Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: K West on July 01, 2002, 08:10:32 AM
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Other than the oil coolers are in the wing-fuselage edge the planes on the F8F these two planes are almost identical from the cockpit forward. Same exhaust outlet design on both sides of the fornt fuselage after the cow and same cowl vents on the upper half of the cowl too. The fuselage is round with the cowl. Not like the 190 which has an almost triangular fuselage mating a round.
This is just to show how the finished result doesn't look at al like the 190 because the underlying engineering isn't either. Yet the strong Grumman family rememblance with the F6F and F4F leaves no doubt (imo anyway).
(http://www.townisp.com/~jugdriver/bearcathellcat.jpg)
Westy
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Where'd ya get that 190 & Hellcat photo ? ;)
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hum ...
I prefer the blue one :)
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Its just further evidence of the genius of Kurt Tank.
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Yep the F8F is indeed an Fw190 done by Grumman engineers. It sure doesnt look much different than Hellcat, just sized like FW190, just with nearly identical wingspan of FW190, just like nearly identical weight of FW190, just with nearly identical length of FW190, with nearly identical proprortions to FW190, the only significant difference is more wing area.
Im staring to love how pissed you guys are of this FW190/F8F thing, plus I also wanna remind you who got this country into space and on the moon. Germans! :D
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The 190 is a much better plane in my opinion, but the german gunns suck ! To low muzzel velocity for my taste, or the 50 cals on american planes have a to high velocity. I have fired the 50 cals many times, and it is an excellent weapon and is prolly modelled correctly. :)
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Im staring to love how pissed you guys are of this FW190/F8F thing
Who's pissed :confused:
plus I also wanna remind you who got this country into space and on the moon. Germans!
Was the use of German rocket research in the US space effort a point of contention? Interesting "clash of civilisations" theme you seem to have developed. How did a very specific debate over the relationship of two aircraft give birth to your general "You Americans" statements?
First it was engine placement. Then it was Post-hoc "Grumman engineers liked the 190 and then, after flying the 190 developed the F8F. Now its demensional simlilarities.
I'm convinced that flying the 190 had an impact on the Grumman Engineers. I'm convinced that they would be foolish to ignore what they had seen in that Aircraft. But I think it's going a bit far to say that the F8F is "a 190 done by Grumman Engineers."
-Sikboy
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The oil cooler in the wings trick was stolen from the F4U.
Rex Beisel invented Kurt Tank!!:p
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lol. good replies :)
and this "Im staring to love how pissed you guys are of this FW190/F8F thing," was the best. I'm debatiung and discussing. Trust me when I say I'm not pissed nor getting heated at all.
Westy
(damned Germans (especially Von Braun) stole all of Goddards theories and works! :D )
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I would also like to point out that Grumman sounds similar to German, and that probably had further demonstrates the connection between these two planes. ;)
-Sikboy
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Looks like a 190?? MUAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!
Hungarian scientist working in England, Leo Szilard, first theorized that enormous amounts of energy could be released by a nuclear "chain reaction"
German scientists Otto Hahn, Fritz Strassmann, Lise Meitner, and Otto Frisch discovered nuclear fission in uranium, the heaviest natural element.
Eugene Wigner and Edward Teller, persuaded Albert Einstein, the world's most famous scientist, to write a letter to President Franklin D. Roosevelt. Dated August 2, 1939, the letter said that it was conceivable that "extremely powerful bombs of a new type might be constructed.
In June 1942, the army took over the task of organizing all chain-reaction research into a full-blown bomb program, code-named the Manhattan Engineer District. Gen. Leslie R. Groves, the man who had just built the Pentagon, was in charge of the top-secret project.
Enrico Fermi, a Nobel Prize-winning emigre from Italy, presided over the first self-sustaining manmade nuclear chain reaction, which took place December 2, 1942
The Manhatten Project, at its peak, involved about 160,000 people workin on the project in more than 25 sites across the United States.
.....The Germans did it all by themselves :D
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Im staring to love how pissed you guys are of this FW190/F8F thing, plus I also wanna remind you who got this country into space and on the moon. Germans!
Yeah. While Hitler's minions were busy developing the most expensive way to inaccurately lob a 2000 lb warhead at an area target, we were working on a little thing called the Manhattan project. I suppose rocketry was just a little too hard for the allies to get a handle on at the time.
Charon
TUMOR - what a comprable achievement [edited after a clear reading of your post] :)
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
I also wanna remind you who got this country into space and on the moon. Germans! :D
Oh yeah, BTW..thanks for starting WW2 Europe for us also...Since you're so good at patting yourself on the back. :D
What's next? Giving yourself credit for letting us win the war, also? :eek: Don't get mad, it's a July 4 kind of flameout! Have a good / safe one, everybody!
