Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Halo on August 04, 2001, 02:23:00 PM
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Warbirds III is free for August. Excellent opportunity to try it out.
But ... I left WBII for Aces High, and after just briefly taking a look at WBIII, I must conclude once again:
ACES HIGH IS THE GREATEST GAME IN THE HISTORY OF THE UNIVERSE.
Oh, did I overstate? Well, pardon me if I get carried away in praise for the funnest, most visually appealing, most ergonomically logical, most playable realistic simulation I've ever seen, which is HiTech and crew's virtuosity in Aces High.
For all this praise I'm not even lobbying for new stuff, although naturally any will be appreciated. Aces High has enough variations and opportunities to keep me happily entertained a long while.
I'd offer to buy stock, but I hope HiTech and crew will keep it the elite special innovative and responsive organization it is. I wouldn't want it compromised by too many fingers in the pot, although I sure hope the creators receive more than enough reward to retain their incentive and momentum.
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I like wb3's lack of direct 6 view in the 3d cockpits
is much more realistic setup.
you are able to look directly brhind but you can only see one rear quarter of your 6 at a time.
to check the other side your head swivels around realistically.
so checking 6 takes two head movements instead of one direct 180degree rear view
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Good deal for anyone interested I spect.
There some people whos opinions I respect dearly that believe WB3 is clearly superior.
I even thought it (wb3) looked pretty damned nice but I prefer AH for some pretty good reasons.
It is really nice tho to have another product to fall back on when one gets tired of, bored with, frustrated at his current choice. I know a few folks that have already bounced back and fourth several times. They seem to be as content as anyone.
I agree fester, WB3 has done a nice job with the 6-views in 3d cockpits.
Y
[ 08-04-2001: Message edited by: Yeager ]
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I dl'd WB3 and am impressed how far they have come.
The eye candy is definately sweet, rounded engine cowlings vs. boxey AH eng. cowls, the little details such as the pilot looks better, the custom skins, even the buildings and GVs all add up to a sweet lookin' sim[/i]...BUT after using AH for the last 2 years, I find the WB3 flight controls to be sluggish, and even after repeatedly adjusting up and down the stick settings I'm havin' a hard time line'n up on the offline drones.
I believe it does offer serious competition to AH (much more so than WWOL) and I wish iEN the best of luck with it, but as of now my money stays with right here.
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Weird, eh? I don't like it at all.
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i like it alot except for the sluggish controls
that part really sucks
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What Zig said.
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HS is adamant that he has the data on response for "many" planes and that it currently is correct. I have no opinion on the matter, and that is not why I am not thrilled with it anyway, but that is his stance.
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What zig said.
I guess that's why a lot people call it "mush birds".
bowser
[ 08-04-2001: Message edited by: bowser ]
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Yeah, it looks really nice but it feels very weird to me after tuning my flying to AH. They are struggling very hard to do a good job on it in spite of Ien and I wish them luck. HS is a good programmer/developer but is, unfortunately, also a total prettythanghole and Ien is even worse. Also, WB has -bobn- ...nuff said. ;)
kbman
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so fester... with this realistic six view they do have rear view mirriors and support for as many monitors as it takes to have a 360 degree view in any direction right? corsair had three mirrors, a bulged canopy and you could look straight down over the side since the wing was forward ... I believe that the AH views in the corsair at least are less than the real plane. Perhaps WBIII has fixed this?
lazs
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Laz, you can see behind you perfectly, it is just a view down the fuselage, not a lindablair view. You also must rotate your read across the front to move from back left to back right.
Go try it, don't cost nuthin.
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I changed my mind after flying for a couple hours this morning. It's good, but let's not talk about it on HTC's board.
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"I believe that the AH views in the Corsair at least are less than the real plane."
The "6" view in the Corsair is pretty good in real life and in AH it's not too far off at all. As for looking down you're right, it is more obsturcted in AH.
Westy
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I tried it again offline anyway, and found one glaring, surprising diffrence.
