Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: MJHerman on July 05, 2002, 01:17:46 PM
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I've been playing AH for about three months now, and I am first to admit that there are a lot of guys and gals out there who kick my a** on a regular basis. Other than situations where I get HO'd by everyone and his or her uncle (probably my fault for being so dumb to begin with), most fights (read: times I die) are a lot of fun. A toast to all worthy opponents. :)
My "whine" has nothing to do with the people who shoot me down or how they do it or if their N1K is hanging on its prop or they are flying a dweeb ride or if the AAA is to accurate or (insert fave whine here), but rather with teamates and the apparently incessant need amongst all people to, in my view, simply fly around finding a furball and completely disregard any wingmen who may be in the immediate area:
Examples:
1. On the theory that we are all trying to win the same "war", I try as much as possible to give 6 calls. I find I send out more than I receive, which is understandable in a big fight (i.e., everyone is too busy). But I have recently noticed the following: I'm being chased by 4 or 5 cons, teamate moving in behind cons setting them up (gotta love target fixation), but instead of giving a 6 call, friendly just blazes away. End result - He may or may not get a couple of kills, but I'm evading 4 or 5 cons for this guy's benefit. Letting me know you are there would be nice so I have a few more options (and can maybe set up a kill for you).
2. If I am on a cons 6, don't dive in front of me chasing an easy kill. Cover my six so that no one blows in on me. Getting in front of me just means I'm firing at you rather than him.
3. No reason for 6 guys to be chasing that one TBM on the deck when fighters are coming at us from 15K. Grab some altitude, even if that means extending from the fight for a minute or so. Otherwise what happens is that 6 guys get to share that lowly TBM (who may have only been bait anyway), then promptly get blow away by the high fighters, and the momentum of the fight shifts (read: our field falls).
4. Don't start spinning the damn CV when people are trying to get up and into the fight. My last flight under 1.09 resulted in us losing the chance to take a base because some moron couldn't steer the ship straight. No one could get off the deck, momentum was lost, CV sunk by low level buff who managed to get off the field that we were trying to take.
The upside to all this:
1. On 1.10 release date, a beautiful SBD mission was run by 6 or 7 guys against a CV. We all flew tight formation, fighters in the area protected the SBD's from CV Cap, and the CV took between 6 and 8 1000lbs. and eventually went down. Just like Midway, and teamwork works.
2. Take advantage of the cons who subscribe to 1 to 4 above. AFTER giving a 6 call to a wingman being chased by a 109 and a Seafire (he replied that he saw them but was bingo ammo, running for the field), dove in and got the Seafire (who was in the lead) and tagged the 109 good enough that he went down later. As far as I know, wingman made the field. What I couldn't understand was was the 109 didn't evade as the Seafire blew up in his face. Again, teamwork/communication, and two dead cons with both friendlies surviving.
Does it classify as a "whine" if you are squeaking about your own teamates?
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Originally posted by MJHerman
Does it classify as a "whine" if you are squeaking about your own teamates?
Yes. but thats ok i agree on some things. :D
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Not a whine, but anything you post "can" be considered a whine by some here. Most of what you're saying has been going on forever and a day. Don't sweat it, learn who is safe to have around you and who isn't, it takes time but happens. Make note of the ID's of those 6 guys on the TBM and try to remember who they are.... put them in the "unsafe" category. Same goes for the the guy your trying to help that turns the bogey straight into you as though you can actually do something from that angle (or don't send a Check6 and use'em for bait). Best thing you can do is communicate with those around you before the fight begins, works wonders. Never "expect" a check6, thats a courtesy, not a requirement. Expect SA... thats a requirement, for you :D
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Working hard on the SA, but alas, always seem to be looking left when the con is coming from the right......:(
What I need in my ride is a map like they have in shopping malls which has a "You are here" arrow along with a "They are here" arrow :D
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hehehe MJH....you remind me in my first days here :).
Get used to it, bud...there are lots of good teammates in each country, but others won't ever click a "check six" button for you ,let alone diving and helping...
and yes, there also are those who will never stop to kill something ,even if that means stealing kills...
