Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: hblair on November 06, 2001, 07:58:00 AM
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How do you guys feel about making the cockpit view so you just can't spin your head endlessly in one direction?
Say, if ya turn your head left to look straight back, and ya wanna look out the right side of your plane, you'd have to rotate your head back to the right past straight ahead to see out your right side of your plane instead of just turning further left.
What do you guys think of this?
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Sounds great, if and when mirrors are modelled for those that had them.
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I dunno, I can turn my head pretty fast. :D
A lot faster than IL-2 can :rolleyes:
[ 11-06-2001: Message edited by: AcId ]
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I agree that to go from the 7 view to the 5 view your head should not travers the 6 view. It should go around to the front and then back over the shoulder again.
Westy
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I agree, IL-2 is way slow compared to RL head rotation. I'd leave the head rotation speed the same as the current AH speed if possible.
[ 11-06-2001: Message edited by: hblair ]
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I actually think that we can't see well enough. I would love peripheral vision and mirrors. but then... I rarely fly LW planes so have no need for people to be blinded.
lazs
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F4.0 has a weird check 6 head movement thing I forget how it works. I'll I know is i just wanted to look backwards without all the extra bs associated with a game trying to further limit how to get around view issues in the sim.
It's bad enough our monitor limits, and you have to use your fingers and a joystick inputs to mimic your head turning for views. (Looking back takes a nanosecond, no matter which way you start, try it)
Now get another soapbox so your twice as high, and tell HTC to get realistic cockpits HB. These hoopty fake American ones in Fockwulfies is just a hideous scar to a otherwise fantastic game.
Carry on.
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Originally posted by Creamo:
Now get another soapbox so your twice as high, and tell HTC to get realistic cockpits HB. These hoopty fake American ones in Fockwulfies is just a hideous scar to a otherwise fantastic game.
Carry on.
No soapboxes here. Just giving suggestions. :) I bet HT has metric gauges on the agenda. I look forward to seeing them. Adds to the immersion of flying Geramn iron...
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Unlike in AH, it takes virtually no thought to turn my head, even when drunk.
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I know Hb, just saying.
I'd like a seperate download for the realistic graphic pak, or even a realism/skill level system introduced.
But thats a whole new thread.
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Creamo, FYI:
1 nanosecond is 1/1000,000,000 second...maybe even less!
I tried it...I can't turn my head as fast as you...I need to train :D
[ 11-06-2001: Message edited by: deSelys ]
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I'd like a system like this:
Looking forward, you hit '2' on the numeric keypad (or coolie hat equivalent): you look behind/high (45°)
Looking left, you hit '2' on the numeric keypad(or....): you look above your left shoulder (like our 6 view now, but with the point of view offset to the left)
looking right, you hit '2' (....): you look above your right shoulder (....).
So with 1 button, or 1 coolie hat position, you have 3 ways of looking behind you, depending on where you were looking the instant before.
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hy·per·bo·le (h-pûrb-l)
n.
A figure of speech in which exaggeration is used for emphasis or effect, as in I could sleep for a year or This book weighs a ton.
;)
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Gee thanks deSelys.
I'll store that tidbit of info with "The Periodic Table of Elements" knowledge I gathered as a Sophomore in HS and use daily.
[ 11-06-2001: Message edited by: Creamo ]
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Ahh now I get it, thanks Kieran!
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I could sleep for a year too. You have a book that weighs an entire ton?!? Wow!!!
SOB
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I think most pilots would go along with something like this....
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I like that idea hblair. I'd also like to see an optional dnload pack of realistic cockpit art somewhere down the road.
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Originally posted by hblair:
I bet HT has metric gauges on the agenda. I look forward to seeing them. Adds to the immersion of flying Geramn iron...
I hope not.It will hugely distract from my immersion of flying german iron.
I strongly believe that feeling familiar in the cockpit is much more true to pilot's experience then having authentic layout.
Last time I checked, german pilots spent 6+ months to get familiar with their cockpits.
I have neither time nor desire to simulate 6 months of LW pilot's training in one plane. Many people would share my reservations. Not remembering where that flaps indicator is or having to convert units in flight is not realistic filot's experience.
