Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: StSanta on September 03, 2000, 05:00:00 AM
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Think it was yesterday when HT was in arena, and he gave us a little scoop on upcoming v1.04.
Please; constructive thoughts/praise/criticism on the following *concept* only (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
They're gonna implement something called Combat Trim, which basically is engaged when other forms of autopilot is not. This automatically trims the plane and thusly reduces the workload of the pilot.
One will be able to turn it off totally, or it'll be disabled if trim input is inserted, as long as it is added.
My thoughts on it, seen from a LW perspective:
In the G10, it will benefit the pilot greatly, since the G10 has the worst trim characteristics in the sim. On the other hand, because of poor elevator authority, I sometimes use trim back to squeeze a few extra seconds off a pullup or turn. But overall, it'll help the G10 pilot.
For an A8/A5 pilot, it's not good news. One of the strengths of the A8 is its incredible stability in terms of trim. This advantage would effectively be negated by the introduction of Combat Trim, which is a bit unfair. It'd be akin to lowering the space between gunsight and cowl in an F4U, making snapshots more difficult.
Regardless of this, I think that it won't make much of a difference to the experienced pilot one way or another. It will help newbies a lot though, and given that one has the option of turning it off, an introduction might be annoying to some of us, but probably beneficial in the long run - relatively minor "modification"/"help" will result in many more newbies staying.
HT explicitly stated that we are not talking about an EZ Mode fm, and his word is good enough for me.
So the benefits/drawbacks are somewhat obvious; planes with bad trim characteristics get a boost, planes with good ones sees a reduction of advantage (small but still) against aforementioned aircraft.
Heh, changed fm, no icons when enemy below nose, new Lancaster and German bomber. Methinks 1.04 will renew this game quite much (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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StSanta
JG54 "Grünherz"
"If you died a stones throw from your wingie; you did no wrong". - Hangtime
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Yep, I was there when HT dropped the bomb. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
And before I make any hasty conclusions, I'd like to try the CT myself. But I believe you've assumed correctly, Santa.
Camo
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Camouflage
XO, Lentolaivue 34
www.muodos.fi/LLv34 (http://www.muodos.fi/LLv34)
Brewster into AH!
"The really good pilots use their superior judgement to keep them out of situations
where they might be required to demonstrate their superior skill."
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Where are the 'realism' folks when we need them??!!
Or is it that 'realism' is only an issue when it suits their purposes...whatever that may be?
If there is a need for a cheat to remove the effects of an out of trim setting, why model trim in the first place?
And more importantly, why continue this misconception that trim somehow improves turn performance?
Andy
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Well, I guess it will be good for the Bottom Line. Managing trim is probably the biggest obstacle to new players.
OTOH, since managing trim is a part of RL flight, I always considered it a skill, rather than a "necessary evil", something that gives an edge to the player who learns to do it well. I tend to agree with Andy that this is a step away from realism.
Have to withold judgement until we have a chance to try it.
popeye
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Andy, not saying trim helps turn performance...
But when you're fast in g10, controls lock up. You only have very little elevator authority. By using trim keys, I can control my plane and turn "more".
Sorry if I wasn't clear about that.
About the trim, think I've said it already. I hated trim when I first got here, but am used to it now. I still think I have a valid (if minor) point regarding negating the difference in trim characteristics (to my advantage in g10, and disadvantage in a8).
As far as I see it, it's a quite minor change, and will not have much of an impact on seasoned fliers. It might detract from "realism" a little bit, but I believe more newbies will stay and that the sacrifice is quite small compared to the benefits.
Still, when two seasoned good pilots meet, one in say a8 and one in g10, the a8 will have lost an edge, unless the g10 pilots is flying with it on.
Too early to speculate, but still I am. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif).
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StSanta
JG54 "Grünherz"
"If you died a stones throw from your wingie; you did no wrong". - Hangtime
[This message has been edited by StSanta (edited 09-03-2000).]
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My .02 (always have to toss it in it seems).
I found trim to be a minor hurtle coming from a "game" that did not even model torque for starters. I've always felt that trim itself was a good add-on for realisim but that in WB's and even here in AH it was a bit "unreal" in that I could literally fly the plane with just trim. I hate to use the word "gimmick" but trim has always felt like a feature used to make the sim harder to a certain extent for the sake of making adding to the learning curve. Not entirely a bad thing mind you. But not that it made it more "real." I say not real due for the most part because we have trim, or even certain trim tabs, on aircraft that did not have them or if they did they were not adjustable in flight.
So after almost a year I've gotten so used to trim that I manage it without much conscious thought. I usually think about it whane I'm 50 feet off the ground and I ry and turn and pancake. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
I'm glad trim is modelled here. I wish it was a bit more specific for each aircraqft based on it's RL use. As for adding combat trim. Like 'padlock' I'lll with hold any negative, or positive, comment till I've seen it for a week or so. If it brings more folks to the Aces High and doesn't compromise what I feel is the solid integrity of AH then I'm all for it.
We lived through easy takeoff, we can live thru combat trim - I think (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
-Westy
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Santa
Roger that!!
But what is the meaning of 'good-bad' in this?
>>So the benefits/drawbacks are somewhat obvious; planes with bad trim characteristics get a boost, planes with good ones sees a reduction of advantage (small but still) against aforementioned aircraft.<<
Andy
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Fly-wy-wire autotrim?.
I will give it a chance, but for me it is NOT realistic, and it is a EZ feature.
And you all know what did I promise if EZ things are included in Aces High.
Maybe this is my last version of Aces High. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
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Hi all,
Sorry but I can't see how this is going to do anything but hurt AH. I get this feeling that AH is slowly creeping toward a FA/MSCFS kinda sim.
