Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Hazed on May 31, 2000, 03:18:00 PM
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I just want to say that I play AH because it is realistic and i love the idea of re-enacting battles from WW2.Now at the moment im enjoying playing in the main arena but my preference is for SE with axis vs allies and when we get a map that represents england/channel/france i suspect ill want to play nothing else (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
this talk of easy flight mode has made me think twice about carrying on with my account and also although i hope it will be changed the f4 one ping deaths are making the damage model unnecessary and the game less enjoyable. why have a model with many different places that can be damaged when 1 round from f4c's cannons destroys the whole plane?
i love trying to wrestle my stricken craft to the floor after being shot by other planes
so why is it when a f4 is anywhere near 900-1000 yrds behind me its twice as likely to destroy me rather than damage me?
i dont mean to moan but i am now avoiding f4's in general and although i understand they were a good plane why didnt the allies use them in europe and finish the war earlier if they were THAT good (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
my vote is for historically accurate planes,realistic flight and realistic axis/allies balance
the zero and 190 a5 will i hope readdress the problem of facing late version allied planes in old version axis planes (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif).Lets really see what the allies faced.A deadly and efficient enemy.
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oh, no another flamewar???
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
BTW F4U1-C's turbolasers suck (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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The sky is falling, the sky is falling!!! Er.. Easymode is coming, easymode is coming, everybody close their accounts!!!
Personally I will believe in easymode in AH when I see one.
F4U, the "Ensign eliminator" was a difficult aircraft to fly, especially during takeoff and landing. Many pilots were killed during crashes in those planes.
German pilots flew untill they were killed or untill the war ended - some for 6 years. Also the Luftwaffe was never numerous compared to other airforces. So LW pilots had much, much more stick time and experience then any other side. That is why they achieved such high kill counts in plames that were not that great.
American pilots served relatively brief tours of duty and usually had considerable numerical advantage. Most of them did not get much combat time.
An AH/WB pilot may have more stick time than any RL WWII pilot. He has enourmously much more COMBAT time than any RL pilot most of them had to fly hours to get to the combat zone and most sorties they did not even see the enemy.
Also, AH/WB player obtains experience much quicker then a RL pilot - it is much easier to concentrate on your gunnery if you are not at risk to actually get killed.
We also have a laser/radar ragefinder - as a RL T72 gunner I cannot express how great an advantage it is.
What it boils down to is that a properly modelled plane in the hands of an AH player is much more deadly than it was in real life.
One solution would be to make gunnery more difficult, but that would make the game impossible for a new player.
Also F4u 900-1000 yards from you and diving at you may be 400 yards on his FE - the lag effects are more pronounced when the planes accelerate.
miko--
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Nice post Hazed. I couldn't agree more about the HogC and the talk of an easy flight mode.
If the HogC's guns stay the same, and we don't get some form of a historical arena soon I'll likely start looking for other places to spend my $30 a month. I've already cancelled one of my accounts, I had an account for my wife but she lost interest fast (oh well it was worth a try).
All of my friends that I brought to AH have already quit and cancelled their accounts, except one (who's already told me this is his last month).
This is not a "I quit post". I'm not looking for a flame war over the HogC cannons etc.
I've been having fun lately but my interest is starting to stray to other things.
Mox
TWC
[This message has been edited by Mox (edited 05-31-2000).]
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Before the pointless back and forth bickering begins, here's a couple of often (excessively? routinely?) ignored "game facts".
1. "One ping" kills are VERY rare. "One ping" does NOT mean you were hit ONCE. It means you were destroyed by a heavy series of blows and you DIDN'T hear them all. I think you quit hearing sounds when the Host decides you die. Ram once told me I "one-pinged" his 109; my FE showed me about 25-30 20mm hits in his cockpit/wingroot area. So, forget "one ping", please.
2. Recent independent tests show that the F4U-1C and the FW-190 destroy a hangar in about the same number of shots. Lethality, in this limited example, is essentially EQUAL. As yet, no one has brought any substantive proof that F4 20mm's have significantly more leathality than FW 20mm's.
Pyro is looking into this, so we may get some other data points in the near future.
3. There are differences in trajectory between these two guns. Since Ballistic Coefficients for these rounds are hard if not impossible to determine this MAY be an area that harbors a problem. Pyro is reportedly looking into this as well.
