Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Load on July 01, 2002, 02:53:12 AM
-
Yeah, I know the answer...just to sink the spreaders.....is that all??
Mmmm...... I think % hit doesnt has to do with skills and it makes some pilots droping at low ranks. If you take %hit away from stats computing..some guys could go from 200th to top 30.
If you can have a K/S of 2.0 and %hit of 5% (which is very poor) something tells us that %hit nothing has to do with skills. We could add % of wasted wasted at stats, It would be the same. It doesnt make sense to me. Some people use a lot of deflection shots (very difficult to make) and % gets lower. some guys have poor conection and % hit drops dramatically.
Take %Hit away from stats!!!!
-
Sounds to me like some rank-obsessed player has crappy aim.
-- Todd/Leviathn
-
Hahahaha:
It is sugar to flies. I knew some1 like you would post this. Save your work man. You are the first fly coming to my question.
-
Load, you may be right cause the % hit increases enormously with vulch sessions or attacking buffs, but, at the same time decreases rapidly using spray'n pray tactics.
What is better, to keep fighting til the end of fuel, so getting more kills per sortie and more kills per time, or returning to your base increasing your K/D ratio but penalizing enormously your K/T statistic?
-
Not all planes have same accuracy of their guns. 109, for example, can hit much further away than 190, compensating for its poor punch.
Hit % is a can of worms, you have RoF, v0, placement of guns, convergence issues, bullet drop - all lumped into one number. And pilot skill, of course.
If one flies c.202 with nose guns only. In those rare ocassions he bounces someone and stays on his six, firing. He will have quite a hit %.
OTOH, you have a guy in 190A-8, having to stick to snapshots. Most of rounds fired miss, he has to put a bullet stream for enemy to fly into. Even with practice, a lot of rounds are wasted.
As for shooting goes, you'd agree that hit % has little to do with what actually goes on in the air.
One of the prime example was Torque. You'd all agree his shooting was amazing. Yet, he always had what, 3-5 % !
-
MANDOBLE and Hristo, thx for your post.
Yep, you are right, K/D and K/T could be sometimes a paradox. I would also erase K/T from scores. Best pilots have a good K/S and even a good K/D.
%Hit doesnt has to do with SKILL!!!. Stat system could also count % you make a sortie full on fuel hehe. A high deflectionshot is 1.000 more difficult than a 6 aspect 300 yds shot. First will decrease your % hit. Secon will raise it....lol. No sense!!
-
Originally posted by Hristo
One of the prime example was Torque. You'd all agree his shooting was amazing. Yet, he always had what, 3-5 % !
He was good ... and his 3-5% was enuff thank to his 4x20mm Hispanos.
-
Originally posted by Load
Stat system could also count % you make a sortie full on fuel hehe.
That should be a mandatory stat, no more 25% dweebs :D
-
Gatt, he flew an F4U, not really a turnfighter. How would he do if he fired only when saddled up ?
Instead, his flying was all snapshots. And with snapshots you are lucky if 1/10 rounds hit.
Why else BnZ birds have many guns ?
-
Hristo, snapshots in 190 or F4U may be quite accurate if you dont use the sight, instead of that u set your head some inches higher to have a more clear vision below your aircraft nose. It will not be as effective as a clean shot but will let you to keep easily a 10% or more of hit % firing at ranges below 350 yards at even extreme angles.
-
% hits doesn't tell us anything. It has nothing to do with how good a shot you are unless hitting the broad side of a barn is considered being a good shot. It is the most easily gamed stat. K/T is the least easily gamed and combined with K/D and K/S might give some kind if indication of skill. Without K/T, a very cautious person could get a very hoigh rank without ever actually fighting anyone who wasn't at the refrigerator or the can.
lazs
-
Saddly, K/T is also the best indicator of vulch parties too, or furball mess, or base defense in a 25% fuel loaded SpitV against lo cons comming from a CV.
All the stats are questionable. But, the most representative of real live are just K/S and K/D.
-
I once saw a "contest" at my granddaughters kindergarten class. All the children got an award for something (understandably). It reminded me of the AH scoring system.
Having 10 happy guys. And 2990 unhappy ones, is probably, not very profitable.
-
This brings a question to my mind that I had lst night while busting towns. I know that if I am fighting PT boats my Accuracy % jumps off the charts.
Doesnt seem to do so with respect to GV's And obviously not with buildings. How are these rounds scored? Do they take away from accuracy, or are they simply not counted?