First we get the auto takeoff feature, then the padlock thing comes up, now this. I get killed alot in the arena and thats Ok, as long as I know I was beaten by pilot skill not some computer aid. If this Combat trim is Ok then what is next? Otto? Or how about auto landing and maybe an automatic merge control because that's where most guys lose the fight anyway.
I see ideas like this as a step backwards not as progress. However I also know that fewer and fewer people are willing to take the time to learn to fly a really good flight sim and so the emphisis is on making it easier as opposed to more realistic. Unforunatly that is just the economics of the game (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
Sharky
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Yeesh RAM, calm down will ya. This Combat Trim will have a button, like no tracers or auto-take off. You can turn it on, or do what I'm gonna do; leave it O-F-F. Newbies will have an actual chance in a dogfight here with this. What it doesn't give them is speed, altitude, or the ability to throw their plane into a falling leaf stall. I've gotten around guys [Linx] with several tricks you can't pull with an auto-trim feature.
Pull the nose up, wait until you're vertical, then belt the nose over hard. Auto-trim would cancel out the instability, making an easy shot for the guy riding up your 6. I got him once with a falling leaf stall. You can't do that with auto-trim, since it will make your plane fly a lot more stable.
Instability is where you get some great maneuvers. Just letting the aircraft wobble all over can, and will, throw off the accuracy of the guy firing at you. This will make it easier for new guys, but will give people that've been here since BETA [you, me, and others] some easy targets.
No wobbling, no errant moves, just smooth flying and fighting. Perfect targets since there's no errant jerks in the trim. If he kicks his nose over the wings won't wobble like normal. So it looks like a perfect nose-over to you and everyone else. A nice stable target, flown by a new guy.
RAM, I'm with you on one point. If Easy Mode comes to Aces High it belongs in another arena, offline, or not at all.
Flakbait
Delta 6's Flight School (http://www.worldaccessnet.com/~delta6)
[This message has been edited by flakbait (edited 09-03-2000).]
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Originally posted by flakbait:
Yeesh RAM, calm down will ya. This Combat Trim will have a button, like no tracers or auto-take off. You can turn it on, or do what I'm gonna do; leave it O-F-F
Autotakeoff can be turned off if some stick input happens.
I am guessing here ,but this "combat" autotrim...can it be engaged and disengaged on flight or on land only?...
If it is the first, then I stay in my word. it is EZ and it means my exit from AH (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
If it is not, then I will give it a try offline and see what happens.
Still I dont like it. Autotakeoff doesnt kill people. Autotrims will do. Fw190s are stable aircraft that benefit from good stability with few trim input.
I dont understand why a G10 can be as stable as a 190 if the pilot doesnt make it possible.
Sorry but I am all against the incorporation of this feature. We'll see, but my fears are becoming slowly true (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
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WW2Online open bete in october "unofficial"
Who care on auto trim, MG models, P-47 that turn like a spit, HO, F4U-C cannons, and many more...????
AH is not in develepment IMO, 1 year and only 2 bombers, only late war planes, no one can tell us if early war plane will be introduced in a short time, i will cancel my account at the end of this month, who know maybe i can come back in 3 years and probably i can find a more complete game whit all these bugs fixed and a planeset scenarios friendly but now it's not time to waste money.
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Slightly off-topic... but didn't some LW aircraft have some form of auto trim? I was watching a program once that discussed restoration of a 190(?)... they mentioned that the only thing they couldn't restore was the "computer" for the trim. Nobody really knew how it worked. They simply bypassed it and did it manually.
I really wish I'd paid more attention to that show.
AKDejaVu
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Personally, I like this combat trim thing.
I do not have HOTAS and it is EXTREMELY hard, bordering on impossible to control the plane after a 10k dive when following a con, then leveling at the deck and watching the other guy do evasives... and my plane just CANT do a freaking thing because the trim is WAY off. Most of the times it will just roll over by itself and auger me or make me break off from the fight.
"Realism" here is really hard to put in, as real pilots had a lot of things with which to counter these problems... HOTAS pilots have a good equivalent of it too. But us 4 button/hat stick - keyboard players just dont have the chance.
I would say HTC to allow a toggle for that. If HOTAS players WANT to have their trim like it is now, they can keep it that way. Non-Hotas can turn on that combat trim thing. It will give everyone a FAIR chance in the skies.
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Hmmmmmmmm..
I'm against the addition of auto-any-damn- thing.
Anybody here play poker?? Put everybody in a Dick Nixon mask and deal a hand of 5 card draw. You can still play, but what makes LIVE poker great and the virtual kind dry and boring is the NUANCES that accompany play with a skilled adversary.
IMHO, putting the described and proposed auto trim into a combat A/C is like making everybody look, act, dress, think and talk alike. Welcome to Mao's Fighter World.
Instead of it being a value-added feature, I'd consider it being an insult to those that have invested the time and effort into learning how to fly combat A/C to and beyond it's limits in a do-or-die enviornment.
Of course, my initial reaction is very negative; and thats unfair to the developer. Surely, we oughta give it a try before roundly condemming it.
Of course, Marx found it unfair to have his ideas jumped on prior to acceptance.... I wonder what woulda happened if we all were forced to 'give it a try'.
I suspect that if this feature appears, it's here to stay. The sim deserves FM refinement, not novice crutch equalisers.
Hang
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Im guessing that this can be turned off (padlock view, and easymode). I should get some better players to shoot at in H2H (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
I have to say. I find it funny that people bring up ezmode take offs, which have very little impact on the game. Yet have never said a word about the ezmode guns.
[This message has been edited by easymo (edited 09-03-2000).]
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Hey Andy (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
The meaning of good and bad in it is that in the G10, my workload is much higher than in the A8 due to constant trimming. Elevator and aileron out of trim can be dealt with by proper stick input (but, I must say that on more than a few occasions have I missed a shot as I ease up on the stick in a firing solution), but rudder slip is especially treacherous. Granted, you can use rudder pedals to fix it, but until you notice it, you will have lost plenty of speed in a slip.