4. As miko pointed out, "objects in the mirror are closer than they appear". Net lag is not constant and range indications when looking aft are NOT EXACT. They vary, and the differences can be significant. It is generally believed that if you show at least 1.1 or 1.2 you are pretty safe. Anything less than that and you CAN be hit.
OK, now let the whining begin yet again (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Originally posted by miko2d:
...We also have a laser/radar ragefinder...
Something needs to be done to correct this. IMHO, long range gunnery is way too easy now.
Camo
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Camouflage
XO, Lentolaivue 34
www.muodos.fi/LLv34 (http://www.muodos.fi/LLv34)
Brewster into AH!
"The really good pilots use their superior judgement to keep them out of situations
where they might be required to demonstrate their superior skill."
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the zero and 190 a5 will i hope readdress the problem of facing late version allied planes in old version axis planes
LOL! Best laugh of the day!
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Hazed,
First I am not a flame artist so I will keep this short and to the point. First I checked your kill numbers and you kill way more than you get killed. I fly nothing but the F4U-1C and I get killed more than I kill. You may be better pilot than me but I can tell you that number one I usually get killed in headon's with spits, 38's 190's or N1KI's. The reason I fly the -1C is that the performance is better in that A/C compared to the -1D. It is lighter, Turns and climbs better and is just as fast. It is based on the -1A version of the F4U. Just look at the hard point's on the A/C to determine which model it was (Also Americas hundred thousand). My kills usually if not always come between 300 and 500yrds in the 6 position. Last night I fired at you from 800yrds to try to make you maneuver so I could catch you and it worked, you died at 300yrds. I have a cable connect and I'm sure about distances. The cannons in the -1C are not as important to me as the other features.
As to your question about why the F4U was not flown in Europe. I can give you the 100% truth as quoted from Gen. George C. Marshall
in a book on the Navy in WW2. I read it at the library and I can't quote the source but here it is. "I don't want any Jarhead pilots in my war". You see there was a great rivalry between the services that cut very deeply.
There were area's in the South Pacific where there was no Naval airpower allowed either.
Such as New Guinea in the central Pacific, an area under Army control there was no Naval or Marine Aviation to speak of. However the British did use Wildcats and Hellcats agaisnt the Lufwaffe. The Hellcats claiming 5 victories vrs 2 losses. British Wildcats claimed at least 1 Ju-88 and 5 FW-200 destroyed during the war. British Corsairs also saw service in Europe but did not have any air to air encounters. The US Navy had planned to use fast carries during the Normandy invasion equiped with Corsairs using 11.5inch TinyTim rockets (The largest of the war) to take out the German V-1 and V-2 launch sites and to cover the invasion of Normandy. Didn't you ever wonder why in the largest Naval invasion in history there was no Aircraft Carries anywhere in site? Army intelligence and ego my friend. The Navy had tested captured German A/C for the occasion.
http://members.home.net/markw4/FW190_F4U.html (http://members.home.net/markw4/FW190_F4U.html) . Face it, most of the flight simms designed today are for Army A/C and LW planes. Nobody in the flight simm market wants to seriously look at the performance of the F4U, Hellcat or Zero. If in 1940 the German's were flying Zero's the battle of Britian might not have worked out the same. They had three times the range of the 109's giving them much more time over target and were more maneuverable than the Hurri's and Spit's. Then everybody would be complaining about how the guns in the A6M2 are undermodelled and blah, blah, blah.
Anyway I'll make a deal with AH. Put a F4U-4 in the game to match the 109G10's and FW-190D-9's in the game and get rid of the cannons in the -1C and make it a -1A. By the way there were more F4U-4's built than any other version of F4U and they did see combat in WW2. There were over 1859 built and accepted by the Navy and Marines by August of 1945 and 2050 built all together by 1946.
Later
F4UDOA
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Originally posted by Toad:
Before the pointless back and forth bickering begins, here's a couple of often (excessively? routinely?) ignored "game facts".
1. "One ping" kills are VERY rare. "One ping" does NOT mean you were hit ONCE. It means you were destroyed by a heavy series of blows and you DIDN'T hear them all. I think you quit hearing sounds when the Host decides you die. Ram once told me I "one-pinged" his 109; my FE showed me about 25-30 20mm hits in his cockpit/wingroot area. So, forget "one ping", please.
4. As miko pointed out, "objects in the mirror are closer than they appear". Net lag is not constant and range indications when looking aft are NOT EXACT. They vary, and the differences can be significant. It is generally believed that if you show at least 1.1 or 1.2 you are pretty safe. Anything less than that and you CAN be hit.