So until there is some hypnotic method of instant cockpit familariry and metric unit conversion, I would rather use generic cockpit.
Of course if HTC makes a choice of generic/authentic cockpit available and authomatic language translator/unit converter for the text buffer and RW voicecomms, I would have no problem with that.
But I bet that they have better things to do for the game them coming up with dozens of cockpits for the five guys who care about them.
miko
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And this extra artwork would be turned out by whom? And you would be willing to sacrifice what upcoming planes instead? This stuff doesn't come out of thin air. Frankly, I want to see more planes and vehicles, more new feature.
Not to mention the fact that AH doesn't use 2D cockpits. It's not "cockpit art", its the actual 3D shape. You can't just "slide a different bitmap in there", it's not that simple. I don't expect to see metric guages or "realistic cockpit art" based on the fact that AH uses real 3D object and simply places your viewpoint inside the "seat" area. It's why their fantastic view system works so well. I can't imagine it would be trivial to re-design the 3d object for every plane and vehicle in the game with a different cockpit. That just doesn't sound feasible, even if it was desirable.
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Leave it alone. If and when you have your own game do as you want. There is no NEED for this "modification".
(http://www.13thtas.com/mav13sig.jpg)
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I'm sure it they made a blank model available there would be plenty of offers to submit models...
Just as I'm sure plenty of folks would be willing to do skins if given the chance.
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Originally posted by Maverick:
Leave it alone. If and when you have your own game do as you want. There is no NEED for this "modification".
I don't plan on "having my own game", I make my living doing something else. I enjoy playing this great game HTC has made. Why is it when guys propose some different way of doing things, some people tell them they can do it "in their own game"? All you gotta do is say you don't think the idea is feasible, not hint for us to get lost.
:)
[ 11-06-2001: Message edited by: hblair ]
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I agree with that point, HB. No need to get upset, just disagree.
As for the view thingy, I don't care which way it goes, it doesn't matter much to me. As long as everyone plays by the same rules it makes no difference.
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Originally posted by hblair:
Why is it when guys propose some different way of doing things, some people tell them they can do it "in their own game"? All you gotta do is say you don't think the idea is feasible, not hint for us to get lost.
Quite often a vocal minority would demand and get something that practically noone else uses but the game is screwed up for everyone else or some features are delayed.
The best example is realistic cocpits and metric system in WB. It was a lot of hassle to communicate when half the people would use meters or kph, also the downloads are huge.
Some people sound like the authentic cockpits and metric system are the most important part of the game. So how come so many of those realists left WB and came to AH which does not have those features?
miko
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Originally posted by miko2d:
Quite often a vocal minority would demand and get something that practically noone else uses but the game is screwed up for everyone else or some features are delayed.
The best example is realistic cocpits and metric system in WB.
Noone is demanding anything here. We're having a discussion.
Now, how people using the metric form of measurement in each aircraft screws up the game for you will be interesting to hear. This dumb Alabamian had no problem with it.
Originally posted by miko2d:
...also the downloads are huge.
Are they? I honestly didn't know. How big are the downloads? Aren't the gauges independent from the "console" in aces high? I didn't think that they had to "draw" them up. Am I wrong? I don't know.
Originally posted by miko2d:
Some people sound like the authentic cockpits and metric system are the most important part of the game
Which people? They haven't posted to this thread whoever they are.
[ 11-06-2001: Message edited by: hblair ]
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As I said in the other thread, I like this idea too. Not sure why everyone are getting their panties in a bunch over it. It's just an idea for a little addition to the game.
SOB
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Originally posted by hblair:
Say, if ya turn your head left to look straight back, and ya wanna look out the right side of your plane, you'd have to rotate your head back to the right past straight ahead to see out your right side of your plane instead of just turning further left.
What do you guys think of this?
Definitely YES !
czpetr
249 Squadron "Gold Coast" =CHQ= Tangmere Wing
[ 11-07-2001: Message edited by: Czpetr ]
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Would I like to have an option to have the cockpit instruments displayed in metric. Personally, no. This dumb Marylander never really was any good at converting from metric to whatever the hell our system is called. It'd be nice to have for those from countries where metric is the system (which is practically every other country in the world).
