Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Curval on December 23, 2001, 09:09:00 AM
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I'm gonna buy a new stick and I need to know which is the BEST for Aces High and why...
I have been using a Sidewinder Precision Pro USB stick but it is very bouncy....I have tweaked the settings over and over but still no joy....I think it has seen better days and it's time to get a new one.
Suggestions?
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I've had good experience with CH gear--notably the f16 fighter stick, Pro throttles and Pro pedals in a USB config.
Hearty, durable stuff.
dh
(now if I could only eliminate my 750 ms delay and actually play this game...)
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CH stuff is good especially after tearing up dozens of TM sticks but... You will need to fix the little girl springs in the stick... This is difficult if you wish to have a neat looking setup. If you don't mind people laughing their butt off when they see it... there is a simple fix.
lazs
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I have the CH setup and I love it. I have the USB Combatstick 568, Pro Pedal, and Pro Throttle. It improved my flying ability alot being I don't have to mess with the keyboard much anymore!
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What about that new Thrustmater Cougar err whatever it's called coming out in January.
Whats the deal with that? Worth the wait?
Worth the $250 for a stick and throttle?
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but... You will need to fix the little girl springs in the stick...
lazs
Please elaborate--I've never heard of this on the F16 fighter stick.
thanks
dh
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If you can wait, get the TM HOTAS Cougar.
It will be hands down THE BEST stick/throttle combo available.
All metal construction and entirely USB (with available 15-pin input for rudder peddels) The whole thing registers to Windows as one multi-axis device.
Fully programable. Everything from button clicks, scaling, axis swapping, marco execution, you name it, it's probably programable.
Cougar all the way.
Originally posted by lazs1:
CH stuff is good especially after tearing up dozens of TM sticks but...
lazs
Another reason to buy TM. I've had my F-16FLCS and TQS for almost 8 years now, and it still works just fine. The only thing I havedone is replaced the pot for the TQS, and made a repair to the 4-way switch on it.
If you think $250.00 is too much for a stick, consider how many CH crap sticks you will need to buy during the next 8 years.
For that matter, you CH guys, please tell us how many you have bought in the last 8 and compare that to how many TMs I bought (1) :D
[ 12-23-2001: Message edited by: Midnight ]
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horn.. i have the f16 combat stick and when I got it the "springs" were so weak that I could move the stick throughout its travel with the tip of my pinky finger. There is no clean fix that I am aware of. The springs are not made to be easily replaced with springs stiff enough to matter. My fix is crude but effective.
lazs
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The CH stuff has "softer" springs... some people don't like it (myself included)... but that can be fixed. That is what lazs is describing.
As for the Cougar HOTAS... I'll definately be getting one. BUT... don't buy that its the end-all-be-all of joysticks until the reviews are in. All metal sounds cool, but it isn't necessarily a good idea. There is a reason most companies went away from all metal hand-held power tools and the military uses high-density plastics for their stuff. Metal is potentially more durable, but at the risk of ergo issues <someone was taking about AH thumb in another thread?>.
AKDejaVu
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Originally posted by Midnight:
For that matter, you CH guys, please tell us how many you have bought in the last 8 and compare that to how many TMs I bought (1) :D
[ 12-23-2001: Message edited by: Midnight ]
I've got an F16 FLCS/TQS/RCS sitting in my closet. Got tired of the constant tweaking required on it and I've been using a SideWinder PP2 for two years now.
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Yeah well...I bought a Logitech Wingman Extreme 3D and it's now got a problem physically and it has a few spikes on throttle and twist rudder. :mad:
I think a friend of mine broke my joystick because it was his first go at a flight sim and the idiot thought that the more violent you were with the stick, the more the plane would respond. After he used it, it was never the same again. :mad:
So I don't know if it's the build quality or the idiot who broke it.
p.s. Why don't we get any good sticks here in the UK? I can't find the good ones you people are talking about.
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The Cougar should be coming out in Europe too...and since TM is now owned by Guillemot, the prices will probably be reasonable too. (compared to the cost in the US market)
SOB
Now, more about this CH versus TM stuff. I haven't seen a good joystick flame war in quite a while! "My stiff stick is much better than your stoopid floppy stick any day!"
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PS to Sandman...it's a shame your poor TM gear is sitting useless & lonely in your closet. How's about you send 'em to me, and I'll make sure they get some use! :)
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Been using the same F16-FLCS since '95. Got the TQS a little later. Did the digital upgrade upgrade about a year ago.
