Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: Geoserp on July 05, 2002, 12:06:48 PM
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I cant understand why people do these shots. All it does is kill you and the enemy. I dont think they are realistic at all. The Germans use to head on bumbers before the B17s came around, but not fighter to fighter.
I wish ACES HIGH would turn off the headon shots like Air Warrior did. They make the game not fun. They are not realistic and are a cheap shot from dweebs that cant fly a plane tactically.
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Geoserp,
You may not like head-on, but it is a realistic attack, and as such shouldn't be removed. It did happen in combat. If you don't wish to engage in it, pull up, dive or turn away.
Simple eh? =)
Warpig
479th Raiders
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No, try that, they just make it a point to purposefully crash into me. Its rediculous! Maybe these dweebs can go fly Warbirds? I am just SICK of head on shots, Period.
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I'm not 100% certain, but I don't think it's possible for someone to crash into another player and cause them damage in AH.
I don't know the details of how collisions are tracked in AH, but if I'm not mistaken the reality of netlag means that it's next to impossible to 'crash into someone' and have that do anything to them.
You may see them crash into you on your machine, and then you will die, however that requires you to fly into them, not them into you. If they crash into you on their machine, they will die, but the reality of netlag means that you probably saw them a hundred yards or so away and then they just exploded for some strange reason.
In other words, if they are HO'ing you, and they run into you and you die, it is your fault, even if they 'started' it, and you are trying to avoid the HO. You need to be a bit quicker on the evasives, and get your own nose off of them.
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Originally posted by Geoserp
I wish ACES HIGH would turn off the headon shots like Air Warrior did.
Uh...? Can someone explain this to me?
And there is a very very simple way to avoid the headon shot...manuver.
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Air Warrior had code so that a shot hitting from the front of the plane would do very little damage.
And yes, it is fairly easy to avoid a Head On if you really want to. I almost NEVER take a head on shot, and I refuse them when they are offered.
Note- that does NOT include a shot during a scissor, when both planes may very well be pointing close to right at one another. I'll take those, and anyone that wouldn't is silly (as long as you can take it without giving up a positional advantage).
A 'joust' on the other hand, is VERY easy to avoid, and you will typically have the positional advantage if they try to turn hard (in any plane) to get their nose back on you after missing their kamikaze shot. Geoserp, if you play in the MA you can look me up whenever. I go by Urchin in there to. I can show you some stuff that will hopefully make the Head On a little less traumatic :).
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Thanks for the advice. I DO avoid headon shots when someone comes at me with their Typhoon or Niki or other plane. Its just that sometimes even trying to avoid them, they crash into me on purpose. Its just very irritating to find these people all over the place trying headon shots and nothing more. Cant any of them fly a fighter with real combat air manuvers and not the dweeby head on shots?
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Again, the actual point is being missed. You may not LIKE the headon, but it is part of the game and a physical reality in an air combat environment. Whatever opinion anyone holds over it as an invalid or "dweeb" maneuver is irrelevent. Planes can crash into other planes. I can't simplify it more than that. And truthfully, it may not always be on purpose. You've got some quick thinking to do when 2 planes are heading towards each other at 500mph each. And you may not always make the right decision.
What if I decide that I don't like having a Focke Wulf B-n-Z me, then extend away so that I can't catch him? Should I lobby to have that maneuver removed from the game??? Nope, can't do it. Why? Because it's a valid maneuver in a combat situation. What do I do to avoid this situation? I maneuver in such a manner that the FW cannot obtain a firing solution.
Vulching has always been the pariah; through Air Warrior and into Aces High. Yes, it sucks sheep nuts to be vulched...but it's a valid maneuver, and is almost required for capturing a field. Can we have it removed? No. Why? See above.
Just avoid the head-on. You can.
*steps down from soap-box*
Warpig
(http://www.easternlifttruck.com/images/raidersml.gif)
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HOs are a reality. If I'm in a 190-A8 and I'm out of E and there is a Spit I'm tangling with, I'll HO him. Now I have my own opions concerning the ethics of HOing people in a 190A8 but it boils down to what I got. Hes in the infinately more maneuvorable plane so he should get out of my way and get on my tail not me on his. If he is unwise enough to fly head on with a 190A8 then he desves to ge wat he posiby has comig. How do you expect to get a 190A8 behind a spit in a knife fite? Spits have so many more options in a fite and room for mistakes. Sometimes the knowledge that I got 4 20mms is all you got in a 190. Right? The spit should avoid the HO and slip onto the 190s tail. The 190 should make most use of what it has.
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To avoid an HO,
Do 1 of 2 things.
1: Dive when they are 1.2 away and b n z them.
2: If you are going at least 250mph zoom above them and than dive away if they catch you after they loop.