Would I like to see the view system changed? Again, not particularly. It serves it purpose very well, in my opinion. I wouldn't even really recommend changing that odd way your head can look from over one shoulder to over the other, because that would probably necisitate the changing of the dead 6 view, which I actually like (even though I realize it is physically impossible to turn your head 180 degrees and stare behind you, it IS damn convienient, which is why I like it).
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Enable outside of the AC views please. And I would like a loud automated warning when someone is about to attack me so I can do somethin else while I climbout and have an indicator of an oncoming attack.
thx
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And this extra artwork would be turned out by whom? And you would be willing to sacrifice what upcoming planes instead? This stuff doesn't come out of thin air. Frankly, I want to see more planes and vehicles, more new feature.
Not to mention the fact that AH doesn't use 2D cockpits. It's not "cockpit art", its the actual 3D shape. You can't just "slide a different bitmap in there", it's not that simple. I don't expect to see metric guages or "realistic cockpit art" based on the fact that AH uses real 3D object and simply places your viewpoint inside the "seat" area. It's why their fantastic view system works so well. I can't imagine it would be trivial to re-design the 3d object for every plane and vehicle in the game with a different cockpit. That just doesn't sound feasible, even if it was desirable.
Actually, you can just slide a differentbitmap in there.
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.
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The problem with this, Hitech says, is about texture memories and download file sizes. Otherwise, there are people waiting here in the AH community who will jump immediately into this matter and remake the cockpit guage BMPs if given just half the chance.
It may not be a totally new cockpit, but just "sliding in a different bitmap" for the generic ones we have just might be a compromise and a solution.
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Can't do any head movement restrictions unless HTC gets rid of 'Instant' view mode.
I like to use snap view myself, becuase you sometimes catch a glimpce of a bandit as your head moves from one view to the next. In Instant mode, you might not see the bandit if he's not in the zone you are looking at.
I would certainly be for removeing the way you can move your head through 360 degrees in either direction, but then it comes down to who has the best gaming HARDWARE and then having an unfair advantage.
Funny thing, if you use Track IR in pan mode,.. you have that restriction built in already.
Some guys are still using keyboards and hats to change views, and if you make view panning too slow, there will be whiners that say "Hey I can turn my head WAY faster in real life" make it too fast, and people will whine "Hey, no way a guy could look over his shoulder SO Fast if he was pulling 4Gs"
Unfortunately, I think we are stuck with what we have until HTC changes the game so that view switching only works with TrackIR :)
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As far as the head movement I could care less, but leave the metric stuff OFF.
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Any change in the way the game looks would be refreshing.
I agree with changing the view systym for more realism.
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Even though I'm not particularly familiar with the metric system entirely,being raised on the English system, I'd like something in AH which resembles what Kweassa posted ,all I can say is wow! That would add much more immersion if the instrument panels looked like that.
Miko more people want accurate cockpits than you think thing is most just don't post in the BBS for the ussual harrassment done in these boards.
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Nice pics Kweassa!!! :eek:
I strongly support your point!
About six 'o clock wiew, it's an old story....Have a look to this poll (http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=5709) ,
to the results (http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=5798)
and comments. (http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=5961)
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Add one vote to NO for both :)
There , that was easy :D
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I would like more maps , more gv's and more ships . In that order .
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It's just silly.
To worry about head movement on a view system that is already horribly unrealistic is a waste of time.
When we have 200+ degrees of vision and three-dimensional binocular vision, then we can start worrying about head spins.
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Originally posted by Seeker
Sounds great, if and when mirrors are modelled for those that had them.
Mirrors in the real deal were useless and distracting. In the reduced res of a computer game the mirrors would be absolutely pointless.
Accarding to one RAF pilot from the Battle of Britain, a 109 was about the width of a dash on a type writer when within range and viewed in the mirror. About this visible:
_
Now extrapolate that down to account for the wide angle lense and reduced resolution in a computer game and it migt be a single pixel.
Maybe two.