In the A8, I very rarely touch any trim buttons.
So, this is what I mean with good and bad. The G10 (pilot) gets a boost because workload is reduced and no irritating loss of speed due to slipping, and the A8 pilot loses one of his advantages since all planes will have superb trim characteristics with CT.
I'll wait with my judgement until it is implemented, but it doesn't look that bad. I'll fly without it anyhow.
As flakbait has indicated, there'll be some drawbacks on using it; you might not be able to push the envelope so far.
But, I can understand Hangtime's point too; I've also invested lots of time into making trim second nature and I believe good trim handling can win you some e.
Also looked at how Hristo use autopilot to quickly trim his plane during a fight. Either way works if you have trained it, and this training might *or might not* have been wasted, depending on whether CT will disallow those flipping throwing off aim movements the great pilots like citabria, hblair etc have.
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StSanta
JG54 "Grünherz"
"If you died a stones throw from your wingie; you did no wrong". - Hangtime
[This message has been edited by StSanta (edited 09-03-2000).]
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I wasn't to keen on auto (er, combat) trim when I heard about it either. Real planes would swerve and roll over from torque and the trim inputs were pretty strong to be able to handle the plane at different speeds. I like the FM as it is now. It's the only sim I've seen that hasn't dumbed down the FM to the point of Space Invaders.
I also understand that AH is a business and that too "hard" of a flight model discourages newbies. My guess is they've been looking at the number of 2-week trials vs. subscriptions and finding a discrepancy. This is only a guess. So if it helps HTC to get or retain more players, we have to see it from their perspective.
On the other hand, I was pretty pissed when I found out that EZ mode had been available in the WB MA and that I had been flying against pilots who had a significant advantage. WB's EZ mode extended performance though - lowered stall speeds, improved cornering, etc. If CT is strictly trim, then it won't be as bad, but it still is a dumbing down of the FM IMHO.
If a guy on combat trim can out turn, out zoom, or out anything a guy in an identical plane with CT turned off, then I'm out right then and there.
I would hope that a control gets added where combat trim becomes unavailable once a pilot gets a certain rank or number of kills.
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Erm if I am reading this right then combat trim will be a crutch that can be turned on and off as a menu option? also that its effects will not give combat trim users (ie new players) not give any performance advantage over users with combat trim off? if anything it will allow new players (who I have seen many in various forums and online) saying how AH's FM is hard to learn and lets face it not all players have come from other sims like many of us and have invested in a HOTAS system over the years so why not cut them some slack, this is not EZ mode in the same respect as Warbirds Ezmode just a helper for those new players, if they choose to turn it off later its up to them but if they don't the way I read it is that they will be penalised with less performance than those with combat trim switched off.
VISCONTI> You may be interested to hear that I asked HT (yesterday I think it was) about early war planes, it was a question I asked for the SimHQ question time that was run a few months back..I asked then if more early war stuff would be worked on and he answered in the affirmative then and he repeated that affirmation last night online when I asked if earlywar planes would be introduced in the next few versions as I'm sure I am not the only one fed up with constant requests for the latest uber planes to be added. I also sometimes despair to think that some of these requests for obscure uber planes are made just to be 'different' when I would like to see more mainstream early war planes duking it out in the MA such as the 109E or Spit Ia or early P51's and so forth.
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"if they choose to turn it off later". O come on now. This is a pandora,s box. once its open, thats it.
People complain about icons. Well, right now you can turn them off. How many will claim they do this, when eveybody else has them on.
I have one suggestion. In WB I could turn fight a spit with an A8, if he were in FR and I was in ezmode. I did this with throttel control and mostly flaps.
If CT bears any resemblance to EZ mode. They should set it so the flaps dont work if CT is on.
[This message has been edited by easymo (edited 09-03-2000).]
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Originally posted by Tac:
I do not have HOTAS and it is EXTREMELY hard, bordering on impossible to control the plane after a 10k dive when following a con, then leveling at the deck and watching the other guy do evasives... and my plane just CANT do a freaking thing because the trim is WAY off. Most of the times it will just roll over by itself and auger me or make me break off from the fight.
Then use autotrim in angle. Been there, done that. And I dont believe that you havent done it too. You seem to like the combat trim ,then say it. But dont support it with these arguments because they are nothing.
Autotrims are EZmode enough,auto engine management is Ezmode enough. Autotakeoff is EZmode enough...Those EZ things are MORE than all of us need.
Aces High was intended to be the hardest ,most realistic simulator in the market-that means that you WANT to do it close to the real thing. But now we see autotrim implemented...and one wonders what will be next.
"combat-damned-it-trim" will turn Aces High to a nintendo game.
And I dont pay 30$/month for a nintendo game.
[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 09-03-2000).]
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Easymo if you bothered to read my post fully you'd see that if they don't turn it off the way I read combat-trim's inclusion is that they will be penalised with less performance. I don't know why everyone is getting so bent outta shape with so little facts, lets wait and see how HTC describes combat-trim and how it will be implemented before we start spitting our dummies out and throwing teddy out of the pram. I would also consider my future in AH as I think alot will if combat-trim is implemented in the same bad way the WB EZmode was.
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Hi all,
I find myself shaking my head over this issue. The mod hasn't even come out yet to try. In other words, you guys are getting worked up over SPECULATION. You are speculating that this will make the planes fly differently than they do now. You are speculating that it will turn raw dweebs into superkillers able to fight on equal terms with the vets...... Wait a minute here... Could this possibly be the real issue??? Not that the CT will make this more of a game, but will in fact lower the kill ratios of those who have developed the ability to make large kill strings??? Could this be equivalent to protecting ones "turf" so that they maintain a spot on the top of the food chain??? I am beginning to think it might just be that.