Gainsie
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I think the Wildcat and Hellcat look more similar but all the Cat's look alike except the Tigercat 2 engine fighter.
Look at F4F and F6F:
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Thanks Westy!
I needed a new wallpaper :)
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You're welcome. I have two cdroms full of imagines and pictures of WWII aricraft that I burned. Artwork as well as photos from all across the net. And from all nationalities and theatres.
And to continue the debate :) Here's a comparison of 3-views side by side....
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West, can you please label those images, I can't tell which is the real FW and which is the copy...they look so much alike! :D
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The guy in the Bearcat looks really comfortable.
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I'm baffeled! They are identical! Kurt Tank rules! Kurt Tank designed all U.S. Navy Aircraft
He probably secretly designed the f4u before the war: If u reverse the digit it almost becomes a "k" - Ergo "For KUrt tank"
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Looks more like a yank knockoff of the n1k2 than it does a 190 . Which one of those planes was giving the USN's f6f the most trouble anyway ?
Kwest do you have a drawing of a n1k2 for comparison ?
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GRUNHEERZ:
Im staring to love how pissed you guys are of this FW190/F8F thing, plus I also wanna remind you who got this country into space and on the moon. Germans!
Yup, Von Braun was THE leading pioneer in the rocket sciences for that era. But look what Germany did with it. If those V-2's hitting London were aimed at space and the moon, I'd say he did a piss poor job, wouldn't you?
This little debate is getting far fetched. Yes, scientists born in Germany did contribute greatly to the US space program. But notice the Germans didn't get it done for GERMANY. It took US backing to get the thing completed.
I'm just waiting for someone to point out the Wright brothers and all aircraft since then are based on their work.................
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Originally posted by bigUC
I'm baffeled! They are identical! Kurt Tank rules! Kurt Tank designed all U.S. Navy Aircraft
He probably secretly designed the f4u before the war: If u reverse the digit it almost becomes a "k" - Ergo "For KUrt tank"
....wiseass...I am sitting here rolling off my chair laughinh, in my office at that picture...secretary wondering what the hell is wrong with me...LOL
It's like listening to every 60 year old redhead trying to say she looks like Racquel Welch!
,,,and yes...wayyyyyyy off topic here, screw it, its 110 in Minnesota today,
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lol guys. Always nicer to have a good discussion when humour is tossed in :)
As for the N1K2? Not even close. Completely different in just about all aspects. (to save this topic from getting too "heavy" to pull up and read here's the 3-view link)
http://www.combinedfleet.com/ijna/n1k2-j.gif
Westy
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The very tight cowl work in the 190 was revolutionary wasnt it...
I think that is what the US engineers were impressed with and adopted for the F8f..that and the small size. Befor the 190 I think that it was just accepted that the cowl of a radial engine had to be very drag inducing..
The guy that designed the 51 visited the Messerschmidt plant too. All he took away was a new appreciation about how tight the cowl of an inline engine could be.. compare the cowl of a 109e or F to a P40... and then the P51a.
The 190 was quite a revolutionary plane in 1940. That its charecteristics became so common does not change the origin of the concept. The F8F definatly benifited from the 190.
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Uhm they both got propellors
And radial engines
both got one seat
both have aircooled engines
both fly on wings
both are fighters
but one is superiour
and its not german
:rolleyes:
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after flying a captured P51 the germans decided to upgrade their outdated FW190 by installing a inline eng resulting in the FW190-D9 and the 152
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Why in the world would the U.S. copy the FW-190? Lets be realistic here, the 190 was not spectacular in any category. It was even prone to high speed stalls. The only thing the Fw-190 and the F8F share in common is a large engine mated to a light airframe. I'm sure there is tons of evidence and data to show that the F8F was built from combat experience in the Pacific. In fact, I am going to dig some up. There is not more than a shred of evidence to prove the F8F was directly descendant from the FW-190.
Data, research, and evidence- what seperates the men from the liars.
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fdiron the FW190 was probably the best fighter in the world circa late 1942 mid 1943. Plus it had nearly perfect handling at the high combat speeds of WW2. WW2 aircombat was not AH with spit furballs on the deck.
Anyway Im sure it was a coincidence the F8F Bearcat was designed by BoB Hall just after he test flew a FW190 in england, and said if we put an R2800 in this thing. Just a coincidence they make a plane with nerary identical weight, length and wingspan to FW190 right after.
Yes just a coincidence...
Why even bother with a crowd who wouldnt accept the Spitfire wing was copied from the He70, when even the leader of Spitfire wing design team admitted it himself... Why?
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"Befor the 190 I think that it was just accepted that the cowl of a radial engine had to be very drag inducing.."
