If you have stall limitar turned on, you wouldn't be able to, regardless of how you've scaled your stick.
There more I think about it, the more I'm starting to like the idea of a stall limiter. This means those that have a tough time either learning or transitioning to the AH flight model will have an easier time but the added benefit is that it means more kills for me :)
Ack-Ack
479th FG - Riddle's Raiders
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Originally posted by BOOT
Sling, They can be shut off... or at least set to have a diminished damage effect... If it is not at full lethality it would become the same senseless tactic that it was in WW2. Only used in desperation as opposed to a constant ACM.
Worth noting, the gunnery and damage model here isn't at all like the one from AW, which it appears is what you are using as a reference point. There are no directional zones per se as I understand it (ala the front, rear, and side zones of the AW "bubble"). Thus there is nothing to add modifiers to. Accordingly you can't simply discard a percentage of hits from a given quarter here as you could in AW. All angles are treated equally insofar as ability to hit goes.
I do agree with your conclusion though. If there was one thing I prefered about AW it was the fact that you actually had to fly for, and accordingly earn, a kill there. Thats not the case with AH unfortunately, what with all the jousting that takes place.
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The single essential point you are all missing from what I've been able to get out of this grossly overblown thread. The training wheels come off at the 30day mark and can't be put back on again!
Besides you don't even know if it will be enabled in the MA.
Hitech is working hard to make some improvments to keep from loseing half of those who try AH. Only to discover they can't do it and quit in frustration. Not only will they not return they'll tell everyone they know how impossible AH is to fly.
The Training mentor program, this stall limiter, are both aimed at the same problem. Getting people in the air and getting them hooked that first day.
Currently we're loseing half of all people who try AH for the first time. And we're loseing them in the first hour.
Relax folks, HT knows better than to mess up the main! Gee you guys are WAY too tense, take a chill pill.
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"The single essential point you are all missing from what I've been able to get out of this grossly overblown thread. The training wheels come off at the 30day mark and can't be put back on again!"
Or....
a) No one can use it.
b) Everyone must use it.
c) User selectable.
Will be interesting to see how it plays out....
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People are forever complaining about HOs... how about instead of trying to lobby to prevent people from doing it, you instead learn how to manuever around it.
Don't spout the inevitable "you can't dodge a HO", because I do it every single freaking sortie, and usually 3 or 4 times in each sortie.
-SW
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Originally posted by AKSWulfe
People are forever complaining about HOs... how about instead of trying to lobby to prevent people from doing it, you instead learn how to manuever around it.
Don't spout the inevitable "you can't dodge a HO", because I do it every single freaking sortie, and usually 3 or 4 times in each sortie.
-SW
Yep most times is avoidable.
Others not :)
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HO's are mutual. If you get in a HO, you accepted it and went for it too.
The "I get tired of people who only HO, so let's eliminate HO's" philosophy really is nothing more than "I get tired of people not flying the way I want them to fly so let's force them to only fly the way I want them to." I get sick of people who take fast planes (P-51D, 109G-10 for example) and cherry pick a furball from their high alt perch. However, that's how they wanna fly, and they are more than welcome to do so. I don't have to like it, but I don't have any right to make them stop (other than getting above them and shooting 'em down! :D)
I think the stall limiter is a good idea, but... let's say you get a brand new guy. Stall limiter keeps him in the air so he can die and get a few kills. He's happy. He subscribes after his 2 weeks. He gets 2 weeks of playing with stall limiter (assuming the 30 day thing) and poof! it's gone and he's stalling out his plane all over the place. This doesn't sound all that appealing to me, but maybe I'm missing something. *shrug*
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Well, let me put it this way-> unless I'm intentionally going for the HO, it don't effect me. I just manuever around them, go vertical and drop on their 6.
-SW
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Originally posted by lord dolf vader
dude you beter specify massivly multi player cause except for that il2 beats um on all counts . and every thread dosent get attacked as a whine by the chearleaders.
That's only because all 12 of you hold hands and sing showtunes...in a real sim, there is friction and a diversity of opinion...can't stand the heat, then get out of the kitchen young lady!
If IL2 were so great, why do you feel the need to come here and lip off?