I think CH quality is better than TM but I still preordered a TM Cougar and am eagerly waiting.
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All CH here. Never done me wrong.
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Originally posted by SOB:
PS to Sandman...it's a shame your poor TM gear is sitting useless & lonely in your closet. How's about you send 'em to me, and I'll make sure they get some use! :)
Hmmm... what's a used F16 FLCS/TQS/RCS worth?
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If you're serious about selling them, you'd get more money off of ebay then you'd get from me :)
http://search-completed.ebay.com/search/search.dll?ht=1&query=thrustmaster+TQS&SortProperty=MetaEndSort (http://search-completed.ebay.com/search/search.dll?ht=1&query=thrustmaster+TQS&SortProperty=MetaEndSort)
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I'm not so much interested in making a lot of money as I am with simply a fair price.
Hmmm... $100 for the FLCS, TQS and RCS doesn't sound too bad to me. Interested?
[ 12-24-2001: Message edited by: Sandman_SBM ]
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Originally posted by lazs1:
horn.. i have the f16 combat stick and when I got it the "springs" were so weak that I could move the stick throughout its travel with the tip of my pinky finger. There is no clean fix that I am aware of. The springs are not made to be easily replaced with springs stiff enough to matter. My fix is crude but effective.
lazs
cc, lazs...I must be *way* to gentle ;)
(several years w/ ch--and from Mac to bug-box, too. My mileage must vary.
thanks, tho.
dh
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Sandman...check yer private msgs
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Okay...I think I am sold on the Cougar...went to the web site and I am impressed. I will have to make some serious modifications to my computer chair to accomadate the throttle AND the stick but such is life.
Anyone in Toronto selling it? I would like to pre-order one and have a buddy ship it to me....I just need to know who will be selling it.
Thanks for all your help people...have a Happy Happy, Merry Merry....
Curval
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Couple of things about the Cougar (which will be a fantastic stick, and probably the best out there).
There are a few things I dislike, which will make me go for an all CH rig:
The rubber skirt. Thrustmaster have a bad habit of putting a rubber skirt on their sticks. This means another artificial resistance on the stick, that increases exponentially as the stick is moved more and more. This means you'll have to use different amounts of power to get it to a specific location, and, due to the way the skirt is constructed, it's not always the exact same amount of pressure.
Some'll say "it's just like with the F16 stick: it hardly moves, and is sensitive to the amount of pressure on the stick". I'd agree with that. Unfortunately, the skirt system isn't precise enough - and the stick travels a LOT more.
Secondly, for those of us who like weak springs a la CH, it's gonna take some time to get used to.
That's the two minor complains I have, and both are cases of "my personal taste" - i.e I won't try to justify them, or I won't call them "shortcomings", as they aren't.
CH is it for me. With the new USB gear, they're durable as hell, easy to use, and jsut right in terms of resistance. More precision due to linear pressure.
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StSanta....currently with my Precision Pro stick I experience significant "bouncing" when trying to slightly adjust my pitch and roll....I compensate and over-compensate to the point where if I hit something it generally results from a hosing of ammo rather than precise well aimed bursts. I could be wrong, but I think part of the problem is in the "bounce back" or centering effect of my joystick. Does CH gear (due to the lack of resistance in the stick) solve my problem, in your opinion?
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The CH stick is very good, IMHO. Resistance is uniform over the entire range. Played with a MS Precision Pro for a bit, and it was awful compared to the CH stick.
CH will definitely improve yer flying. Cougar will too, if you like the rubber skirt and more resistance thing. :).
I recommend the CH Fighterstick USB :)
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Originally posted by StSanta:
Some'll say "it's just like with the F16 stick: it hardly moves, and is sensitive to the amount of pressure on the stick". I'd agree with that. Unfortunately, the skirt system isn't precise enough - and the stick travels a LOT more.
If they do they'll be wrong. The Cougar, like the F22 Pro, will have a full range of motion...it's just got stiffer springs than most. The one in the real F16 is strain gauge, and trust me, no one wants to fly any flight sim with a strain gauge stick. It sucks.
Now, as for your dislikes, who can argue with personal taste. However, I feel that if you work hard at it, & get yourself motivated with a regular porn regiment, you'll soon have no problem with the increased tension of the Cougar! :D And the skirt? You get used to it quick and grow to like it...it's very liberating!