Just curious cause Im a Score potato and I want to exploit the system
-
The only thing that determines if you are good in this game is you. I don't need someone or some score system to tell me that I suck. I know I do. That is one of the reasons I keep coming back. I want to improve. Who cares about hit %, K/D, K/S, or K/T? It is all meaningless anyways. The real important thing is to have fun. Though I suppose having some computer scoring system telling you that you are the #1 pilot in a game might be some people's idea of fun.
-
K/D and K/S are the two most meaningless stats in terms of telling who is a "good" pilot. Hit% doesn't mean a whole lot either, and neither does K/T.
Bottom line: Scores are no indication of skill whatsoever.
J_A_B
-
Also remember the next equation ==> - ping = + % hits
-
Originally posted by Load
It is sugar to flies. I knew some1 like you would post this. Save your work man. You are the first fly coming to my question.
Took me 5 seconds to type that. No work at all. How's that aim coming along?
-- Todd/Leviathn
-
Originally posted by Load
Yeah, I know the answer...just to sink the spreaders.....is that all??
Mmmm...... I think % hit doesnt has to do with skills and it makes some pilots droping at low ranks. If you take %hit away from stats computing..some guys could go from 200th to top 30.
If you can have a K/S of 2.0 and %hit of 5% (which is very poor) something tells us that %hit nothing has to do with skills. We could add % of wasted wasted at stats, It would be the same. It doesnt make sense to me. Some people use a lot of deflection shots (very difficult to make) and % gets lower. some guys have poor conection and % hit drops dramatically.
Take %Hit away from stats!!!!
stats aren't an indicator of skill either so might as well do away with the whole thing.
Ack-Ack
479th FG - Riddle's Raiders
-
Scoring system has little or nothing to do with how good are you, but it is a way to keep track of your achievements.
For example, in my case, detailed score page is a jewel to keep track of how many La7 and Spit heads have I hung in the trophy wall, everything else is secondary :D
-
Stats ??? We have Stats ?
Points ??? We have points ?
I have never paid attention to ranking, Stats or Points. Neither in AH or AW... Really most of the ranking boils down to how much time you spend in each phase of AH combat... ie; Fighters, Attack, Bombers, Vehicles, Base capture etc. If you do well across the board in all phases you get a really good rank. If you tend to stay in one area, ie; Fighters you can rank high in Fighters but low in overall rank...
I am more of the fight till you die tribe ;)
-
For a lot of players, hit % is driven down by straffing fixed ground targets while in fighter mode.
eskimo
-
Originally posted by MANDOBLE
Scoring system has little or nothing to do with how good are you, but it is a way to keep track of your achievements.
Mandoble hit this one right on the head. Things like K/S, K/D, K/T, and hit percentage are only valuable when comparing you to yourself. Only you know how you fly, how aggressively you engage, how often you vulch, etc. In that sense, all of these stats are valuable for tracking one's progress over time given the same sort of flying style.
The problem when comparing any of them to one another is that every person flies a little differently. Some fly more aggressively than others. Some vulch more. Some prefer to fly to live, and others prefer to fight until they die. It's impossible to measure "skill" between different players with such disparate flying styles by going on stats alone. In that sense rank is meaningless.
So why keep hit percentage? Because it's a valuable measure for yourself in tracking improvement over time. As it relates to rank... who cares? Rank can be "gamed" on any of the categories anyway.
-- Todd/Leviathn
-
Originally posted by Dead Man Flying
Mandoble hit this one right on the head. Things like K/S, K/D, K/T, and hit percentage are only valuable when comparing you to yourself. Only you know how you fly, how aggressively you engage, how often you vulch, etc. In that sense, all of these stats are valuable for tracking one's progress over time given the same sort of flying style.
The problem when comparing any of them to one another is that every person flies a little differently. Some fly more aggressively than others. Some vulch more. Some prefer to fly to live, and others prefer to fight until they die. It's impossible to measure "skill" between different players with such disparate flying styles by going on stats alone. In that sense rank is meaningless.
So why keep hit percentage? Because it's a valuable measure for yourself in tracking improvement over time. As it relates to rank... who cares? Rank can be "gamed" on any of the categories anyway.
-- Todd/Leviathn
Very well said!
Probably the best summary of the value of stats I've read.
eskimo
-
I think the theory behind gunnery % affecting score is based on a couple of things:
1. In some aircraft, it is much easier to score kills if you don't care about conserving ammunition and you 'lay on the trigger' for every low % gun solution you get.
