Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: Anvil on July 06, 2002, 10:13:26 PM
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Hello AH-ers and HTC. I would have posted this in the new Q&A section but it doesn't seem to have a "new post" button.
Being my first post ever, before I get to my problem, I wanted to say "Great game HTC!!!"
To make a long story short...
I practiced bombing for many hours with no luck. I read the postings in the BB. I fully understand how to calibrate and am sure I am doing it right. I started using the divebomb site offline to practice calibrating without the time consuming process of bombing. I seemed to immediately improved at calibrating. At one point, after a great many succesful calibrations and a about a 75% average (according to the divebomb site), I decided to drop some bombs. The bombs missed by a significant distance(several bomber hangers width in distance). I tried several more times dropping bombs and they consistantly fell a considerable distance AFTER the point that the DIVEBOMB site said they would.
I turned on the "precision bombsite" The bombs missed in exactly the same manner. I was perfectly competent with the old precision bombsite so I am certain something is wrong with the precison site in this version as well as the divebomb site. I suppose I could always lead my target but that hardly seems right.
Check this out please.
-- Anvil
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Anvil, about using the dive bomb sight for calibration practicing -
I too thought this was a good way of practicing, but after your post, I went off-line again to verify this.
you are right. the bombs drop too long acording to where the green + mark was at the time of the release.
I can think of 2 reasonable explanations:
1.
the dive bombsight is off.
I did some dive bombing with it and hit the spot, but those are relative low drops at steep angles and therefor the error was small comparing with level bombing.
2.
HTC only added drag to bombs droped from non-buffs. the buff bombs have no drag, do not slow down and hit too far ahead. if this is the reason, than we can't use the dive bomb sight with the bombers.
Bozon
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Let me get this straight. Are we talking about using the dive bomb sight in level bombing?
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There are 2 training/offline bombsites that you can use. A dive bomb site which simply tells you where the bombs WILL fall when you release them regardless whether or not you are diving or level in any plane. And a precision bombsite for bombers that works exactly like the v.09 bombsite. If you turn them both on they line up on each other exactly. You can turn them on by going into setup/arena settings and double clicking "FlightModeFlags".
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I am being incredibly dense this A.M. and can not find my way into setups/arena to double click flagmodes. Can you provide directions to it.
My green crosshairs in TA are always 3/4 of the way up bombsite from black crosshairs. If I drop on green I get hits.If I drop on black its always way off target.
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ET host a H2H game, then go to setup/arena settings.
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if you choose the precision bomb sight, and the dive bomb sight at the same time, then when you look through the bomb sight (F6 view) you'll see them both marking the same spot.
but if you drop from high enough, you'll see that they both aim too short and the bombs drop after the target.
WTG Anvil for discovering this.
Bozon
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You CAN access the bombsites OFFLINE as well as in HTH. I'm looking at my offline inflight clipboard right now and "Setup" is between "Radio" and "Roster". From there it's "Arena settings" and "FlightModeFlags"
I've been testing and documenting and the error seems to stay fairly consistent in relation to speed and altitude. Last night i was able to hit the target 5 out of 8 times, without any site-aids, from 10k above ground, with careful calibration and visual error correcting at drop time. This is much better than i had been doing.
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Ty Ghosth Anvil, got it now.
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I tried to do level bombing with a fighter, using the green cross of the dive-bomb-sight.
the cross is always too short and the bombs pass over the target. when dive bombing, this is not a problem since horizinal speed is very small comparing with the vertical speed so the bombs hit pretty good.
I still need to verify this:
Anvil, or others, when you enable dive-bomb-sight (but not pression bomb sight) and you go through the calibration proccess. does it result in having the green cross near the center of the cross-hair of the Norden (flying over ground as high as the calibrated target)?
if so, there might be a problem with the Norden bombsight (the "real" one we use in the MA).
the "perfectly calibrated" precision bombsight is overlaping with the green divebomb sight - which adds to my suspicion.