My advice: get into a good squad, make some good friends and teammates and fly with and learn from them...now and then watermelon will happen but most of the time you'll be rewarded with a great time in AH because you'll be surrounded and helped by your own friends (and you will help them too, which also is rewarding :))
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"Get used to it, bud...there are lots of good teammates in each country, but others won't ever click a "check six" button for you"
And some of us are even likely to tell you to bug off if you give us a 6 call! Even with the sound deleted they're still annoying.
I wish there wa sa way to turn them off completely.
IMO you should never rely on your teammates for anything. The few times I DO make an effort to be a "team player", all that ever happens is I end up getting killed saving some ungrateful slob from his own stupidity :mad: . My advice is find a squad--trust your squad and nobody else. If you can find someone who seems to know what he's doing, there's nothing wrong with linking up with him and killing enemies.....just as a rule, it's a mistake to expect teammates to do anything except get you killed.
Don't expect your team to do anything for you, and don't help them unles it's your benefit to do so. I regret the times when I fail to follow that rule.
J_A_B <--- hates getting spammed by useless 6 calls.
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Thanks for the different points of view on things. My own hope is that one day AH will take on more of a "strategic" feel in the sense that teamwork is rewarded and lone wolfing is not.
It just seems to me that without everybody helping out, you might as well be offline playing IL2, etc. and killing AI drones in a "look how great my score is" mentality.
What I find ironic, at the end of the day, is everybody pleading for "realism" (the pizza map is unrealistic, the top speed of the A8 is too slow, my cannons don't do enough damage, where are my sidewinders and LGBs :D ), but I challenge anyone to show me one notable WWII ace who regularily lone wolfed it and was more interested in painting little kills marks next to his canopy than ultimately completing the mission and getting home.
Giving the new "Buff Boxes", once the bugs are fixed, my prediction is that no one will be buff hunting on a regular basis since going into a buff formation without a couple of friends will be suicide (need a buddy to draw fire), and the online personalities will generally limit any ability to coordinate any type of reasonable buff defence. People will rather let the field/city get plastered then actually hook up with two or three guys and take on the buffs.
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MJ... any game that forces me to 'work with others' is one i won't pay for...
I like to lone wolf, and have spent my last coupla years lone wolfin in AH.
I don't expect 6 calls, i givem when i can
and if i die its my fault +)
SKurj
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If I don't know you well enough to know that you won't get us both killed, I'm not going to take any risks to help you.
If you want wingmen, join or form a squad and get a real wingman. Otherwise you can't really expect too much.
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beat me to it, funked
being part of a squad enhances the the combat flight sim experience for most folks.
my first few days in AW were frustrating, till i caught on with a squad. after that, it was a blast.
then same thing here in AH, no fun, unless i joined mission, till some of my old C-Hawks buds came over from the 'dark side'.
i also look for areas where good squads like the Damned, the MAWs and the 479th are operating. they don't mind a little help, and will cover your six if you show them you'll cover thiers.
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While I agree with most of your points, I will attempt to play the devil's advocate a little here.
Like you said, some of the annoying things that your countrymen do, can be exploited when the enemy aircraft do them, which makes it all worthwhile.
The problem with people leaving the cv on a straight course is that it is much easier to hit when it sails straight. What most people dont realize is that the Shore Batteries are the number 1 killer of the cv group. Turning it helps make it tough for the SB to hit the ships. It also makes the high alt bombers much less likely to hit. The only drawback is that it is hard to takeoff. It can be done however though.
Note that as annoying as these things you mention are sometimes, some of them are actually realistic in a certain sense. The fighters all going low and trying to hit the TBM reminds me of the real life IJN pilots that all went low to intercept the US torpedo bombers at the battle of Midway, leaving the SBDs to come in unapposed from high, which caused the loss of 3 IJN carriers (with another sunk in a later raid). I agree that lone wolf tactics would get pilots killed in real life, but they get people killed in here too. I fly with squaddies and friends usually and rarely lone wolf it and what a difference it makes in the survival rate.
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Thanks again for the input guys. And Durr, agree with your point of the IJN Cap chasing the TBD's down low. ...I doubt if there are any "Ensign Gay's" in the MA though.