No matter what these should work and there is NO way they have a shot on you. I hope this helps.
~BlueiceJ~
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Originally posted by Geoserp
I cant understand why people do these shots. All it does is kill you and the enemy. I dont think they are realistic at all. The Germans use to head on bumbers before the B17s came around, but not fighter to fighter.
I wish ACES HIGH would turn off the headon shots like Air Warrior did. They make the game not fun. They are not realistic and are a cheap shot from dweebs that cant fly a plane tactically.
Head on shots were a reality in combat, some of the top U.S. aces used to use it as a viable tactic when the opportunity arose.
Head on shots are also easy to avoid since it takes two to make them work. Practice using different merge tactics that takes away the opportunity for the enema's head on attempt. If you are unable to create seperation before the merge, barrel roll or skid the plane on the merge to avoid the head on shots. If you avoid the initial head on pass, you can rest with the knowledge that 9 out of 10 times the guy that tries the head on doesn't know a lick of ACM and will be easy to defeat.
(http://www.easternlifttruck.com/images/raidersml.gif)
Ack-Ack
479th FG - Riddle's Raiders
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It always amazes me to hear the banter on CH 1 about HO dweebs.
As Ak Ak said, it takes two, if you are getting hit by head on attackes, and are not returning fire (reads: not HO'ing yourself) then you are seriously screwing the pooch at the merge as HO are rediculously easy to avoid, Unless of course, it's me coming at you in a 110g2, in that case, kiss your bellybutton goodbye :D
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I came from AW as well and at first thought the HO was dweebish.But they are so easy to avoid(touch nose down and break right/left,or half roll and pull).It's a manouver I rather enjoy doing and adds spice to a co-alt engagement.And like senna said,if I'm in an A8 I'm going to use my plane's strength's(2x13mm,2x20mm,2x30mm) and make you duck or die.
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What Senna said, :)
Even if you are in doubt whether a merge will end up in a HO, maneuver out of it, if you don't want to end up in a HO.
I'm always surprised how many planes with good maneuver capacity will try to HO a 190A8, Tiffy, Hog-C or P-47. You don't want to HO those!!
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Geoserp,
I find it very hard to believe somebody crashes into you on purpose.
Collisions are tracked on the FE, meaning that you crash when you see that you crash on your FE. Because of netlag it is highly unlikely that your opponent crashes into you too when you crash into him. Actually it is more likely that he will pass you 50-200 ft (or worse) while you pass him 0-10 ft.
I collide too sometimes, when i make a high speed pass, shoot, and evade out of the opponents line too late. Every time that happened (me colliding into him) I got the damage, and I died or humped back to base with a totally messed up plane.
Plp don't collide into you on purpose because they can't predict whether you will experience that collision too on your FE (because of netlag).
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Hmm Head On shots......let me think about this one......
TAKE EM IF YOU GOT EM....like posted before they are a valid tactic...also most HO's as people call them are actually NOT....like was posted before they are a scissors maneuver and HELL yes I will take the shot....
With regards to the post.....that was about the A8 vs the Spit....I ALWAYS think twice about who my opponent is...If I am flying a flying tank and the other is flying a paper airplane...HELL YES I am gonna take the shot...however if the roles are reversed I will not attempt it.
In addition.....there is a "tad bit" of skill involved spraying your opponent with bullets then maneuvering at the last minute. I am not the best at it but I seem to do better than 50%.
DONT CHANGE A THING!!!!!!!!
If you dont like the HO's then maneuver away....:p
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I remember I was interviewing HT on the phone back before you had to pay for AH, sometime early 2000 I think, and asked him about all the complaints I'd read about "Ho's".
He told me the easiest way to dodge them, and I still use it every flight, and it's the first thing I show pals new to the game. When buddy is merging with you, at about d1.5, just unload to 0 g's, feed in a bit of roll and turn to about 10-20 degrees away from the line the two of you are merging on. It's a green day in hell when I even get pinged, much less shot down.
I'll still take a HO if I'm up against certain aircraft, and I'm in a certain aircraft however, and have no problem taking my beats when someone bests me in this endeavor, because it was MY choice to risk it.
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Originally posted by Apar
What Senna said, :)
Even if you are in doubt whether a merge will end up in a HO, maneuver out of it, if you don't want to end up in a HO.
I'm always surprised how many planes with good maneuver capacity will try to HO a 190A8, Tiffy, Hog-C or P-47. You don't want to HO those!!
Truly amazing are those that will willingly HO a Mossie, man, 4x Hispano 20mms in an area less than that of your prop, with a handfull of .303s in there too, just for background noise, and a pair of Merlins dragging them along.........what a plane :)
As these guys are saying, the 'HO Dweeb' argument, and coding so frontal hits do less damage is BS, HOs dont just happen, you either make them happen, or let them.