Wannabe's....I tell ya.:)
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Originally posted by Ghosth
The single essential point you are all missing from what I've been able to get out of this grossly overblown thread. The training wheels come off at the 30day mark and can't be put back on again!
Besides you don't even know if it will be enabled in the MA.
Hitech is working hard to make some improvments to keep from loseing half of those who try AH. Only to discover they can't do it and quit in frustration. Not only will they not return they'll tell everyone they know how impossible AH is to fly.
The Training mentor program, this stall limiter, are both aimed at the same problem. Getting people in the air and getting them hooked that first day.
Currently we're loseing half of all people who try AH for the first time. And we're loseing them in the first hour.
Relax folks, HT knows better than to mess up the main! Gee you guys are WAY too tense, take a chill pill.
I'de like to meet you someday...the voice of reason:)
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Originally posted by AKSWulfe
Well, let me put it this way-> unless I'm intentionally going for the HO, it don't effect me. I just manuever around them, go vertical and drop on their 6.
-SW
Hehehe SW, I can tell you of some issues of HOs happening even when they were not wanted by neither of the two planes involved. For instance, when you're turning towards a target and you find another plane coming directly to you...and he is as surprised to see you as you are in seeing him :D.
Anyway, I guess it all depends on what you call a HO. For me if one of the two planes is going for the HO, it already is one. I mean ,I can try to avoid it, but even while doing so I give a much harder front-quarter-shot target, I still depend on not being hit by the enemy to go on.
Said that, don't worry, Is a long time ago since I got over it, and now I do HOs now and then in the MA (in 190A8 hehehe)
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LOL Hortland, I have been there and done that.
Way back when, during the beta testing period the major question asked by any new player was "How do you take off?". By version 1.09 standards it was easily 5 to 10 times more difficult.
Funny thibg was that there were some who whined when HTC changed it to the "New Easy Take-Off Mode".
How easy really is it or was it, no clue here... :)
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remind me of the Combat trim discution ...
but we doesn't have preemptive "I quit" post yet ... so it's quite as fun as CT discution :D
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IMO....
1. It would be a one month option for the main arena for new people.
2. Given for the training arena..would be a must :)
3. Maybe a new small arena maybe 50-100 slots for just greenhorns.. This would losen some room for the MA and make the arena a bit more enjoying
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Originally posted by AKSWulfe
People are forever complaining about HOs... how about instead of trying to lobby to prevent people from doing it, you instead learn how to manuever around it.
Don't spout the inevitable "you can't dodge a HO", because I do it every single freaking sortie, and usually 3 or 4 times in each sortie.
-SW
I've got no problem avoiding jousts at all. That doesn't, however, negate the degree to which they trivialize the game. A thousand idjits jousting are still a thousand idjits jousting...the yawning can be heard several servers over in EQ.
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Who cares about the stall limiter?
Unless i read it wrong, the flight model doesnt change at all. All the limited does is restrict the elevator's movement, so that you can't ride the stall at all. Those who use it won't spin out as easily, but those who don't use it will be able to turn quite a lot faster. As long as it can't be turned on/off in flight, there is no advantage to using it unless you can't fly.
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Originally posted by AKSWulfe
People are forever complaining about HOs... how about instead of trying to lobby to prevent people from doing it, you instead learn how to manuever around it.
Don't spout the inevitable "you can't dodge a HO", because I do it every single freaking sortie, and usually 3 or 4 times in each sortie.
-SW
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In my opinion the more common HOs are very easily avoided. The flite path for the two planes would be around 180 degrees to one another or hedon.
:mad: --> <-- :mad:
The less common HO however is more difficult to avoid. Thats when two planes are in a turn fight either verticle or horizontal. They turn, turn near black out recover and try to gain gun angles while meeting almost everytime at the front quarter of their planes. Then POW they hit head on eventually. Thats a real legitimate HO in some cases and difficult to avoid unless one plane breaks from the turn fight which often means death as well unless he can run.
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Hmmm... Since I started this thread, I'd like to make several comments.
For the most important one, I believe that HTC is willing and is listening to input from the users of this community. For example, I invited a comment from HTC by starting this thread and I got just that in the form of the announcement in the news section.