Just a few comments on Toad's post:
1. One ping kills are VERY common for me and some others that play on fast connections when a F4UC or a Spit is within 2.0 from me.
I play on a Pent III 800 256SDRAM (PC133) with a GeForce DDR on a full T1 with less than 10 users at anytime. I have a switched 100mbit fiber attached connection to the router which is connected directly to Verio in Dallas. I live in Dallas (about 20mins from HiTechs office).
I spent about an hour talking with HiTech about the "way" a ping (not just the sound but the sprites) were calculated standing outside his office some time ago.
I've proven to myself and some others that tested with me that the single ping/single sprite deaths occur more frequently on my LAN connection versus a 56K modem. I've tested it against 128K ISDN (Ascend Router, a local cable connection and a local ADSL (Caymen Router 1.54mb burstable to 6Meg downstream)connection all with varying results. I'm not done with the testing of the ADSL but so far the 56K modem is less likely to experience a single ping/single sprite death.
The F4UC stands out on these test as the number one killer with single ping/single sprite deaths. The Spits following in second place.
If a 56K modem player see's a hit sprite on his FE I take the damage on my system (T1) an average of 98% of the time, while in the reverse the modem player can take damage as little as 45% of the time compared to my FE.
So to say that it's "VERY rare" is not entirely true for some people.
I know my testing is not in a closed enviroment and has MANY variables including lag at different times etc, and would be very difficult to quantify but I assure you there was a big difference in the connections speeds as to the lethality of some guns.
These tests were done over a month and a half ago and HiTech said he'd look into it.
2. I agree with Toad here, 1.2 is a good average to be safe but in my experiences on my connection I have to be careful with all planes out to 1.6 and very careful with the HogC's and Spit out to as far as 1.8. I was killed by a HogC just last night at 1.6 on my end and it was the normal single ping death for me.
HO's are the absolute worst for me. I've been able to make a plane explode on the pass and continue flying along for as long as 15-20 seconds making some flight corrections for my next kill and BOOM I blow up.
I've learned to avoid HO's and give major respect to the HogC's and the Spits because in my testing I'm at a disadvantage.
I believe this is the only game I've ever played where my connection speed to the net is a disadvantage.
It's still a hell of a game and I've learned to compensate for the differences as best I can.
Mox
TWC
[This message has been edited by Mox (edited 05-31-2000).]
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Mox....
Intriguing data and ramifications..........
Thanks for the feedback and logical communications analysis...<salute>
Ironically, many still jabber on about lethality, captured plane tests, 1940's war office documents and a bunch of other static off-line analysis. All these efforts spent in the name of justifying or refuting the accuracy of programming code for a computer game, which introduces variables such as what you've demonstrated. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
It is no wonder why some of threads on AGW and here are a complete waste of energy.
It must drive programmers at both iEN and HTC crazy to read some of them.
Regards,
Badger
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i am now avoiding f4's in general and although i understand they were a good plane why didnt the allies use them in europe and finish the war earlier if they were THAT good
Why? Because the USAAF had no trouble slaughtering the poor Jagdwaffe with the equipment on hand.
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Mox,
I'm not clear on your testing.
Are you saying that on the OTHER GUY'S FE (the killer's FE) he was showing one hit/one sprite on you and you died? And this would be with NO PREVIOUS damage to your aircraft?
Further, you indicate that you are getting killed by one round at a range of 2.0K? Is this on your FE or the killer's FE?
I'd really like to see this stuff. Do you have films? It would indeed seriously change some of my views.
I have NEVER killed an nme plane with one ping showing on my FE and I flew the -1C for a while. (Mostly the -51 now) I have also never seen a hit sprite on anything beyond 1.0 or 1.1 on my FE and damn few of those (usually a "goodbye" hose, trying to get the guy to jink or turn).
Anyway, I'd love to see some of this stuff on film or participate in your tests. I'm on a modem, usually around 40,000 bps.
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Mox,
Dinger's test found no anomalies in the cannon when firing at ground targets, so the only explanation for the high "percieved" lethality of the HS cannon is that relative lethality is different when shooting at planes. Your finding suggests a reason why there might be some differences when shooting at planes!
You need to start another thread and give us EVERYTHING you have. Enough that we can try to duplicate your experiments and add to the database. There are a lot of nerds on this board, put us to work on this case.