Pssst, BTW, the gunsight can be zoomed, one of AH's dweebiest features, and possibly the one I love the most :)
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The two most common shots taken in WWII even by fighters 1 on 1 were the six shot followed by the head-on, but keep in mind here that by and large most shots were taken from a surprise attack but still all in all these were the most common shots taken.
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Gunsite zoom is not dweebish....when my computer screen fills my entire view with infinite resolution i won't need zoom ....:cool:
and...if ya don't like HOs, don't point your nose at me.
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Okay, I read half of this thread and maybe I missed something... but if you have a guy coming head on, sure it's easy to avoid, but it gives him the high angle shot and half the time they kill me with that! I usually try to go under at about 1.5k, they dive into me, no big deal, I barrel around, but they get shots on me and cause enough damage to put me out or kill me. What am I doing wrong? Not to mention the outnumbered situation... bad SA, yes, but when ya turn out from one HO right into another, it gets to be a b*tch. Besides, constantly avoiding HO's gets to be pretty annoying, boring, and just plain stupid. Seems like that's almost all there is anymore... I'm starting to think my $15 could be put to better use. And I hate thinking that... I love this game.
Edit: That 1.5 is when I dive hard and pull up, I try to stay just under them from the time I see the dot.
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I try avoid HOs most of the time. In sitution when Im Iow&slow comparing to the enemy or it is 1 vs many sitution, I use HO but in certain way (3d).
Some ways to go:
Preset (d4-d2k)
1. use 0G dive to get under opponet. Point your nose litlebit left or right side of enemy. Beware of speed.
Too slow or fast and your plane aint response too well...
2 be sure you are level before merge. Best sitution is if you are allready level and under compare to still diving enemy
premerge & merge (d2k-d500)
3a. with turner plane make fake break to the left or right before merge, continue with barrell roll to avoid fire and last make lead turn. Feels good when you nail it
3b. with turner plane just lead turn that sucker
3c with b&z plane just barrel roll and ru... extend and attack with E-cheat(tm)
3d. Start aiming with zoom well before merge. Fly & aim steady. about d1.3k-d800 give very short brust and break oblique up.
Funny one: Well before merge roll upside down. Litlebit before merge roll fast back upside and laugh out loud because enemy dont know where he should roll/pull/push
If you have big guns, you just need point and shoot.
U know: "ACM is for whimps!" or "(virtual)Real (virtual)man (virtual)fly (virtual)Jugs/F4Us/F6Fs!" etc BS
j/k
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All I can ask is why anyone would talk about realism then talk about HOing a Spit as reasonable. If you got that slow against a spit, you shouldn't reincarnate in 5 seconds, or at all in reality.
Dashe
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LOL
First off Richard Bong got a surpriseing amount of his kills useing HO attacks against a under armed & weaker opponant. So from a historic viewpoint you must leave them in.
2nd most of the time a true HO is not that hard to avoid. I'm not talking about a front quarter shot on the 3rd merge, I mean a true HO where you see the other guy at 5k. Turn at him, line up and gun's at 1.2k out nose to nose.
Thats a HO, the nose to nose in a dogfight is NOT what I call a HO.
A bit of roll, a bit of dive, a bit of horz seperation and you've not only dodged the HO you've got position also for the rest of the fight.
Last, had a pony HO me last night in desperation. He had 6 guys behind him but he forgot that the A20 I was driving had more .50's than he had.
Laughed all the way back to the base,landed & 3.5 perks for that numbskull.
Use your head & the HO isn't so terrible
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quit ur yappin:P
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Okay, no problem, that all works fine and pretty when the bad guy does what you want him to... but what about when he doesn't? No matter how far out I start my avoidance, no matter what I do, they ALWAYS get a high angle shot on me that either takes out something or kills me... should I just say to hell with it and just fly a friggin jug so I can always win ho's? I'm really getting tired of it, all I see anymore are damn HO attacks... it's getting REALLY old! What happened to the FIGHTS we used to have here? Every now and then I make it work... I end up on the guys 6 with some e, and wax his butt, but taking every fight from the HO is old... sure, I try to pull to the side, or under, or whatever, but the guy just keeps pointing his friggin nose right at me. It's getting on my fragile (lol) nerves! I'm tired of it... it does only get me sometimes, but still... it's silly... all the guy has to do is keep his nose on me and if he has better guns, he wins... BS. Eh, screw it, my whining ain't gonna change a thing... disregard.
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disregarded:D
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one tip. try not to ho p-38s:)
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Wildblue... roll pull...
I rarely get hit by the ho monkey, at the merge i will not be facing the con i will be slightly nose down and at a slight off angle. i will give a little roll and small pull to throw off his shot if he's looking to take one.