I have seen complaints ranging from auto takeoffs, laser guns, overmodeled this and undermodeled that. The "lack" of or "over emphasis" of realism. The "neon billboards" and the range listing on screen. Folks, this IS a game. It ain't real life. There are limitation on what computers can and cannot model and simulate. You do NOT have depth perception to help determine range. You do not have the other factors such as "playing one time" and then dying to never play again. You are given choices of what plane to fly and what you would do once you "enlisted". If you want REAL realism then play like it is real. Once you die you can never play again. You join a country and take the plane you are ordered to take. You fly the missions you are ordered to fly. You do not do things or fly on your own. If you are ordered to go on a one way flight you do it. If you play like this, then you can say you are doing a realistic simulation.
Personally, I do not think "early WW2" planes will make a successful part of this game. Unless there are seperate arena's for each year in WW2. Look at what is being flown now. How many of the Spit V's do you see in MA? How many Zero's outside of last ditch base D are in the MA? These ARE early WW2 planes but the players using late model 109's, P38,s P51's, FW190's and even Mid WW2 P47's are the rule here. Even the B17 is later WW2 era with a chin turret.
The point is, everyone playing wants the "edge" in the game here. They take the "best" plane they can to give themselves as many advantages as possible. Whether it is the heaviest guns, fastest speed, best turn or highest altitude, it is all "demanded" by the players of this game.
If you don't get what you want then you become petulant and threaten to leave. HTC must be either tearing their "collective" hair out trying to please everyone or laughing histerically. This is an impossible task. Especially when the "rumors" of what the new development will "do" to the game.
People, just play the game. If you don't like something about it and it can be disabled then do so and be done with it. If you are concerned that the "playing field" is being leveled, learn how to make it unlevel again. Adapt to the changes and change your strategy, tactics or manner of flying. I would be willing to bet that any "old heads" flying the game wil be able to figure a way around the new "tweaks" in short order. If you can't and you end up dying more, so what. We ALL die in this game. Why should you be immune from it?
If HTC cannot provide for a certain amount of "churn", this game will go away. Their livelyhood depends on attracting and keeping some new payers as time goes on. If all the newbies see there is no way to be competitive in the arena they will simply leave and no new business will arrive to maintain the company. If you decide the game isn't for you then someone will come along to take your place. If this game isn't "realistic" enough for you, what is your alternative? Perhaps there is another one out there just for you.
Rant off!
Mav
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Mav
Good post. I think you have the right idea.
I too would like to see separate arenas for specific classes of aircraft. I imagine HTC would like to give us this also...but it may be too pricey.
Andy
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Mav, for me is very simple. I want a hardcore flight simulator. I understand that things like icons MUST exist, that EZgunnery in bombers is done for playability (that I share that view is other thing, tho), that you cant expect all modelled because computers ARE limited.
BUT...here we arent talking about that, here we talk about autotrim in combat, I.E. the plane will be a stable platform while you have it connected. You know what does that mean? means EZ mode. ANd computer is not an issue here, the trim is well modelled as it is now.
I dont share to make this thing available for newbies. Trim is an important thing in any plane ,and to learn to trim properly the plane is not that difficult (in fact is quite easy). A newbie will learn to fly with the damned thing on and simply wont turn it off in his life. Because when he turns it off he will find that his stable 109G10 is not any more a "STABLE" plane.
So if you put a combat trim here, what are you doing is to erase a BIG part of the challenge of Air to Air combat. The planes will do perfect turns with the pilot doing nothing to make it possible. With the new FM (planes able to turn MUCH better), this will be EAW. With a better FM, maybe, and with people online and arenas. But EAW,still.
And I wont buy a EAW each month.
You say that some eople are worried about their "part of the turf". No,I dont think so. If that is what is happening, then those guys have a simple solution, put the trim mode on, and all OK, they will still be on the high part of the "food chain" as you say. So you are putting the thing worse. It is clear that not only newbies will use this thing.
I love the challenge of air combat, and I wont put this thing on. But to know that the guy in front of me me has it and so has a marked advantage that I dont have,is simply something I wont stand.
Make it available on a EZarena or in the Training Arena, or put it nowhere. Mixed arenas are not for me. Autotrim is an EZ feature, belonging to EZarenas. If you put it on Main I'll do my packets and bags and will leave from Aces High.
And I guess I wont be the only one to do it.
I am DEEPLY concerned with this thing. We all saw what happened in Wb and EZ modes. It turned out that 60% people was flying with it on. Here will happen THE SAME. autotrim in combat will be for me a cheat mode. And I dont fly against cheaters. Period.
Ah, other thing...this is the first SERIOUS step towards EZmode. Not hard to see that it is very possible the first of a lot of steps in that direction.
My fears are coming true. And I stick with my word. I will give EZtrim a chance, if it is connectable/disconectable during flight, or if it gives a marked advantage over the thing off, then I am done in Aces High until a relaxed realism arena is created and there is no mixed realism settings in Main Arena.
[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 09-03-2000).]
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RAM> I think getting all hysterical about this combat-trim is a bit premature, hell even the trolls from AGW hav'nt picked up on it yet (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) let HTC explain combat-trim as he did with the padlock and hold our judgement till then, I too would seriously have to reconsider my subscription to AH if some form of EZmode was introduced that gave users an unfair advantage in the MA but as yet we have no proof that this is the case only rumour and speculation.
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Whoops...
It's absoulutly correct that this item has no been implemented yet.. and hence projections on impact in arena play is speculation at best...
.... however, speculation in a debate enviornment regarding a proposed feature is not detrimental to development.. I hope.
In any case, allow me to speculate that the biggest impact this will have is on gunnery. Think about it. Scary, hunh?