2. It is a sign of a high degree of gunnery skill when you can fire a (short) burst of gunfire and a very high % of your fired rounds impact an aerial target that is not flying in a straight line. One of the best feelings for me in AH is when I fire on a tough snapshot, and I am actually sweating the timing, and the first rounds of the burst hit the nose of the target and the last rounds of the burst finish somewhere along the fuselage.
Having said that - what everyone else said in this thread is basically true. lazs is right - gunnery % is very easily 'manipulated'. Score categories are used by most (including me) as a way of tracking various trends in AH as performed by the tracker.
I think the reason for gunnery % affecting score a little may be an attempt at a deterrent - a way of assigning a little negative feedback for the person who would 'empty the clip' at 999 yds. in hopes of landing 1 or 2 'magic bullets'.
I don't know if it 'works' or not. The tough thing about it is that sometimes you would be flying 'smart' and/or 'realistically' to burn your ammunition on a shot at 999 yds. - 4 miles from the English channel, your buddy is in a P-51D and a Bf 109 is in gun range. You are going to blow thru and keep screaming for England. Your buddy is starting to dive for safety. I'd fire at very long range - scare off the Bf 109 or keep him distracted for the couple of seconds it takes your buddy to make his diving escape...
What I'd be interested to know is if there was fewer rounds fired per sortie in AH since they instituted the gunnery % affecting the score.
A good way to look at it is this - take a good gunner. Put him in the F4U-1D. Barring vulching, killing PT boats, all kills scored are bounces vs. unsuspecting targets, etc. - if he burned all his .50 BMG ammunition for 4 kills on sortie #1, and burned all his .50 BMG ammunition for 11 kills on sortie #2 - *theoretically* he was working harder for each kill on sortie #2. He was putting more work into setting up higher % gun solutions, he was 'sweating the timing' more on snapshots, etc.
But I agree with another post - the main use of scoring categories is for you tracking you in various different ways.
It would be damn interesting to see what happened to K/T, K/D, and K/S if all kills vs. targets spawned for less than 3 minutes or so were disallowed (with regards to stats), wouldn't it? When I first started playing AH I was surprised a few times at how someone ranked so high in the fighter category could be such a pushover in a real contest of maneuver and gunnery.
Mike/wulfie
-
Nice posts. I even agree with last Dead Famous flying´s post...which is a nice point of view.
Now I feel better to see that %hit doesnt has to do with skills. Even as Dead Flying said....Any stat has to do with skills. I knew he had some better to offer than acussing me of "score fanatic".
Sorry for the flies thing, Dead FF. That greed makes me die a lot in MA .
-
Originally posted by Hristo
Not all planes have same accuracy of their guns. 109, for example, can hit much further away than 190, compensating for its poor punch.
Hristo, why do you say that? I'm not really arguing [don't know enough about the subject to argue] but in Aces High, my experience has been exactly the opposite! For me, the d9 has been fairly reliable out to 400-450 yards while the 109 guns (for me!) are not.
Finally, assuming you are correct, was that true in "real life" or are you talking about Aces High planes?
curly
-
The 109s guns have poor range in my opinion a true test of discipline to make it connect. The 190A8s guns R way undermodeled. While at the same time I'm tired of spitfires literally flying cicles around me again and again. Today I battled a sticky spit that flew three circles around my roll axis then shot me down. That was a total joke.
True story...
-
I am more of the fight till you die tribe
Diatribe? :)
-
My experience is that I can hit at further ranges in 109 than in 190. Of course the 190 can saturate air with shells and you might get the kill, but usually I consider 109 more accurate.
109 has more clearance below the center of crosshair, even if you elevate head position in the 190. This means you can still see a target which would be obstructed by the nose in 190.
Usually, I manage to nail 350-450 yds snapshots more easily in 109. I even compared 109G-6 with MG152/20 to 190A-8 with 2 MG151/20s. Simply, I did much better in 109 considering snapshots. I never felt that I was missing one cannon. My convergence was always 350 yds.
I'd attribute this to the following:
- higher RoF
- no convergence issues
- more room below the crosshair center
- very close placement of guns, all hitting the same spot
OTOH, wing cannons in 109 never helped me much.
While flying the 109, my hit % was 12-15% most of the time. And I rarely vulched, 109 was not well suited for it.
In 190 I was happy when it was 7-8%, with quite a lot of vulching in that score.
In both cases I almost never attacked anything else but airplanes - no tanks, hangers or such.
-
I only care for my kill ratio
because i'm a bad gunner that will never change
i also got to many assists
i even shreck up at very close
:)
-
I have a very different feeling between 190s.
With 190A5 (firing 4 guns) or D9 (firing all guns and MGs) a 11% is easily achieved. On the other hand, with 190A8 I rarely go higher than 9% firing only 4x20 or 2x20+2x30.