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Useless? As in it’s better to crane your neck every single time compared to shifting your eyes up to a mirror?
Certainly using both in conjunction is a advantage, not useless. I think the Israel Air Force has a good opinion on it at least regarding real life.
And in a game, you'd see the icons.
Why all the excuses to argue a gameplay feature additions?
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Well some requested features, no matter how good-natured, are worth arguing against. The request for unrealistically harsh engine temp damage is one that comes to mind.
Mirrors...well if they showed ICONS then they might be useful (I assumed any mirror modeled in AH would NOT show ICONS). Of course it might also be terribly distracting so we'd have to see it to judge it.
I mirror in AH without ICONS would definately be useless.
J_A_B
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Arguing other topics sums up your intent. Your assumptions are nearly as pointless.
Saying “a mirror without icons is useless “ might garner some debate from the no icon realism arena crowds.
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What intent?
J_A_B
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Im sorry, 'point' I meant?
Same result.
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So my argument is pointless because I assume if modeled, they wouldn't show the ICONS?
Perhaps. Depends on how HTC desides to implement them (which I have no doubt they will at some future date).
J_A_B
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yes
And your doubts are why you don't warrent valid updates.
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Is this thread still about scanning 6? =)
If you tilt yer head back you can scan 360.
--)-FLS----
Musketeers
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Or fall right off your comfy computer chair....
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I made a grammatical error Creamo....I left a word out (I fixed it).
J_A_B
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Im pretty sure Im so blasted, I did not notice.
(http://images.packers.com/pg/2002-11-04/photo9.jpg)
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Ooops,
[size=10]GO PACKERS[/size]
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Creamo, can you show me the source in the Israeli Airforce that mention how useful mirrors are ?
Thanks
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why screw with what works...
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Kweassa
Did you do those bitmaps of the guages? They are very good - are they available somewhere please? (I mean like Mitsus' soundpack is).
Achttag
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"I saw a little dot in my mirror at twelve o'clock," Beurling replied calmly. "I knew that if I said anything on the R/T the chances of our whole section turning around quickly enough weren't very good. That spot would have disappeared. So I peeled off, climbed and got behind him. I was to his left and behind, and I could see my shots going into the rear of his cockpit. The FW went down in flames.
Notwithstanding such tales of Beurling's "super vision", his account of shooting down an enemy aircraft without anyone else realizing it seemed farfetched. More importantly, without an eyewitness the only possible evidence that could be used to support his claim would be if the movie camera in his Spitfire, which operated when the machine guns were fired, had recorded the event.
"By golly", said Monty afterwards, "the film clearly showed the aircraft being shot down. He had spotted this dot, peeled off, got behind it and got back into position without anybody knowing what had happened.""
http://www.accessweb.com/users/mconstab/beurling.htm
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"Looking to the direction of the noise I saw a huge, ragged hole in the right wing trailing fire, and in my rear view mirror I saw three Russian fighter aircraft directly on my tail with all guns blazing! I later identified them as YAK-16s. Dropping my fuel tanks and adding full power, I started a steep, climbing right turn. It was too late. I continued to take more hits and I knew the F-5 was doomed when flames came into the cockpit."
http://p38assn.org/stories_01-02.htm
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"MacDonald had already turned back but the Mitsubishi flew for the kill. Lindbergh rammed rpm forward and throttle; to the firewall; the Lightning surging forward but the enemy craft still grew larger in his mirror, now within gun range. Realizing the futility of trying to outrun the Zero and too low to dive, the civilian continued turning, denying a no deflection shot at his pursuer while he hunched low in the seat and its armor plating. Lindbergh remembered his family with startling clarity as the Zero; nose and wings sparkled with gunfire."
http://www.charleslindbergh.com/wwii/
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"The Hurricane's visibility was pretty good, except above and below to the rear. The mirror was useful, but not as effective as it might have been. I replaced mine with a curved rear-view mirror, and felt that it gave me a touch extra speed besides giving a better view."
http://www.battleofbritain.net/section-5/page-64.html
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"-How good was visibility toward the rear in the P-51B?
-I had a mirror outside the cockpit.
-Were those mirrors very effective?