Pongo, after discarding the first design the FW used a standard NACA cowling.
Westy
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Why even bother with a crowd who wouldnt accept the Spitfire wing was copied from the He70, when even the leader of Spitfire wing design team admitted it himself... Why? [/B]
Who, might I ask, was in that crowd? You have an amazing gift for looking at the specific and seeing the general. You would do well to pay more attention.
-Sikboy
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The crowd that would make the Kurt Tank jokes I guess. :D
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Hehe... (http://www.flug-revue.rotor.com/FRHeft/FRH9902/FR9902g.htm)
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If you take a long hard look at the Bearcat you will see it's definitely a descendant of the Hellcat. The only thing that's really like the 190 is the routing of the engine exhaust. I think they definitely got this idea from the Fw. The same configuration was used on the La-5, La-7, Ki-100, and Sea Fury as well.
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why didn't the germans use the heinkel wing on the 109 and 190, confused, the british steal the uber german wing for the spit but the germans ignore it ,if it was so great why not use it on 109 an 190???
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The germans did use that wing on fighters. Go look up the Heinkel competitor to the Bf109. :p
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All we have to do is dig up evidence of someone at Grumman stating that sticking a R2800 onto a Zeke would make it a world beater... and then we have evidence the Bearcat copies the Zeke too.
The proof is in the pudding and when you look at the Bearcat and FW you see no truly visible design influence other than the normal trend going on in every country. Bigger engine + smaller airframe.
<>
<>>
Please, please, please....can't I have a Bearcat in the MA? :D
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Funked the thing thats like the FW190 in bearcat is not neccesarily structural, I never said it was copy or duplicte thats what the Kurt Tank joke idiots say, I did say it was based on the FW190 concept. And Guess what its an FW190 size/type/weight plane with an R2800.
Thats all I ever try to say, the idiots just wanna blow it out of proportion.
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Steven:
Robert Hall and Leroy Grumman designed the F8F on their own initiative starting in Late 1943 just after they returned to USA from england where thry flew FW190s. Then they design a plane with nearly identical dimensions.
There was no US navy order for a light fighter.
There was no Grumman project for a light small follow-on to F6F.
There was a Grumman project in late 1943 for a light small fighter with an R2800 after Bob Hall and Leroy Grumman test flew and examined FW190 in england during mid-late 1943. Bob Hall said again "if we put an R2800 in this thing we have world beater". And thats what they did. They started a project upon their return of a light, small , fighter with an R2800.
Thats the extent of my point, I never said it was a bolt for bolt copy, nor a duplicate, but definitely I will argue F8F project idea was based on Hall's experience with FW190 just before.
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You gotta remember that Grumman had already built a 190-sized fighter with a radial. It's called a Wildcat. And I still maintain that the exhaust routing on the F8F, Ki-100, La-5, La-7, and Sea Fury was obviously inspired by the 190.
Wing Span: 11.58m Length: 8.76m Height: 2.81m Wing Area: 24.15m2
Wing Span: 10.92m Length: 8.61m Height: 4.22m Wing Area: 22.67m2
Wing Span: 10.50m Length: 10.20m Height: 3.35m Wing Area: 18.30m2
Which pair is most similar?
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Thats all I was thinking funked. The much tighter cowl arround the radial.
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Originally posted by K West
As for the N1K2? Not even close. Completely different in just about all aspects.
Why do you say that ? It looks very much like a n1k2 don't you think ?
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(http://home.satx.rr.com/suvorov/n1k2-jf8f.jpg)
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More than the exhaust configuration was copied from the 190 for the Hawker Sea Fury (or to be more exact for the Hawker Tempest MKII - the Sea Fury was based on the the Tempest and used the same engine mounting as the MkII): The whole close cowled radial engine setup using an engine driven fan was used with some modification for the Centaurus engine and British equipement. Hawkers also experimented with Sabre engined Tempests using anular radiatior system suspiciously similar to the 190D and ducted spinner setup similar to the original 190 prototypes.
I rather suspect the La5 and La7 followed a similar path: the exhaust is similar and I've seen pictures which seem to show fan blades similar to the 190s through the gap between the cowling adn the spinner. I'd be interested to see anything confirming or denying this.
Other than some very gross similarities (both a/c are small radial engined fighters) I can't see any relationship between the 190 and the F8F. While the grumman team may well have had chance to play with the 190 (and any other captured German a/c) so did every fighter producer in the UK and the US. Grumman in particular had a history of producing small radial engined fighters. Like Funked I can't see any real correlation between the two apart from the exhausts.
btw. Kurt Tank invented Kurt Tank :)
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Funny thread...while most of us look at this 'similarities' as a joke, there are some who are too serious about it:
A: "This thing looks like 190, Grumman never knew how to build planes until they copied 190. It is all obvious."