With 109 is not easier to hit, but when you hit you usually hit with most of your burst bullets.
What is clear is that different planes have different innate hit %, as an example we have the Yak9U seconded by P38, far easier to hit with them than with any single gunned 109.
-
:confused:
With 190A5 (firing 4 guns) or D9 (firing all guns and MGs) a 11% is easily achieved. On the other hand, with 190A8 I rarely go higher than 9% firing only 4x20 or 2x20+2x30.
How can you know hit% by planemodel? :confused:
-
wulfie.. u are correct to a point but... 5 kills in a sortie in a hog can mean five difficult fights where you only get high percentage snap shots after a lot of work and the 11 kill sortie can mean (and often does) that you are killing guys taht are assleep or haven't gotten their wheels off the ground yet. In short... I have worked one hell of a lot harder for 3 kills and come home with an empty clip than I have on 9 kill sorties. Course.... with fifties, I may have 5 assists in that 3 kill sortie.
I also would point out that if you have a cannon bird with a short clip you will tend to have a higher percentage since you will wait till you saddle up so as to not waste all your ammo and have to go home or ditch.
I agree tho, and have allways said, that the stats are great tools for the individual to use for his own personal use as a guide or to check progress but only the individual knows what is important to him... I find K/T very important as it indicates how quickly I am finding fights. To me.... those with low K/T are simply flying low risk.
If the "rank" is a vehicle for determining behavior then I think K/T is very important and needs to be weighed into the equation... I don't think that hiding from the fights should be rewarded.
also... If hit percentage is such a good indication of "skill" how then do you explain..... drex?
lazs
-
Originally posted by mipoikel
How can you know hit% by planemodel? :confused:
These are my experiences with different 190 models after extensive use of them not using the sight at all in any of them, using the sight my % drops a lot.
-
Stats are good ways for us to track whatever we're interested in the most, but as many have pointed out, they can be gamed considerably depending on what we want to achieve.
In real combat, the main stat is did we win or lose? Live or die? Achieve the mission objective or not? Some of the fine category stats might be useful training aids, but purely supplements to the main scorecard.
As the circus maxim says, we're only as good as our last performance -- the total record contributes to our reputations, but the most important contest is the next one.
I like the stats as another bonus of Aces High, made possible only in computer cyberwar. Sometimes I like to see how well I can do in one category or another, but the most fun I have is to try lots of different stuff in different vehicles and ignore the stats.
Of course then someone points out that it not realistic to just fight and have fun till you cyber die, but that's another thread.
-
lazs the F4U comparison was a strictly hypothetical example. I was trying to explain what I thought the reasoning was behind having hit % affect score. For certain there are many possible scenarios outside what I mentioned.
I never said that hit % alone is a good indication of 'skill'. There are lots of guys who 'fly' AH who have great eyes for 'tough shots' but don't have a high gunnery %.
I guess the best way to put it is this - a good shot like drex has a lower hit % because he's not trying to have a high hit %. He's firing an extra 25%+ ammunition per burst to 'make sure' he lands fatal hits. He's good at lining up tough deflections, and by firing early and adjusting fire he's making sure he'll get some fatal hits.
My gunnery % is usually much lower in scenarios/historical events/etc. than it is in the MA. The reason for this is that in the MA I am 'training' all the time in terms of gunnery - I try to set up a shot 'correctly' (from my point of view) almost every time before I take it. I try to make it so every round of every burst lands on target. Doing these things in the MA helps me practice at making tough deflection shots. But in a 'serious' event I 'take off the training blinders' and 'fire with reckless abandon'.
Another thing to look at with drex - what is he flying? Almost always an aircraft that carries .50 MGs in the wings as of late. This is always going to give you a lower gunnery % than if you were flying the P-38 for example. You have seen the most of drex up close and personal when he's been flying in your squadron - and shooting wing mounted .50 MGs alot. I saw him the most up close and personal when he was flying Bf 109s. While I never really tracked his gunnery % (if he shoots down what he's shooting at why bother), I gurantee it was higher in Bf 109s than it was in F4Us and P-47s.
I think your hit % is always going to be lower in .50 MG armed aircraft (regardless of gun location) because you can attempt deflection shots with a .50 MG that you would never bother attempting with some other weapons.