Bozon
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Bozon try the same test over water, the 2 won't line up until the green sight crosses over the target alt. Over water the alt is always the same. And whe you gents say the green sight is off, i need to know how much.
There is also bomb dispersion in 1.10 i.e. bombs will not hit exatly where the green would show. error will increase with alt.
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guys... i tried to adjust the flags offline, but it says i need CM privs... how do i do that?
SKurj
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Bozon, In the SFMA map, in the north, there is a triangle of fields 49,69,53 between which there is a large area of very flat land at 1470ft. I used this area to practice with the Norden site and the divebomb site together. It seems that, on my best calibrations, the Norden site was very close to the dive-site.
HiTech, I don't know how to accurately measure the error in the dive-site but I have documented about 40 drops in which I dropped with the green divebomb and/or the precision site directly over the target and estimated the distance that the bombs hit from the target visaully. The bombs ALWAYS hit late, in a fairly predictable range. I did about 20 tests at 10k above target at speeds between 160 and 200 and the bombs seem to fall ABOUT the distance of 3 FHs diagonal after the target. At 15k the error has been between 4 and 6 diagonal FHs in the 180-200mph range. At 5k the error was down to 1 1/2 - 2 FHs. The larger errors in each altitude range DO correspond to the faster speeds. If this is dispersion, then I am satisfied. I am already hitting targets fairly well with visual compensation. I just thought I should mention it.
Anvil
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SKurj, my game didn't mention CM privs.....It let me right in to FlightModeFlags.
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HT,some declassified shot's from Vega
"Impact Point Indicator (after careful calibration).
It would seem that an extremely careful calibration would put the IPI right on the crosshairs, but it doesn't."
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Vega
"BDA after trying another drop on the IPI instead of the crosshairs.
In this case, neither dropping on the crosshairs or the IPI worked. (edit) . In addition, there seems to be no calibration correction for winds. So even with the above problems solved, if you fly in some sort of wind layer like at 15,500 ft., you will miss the target"
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HT:
Bozon try the same test over water, the 2 won't line up until the green sight crosses over the target alt. Over water the alt is always the same. And whe you gents say the green sight is off, i need to know how much.
There is also bomb dispersion in 1.10 i.e. bombs will not hit exatly where the green would show. error will increase with alt.
thx for the reply HT.
I'm aware of ground altitudes and did all the tests over 0 alt terrain (coast fields, comming from the ocean).
since the "precision" bomb sight and the "dive" bombsight overlap, i suppose that in a perfectly calibrated "normal" norden bombsight they should too. and they usually do get pretty close.
however, here are some test results (spread over 3 posts):
here is a bomb run using the precision and dive sights enabled.
you can see the moment of release captured and the impact point (too long as always). this was done with a B17 at a 0 alt base, coming from the ocean side at ~15k.
the other hole in the ground is from the first bombrun in which i forgot to capture screen - but the bomb fell at about the same location.
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now, this is on the same VH, "normal" Norden sight and dive sight enabled.
clibration brought them both close to the center (in this particular case they came out very close. usually they are a little apart). at the top, you can see the norden calibration data. again the hit is too long
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here is the pic, (microcrap win-dos went beserk and crashed while posting.. :mad: )
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again! :mad:
last attempt:
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ok worked.
the last one is an attemp to predict how much I need to drop before the target. the calibration was done in a haste, and the aiming I did with the green dive sight.
as it happens, the norden sight is ahead of the dive sight just enough to make it almost accurate.
I bombed the FH on the same base as the pics before, same alt and speed. there are more details around to estimate distances with:
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Seeing very much the same thing on my end Bozon. Some in my squad claim to be able to bomb accurately. Wonder if there could be something different between patching 1.09 to 1.10 vs a full 1.10 install?
'course, it could be some in my squad are full of sh*t ;)
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Great work. I was having the exact same problem, bombs always landing long, and figured it was something to do with my technique. I was beating myself up trying to figure out what I was doing wrong in calibrating but maybe it wasn't my problem, it was a bug.
I had a couple of squaddies telling me they could bomb properly but I couldn't... strange.