-[shakes his head] The mirror had no adjustment. I tell you that you could not see anything. They should have just taken the mirror off! [laughs] In the P-51D the mirror had no use at all, but it was a million times better than in the B plane.
-So it was still bad in the P-51D?
-Yes.
-Why was the mirror bad?
-Because it was useless in the air!
-In the P-51D, with the bubble canopy, could you just turn your head and look back? Or did the head rest obscure a lot of the view?
-In the P-51D you could look back, yeah.
-It was good?
-Yeah, yeah.
-So the fact that you had a backrest there did not obstruct the view a lot?
-Yeah.
-But in the P-51B, if you turned back, could you see anything?
-In the B plane you could see nothing. Nothing.
-Could you see better in the P-51C than on the B?
-Much, much better.
-So the Spitfire kind of canopy helped a lot?
-Yes. You could turn your head and look back."
http://home.insightbb.com/~j.dapena/cohen/interview.html
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"Very early production Corsairs were equipped with the Brownscope wide-angle rear-view periscope system, which was shortly replaced by a mirror in a small "bubble" in the sliding canopy. "
http://usfighter.tripod.com/f4u.htm
Jets w/ mirrors:
http://storm.webvis.net/scrap016.jpg
http://storm.webvis.net/scrap018.jpg
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From: http://www.il2sturmovik.com/forgotten_battles/fb_development.php
Hurricane w/ mirror (http://www.il2sturmovik.com/forgotten_battles/screenshots/mirror2_small.jpg)
La7 with Mirror (http://www.il2sturmovik.com/forgotten_battles/screenshots/mirror1_small.jpg)
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Originally posted by Oedipus
My, oh my. Hblair has definately changed. Don't mind me. :D I found this while looking for info on rear view mirrors in AH. I chuckled to myself reading Hblairs posts after just having a recent, but opposite, exchange ourselves.
Oed
I think these are all the posts I made in that thread you're refering to. I was simply trying to make a point. My message was engine toggling is less gamey than other concessions...
And while you're at it ask him if he could take his head off his shoulders and set it on the dash facing backwards to get a good six view.
Of course they wouldn't oedipus, they were in a slightly different situation. They couldn't just hop right back in the plane after they were killed. We can though. What's realistic about being able to replane after you just lost your life ?
When your life is at stake I would think you would fly a little more cautiously wouldn't you? Do you think tactics that were actually possible in rea life should be done away with in this game simply because they were too high a risk for a real life WWII pilot? You're for "dummying down" something that is possible simply because it was risky in real life?
What about goons wandering into enemy territory by themselves?
What about spit 109E's fighting ME262's in the same arena?
The list could go on and on. You guys just need to adapt. I know that's a tough pill to swallow, but the sooner the better.
Oedipus, exactly what difference is there in decceleration between cutting engine and throttling back? You don't know?
What of sitting your head on the dash for a six view? Ammo counters? etc. etc.
You don't even know if cutting engine even offers an advantage. So what's the point?
Maybe this left you with the impression I was all about the gaming stuff..
I don't care much about the ammo counters, dash head, etc. I realize there's gotta be concessions.
As for the engine cutting...
I said I didn't care much about the "dash head". That's about as liberal as I got. The main reason with me not caring about the dash head is I know it won't change. Go digging up the old radar threads if you want to see me arguing about gameplay. ;)
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How convenient.
BTW, what is an oedipus?
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Head spinning? Methinks maybe hblair has bad childhood memories of his sister Linda. :p
But seriously it works good like it is... if it ain't broke don't fix it. If you want to limit the views even more than they already are save it for the 'ultra real' arena I keep hearing about. Although if you are in a 'real' plane looking around you could already see better than you can in AH.
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I really used to have an aunt named Linda Blair. :)
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OUCH! :eek: Did she like Pea Soup? :D
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Originally posted by Oedipus
Hblair, I'm just an ornery m_____fu__er.
And there's nothing convenient about my not being able to sort your Arlo-esque post. Try using a lot less of the vBB quote function and divide what your points clearly.
Oed
Naahh, You just need to adapt to the way we do things 'round heah. ;)