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I personally would have liked to see the f4u-1a
or perhaps a birdcage cockpit corsair
why not? we have 4 friggin 109s!
we have the cannon hawg 1c and the ground attack 1d
the F4u-1a was the essential fighter version of the corsair
[This message has been edited by Citabria (edited 05-31-2000).]
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Originally posted by Toad:
Mox,
I'm not clear on your testing.
Are you saying that on the OTHER GUY'S FE (the killer's FE) he was showing one hit/one sprite on you and you died? And this would be with NO PREVIOUS damage to your aircraft?
Further, you indicate that you are getting killed by one round at a range of 2.0K? Is this on your FE or the killer's FE?
I'd really like to see this stuff. Do you have films? It would indeed seriously change some of my views.
I have NEVER killed an nme plane with one ping showing on my FE and I flew the -1C for a while. (Mostly the -51 now) I have also never seen a hit sprite on anything beyond 1.0 or 1.1 on my FE and damn few of those (usually a "goodbye" hose, trying to get the guy to jink or turn).
Anyway, I'd love to see some of this stuff on film or participate in your tests. I'm on a modem, usually around 40,000 bps.
First of all thanks Toad and Badger for the responses as I was sure this message would start a flame war which I had no intentions of doing and would not have responded to.
My test was done on a 56K modem (USR Sportster) on a Pent III 600EB 256SDRAM PC100 with a TNT2 (Wifes pc setting next to mine). I disconnected the NIC and used the modem on a local dial up. I would fire a single burst and count the hit sprites and compare to see if any damage and how many pings (if any) occured on the modem machine. I always did this as the target aircraft was flying straight and level from the 6o'clock position. I always fired as few rounds as I could (harder to do than you think). When I saw the big differences between the modem and my LAN connection I decided to take it a little further by calling a squad mate that was across the street using a ISDN 2B 128K Ascend router (I helped build the network he was using so I knew it well). We turned up our volumes so that we both could hear each others screen and tested over and over again. While he had no reason to tell me anything other than the truth about his damage I did not review the films, I took his word for it. As we reversed our test (squadmate was shooting at me) I took damage/or at least a ping was heard just about ever single time he called out a hit sprite. I had no way to be totaly accurate on the amount of hits versus the damage when there was more than 1 hit sprite. I was only concerned about the single hit sprite to damage ratio between the connections.
While I heard a ping on his end (via the phone) about 1/3rd of the time I saw a hit sprite on my FE, he damage/pinged me a lot more closely to a 1 to 1 ratio. The same squadmate went to see HiTech with me and we three talked about what we had been seeing and he said it's "possible" something was wrong and he'd look into it. Since then I started testing the same thing on the ADSL connection but it was much harder to test as it was my office and my home connection that I was testing. Hard to explain why I was at the office at 9:00 at night playing AH in my office. while talking to my wife at home asking "any damage?" (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
I switched jobs and have been too busy to start the test back up. I will tell you HiTech was very interested in what was happening. After talking to HiTech I learned that you should not hear a ping for every round that hits you BUT you should be confident that if you see a hit sprite on a enemy plane on your FE, the other guys should take damage or hear a ping. HiTech even offered to activate debug code on my system so he could watch and see what was happening.
My test were in no way complete, I did not test the N1K or the LA5, but I did test the others. The .50's were porked when I tested them and they rarly did much damage. I'm sure there's a lot I could have done on these test to make them more accurate and give us more hard data to look at but I never intended to spend as much time as I did on testing it.
I was a newbie to AH in beta and I never flew the other brands so I didn't/don't have a skewed perception based on other experiences in the other online flight sims/games.
I've learned a lot playing here but the 2 hours I spent at HiTech Creations I learned so much about the game, I can see the drive and the desire in HiTechs eye's to make this the best online sim ever. I might poke fun at being bored with the "Quakers" arena but I know I'm backing the best in the business with my money.
When I have the time maybe I'll take up the testing again. Who knows HiTech could have found a problem and fixed it by now.
In any event I still give the HogC and the Spits MAJOR respect on range.
For the record I have never been killed at 2.0 with a single ping without previous damage but I have been killed with a single ping (unsure of the hits because I couldn't see the others FE) at ranges of 1.7 by a F4UC multiple times. I'm measureing these distances looking backwards and yes I know "objescts may be closer than they appear".
Mox
TWC
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This whole "one ping death" thing. Ahh if only that were the case. Given a 5% hit percentage, I'd be able to knock down 45 planes before running out of ammo.