SOB
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I have had the Saitek X-36 USB stick/throttle for a year and a half now. The only mechanical problem was the primary thumb hat stopped detecting the diagonal positions which was easily fixed by wrapping the stem of the thumb hat with black electrical tape. The original programming software had some major problems, but the current version is mostly stable. Of course, they have yet to provide a Windows 2000/XP compliant version (and despite their claims, it seems like they never will ;)). But for Windows 9x/ME You can't beat this stick for programmability. You never have to calibrate it either. Motion feels pretty smooth, too. I don't have rudder pedals, so the rudder rocker on the front of the throttle grip has been doing a great job for me. As long as you are using Win9x/ME, you can't beat this stick for the price. I don't know if the X-45 has maintained the same quality. Usually, re-engineering something and offering it at a lower price means they found some way to make it cheaper. That may mean reduced quality or durability, but time will tell.
If the TM Cougar ever has a plug-in version of the F-4/F-15 style stick, I would be interested in getting it. I have no use for the F-16 or its ugly stick :D
[ 12-25-2001: Message edited by: streakeagle ]
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I believe that "nose bounce" is increased with wimpy springs. A good rule of thumb is that if it is possible to fly without screwing your jstick down to the desk then it has springs that are way to weak in it. It is also possible that you are gay. Not that there's anything wrong with that..
lazs
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Originally posted by streakeagle:
<SNIP> If the TM Cougar ever has a plug-in version of the F-4/F-15 style stick, I would be interested in getting it. I have no use for the F-16 or its ugly stick
Yeah a couple of nice WW2 handles would be nice... like the Spitfire handle would really be unusual.
They interchangable handles is one major selling point for me, I've already pre-ordered one.
I've had probs with Saitek X-36 sticks (gone thru 2 now) so what I've done is left the USB X-36 hooked up so I can use the throttle, connected my old MS FF up to the soundcard JS port, and USB CH Pro pedals.
Real hodge podge of sticks I'll grant you, but it works well, at least til the Cougar gets here :D
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X-36 until Cougar gets to stores and I murder my granma for her money.
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CH Combat 565F USB has stronger springs, has been absolutely flawless as has their Pro Throtle USB and Pro Pedals USB.
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I back up Midnight here: my TM FCS Mk I has reached the respectable age of 10 yrs!
(I had to fix it a couple oft times, tho)...
I've already ordered a TM Cougar. I could try it during a computer even on the IL-2 demo last month...I don't want anything else now :D
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Originally posted by lazs1:
CH stuff is good especially after tearing up dozens of TM sticks but... You will need to fix the little girl springs in the stick... This is difficult if you wish to have a neat looking setup. If you don't mind people laughing their butt off when they see it... there is a simple fix.
lazs
If you want to stiffen up any CH joystick, just wrap a rubber band around the gimble and base of the stick. Stiffens the joystick just fine.
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Originally posted by Midnight:
For that matter, you CH guys, please tell us how many you have bought in the last 8 and compare that to how many TMs I bought (1) :D
[ 12-23-2001: Message edited by: Midnight ][/QB]
How many CH sticks have I bought in the last 8 years? None, I got mine all for free because I used to work for them :p
Seriously though, I've got the exact same CH setup on my desk that I've had for the last 6 years. The only "repair" that was needed was in replacing the X axis potentiometer in my Jane's F-16 Combat Stick and that was 2 years ago. The only "upgrade" I went through with my CH gear was in replacing my CH Game Card Automatic III with a Rockfire USB game port. Considering the hours these sticks have been used, that's pretty damn good. I even have one of the very first CH joysticks, an old Hayes, from my Apple II+ that still works fine and that thing is about 20 years old now.
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CH sticks are supposed to have a "loose" feel to them, supposed to give the illusion of "fly-by-wire" stick movement. The loose feel isn't from the springs but rather the gimble. If you want to stiffen up the stick, just wrap a rubber band around the base and the gimble of the stick.
Originally posted by lazs1:
horn.. i have the f16 combat stick and when I got it the "springs" were so weak that I could move the stick throughout its travel with the tip of my pinky finger. There is no clean fix that I am aware of. The springs are not made to be easily replaced with springs stiff enough to matter. My fix is crude but effective.
lazs
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I've been using the MS Pre-Pro 2 for a few months now. I've just gotta break down and get my Hoffman pedals fixed. Twisty Rudder til then. :)
Digital is the way to go. No spikes.
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I have to second the MS PPro notion, I switched my first $20 chic stick to this one back at WB 2.xx and I've never had a spike or trouble since. Absolutely love it.