Next area of concern for me is trim at high speed, and fast transitions from the high speed turn and gunnery enviornment to a low speed turn and gunnery enviornment.
Then we have to consider the impact 'constant trim' will have on low speed departure charateristics.. and also it's impact on the high speed stall.
Hmmmmmmmmmmm... obviously; these are serious considerations, or am I misinterpeting the ramifications of a constant trim characteristic inclusive in the FM?
And certainly, the developers are aware of what in hell it is they intend.. I trust 'em. They seem to have done a good job so far... right?
Dunno.. but I do know that whatever it is, I'll keep an open mind. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Confused, but open.
Hang
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I don't like the idea of combat trim the way I see it working in my head. However, since I don't know how it'll work, and I haven't seen it working, I won't bother squeaking or speculating about what it may or may not do. Wait until it's here...when you actually see it, you'll truely know whether you like it or not.
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(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) Paddock , Combat Trim , lets see what else did I want when I first came ?? Oh ya , less flight time between fields . Just u wait that will be next IMO .
Sure AH guys light up BIG Cuban cigars with 100 dollar bills but I do think that the player base is not getting all that much bigger (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
Lets see more players = more money .
They just had a private placement of money into stock and then most of this stuff comes along .
Food for thought .
spro out
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Hi all,
Ok explain this to me like I'm a 4 year old.
Why is it important that a guy with next to no experiance in flight sims has to be able to compete on equal ground with someone who has been flying them for year???????
I've been flying sims for close to five years and I have become a fairly good stick. I'll put my dogfighting skills up against anyone. I may not win but the other guy will know he earned his kill. Now why is it a guy who doesn't have the first clue about energy vs angle is supposed to be able to fight me on equal terms??????
I spent a lot of time learning my skills why doesn't he have to? Why does he just get to push a button and be able to fly as well as I do???
Is this a case of money? Does HTC need an easier FM to attract new customers? IF so then fine. It's their busness and they know what they need to survive and I won't fault anyone for trying to do what they need to do to make a living (provided it's legal)
Now you may say that I don't have to use it. Thats true, but when I enter a fight I want to know that the pilot I'm facing is working against the same problems I am and is not having a big part of his workload done for him.
Im afraid that the day of good flightsims is dead. There are just not enough of us that want to do it the hard way to make it economically viable. The future of flightsims is FA2 im afraid (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
Well I'll wait and see but I have a bad feeling about this.
Sharky
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"Then use autotrim in angle. Been there, done that. And I dont believe that you havent done it too. You seem to like the combat trim ,then say it. But dont support it with these arguments because they are nothing."
You CANT use trim in angle or ANY kind of trim when you are following a turning, evading con youve been following from high alt to the deck.
"I love the challenge of air combat, and I wont put this thing on. But to know that the guy in front of me me has it and so has a marked advantage that I dont have,is simply something I wont stand. "
So you telling me that the guy with the HOTAS and RW setup doesnt have a *distinct* advantage over the non-hotas, non-rw player?. While my plane craps out because of trim as I follow, the HOTAS equipped player has an easy time compensating for the trim thats fighting against him.
Trim is THE main reason why I dont fly such great planes like the 109. Even the Yak, a plane that doesnt "trim out" that much after a long dive still flips me over in the deck if I ease on the stick or center my rudder (with keyboard) to get a shot... the moment I do that it will flip over on its own.
I don't know if you use HOTAS or not RAM, but it seems to me that you do. If you dont, then let me know what kind of mega-precision joystick or keyboard you are using, i'll need to steal one of those.
"Now why is it a guy who doesn't have the first clue about energy vs angle is supposed to be able to fight me on equal terms??????"
I believe that is why HTC may not want to make newbie arenas. In my opinion, putting them with skilled people will make them learn a LOT faster, and the community here is very supportive. If it worked for me, the most pathetic ACM when I came in and 3 or 4 weeks later I managed to get multi kill sorties thanks to trainers and other who kindly let me join their planes to watch how they flew...it will work for anyone.
The combat trim will not make newbies be on equal terms with the pros. In my opinion, it will give everyone a fair chance at the controls of the plane (aka hotas-vs-non-hotas).
[This message has been edited by Tac (edited 09-03-2000).]
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You CANT use trim in angle or ANY kind of trim when you are following a turning, evading con youve been following from high alt to the deck.
But you CAN use it while you are diving and/or climbing. And in the turns you dont need a lot of trim.
So you telling me that the guy with the HOTAS and RW setup doesnt have a *distinct* advantage over the non-hotas, non-rw player?. While my plane craps out because of trim as I follow, the HOTAS equipped player has an easy time compensating for the trim thats fighting against him.
yes, I dont use RW (my english is awful)-And yes,I dont have HOTAS...
Still the HOTAS guy has an advantage. BUT the HOTAS guy has no guilt because you haven't it!!!, If you want it go to a shop and buy them, if you can, or stick with what you have, as I do.
Trim is THE main reason why I dont fly such great planes like the 109. Even the Yak, a plane that doesnt "trim out" that much after a long dive still flips me over in the deck if I ease on the stick or center my rudder (with keyboard) to get a shot... the moment I do that it will flip over on its own.
You dont fly 109 because you DONT WANT. 2 months ago I had a CH virtual pilot joke...er yoke.2 buttons, one of them working very bad, and a little thrust stick. TM elite rudder pedals. Nothing else.
I flew G10 as soon as I got the rudders,wich was only 3 months after starting here. I flew G10 well trimming it with keyboard only and tracking cons with keys. And I did VERY well in it.
If you dont fly G10 is because you cant, or you dont want. As easy as that.
I don't know if you use HOTAS or not RAM, but it seems to me that you do.
ROFL!
If you dont, then let me know what kind of mega-precision joystick or keyboard you are using, i'll need to steal one of those.