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Originally posted by Mox:
I play on a Pent III 800 256SDRAM (PC133) with a GeForce DDR on a full T1 with less than 10 users at anytime. I have a switched 100mbit fiber attached connection to the router which is connected directly to Verio in Dallas. I live in Dallas (about 20mins from HiTechs office).
Just a note that a connection with the speed of light to a computer 10000 miles away will need 53,3 millisec to reach it's destination. double that to get your ping.
Then consider you being chased by a plane where you are both doing 300mph at sea level.
That plane will seem 14 meters farther away than it really is. Then consider that one of you are having a bad connect (worse than the speed of light).
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"Head-ons are for pilots that don't know what their next move should be"
Ltn. Snefens
RO, Lentolaivue 34 (http://www.muodos.fi/LLv34)
[This message has been edited by LLv34_Snefens (edited 05-31-2000).]
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Originally posted by Fatty:
This whole "one ping death" thing. Ahh if only that were the case. Given a 5% hit percentage, I'd be able to knock down 45 planes before running out of ammo.
Heya Fatty being from Dallas I've spent a lot of time on 6th Street there in Austin. The firm I just left had a office at 6th and Congress (Bank One building I believe) and I spent a lot of very late nights there. Usually stayed at the Driskill (haunted hotel haha) or the Omni and always ate at Jazz or Louis's 109 (or whatever the number was.
Mox
TWC
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<smerk on face> hehe gotta love it <pulls out the jug of moonshine and cranks up the 190> (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/tongue.gif)
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(http://joemud.homestead.com/files/jm.jpg)
JG2 "Richthofen" (http://members.tripod.com/JG2/)
[This message has been edited by JoeMud (edited 05-31-2000).]
[This message has been edited by JoeMud (edited 05-31-2000).]
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Originally posted by F4UDOA:
Anyway I'll make a deal with AH. Put a F4U-4 in the game to match the 109G10's and FW-190D-9's in the game and get rid of the cannons in the -1C and make it a -1A. Later
F4UDOA
Huh ? We have the Dora ?!?! Somehow I missed it (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
G-10 has exceptional qualities, but is essentially a 1 on 1 plane, not good for multiplane arena.
Sorry, but I like it historical all the way. Personally, I will continue flying A-8, since it was most common 190 in mid 1944, which AH tries to represent. Even if A-5 offers certain advantages.
What annoys me is fantasy matchup where I fight 205s and wing with Nikis, for example.
Along with neon icons, where there is no place to hide. The guy who climbs highest wins the fight here, you can't escape from him.
BTW, the most common plane I see higher than me is the Hog, usualy at 25k. Never been there in 190.
Make no icon arena a lot of things will change. Some to worse, more to better.
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Well said Hristo.
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Mox,
<S>! to you for taking the time to do this analysis, and then taking the time again to detail it here. I respect the folks here that do this, especially when its presented as well as this. Hell, for the most part, I just kick the tires and light the fire, and for the vast the majority of the time, all's right with the universe when I'm AH..hehe.
Aside from all the other issues (real and imagined) when I'm flying formation with my squadmates, I still will say "wow" at times at the graphics. I know its just eye-candy to some, and for the most part that just what it is, but it sure helps with the immersion factor.
Anyway S! on the analysis.
Hristo...I'm with Funked..well said.
Cobra
Musketeer Escadrille
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Mox,
Believe me, I'm not interested in flame wars. Mostly, that's just folks that like to read their own press releases.
I AM interested in any kind of testing and that's why I'm interested in your experiences.
In fact, I was so interested that my squaddie (Beemer) and I went into the TA and did some shooting with the F4U-1C and the FW.
We filmed from both ends.
It will take a while to get the films uploaded and an analysis done but here's a quick and dirty.
First, we were both on standard modems. Ranges generally showed a 100-200 yard difference, with the pursuer showing the closer range. This was true out to 1.4. There was no one else in the arena and that might be a factor but I'm not sure.
We flew the FW against the F4 & the FW as targets and then we flew the F4 against the F4 and the FW.
First test was with guns at 300 convergence and 300 yard shots. We put the target airplane in a 200 MPH speed climb to give a bit of planform and took shots from the 6. We DID NOT use MG on the FW...cannon only. (Although on the 1.0K test I did hose some MG at Beemer at the beginning. It's easy to hit with little holdover but he reported no damage after about 10 hit sprites. We then went on to cannons only.)