B: "No, no, you are crazy ! It looks nothing like 190, that can't be, that is impossible, it is blasphemy...I'll die before I admit it !"
kiddies, eh ?
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Thats the extent of my point, I never said it was a bolt for bolt copy, nor a duplicate, but definitely I will argue F8F project idea was based on Hall's experience with FW190 just before.
Grun, if you think the people at Grumman only looked at the FW then you are cracked. And saying that an FW with an R2800 engine would be a world-beater doesn't mean squat in terms of where influence was gained. Basically, Grumman attempted to build a carrier-borne interceptor with excellent climb and that means power/weight ratio; i.e., small airframe + big engine.
At first I thought you were just having fun with this but now I'm not so sure. I have no problem if you personally want to believe this is the case based on one comment, but if you state it publicly I suspect you will have to deal with the rest of us.
"A GAU8 on an FW would be a world beater...woops, the A10 must owe its design to Kurt Tank." :p
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If you or I said it then yes, but if the chief designer and test pilot for Grumman, Bob Hall, said it then I put some more weight to that statement.
Do you think its a coincidence they designed Bearcat right after their experiences with FW190? And plese keep in mind there was NO Navy requirement at that time, mid-late 1943, for a compact light fighter, if anything the Navy wanted bigger ones with the really huge US radial engines. Think much bigger and heavier than even F2G.
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another original design follows...
(http://www.bird.ch/Russians/Tu144/TU14LL1.jpg)
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Actually Tu144 flew many months before Concorde. Even the Russians wouldnt copy French planes. :)
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Another point Steven why do you gus focus this so much on Kurt Tank? I dont see why that matters...
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" And please keep in mind there was NO Navy requirement at that time, mid-late 1943, for a compact light fighter..."
I replied more in the other F8F topic. But essentially the USN "awarded a contract to Grumman in Nov of 1943 to develop a fighter that could operate from ALL carriers rathet than be limited to just the largest. To meet the requirement Grumman engineers pursued a derivative of the F6F Hellcat."
And the F8F was of high enough priority that "...compared to some of its competitors, the Grumman Aircraft Corporation of Bethpage, Long Island was rather late in getting into the design of jet combat aircraft. However, between July of 1943 and November of 1944, Grumman undertook some preliminary work on several different jet-powered designs, some of them powered by a mixture of jet and piston engines. The first of these was the G-57, which was to have been powered by an R-2800 piston engine plus a small turbojet. Next was the G-61, which was a development of the F6F Hellcat with a turbojet engine in the tail. However, both of these projects had to be shelved in favor of higher-priority work on the G-58 (XF8F- 1 Bearcat), a conventional piston-engined fighter."
As for the F2G? "F2G Corsair was the US Navy's idea of a fast climbing interceptor... (from the opther topic). Wrong. It was Chance Voughts contender for a fast climbing interceptor. The USN liked it. Same thing as Republic milking more out of thier P-47 for the M and N models. Chance Vought used what they had and made it better. Much better. Without too much re-tooling to make and it would nor take resources away from jet aircraft development and production.
Westy
(Samm, the basic planeform does look very much alike. But in light of day they are very different. I guess if the F8F looked like any other plane (besides a bubble top F6F) it would resemble a George more than an FW)
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Anyone ever consider that design peramaters are dictated by the laws of nature, the manufacturing capabilities at the time and the physical requirments of aerodynamics.
The amount of power was about the same in all late war fighters -+ 300 hp or so, this dictated fuel capacity this led to airframe size that led to wing size ect. ect. The truth is that there really was not that much differance with AC performance when you compaired competing designs ie. P-51-Fw-190D.
It is not by copying but by understanding the design requirements that gives such sameness of design.
or should we just say that all aircraft are direct copys of the Wright Flyer (designed by .... a couple of Yanks ) I hope you see my point (I also hope I made one lol)
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Do you think its a coincidence they designed Bearcat right after their experiences with FW190?
Grun,
Yes and no. You make it seem as though the Grumman team only looked at the FW and then decided to make an American copy because it was so good.
Making a flippant statement that the FW would be a world-beater with an R2800 doesn't mean Grumman copied the airframe of the FW. It was a flippant statement because the FW wouldn't look anywhere near an FW with a 2800 because of the size of the engine and the redesign that would then be needed due to weights and balances and the multitude of other things that would be needed taken into account. And the concept of putting a large engine to a small airframe is not novel to the FW. Power/Weight and Range/Size is an elementary concept dating back to the birth of aviation.
If your world is a better one for thinking the Bearcat copied the FW, then go ahead and enjoy. From judging this thread, it appears to me you are in the minority if not the only one who holds this opinion.