It is also the strategy of HTC to invite comments from users when they have a release. For example, when the trees were initially placed on the terrain, they were so close to the runway, the auto-take off feature was negated because bombers like Lancaster could not clear the trees. While HTC could have tested on their own, they opt to see how it turned out with the release. It was up to us the user community to feedback such an issue.
For this reason, I cannot see why some people want to dismiss concerns as a whine and why they cannot see it as a topic of discussion. The concept was released in the form of the webpage, and is a subject of concern.
On the subject of Stall limiter, in my opinion, I do not think we need it in the MA. The reason is that, when I started Air Warrior, I started of course in the Newbie Arena which was even some what relax compared to the Relaxed Realism Arena. After accumulating some points, the system takes your ammo away thereby graduating you to the main arenas. I like this kind of idea.
On the subject of HOs, please start another thread.
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Originally posted by FDutchmn
On the subject of HOs, please start another thread.
Ahh..now I understand..since you started this thread, you get to tell people what they can discuss in your thread?
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Originally posted by Hortlund
Ahh..now I understand..since you started this thread, you get to tell people what they can discuss in your thread?
Well hortlund, this is a common rule of politeness in public forums.Its called "Staying on topic" :)
I think Fdutchmann is quite right in asking for the HO discussion to be done in another thread :)
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Originally posted by Hortlund
Ahh..now I understand..since you started this thread, you get to tell people what they can discuss in your thread?
no, it goes both ways... if you want this subject to have closer scrutiny, it should be addressed as so. that is all. If you want closer discussion on HO, it should be placed on another thread, so it can get the attention that it is due. Please don't read any further than that, cuz I don't mean it the way you stated. Please excuse me if I was misleading.
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Nah, it just made me wonder that's all.
I guess I can be one of those thread hijackers, but I never though anyone felt that it was rude or inpolite. My experience is that if a topic is interesting enough, ppl will stay on topic. Or the thread will have several mini-discussions inside it. I have always thought this was normal BB-behavior. People will talk about stuff, someone will try to be funny, someone will drift off topic. I just never thought there was anyting wrong with that.
(and behold, my entire post here is definitively off topic in this thread)
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Maybe a stupid question but;
Who asked for a stall limiter feature?????
I can't remember reading much complaints about the current stall models, neither on people having allot of problems flying the planes.
I guess the people that do have a problem with flying the 'tough' planes, fly N1K2 (which gently tips nose down at 0 mph)
I'm confused
:eek:
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Originally posted by Hortlund
People will talk about stuff, someone will try to be funny, someone will drift off topic. I just never thought there was anyting wrong with that.
(and behold, my entire post here is definitively off topic in this thread)
Hortlund, hortlund, hortlund... there is nothing wrong with this. The topic of HO is hot issue and DESERVES a thread of itself.
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Originally posted by Apar
Who asked for a stall limiter feature?????
Apar, quite frankly, no one. HTC thought that it would be a good addition to what we already have to help the newbies. Currently, we are saying opinions on how it can be implemented. The way I see it, HTC has an idea on how but it isn't final yet. We are just saying how we feel about it... maybe a whine...
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Apar I think that's it's to lower the learning curve.
Have you ever seen a newbie crash ten time in the tower just to stall at the 11th try ? (even in Zeke)
It's fun to see ... but not for him :)
For me it just like the little wheel we add to the children's bike :
(http://www.decathlon.com/product/200/280909S.jpg)
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I understand.
Personally I liked the steep learning curve when I switched to AH. Yes, it was a frustration sometimes (especially learning to deal with snap-rolls) but the steep learning curve is something that made AH big (IMHO) and separates it from other combat flight sims. E.g. it took me absolutely no problem to adapt to FA, EAW, etc flight models. AH was the first Combat Flight Sim which required me to practice allot.
Personally I think that using a stall limit feature will give a false impression of the planes performance limits. The sooner one is introduced to it and learns to handle the plane's limits, the better pilot he/she will become.
I have much more faith in a good training program setup in AH than adding 'easy modes' to the flight models. I put easy mode in brackets because it is disputable whether it will give an edge/or not.