Basically, it took from 4-10 hits from EITHER the FW or the F4 to render the target plane incapable of flight. There were no "one ping" kills and there didn't seem to be that much difference in leathality between the FW and the F4. It was easy to kill in two short cannon bursts from either plane at this range. Perhaps 25-30 rounds expended for 4-10 hits and a kill.
We then tried the same thing but shooting at 1.0K and with convergence at 400.
Yes, you can get kills with either aircraft at that range. Of course, this is with a target in a 200mph climb and not maneuvering. For me, I simply put the pipper just under the range part of the icon and tripped short bursts.
The leathality was still about the same; it took perhaps 5-10 hit sprites to render the target aircraft incapable of flight.
The BIG difference is that it took about an entire ammo load from either plane to get that many hits. Due to dispersion, rounds were going everywhere around the target aircraft. A VERY FEW found their target, but they were just as leathal as they were at 300 yards from EITHER aircraft.
We'll get those films uploaded to the 13th TAS website and you guys can take a look for yourselves.
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Mox,
Another thing to consider is effective evasives. Start working on this. I fly the La-5FN exclusively, and have spent a long time (since my WB days in the Yaks) perfecting my evasives, especially ones that cause an overshoot. And that practice has paid off handsomely.
If a Zero can evade the attack of 15 F6Fs (ok, so he was a superb pilot), then evading one F4u-1c should be very doable. And, in fact, it is.
Work on an evasive that causes an overshoot, because these type of maneuvers can really switch the positions radically. Scissors & snap rolls come to mind, but your chosen aircraft will best determine the right evasives.
Good luck!
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(http://www.adamfive.com/guerrero/5GIAP.jpg)
leonid, Komandir
5 GIAP VVS RKKA (http://www.adamfive.com/guerrero)
"Our cause is just. The enemy will be crushed. Victory will be ours."
[This message has been edited by leonid (edited 06-01-2000).]
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Please pardon if I am missing something here.
Is it possible to do an on-line controlled test by looking at your score before and after a test?
It seems like comparing the difference between ordnance used/ordnance hit before and after the test, and comparing it to the film of *both* pilots, might be of some help? This is assuming of course that the controlled test is two players flying level and one person shooting from the six. It would be interesting to see what the system (score) says as far as hits vs. what both films show.
Fury
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Toad, I have a few questions for you on your testing last night.
Did you use the FW with the 2x 20mm or the 4x 20mm?
Are you and Beemer in the same geographical area? Same ISP?
One other thing to note about my testing, I tested with my 2 very similar systems side by side before I got the other connection types envolved I and got very similar results like you. It appeared that the differences in connection speeds were where I was seeing the very odd hits and no damage stuff. I tested with a convergence of 300 and 600. I too saw a huge dispersion of the shells after about 600.
If I get some time in the near future maybe you me and Beemer could test this on a 3 way call so that we can all hear each others PC and see what the results are. I’d guess that you and Beemer would see similar results based on your connections where I would see a much different perspective, unless of course HiTech found some problem and fixed it since I did my test.
Fury: The main reason I started these test was because I kept getting hit sprites all over my enemies at a fairly close range, 600 or so and they would never go down. I would always ask people “Did you take any damage?” and the usual answer was “no damage and no pings”. I wanted to prove to myself and a few other friends that my gunnery was not THAT bad so I started the test. While it was very hard to tell if the score web page was really calculating my hits, as best I remember I don’t think it was very accurate. What I mean by that is: I would write down my hit info on the web page then test and add the number of hit sprites I saw in a test session and compare it to the web page after the test session and the hit’s were more closely related to what my enemy (the slower connection) agreed upon than what my number showed. I gave up quickly on trying this method of calculating hits.
Leonid: I agree with what your saying and I’d like to think that my flying has gotten better since the days of this test. I like the LA5 and I’d like to spend some time in the TA with you or one of your squadmates to truly learn how to fly that bird. I got 2 3 kill fights in the LA5 just last night fighting Fatty and his boys on the deck at 17. I fly all the birds but I really should just concentrate on one and learn it well.
Just last night at base 3 I was 1 ping killed (wing gone and pilot wounded on a previously undamaged plane) from a HogC at 1.5 on my FE. Not only am I accustomed to it happening to me on a regular basis but the friends I sometimes fly with on 3way or conference call (not RW) heard it and simply said “was that another 1 ping death”, because they heard a single ping on the phone and I was plowing a ditch.