*Heading off to find a squad*:D
Thanks again guys.
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simply fly around finding a furball and completely disregard any wingmen who may be in the immediate area
If I am on a cons 6, don't dive in front of me chasing an easy kill. Cover my six so that no one blows in on me. Getting in front of me just means I'm firing at you rather than him.
Join a decent squad. Squaddies on the whole actually care and will work with you rather than aggainst you. I've just finished a night of flying Tempests with a squaddie and it was fantastic fun engaging low cons while he protects my high 6 and i do the same for him.
Gatso
BTW I lost 2 Temps tonight before my squaddie showed up because of killshooter and people diving in front of me to steal kills, I lost none when working as a pair because i was warned when other people came steaming in in front of me. Not a whine, kill stealing happens and so does killshooting, it's my fault for not seeing the handsomehunk flying in front of me, it just doesn't happen nearly as much when you've got someone to back you up
and i agree with everything else you said, teamwork rules. Especially on this new map.
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Just a follow up to my original "whine" re: apparent lack of teamwork.
Logged on last night and was in same area as Mathman and Trash101 (?). In any event, cruising around in my 51 up high while Mathman tends to stay low in his Hellcat (talk about an experten) when along comes this LA7. Knowing I have altitude advantage (and Mathman in the area) I know I can afford to BnZ with the LA and drive him low. Long story short, through some teamwork and dragging on my part, the LA hits the sea hard enough from Mathman's guns that the guy was squeaking about how "Mathman, you and and your stang friend suck". Got a chuckle out of it.
Same flight later on, 205 is running for home, with Math on him, with my Pony chasing him down. Knowing that I can't turn with with the guy, I call out to Mathman that the 205 is coming back. Again, the guy is so fixated on bagging a Pony that Mathman takes him out.
IMHO, it doesn't really matter to me how many guys I get (1 or 2 per sortie suits me fine) when I know that better pilots are in the area so long as I can help out. If that means padding someone else's score, so be it, but since I have been flying more conservatively and trying to put more emphasis on teamwork, I noticed that my K/D has gone from 0.75 or so up to 1.00 (and has stayed there).
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MJ. Look up the 332nd Flying Mongrels since you're flying Knights. We're always willing to help new guys, especially Ghosth as he thinks he's a trainer or something. ;)
332nd Flying Mongrels site (http://www.ropescourse.org/flying.htm)
like someone said, also look for the Damned, MAW and MAG-33 guys while you're on the Knights. Especially when Ripsnort is posting missions. Definite teamwork there, and you'll find plenty of guys that will watch out for you.
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Thanks for the offer Nifty, I'll check out the website.
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Funked is right, Aces High is simply a combination of some of the worlds best sim pilots congregated in one arena, and if your not flying with a squad, chances are your gonna die alot. Sure, there are a few "lone wolfers" who are very successful, but for the average "Joe Blow", you'd be better off joining a squadron and winging up.
(Edit: Thanks Nifty :) Actually look for any missions posted, lately, there are alot of good "Generals" out there in Knitland)
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My opinion, contrary to some others here, is if you HAVE to join a squad in order to get kills, then you're not really improving as a virtual fighter pilot--you're just leeching off your squad.
The reason IMO to join a squad is for the comraderie and for doing the occasional mission and stuff, NOT to leech off them for kills. Not only will constantly flying in a group retard your skill development, it'll also cause you to get lazy with SA. I absolutely hate seeing people say "you'll need to join a squad in order to do well", because that's simply not true.
J_A_B
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JAB, information is constantly exchanged in squadrons, whether it be training, or new game play (new versions) or winging up to help your skills. No, you don't have to be in a squadron...but it certainly helps you as a pilot. No one knows "everything" and squadrons help you not only with building yourself into a better pilot, but the comradery itself is worth the price of admission (which that price is free)
I don't see winging up as "Leeching"...I see it as an opportunity for growth.