F16 combat stick, sent by Saw (THANKS SAW!!!!) when I started having SERIOUS spiking troubles with my yoke (breaking 190 wings in 350 IAS 3G pullouts, go figure).
And TM Rudder pedals.
I keep track on enemies with KEYBOARD. I think still that I wont use padlock, as I do well with them. But I understand that people with 2 button sticks as me not so long ago, would welcome a padlock.
But TO TRIM, sir, KEYS WORK JUST FINE. Autotrim in angle trims the plane during fast changes of speed and rudder trim is ALL you nead in close turnfights. Maybe a bit of elevator (2 or 3 touches of key)too. I know it well. I know how do I trim my plane.
Useless excuses, tac. That is all you gave here.
"Now why is it a guy who doesn't have the first clue about energy vs angle is supposed to be able to fight me on equal terms??????"
I believe that is why HTC may not want to make newbie arenas. In my opinion, putting them with skilled people will make them learn a LOT faster, and the community here is very supportive. If it worked for me, the most pathetic ACM when I came in and 3 or 4 weeks later I managed to get multi kill sorties thanks to trainers and other who kindly let me join their planes to watch how they flew...it will work for anyone.
The combat trim will not make newbies be on equal terms with the pros. In my opinion, it will give everyone a fair chance at the controls of the plane (aka hotas-vs-non-hotas).[/QUOTE]
OH LOL!...the problem is that this thing is not going to be used by newbies, yah know. A lot of scorepotatos will use it.
Damnit even normal guys will do it.
This is a BIG can of worms, and HTC is about to open it...
I will give it a chance. Not a big one, tho. If I see what I fear then I'll go, is easy.
They have the right to do their bussiness their way, and I salute them for it. But I have the right to go when I start to dislike things a lot. As I said some months ago I will go with no problems and with no hard feelings. THey must earn money.
But with EZtrims, they wont earn MY money. Sorry if I sound a bit harsh but it is like that.
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Originally posted by Revvin:
let HTC explain combat-trim as he did with the padlock and hold our judgement till then.
Revvin, lets see. Padlock can be discussed or not discussed, But for sure a pilot in WWII didnt have to press 5-2 in the numeric keypad of his plane controls to see the con in his high 6. People here have to do it. And so a padlock have a (relative) ammount of realism involved. I wont use it, that for sure, still I think is not **THAT** bad.
But in WWII planes had to be trimmed. So I expect planes that need to be trimmed here. If a EZ thing ruins that then will ruin my fun too, because it breaks what AH is for me, the most challenging sim ever.
But, while I like challenge, I dont like cheats. And EZtrim will be just that. A completely unrealistic cheating mode.
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I really hope this sim isn't gonna be a FAII game with 30$/month...
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Uhhh nevermind.
Wab
[This message has been edited by AKWabbit (edited 09-03-2000).]
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Aces High has auto trim. It has trim keys. It has auto fuel management. It seems to me that too many newbies want to be able to engage anyone, and come out on top on the basis of their agressiveness instead of planning, tactics, and flying skill. I use a microsoft Sidewinder 3d pro that i bought used for 25 bucks, and I use the kb for trim and views. I do better without a Hotas. Maybe some of the newbies should learn to live with the consequences of being too agressive. If you engage someone with superior skill, equiptment, altitude, numbers, and tactics, you deserve to loose. If these people can't learn to live with a fair playing field, then they'll quit no matter how easy the flight model is. Hitech Creations can add mods to make it easier, and the better players will still win regardless, and the people that don't want to learn to fly will just keep complaining. They'll quit anyway, and the core of avid sim people will be gone too since it's no more a sim. It's too bad the flight sim companies seem to think that they can make billions on simulators. it just never happens because there aren't THAT many people that are into aviation enough to stick with it, and the short-attention-span arial pitbulls get tired of jumping fangs first into a meat grinder time and time again since they don't want to learn to fly.
Hopefully a day will come when a company like this will run without dreams of cashing in. I "think"that's how Hitech Creations started, and I'm pretty sure that Warbirds started the same way. Sims come and go, and if Aces High does too, then maybe WW2 OL will hold the hardcore sim fan's attention for a while. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
In closing, I just want to thank the creators of this sim for the time that I've already spent in it, and the fun that I've already had, beause no Auto-Compat-Trim-Gunner-Bail feature will ever take that away from me. I look forward to more fun with Aces High, and whatever sim that can top it.
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I use shift-x to establish proper trim settings for specific speeds and loadouts, so that I can later manually set them and be accurate at dive-speed for bombing. This is in fact more accurate than the proposed combat trim can ever be, from the basis of objections stated here I supposed we should get rid of x, alt-x and shift-x?
Even in furballs I prefer my trim static, so I know what I'm dealing with in regards to elev and roll. I assume most "advanced" pilots are either in this catagory or like to trim on the fly according to their preferences. I more than likely won't be using combat trim, as it is a system that by design will be inaccurate, but I see it as immensly helpful to the poor guy trying to learn how to fly.
Of course I could be wrong, perhaps we shouldn't be able to magicly hit 'X' and have our plane go in a straight line like us cheaters have been doing.
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Fatty
Fat Drunk Bastards (http://fdb.50megs.com)
"Never before in the field of human conflict was so little owed to so few that weighed and drank so much."
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Damn. How'd this get to the extreme so fast?
What impact WILL 'combat trim' have?
Will it make gunnery more simplistic and effective? (shooting while out of trim is a missed shot)
Will it make cornering at the edge of a stall fools play?
Will spins become impossible? Simplify recovery?
I dunno.. lets find out before we wipe the hard drive for heracy.
Hang
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EZ take-off
EZ SA(padlock)(icons)
EZ Trim
EZ Radar
EZ Gunnery(bombers)
Gettin pretty damn easy.