-Soda
The Assassins.
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Not really ..some of us are competent.:cool:
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Turned on precision bombing and used the green crosshairs for level bombing (B26). Is it correct to assume that this then functions as did the 1.09 crosshairs? Using the green crosshair only I still hit late, same as before.
Not sure if you were pointing out the same thing with your pics bozon, if so I'm hitting about as late as you.
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btw, I've read in the Q&A forum, that HTC know of this bug and relate it to wind.
there was no wind when I took those pics. I did use wind setings to shorten climb and extending times, but I ALWAYS tuned it off when turned into the bomb leg.
Bozon
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Originally posted by bozon
btw, I've read in the Q&A forum, that HTC know of this bug and relate it to wind.
there was no wind when I took those pics. I did use wind setings to shorten climb and extending times, but I ALWAYS tuned it off when turned into the bomb leg.
Bozon
Not sure we read the same post Bozon. Here's an extract:
"The green cross in the training arena should show the impact point of the bombs but we just found a bug in that sight that will be fixed in the next patch."
Didn't say it was wind related, does sound like they found the problem though.
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Hi Guys,
not sure if this helps but HITECH was on today and stated that there IS a bug in the bombing stuff. The bombs were not coded with drag in the update...as a result bombs will drop long if perfectly calibrated.
he said this would be fixed in the patch.
Regards
:)
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oops AKIron, you are right...
got 2 sentences crossed there when reading it :p
sorry.
Bozon
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So, when the bug is fixed...will the expert v1.10 bombers, like PONGO, no longer be experts??? :rolleyes:
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All it means, Anvil, is that the people who learned how to calibrate their sights correctly will just stop applying Tennessee windage to their drop point and use the crosshairs; if they were accurate before, they'll be accurate afterward. But you'll also get all the people who learned how to calibrate their sights, but never learned how to effectively guage how much to lead to compensate for lack of drag, that will be dropping accurately, too. Which means the number of good buffers will go up.
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To be honest, I've never ever felt the effect of this 'bug' with the bomb sight. I admit it could be because of the way how I prefer to bomb, though. I never expect bombs to hit right on marker like some of the pics posted here suggests it should. I always just thought anything hit within about 100 yard radius of the marker is good enough.
So, I put the delay at 0.3 for towns, 0.4 for Vehicle bases, 0.6~0.7 for airfields, and always drop bombs when the bomb marker enters the desired 'area' not desired 'pin-point'.
With this method I've never missed the target I wished hit, since I would effectively bomb everything in the path so eventually the bombs will hit the target. Maybe my method on bombing sort of provides something like 'natural tendency to lead the target a bit' since I look to bomb the whole area, I wouldn't know.
All I know is, from towns to hangars, anything that needs to be taken down I've not missed. The 'bug' somehow doesn't effect me personally.
ps) ....and while many people promote doing the 'mark' process against a target straight below, I still mark on the desired target itself on the horizon. Somehow, this may have an effect, too.
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I know, I haven't read everything yet.
But, can someone tell me how to turn on this "divebomb" sight?
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its on in the training arena.. i think its on by default in there...
it doesn't work in the Main arena
SKurj
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TY SKurj,
Thought I was goin crazy, read all twice and still no db sight:confused:
Thought I was goin crazy
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Originally posted by Kweassa
To be honest, I've never ever felt the effect of this 'bug' with the bomb sight. I admit it could be because of the way how I prefer to bomb, though. I never expect bombs to hit right on marker like some of the pics posted here suggests it should. I always just thought anything hit within about 100 yard radius of the marker is good enough.
With this method I've never missed the target I wished hit, since I would effectively bomb everything in the path so eventually the bombs will hit the target. Maybe my method on bombing sort of provides something like 'natural tendency to lead the target a bit' since I look to bomb the whole area, I wouldn't know.
Yeppers, I followed your tutorial to the tee and started hitting targets everytime. I about drove myself nuts attempting precision drops... Actually I kind of wish HT would leave the bug alone... I think this type of bombing is much more realistic.
Salute