With all the responses about how many pilots here don’t care too much about the HogC guns, it leads me to believe maybe they are not so bad for “most players”. What I really need to do is dust off the old 33.6 Courier and play an entire tour of AH on the modem only and see if the result are the same. If my results are the same then I’d need to build (I have lots of parts around) up a slower PC and use the modem to see if it is any different.
Mox
TWC
[This message has been edited by Mox (edited 06-01-2000).]
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I will only say one thing here.
I only died once with one-ping-death versus a 190.
I have died TONS of times with one-ping-death against F4U1-C.
I dont count in these the "pilot kill" death, but a wing gone, a tail watching world, or my engine going to a communist riot.
For me that weights more than any test. That, and Pyro admitting that there is something weird with hispanos.
<RAM clouses his mouth and sticks it with glue in order for not to open it again in this thread>
[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 06-01-2000).]
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Originally posted by Mox:
Toad, I have a few questions for you on your testing last night.
Did you use the FW with the 2x 20mm or the 4x 20mm?
We used the FW with the 4x20mm as that gun package most closely approximates the firepower of the F4U. We DID NOT use the MG's in the testing other than that one instance to see if they would hit at 1.0K.
Are you and Beemer in the same geographical area? Same ISP?
No, I am in Kansas City and Beemer is near Edmunton, Canada.
It appeared that the differences in connection speeds were where I was seeing the very odd hits and no damage stuff.
I think you may be on to something here Mox. In all our shooting there was ONE instance of Beemer < FW shooter, 300 yds> seeing two hit sprites while I <F4 target, 375 yds> got NO indication or hit or damage. Otherwise, hits were pretty equally indicated on both ends for both players and we did reverse roles <as far as we could tell>.
Another thing to consider is that we had matched speeds at 200, so there was little closure or drift. That probably affected the range indications in a positive manner and possibly host hit reporting.
If I get some time in the near future maybe you me and Beemer could test this on a 3 way call so that we can all hear each others PC and see what the results are.
Absolutely! I am willing to help. I think we need more information on this to see if there really is a problem. There have been a lot of complaints with very, very little besides pure anecdotal "this happened to me in the MA but I have no film".
If we can document some of this stuff, it gives HTC a place to start. The other side of the story is that if we CAN'T document it maybe the complaints are without basis in fact.
It's a possibility. None of us want Pyro to program the flight model based on "historical anecdotes." We want hard flight test data and other "reliable" proven info.
I'm afraid I regard these "There I was in the MA, one turning, one burning and two shot away.." anecdotal player stories in the same way we all regard "historical anecdotes" with respect to flight model programming. In short, we need something better than that to base changes in the programming upon. We need recorded instances.
With all the responses about how many pilots here don’t care too much about the HogC guns, it leads me to believe maybe they are not so bad for “most players
I'm one of those. I mostly fly the -51 now but I've flown the HogC. If you are in the same neighborhood with an nme C, you better expand your SA envelope. I personally think the FW demands the same response. I don't consider myself "clear" unless I have 1.5K on one of these birds because either one can kill you with a single burst and range marks are unreliable. If you are not maneuvering with a FW or F4U-1C showing 1.0K back, he can kill you if he wants to. It's just a fact.
I don't get killed by the HogC or the FW too often because I don't give them the chance. If there's one above me, I get lateral separation. If there's one below me, I make sure I'm fast when I engage. When there's one co-alt, I turn away until I'm above him and fast. You don't have to be this careful with other planes that don't have the 4x20mm.
To me, this game is all SA. Push the envelope and you'll get killed. <but that's the fun part >
[This message has been edited by Toad (edited 06-01-2000).]
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Please post film of any plane getting 1 ping kill.
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thanks for the threads people.
it is interesting reading others views...
I'd just like to restate that im not trying to moan just letting HTC know what my choice of how the game will go is more geared toward realistic/historical rather than simple/unhistorical (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
look ive played flight sims for years and ive never wanted to match a sopwith with a me262...its not realistic even if fun for a few minutes it soon becomes tiresome....especially if you like to fly the sopwith (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
some of my best sorties in AH have been the longer and more organised ones...please head us in that direction...imagine 20 bombers 10 escorts vs 40 intercepting fighters... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) these sorties are what really make me want to stay. if you agree say so...if not then tell me what you want (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)....
personally i wont play free for all fighting for too long because after several months now i dont enjoy it so much.I cant wait for the mission planner and it is a great idea.
ok ill stop nattering on and just say thanks for replies all
Hazed
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Originally posted by easymo:
Please post film of any plane getting 1 ping kill.