For me - if I don't try to miss with as few rounds as possible, it is *way* easier for me to score kills. My K/D, K/T, and K/S all go way up if I'm not doing the whole 'aim - aim - aim - short burst - watch burst - adjust - aim - aim - short burst - etc.' routine. But I 'punish' myself with that routine so when I'm in a serious event, or a squadron duel (where I constantly have to bail drex's overrated bellybutton out of the fire, if memory serves) it's 'easier' (for lack of a better term or description) for me to shoot guys down. Fewer self imposed restrictions like minimum aim time, no 'putting up a wall of lead' for the bad guy to fly thru, etc.
In short - think of the hit % affect on score as intended for the 'lowest common denominator' - an attempt to keep a guy with 1700 rounds per gun x 8 .50 MGs on a P-47 from emptying his barrels on an enemy at 950 yards every time to get a kill.
At least that's what I think the reasoning may have been. I'm not saying it always works, or that it works at all. But like I said before it would be interesting to see if there has been a change in rounds fired/sortie, etc. since they made gunnery % affect your score.
Mike/wulfie
p.s. The K/T scenario can get just as complicated. When I'm 25,000' above you earning 1/100 of a beer for every B-17 and/or Lancaster III I shoot down, I get in 1 fight every 30 minutes. But it's me vs. 2 bombers and 2-4 fighters. So my K/T is going to be low - but it's never a case of what you are talking about - 'cherry picking' the edge of a big fight (which happens for sure). The only way to make score indicative of real skill (and we both agree on what 'real skill' means in AH from what I've seen, winning when you start at a disadvantage, etc.) would be to make the data collected for scoring prohibitively detailed - # of enemy vs. # of friendly aircraft within 3000 yds. of you at time of kill, etc., etc., etc.
-
If they ever put gun reliability in the game it will be imediatly apparent why shooting accuracy is a stat. What could be more fundimental. Your job is to hit other planes with your rounds..how often are you successful. Can it be gamed..yes. But it is only one of many stats used to establish the fighter ranking. Once a tour. take advantage of an opertunity to kill a goon with the cowl guns only..(especially the 7.92mm)
The best example of gaming accuracy I have seen was not in regards to fighters but bombers. I noticed the top bomber pilot had increadible accuracy.(this was probably 18months ago) and yet had shot only one plane down...I looked at his stats carefully and deduced that he was not defending himself. The loss of score to decreasing accuracy was more severe then the loss of score to getting shot down as kill to death was not used as a bomber stat but accuracy was....
-
%H, K/D, K/S, K/T, and whatever you want to include here.
Lets suppose a player fight two single vulch sorties, 30 mins each, as a result he has 24 kills, 12/1 K/D, 24 K/T, 12 K/S 30%Hit and few points. He we be the number one in all categories except points where he will be even the last one. That one has a lot of chances of being between the 20 first AH pilots in fighter score. If process is repeated for attack, bomb and GV with a pair of field captures he will be, probably, between 20 first overal AH pilots.
-
Originally posted by MANDOBLE
%H, K/D, K/S, K/T, and whatever you want to include here.
Lets suppose a player fight two single vulch sorties, 30 mins each, as a result he has 24 kills, 12/1 K/D, 24 K/T, 12 K/S 30%Hit and few points. He we be the number one in all categories except points where he will be even the last one. That one has a lot of chances of being between the 20 first AH pilots in fighter score. If process is repeated for attack, bomb and GV with a pair of field captures he will be, probably, between 20 first overal AH pilots.
Some real numbers...
Lately, I have been flying almost exclusively in the CT. In Tour 28 one night, the CT was dead and a squadmate wanted us to go into the MA. I was the first in and did a quick PT sortie while the others logged in. My squad was going to hit a base in Tiffies. I launched a Chog from a closer CV to de-ack the base for them. When I got there, I found the base had already been de-acked and the Fighter hangers and VH were down. I had a 10 kill buff vulch and died (in attack mode). I then realized that I had 1 GV and 1 attack sortie for that tour, so I switched to fighter mode and re-launched. I had a combination air-to-air and vulch sortie in fighter mode that I landed (hot, with cons all over... hehe). I was about to log, but thought that I should round out the night with a bomber milk-run sortie. I was curious how I would end up ranking overall with only one sortie per category. That was the only night that I flew in the MA in tour 28. Just under 20 minutes of flight time. Overall rank 478.
Tour 28: Fighter
[Flew and landed 1 vulch sortie that Tour, 7 min 58 seconds.)
(Kills / Deaths + 1) 8.0000 (6)
(Kills / Sorties ) 8.0000 (1)
(Kills / Hour) 60.12 (1)
(Hit percentage) 19.75 % (20)
(Points) 3618.5113 (1665)
Fighter rank: 150
eskimo