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I've been using the CH Fighterstick / Pro Throttle / Pedals for 4 years, am on my second Fighterstick after the first went faulty. My current stick is presently getting the dreaded spikes - it's still usable but not perfect.
CH are generally good but what attracts me to the Cougar is the digital axis technology. As I understand it, even the latest CH sticks use potentiometers so will be prone to spiking in time. The Cougar (I'm hoping) will be immune to this problem.
Vladd
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Vladd: the newer CH analog sticks have been dogged by spiking prblems. Had one, started spiking after a year. Stupid as I was, i tried opening it to replace the pots - it didn't help. Got another: same problem after only 6 months. And, I did the same stupid thing.
Now, I got the USB version. Works like a DREAM. This stick will last as long as my first CH COmbatstick - 5 years. Am sure of that: with USB technology they've gotten around the problems with the analog spikes.
Bouncy nose because of weak springs? I disagree lazs: I think it is a matter of what you're used to. It's not like it's saggy or jumping left and right: it is stable: just need less resistance to push it.
On a sidenote: the BEST way to beat the nose bounce in Aces High is to be *properly trimmed*. When you're outta trim in the vertical, your nose will bounce a LOT. Map trim to joystick buttons and trim manually - much better than CT, and it'll reduce nouse bounces tremendously.
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Originally posted by StSanta:
Now, I got the USB version. Works like a DREAM. This stick will last as long as my first CH COmbatstick - 5 years. Am sure of that: with USB technology they've gotten around the problems with the analog spikes.
Rgr Santa, I've heard good things about the USB versions. Really depends on what was / is causing the spikes - the analogue connection or the potentiometers (which may or may not be the same in the USB stick). Personally I've no idea where the problem lay and just kind of assumed it was the pots alone.
If that's not the case then great! A spike-free CH stick though is a truly wonderful thing :)
Vladd
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You guys all talking about having problems stiffening up your joysticks worries me a little. I have never had any problem in that regard myself. :D
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MS Pre Pro works great for me. Never needs recalibrated, no spikes, durable. I just don't like the F-16 stick on this side, throttle on that side setup. Took me too long to learn how to fly in RL in right handed helos as a lefty to want to re-learn flying with a stick on the side. I wish someone would make a stick set that was based around a floor unit. It could have a central unit on the floor with rudder pedals, and a stick that came up, curved over your lap and ended up with the grip between your legs. That would be cool as hell.
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Originally posted by StSanta:
Vladd: the newer CH analog sticks have been dogged by spiking prblems. Had one, started spiking after a year. Stupid as I was, i tried opening it to replace the pots - it didn't help. Got another: same problem after only 6 months. And, I did the same stupid thing.
There are 3 main causes for spikes with analog sticks:
1)Poll w/Interrupts is CHECKED in Game Controllers.
2)Potentiometers are going bad or need to be
cleaned.
3)Speed of game port. Most game ports found
on computers poll anywhere from 300 to 800+ m/secs. Most analog sticks like the game
port at a much faster speed, anywhere from
100-130m/secs. That's why if you are going
to use CH or TM analog gear, it's a very
good idea to invest in a dedicated, speed-
adjustable game port like CH Gamecard III
Auto or TM's ACM game card. Slow game
ports are more evident with CH and TM
analog gear because unlike MS, Logitech
and Gravis sticks, CH and TM don't hard-
code the firmware to make it more compatible with slower game ports.
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X36 USB and CH PRO Pedals (USB) untill Cougar comes out, :)
[ 12-29-2001: Message edited by: Apar ]
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Originally posted by Durr:
You guys all talking about having problems stiffening up your joysticks worries me a little. I have never had any problem in that regard myself. :D
Hehe, nor do I. I'd strongly advise to try medicine before wrapping tape around the stick!
:D
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"You guys all talking about having problems stiffening up your joysticks worries me a little. I have never had any problem in that regard myself.
--------------------
1st Air Commando Group "
you guys who can't tell your game controler from your dick worry me a little.
lazs
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you guys who can't tell your game controler from your dick worry me a little.
lazs
Hmm, and where you got the idea to take d**k to this topic, that worries me a little. Please remember there could be minors reading this...
;)
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It is a good thing for anyone, including minors, to know the difference between their jstick and their dick.
lazs
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:D
Better to stop this before it starts, there is already too many topics that's turned into BS at General discussion (I even started one!!=)
S!