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Rip. The IJN mission the first night of 1.10 was a blast. Though it was terribly hard to destroy a town building with just the guns on the Val. ;)
Personally, I've found that I got better because of flying with my squad. For me, SA comes from experience of being in a furball. When you're new, you're going to live longer in the fight if you've got someone watching your tail. Also, knowing there's someone that you have to watch out for helps your SA out. You find yourself starting to identify, assess, and prioritizing threats faster.
The caveat is all people learn differently. Some learn through independent trial and error better and some learn from others better.
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Originally posted by Ripsnort
I don't see winging up as "Leeching"...I see it as an opportunity for growth.
I agree. My squad (Ghosts) is largely made up of average pilots, backed up by a few of this game's good sticks. We also have a large group of relatively new pilots. Moreover, we have specialists too. Some guys/gals are real good at Buffing. Some are artists at Jabo work. A few are real killers in fighters. We take all of these skills and fly combined ops missions with great success. No one leeches from any squad member. We succeed or fail as a group. Personally, I like flying with Hammer, Kick, VX, BGS or Boat. You can absolutely rely on these guys to cover you.
As far as flying as a "lone wolf", several of us do it frequently. Last evening, most of the squad set off on an quickly planned jabo mission. Two of us remained behind to make sure they had a field to return to. I've managed over 50 bomber kills in 5 days hunting Buffs alone. I like "hunting". Being in a squad doesn't mean you can't do what you like to do. It means working as a team on squad night, and being able to get a reliable wingman anytime you need one. Being in a squad teaches the value of teamwork, because there is only so much one can accomplish alone.
My regards,
Widewing
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Widewing, I can relate, there's some nights our squadmates feel like lonewolfing, others we feel like organizing...usually with new releases, we stay together because of the information exchange that goes on...very good! You can do both lone wolfing and squad operations in a squad, you can do only one without a squad ;)
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Wow, look at the can of worms I opened with the original post.
My original thoughts were that I was getting tired of any type of organization when flying online, whether it be "formal" i.e., squad, or "informal", i.e. those hanging around a base coming up with some semblance of a plan, or at least communicating a little bit better.
I find it quite sterile to be flying around without any sense of a team, since it seems to me the same as an "offline" game, with the difference being only that the cons. are not AI. Part of the online appeal to me is the fact that you are surrounded by a whole bunch of people....some may share your goals (in my case, taking/defending bases, kicking ass, winning as a group, etc.) while others don't (I didn't use "lone wolf" in any type of bad way, but rather as a description).
I don't see wingmen as increasing chances for a personal kill per se, but rather increasing the chances of a "team kill". The point of the game (again, as I see it...others may feel differently and that's cool) is to close with and destroy the enemy, achieve local air supremacy, bring in the buffs and the goons, and repeat :D Anything that helps in achieving that goal is a good thing.
At the end of the day, was I am currently lacking online is not necessarily the skill set to kill (and be killed), but rather the "camraderie" of getting the job done, making new friends, and all dying together :D
Admittedly my SA needs some substantial improvement, but the way I see it, if WWII pilots relied on their wingmen there is nothing wrong with relying on mine (and vice versa) in our tiny virtual (albeit pizza shaped) world.
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The most fun I have on a consistant basis is being up with 4 or 5 squadies in a furball base defense or attack. Alota fun.
Like to go ahuntin too and do quite a bit of it.
But a small group of squadies with their hair on fire is really hard to beat :)
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nuttin' wrong with lone 'wolsquealing from time to time :):cool:
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I am in a squad... and i still spend 90% o my time flyin solo
i am not in the squad because i need wingies, or because i like to do mishuns(i don't most of the time)
its just cuz well.. i get soo lonely sometimes... :(
SKurj
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no one drives the cv
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No one drives the CV? I was under the impression that highest rank had ability to control the CV, thereby "drive" it.
If I am wrong, I stand corrected in advance.
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MJHerman,
You are correct. However, no one "drives" the CV as they would a plane or vehicle. They set the course by setting waypoints, and the CV automatically follows that course.
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:D I was using "drive" very loosely. Those of us who are former army always referred to the fishheads (err, the navy) as "ship drivers".
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I think i fly 95% alone
my squad mates shoot so well that i only get assist when i fly with em :D