Oops! Lizking
[This message has been edited by Gadfly (edited 09-03-2000).]
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revvin. ive heard that song before. I was very good at ezmode in WB. I read over and over how it was a disadvantage. Trust me, it was'nt. Why do you think 60% of the people left the main, over there, when they turned off the ezmode in that arena.
And BTW, let me add. Im not put out by this at all. We dont know what HT has planned for the future. Im sure there will be another arena, at some point, for the guys the want a little more challange. And you can set up an H2H arena to suit you. This does away with any real argument we might have anyway.
[This message has been edited by easymo (edited 09-03-2000).]
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Originally posted by easymo:
I was very good at ezmode in WB. (edited 09-03-2000).]
Easy..this isn't a slam on you, just replying to the thread in general.
You mean all this spouting I've heard about WB and you guys had realistic and easy modes in the same arena? hehe..sry but that's funny to me.
If a combat trim gives newer players a good learning curve then so be it. As was pointed out earlier, not everyone has a HOTAS.
As everything it will have it's up's and down's but right now flying these planes feels like they already have a combat trim. There's no "atmosphere", no wind pushing you etc (if there is, you couldn't prove it to me) so once your stable, your stable.
Either way, it's too early to pass any judgements, so just let it ride until the time comes (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Wingnut
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I was just the only guy that didnt lie about it (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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TAC, I have a 4 buttons joystick and I'm perfectly fine. I have my left hand on the stick and my right hand on the views. The trim is configured on the '4 arrows'.
Trim, I use it all the time like in real life. Auto-trim? humm I don't know, I think I will keep it manual.
I remember the EZ mode in WB, I couldn't fly it because I couldn't "ride the stall" because of the "no stall" stuff. As mostly u win a fight because of that, it was of no interest for me to use it. Maybe the auto-trim will be good for B&Z only, turn fighters will probably keep it manual.
Anyway, real pilots do everything themselfs (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) satisfaction comes from that.
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It does not take a brain surgeon to understand that a feature that automatically trims a plane throughout the flight envelope
is merely a new age version of the classic easy mode feature.
Yeager
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um-kay
ez mode is bad um-kay
screw it i dinnae mind.
I always did like x-wing vs. tie fighter
no really i do (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
make it as easy as ya want
need a new arena name for these ez features:
Aces Pong
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View of a Newbie ......
OK - what is the hardest thing to work in terms of trim for a newbie - for me it's torque. This is usually overcome with a combination of Aileron and rudder in different amounts according to the response of the aircraft at different speeds. Would I find it easier to fly if the FE could automatically trim my rudder and aileron as I dived into a merge - absolutely. Do I want it to - NO.
I came to this sim from AW because of the increased complexity of the flight model which made me feel like I had achieved something when I learned to land, take-off in a Tiffie etc. I have goals I want to achieve - people I have set my sights to beat and I know that to do it is going to need time, effort and some expense (rudder pedals, decent graphics card etc.).
I think this comes down to the core discussion of who the target market is for this sim and how you attract and keep them. IMO the issue is not one of auto this and that but of training and support for the new flyer. Do HTC want gamers or people who see this as there chance to fly without the cost of a real airplane ?? Only HTC can call that one.
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I sort of feel bad for starting this thread and lots of angry posts as a result.
I think I regret making the initial post. Should have waited and seen what ct tunred out to be before voicing my concerns.
OTOH, now is the time to voice those concerns, because now they have more weight.
Talk about torn between two things.
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StSanta
JG54 "Grünherz"
"If you died a stones throw from your wingie; you did no wrong". - Hangtime
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I don't ever manually trim my plane in flight (and it probably shows in my score or dogfighting skills -- I'm sure I'm not getting the best performance out of my craft). I do use the auto-level and auto-climb though.
Since I currently never manually trim my aircraft, it sounds to me like I may gain some help from this "combat trim" feature (it is important to note that the only thing I have heard about this is from what I have read in this thread, therefore I really am not sure what "combat trim" will be).
So is combat trim a good or bad thing? I have not tried it yet, so I can only speculate. Given the fact that I do not trim my plane, I can only speculate that I would be one who would stand to gain if I started using combat trim. If the purpose is to automatically trim my plane, and I am not currently manually trimming, then I would expect to get better performance while using combat trim.
However, like padlock, I will most likely not use it.
Fury
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StSanta..
I suspect we'll have Hobson's choice.
Don't whip yerself for voicing an opinion or placing a question before the rest of us.. the ISP Secret Police already have yer name. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
We love the game, just like you do. We all guard jealously those things that make it fun for us.. and really, your thoughts and concerns are part and parcel to the process of development of the sim. Right?
Of course, this being a benevolent dictatorship; we're all due for a friendly bullet any time now. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Hang
Hob·son's choice (hbsnz chois)
n.
An apparently free choice that offers no real alternative.
[After Thomas Hobson (1544?-1630), English keeper of a livery stable, from his requirement that customers take either the horse nearest the stable door or none.]
[This message has been edited by Hangtime (edited 09-04-2000).]
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""Where are the 'realism' folks when we need them??!!""
Perhaps the realism folks slowly are givin up...
AH 1.04
*Combat trim
*FM´s gonna hold E better
*Padlock
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AH : Maniac
WB : -nr-1-
[This message has been edited by Maniac (edited 09-04-2000).]
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Ouch.
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Whine is overmodelled in this BBS (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
1st post 5:00 last 8:57 total post : 50 about a post every 5 minute...good performance (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
And
1st: we have no official annoucement (even if I trust StSanta and Camo I'll wait to read this in the news forum (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif))
2nd: who has tried it ... ?
We are reacting about Vaporware (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Regards
Fred
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Nothing new here - so you can skip this ;=)
However this could be a crossroad so in the vain hope to try and influence the future Ill have to say:
1) Ill wait and see
2) If it makes the auto trimmers better or on par than the (good) manual trimmer Im out.