That's much harder to do than you think. How can I get you to "hear" a single ping while looking at hit sprites without you being on the phone or sitting next to me at my PC? The "sound" is the part that's hard to prove with our current film recorder.
Per HiTech himself you do not hear a ping for every shell/bullet that hits your plane. The ping sound is generated on a time ratio as best I understand it. I asked HiTech what that time ratio was and he said he did not remember off the top of his head. I was told the ping sound is not a 1 to 1 ratio with the hit sprite.
Example: you might hear 1 ping BUT actually you could see something like 5 or more hit sprites.
Mox
TWC
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Toad:
Looking back at our post about the large dispersion of the shells after 600 that we both saw.... This would lead me to believe that the "single ping" deaths I'm getting truely are a "single" shell (thus a single hit sprite) because with dispersion at 1.5 or so it would be almost impossible to get multiple shells to hit a small target (the size of a plane) that far away. The other option is the distances are just way off in some cases and lags doing something really odd
Sorry Hazed I had no intentions of stealing your thread here! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) Hazed, I share the same opinions you do on what I'd like to see in AH.
Here's my email Toad if you'd like to continue talking about these test.
catman@royal.net
Sorry guys for some of the long winded post.
Mox
TWC
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Hey Mox, actually I don't make it down to 6th too often, aside from beer and wings at BW3s, or some pool at Buffalo Billiards, it's just too crowded for me most of the time. I will sneak down to 4th, or on the river once in a while though.
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Easymo I had one film of it, sent it to Hblair, he may have it still. As I changed HD a couple of weeks ago I dont have it any longer.
I didnt want him to post it here because it was my "rant-all-time" phase and Has a lot of BS on the radio buffer (mostly mine (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)).
If he has it ,he can send it to you. It is quite long, and shows me fighting a F4UC. I had 2 snapshots on him,hits in both, both less than 150 yds with my 4x20mm Fw190. He lost the rudder...and nothing else.
He got one ping later on me(confirmed by the guy, only one flash in his FE). He make my engine pray for more oil as he was leaking all it had (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif). With one shot at 300yds (in his FE, because in mine he was 400yds and I was faster) when I had at least 5 flashes on him (maybe more I cant recall it well) at 100-150 yds. Compare the results:
(5-6 flashes at 100-150yds) rudder gone<--->(one flash at 300-350yds)engine killed.
I had 2 or 3 films more like that...the kind of one ping while avoiding HO,results: tail gone...wing gone...engine quit,etc. But as I said I changed HD and I lost all films (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif). I hope hblair can send the one I said before to you.
One ping from a F4U1-C is structural damage assured. I dont need any TA tests, I tested it by myself....in my skin, to be truth.
(OOOPS I OPENED MY MOUTH AGAIN)
<RAM>------------------>Closing this time his mouth at all in this thread.
[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 06-01-2000).]
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Originally posted by RAM:
I dont need any TA tests, I tested it by myself....in my skin, to be truth.
(OOOPS I OPENED MY MOUTH AGAIN)
<RAM>
LOL!
"Don't confuse me with the facts. I've already made up my mind!"
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Originally posted by Toad:
LOL!
"Don't confuse me with the facts. I've already made up my mind!"
(MOUTH SHUT)
MMMMMMMMMMMMMMM!!!!!!!! M! M! MMMMMMMM!!!!!!!
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Yesterday, May 31st 2000, a date which will live in obscurity. I got my waxed bellybutton handed to me on a silver platter the size of Texas.
Im good. At times Im damned good. Hell, every once in a while Im brilliant.
Yesterday I sucked so bad it was miles past pathetic. Funny thing is, I had fun!
I am well and beyond the point where I ponder about the technical details. I do not lose any sleep on these matters. I NEED this stuff and all I want is to enjoy myself in spite of myself.
So far so good.
Yeager
[This message has been edited by Yeager (edited 06-01-2000).]
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Although this may seem slightly OT here, one thing that I think would enhance the realism would be to get rid of those numerical ammo counters. German aircraft whould therefore get the ammo counters fitted inside the RL plan's cockpits, and Allied pilots would have to guess. If you want to go the whole hog, I guess tracers should not be used in some instances too, and in this case Allied pilots would only see tracers as a warning that their ammo was getting low.
You never know, it might add a certain something to the AH experience (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) !