One of the methods i use that works 95% of the time..
Stay out of his 'plane of turn' abd u create a ton of probs for the ho monkey
SKurj
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Geez WildBlue - where are you when I'm looking for easy kills??? :)
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Historically HOs are not only realistic, they were doctrine. Especially on the allied side where the Germans often arrived with alt and advantage. Turn into them and stare them down. At least you are messing up their bounce.
In a game playing sense..HOs are like a phase that most pilots go through. So is complaining about them. Its frustrating but what do you want..the other guy to play your game..he is doing what he thinks gives him the best chance for the highest return. In many situtions he is infact giveing up the advantage...but he will learn.
They certainly can be avoided with a very high chance of success most of the time. And they give you a huge advantage over the other guy..from the moment he goes out of his way to try to force an HO you know he is probably very predictable in what he will try next...what more do you want in an enemy? Predictablility is death in this game...
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Originally posted by Urchin
Air Warrior had code so that a shot hitting from the front of the plane would do very little damage.
Headon shots were quite feasible in Air Warrior as a CM could set it 100% if they wanted to by altering the arena settings. In practice headons were enabled for fighters headoning buffs (this was standard practice in WWII by the LW on large B17/b25 formations (it was probably the safer approach (for them) as the closing speed was high and gunners would have very little time to track them). The percentage setting was set for this around 30%. ie. only 30% of hits were registered, and combined with the randomizer it would be less.
For fighter/fighter the standard arena settings for headons were set very low indeed, and limited to a fairly small cone angle (we could set that too) though for center firing fighters they got a slightly increased percentage. So fighter/fighter headons you would be a particularly good shot in AW to score hits HO, so most folk went for the angles rather than a headon.
Because collisions were not modelled in AW as in AH it was probably the best compromise, but HO shots could be turned on/off and any percentage set, also the cone angle, so it is not true that HOs didn't happen in AW -it depended who set that particular arena setting, but for standard arenas it WAS enabled, but at a very low setting. ;)
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Originally posted by WildBlue
Okay, no problem, that all works fine and pretty when the bad guy does what you want him to... but what about when he doesn't? No matter how far out I start my avoidance, no matter what I do, they ALWAYS get a high angle shot on me that either takes out something or kills me... should I just say to hell with it and just fly a friggin jug so I can always win ho's? I'm really getting tired of it, all I see anymore are damn HO attacks... it's getting REALLY old! What happened to the FIGHTS we used to have here? Every now and then I make it work... I end up on the guys 6 with some e, and wax his butt, but taking every fight from the HO is old... sure, I try to pull to the side, or under, or whatever, but the guy just keeps pointing his friggin nose right at me. It's getting on my fragile (lol) nerves! I'm tired of it... it does only get me sometimes, but still... it's silly... all the guy has to do is keep his nose on me and if he has better guns, he wins... BS. Eh, screw it, my whining ain't gonna change a thing... disregard.
You seem to be doing something wrong here. It looks to me like you are either pulling your evasive to early, too late, or maneuvering more than you should pre-merge. When done right, the fact is that you will avoid the HO 99% of the time and gain an advantage on the enemy if he goes for the head-on. Folks keep doing this to you because I bet you are making a mistake there somewhere regularly, and they are going to capitalize on it every time. Heading into a true HO, you should be executing a small roll-pull at about D1.5k to spoil his shot. Although it seems weird, after he passes about 1.2-1.0k, you can flight pretty much straight and level and he can't hit you. Because of the lag delay, your little evasive at 1.5 will be happening just as you come within effective guns range. As mentioned above, a very small roll-pull, even a 0G push with a 20 degree roll will normally do it. This is only a very small move to throw his guns off, after this, you need to be transitioning into your upwards merge move. What will happen is that he will pass you going for the HO with guns blazing. If you've done your part right at this point, you will be lead turning him in the vertical while he overshoots slightly below you because he had to point his nose down to get a shot at you. You now get an angles advantage because you start your turn earlier, and you get an energy advantage because he overshot below you. If you've entered this fight with any kind of an advantage to begin with, you should kill him shortly. Often you can nail the guy that tried the HO right after the merge. If not, you've at least given yourself every advantage at the merge, and you can use that to either kill him, or bug out when you lose the advantage.
Bottom line is this. Guys that try to HO you are handing their bellybutton to you on a platter if you know how to play it. If you try what I suggest and still keep getting killed, please film it. Send me the film so I can see what you are doing wrong, and we'll work it out in the TA. I guarantee I can change your mind on this.... 'cause once you learn to handle the HO, you LOVE when they try it... it means the other guy is easy meat. I don't get worried when I guy goes for the HO... I get worried when he mirrors my evasive move, because a guy who evades the HO properly is going to be tough to beat, likely a cagey veteran.