3) Im pretty certain that 2) wont be the case - or if it will be patched in 24 hours heh.
IMO the same argument goes for the padlock.
Jeezz I hate these kind of posts :=P
danish
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Will it make gunnery more simplistic and effective? (shooting while out of trim is a missed shot)
Hhhmmmmmmm..........
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Vadr
Kommandeur, III/JG 2 'Richthofen' (http://www.jg2.org/)
CM, S3 Team (http://personal.smartt.com/~barbell/S3main.html)/Parser (http://www.cgidesign.net/s3/)
vadr@jg2.org
Combat Flightsim Business Forum (http://www.egroups.com/group/flightsimsonline)
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For that matter, why don't we have a "Combat Gunnery" mode that doubles the muzzle velocity and has a flat trajectory so the new players can practice their gunning skills and not be at such a disadvatage in the arena. I'm sure that once they gain confidence in their shooting skills they will turn it off and experience the thrill of actually having to WORK for a kill. Oh wait, people don't want to have to WORK for anything at $30/month.
T
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Originally posted by Fatty:
I use shift-x to establish proper trim settings for specific speeds and loadouts, so that I can later manually set them and be accurate at dive-speed for bombing. This is in fact more accurate than the proposed combat trim can ever be, from the basis of objections stated here I supposed we should get rid of x, alt-x and shift-x?
Even in furballs I prefer my trim static, so I know what I'm dealing with in regards to elev and roll. I assume most "advanced" pilots are either in this catagory or like to trim on the fly according to their preferences. I more than likely won't be using combat trim, as it is a system that by design will be inaccurate, but I see it as immensly helpful to the poor guy trying to learn how to fly.
Of course I could be wrong, perhaps we shouldn't be able to magicly hit 'X' and have our plane go in a straight line like us cheaters have been doing.
I have not read the whole thread yet. This is the first response that aligns itself with my thoughts. Well stated Fatty. <S>
Here is the gig....
For so many players, in-security comes out in blantant emotionalistic impulses (Whines). This emotional in-security arrises from the concept "DO NOT CHANGE WHAT I KNOW TOO BE TRUE".
Well sorry, that is total roadkill. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
It is BS because in all actual realitity none of it is true. Wake up! It is ALL an illusion gents. It is ALL just smoke and mirrors. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Ask yourself, why can I happily live with this tremendously UN-REALISTY FEATURE, but not this other totally UN-REALISTIC FEATURE.
-or-
Is the "reality" just my opinion vs the developers opinion as to just what is MORE REALISTIC and what is LESS REALISTIC.
If HTC had started with "Combat Trim" and then changed it to "Manual Trim" what then?
Carry On! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Mino
The Wrecking Crew
"hehehe...I like this thread squealing Bastids!"
SOB
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"I supposed we should get rid of x, alt-x and shift-x?"
Get's my vote. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
popeye
ps. As an experiment, I disabled (unmapped) the Auto Pilot modes on my setup, and flew a few sorties using manual trims only. It is defintiely more "immersive", and more "realistic" (compared to my one hour in an AT-6), but I'm not so sure it is more "fun". (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
[This message has been edited by popeye (edited 09-04-2000).]
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Take away "x", and Ill never get a chance to type inflight (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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LOL (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Actually my thoughts along those lines which are not so serious, but I feel would provide greater flight control is this:
- Give me (the player) the option of toggling control of the trim to my joystick.
- Make trim controls respond rapidly without the all irritation of delays
- I'll make my manuvers much more crisply (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Mino
The Wrecking Crew
"hehehe...I like this thread squealing Bastids!"
SOB
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Dmdbt. Pyro pointed out reacently that the ezmode guns in the ACA (WB) were weaker. Not stronger. Like WB in general this allows you to make mistake after mistake without dying.
If you want to get an idea of what 100% gunnery in AH would be like. Set up an H2H arena. Set plane gun leathialty to 100%. That would be a setting of 5.0000.
Fair warning. The game becomes much like real life. You dont want anyone to get a shot at you, AT ALL. And HO,s are instant automatic death.
As near as i can tell The main is set at 1.0000. That means the gunnery in AH is set at 20% of full realisim
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I don't claim to know what the hell I'm talking about as far as the real-life lethality of guns, but if I'm patient, and get to a reasonable range and at convergence with the 20mm on my niki, it takes just a very short burst of fire to get something major to fall off the target and send him spinning or floating back down to the earth. How many rounds would you expect it to take??? In any WWII guncam footage that I've seen, I've never seen anyone stop firing after one or two bullets...they just spray the crap out of 'em until lurch over and fall.
SOB
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I fly the nik also. And for the same reason. What you will find if you set up an arena. Is that all the guns work. including the MG,s. The 202 becomes a plane to fear like all the rest.
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Easymo where did you ever get the idea that 5.0 is 100% lethality.
1.0 is what we belive is real lethality.
HiTech
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HT. I have never heard of more then 100% of anything. If the setting is there. Then that must be 100%. If there were a 6.0000 setting.than that would become 100%
BTW thanks for the ajustable settings. So I can put in what I thinK is realsitic (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
[This message has been edited by easymo (edited 09-04-2000).]
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Hangtime:
*phew*, what you said made me feel much better, ty (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif). Never heard the phrase before, but it succintly describes what my options (or lack thereof) are.
easy, what about a 110% increase in profits for a company? They earned 10 bucks a year, now they earn 21. For lethality, 10 cannon rounds cause 10 damage, with 5.0, they cause 50 damage. Think that's the way to read it but could be wrong.
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StSanta
JG54 "Grünherz"
"If you died a stones throw from your wingie; you did no wrong". - Hangtime
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Madison ave. has done its work far to well (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)