In AH when you roll, as soon as you let go of the stick as in stopping the turn the aircraft freezes in that position like the air is molasses. I always wondered about that because that is not realistic imo.
In F4.0, Hornet Korea, and now WBIII, when you roll or pitch the plane, without perfect countering of a little bit of opposite stick, it doesn't just snap to that position. It has a bit of a "unsettled" feeling to it.
Really hard to describe, but all those sims behave in a more realistic manner for that one FM item.
Can anyone explain this?
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lazs your ignorance is monumental
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actually creamo that is more unrealistic
one area where htc is definitely the best among current flight sims is the flight model. control response is exactly how it should be according to my limited flight experience, and though you might thing roll intertia would play a big role, in reality it doesnt. the damping force of the air on the wing planform is very large and causes a near instantaneous cessation of angular velocity
i think in modern fly by wire planes the effect is even more instantaneous, as teh fcs provides the corrent control surface movement to counteract the (minimal) inertial effects in roll.
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the F4u rear bulkhead is several feet wide.
unless you have found a way to remove your head from your body turn it directly at the tail of the plane and then stand it on the gunsight then what AH has is NOT REALISTIC.
in a real F4u you will be able to see your 6 but only one side of your 6 at a time.
in AH you see both your left 6 and your right 6 in a single view.
linda blair lives on in AH.
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HS is adamant that he has the data on response for "many" planes and that it currently is correct. I have no opinion on the matter, and that is not why I am not thrilled with it anyway, but that is his stance.
yeah...well...
A B-29 pilot could move his elevator at 70 deg/sec with a stick force of 90-140 lbs/G. Most fighters come in around 10-20 lbs/G.
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Doh! You said how fast.
[ 08-05-2001: Message edited by: Gadfly ]
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Inertia in the roll...that's what I was trying to describe.
I don't know. I love the AH FM, I was just suspect on the pitch and escpecially roll with feeling there was no need to counter the inertia. Who knows...
And just for info, and ref to modern airliners for FM, or feel, is kinda mute.
Even if it isn't fly by wire, even old 727's have hydraulic operated control surfaces and have to have what they call feedback computers (hydromechanical devices, no computer to them actually) to give the pilot artificial feedback.
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Creamo,
It has nothing to do with fly-by-waire or any other technical gizmo.
1) The inertial weight of an aircraft in a roll is mostly at the center of the roll in the fuselage, or near it in th case of twin engined aircraft. The closer to the center of the roll, the less inertia is generated per pound of mass. At the outside of the roll there are only the wings, which are very light.
2) In a roll the wing planeform is directly impacting the air in nearly the least aerodynamic fashion, at least as far as the roll is concerned. Only the deflection of the ailerons forces the wings to move through the air in the least aerodynamic direction. When the ailerons cease to cause deflection of the air, the dominant trait becomes the massive drag of the wing's planeform and the roll ceases nearly instantly.
Look at footage of WWII aircraft. When they roll, they do so crisply. In WBIII they generally travel and additional 30 degrees and then slowly return to the intended position, or they decelerate to the intended position. View footage of WWII aircraft rolling, there is a nice shot of a Spitfire doing it at the end of the "Dark Blue World" (http://tms2.wo.cz/film/video/trailer.mpg) trailer. Notice how crisp the start and stop of the roll is.
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I tried it this morning, and though I didn't spend as much time on it as others, I didn't like it. Mainly, it was a feeling af going in slow motion and lack of feedback as to whether your bullets were hitting the target or not. Don't know which is more "real", but I like the feel of AH better. Maybe down the road things will be different, but until WB is finished and feels better to me, I will stick with AH.
Oh well, just my unenlightened opinion, seeing as, unlike everyone here it seems, I have never flown in a WW2 fighter plane.
-math
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1) Do you have to give iEN your credit card number? (I would rather extract my teeth with a rock than give iEN my credit card number again!!!!!)
2) What is the size of the download?
Ozark
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Originally posted by Ozark:
1) Do you have to give iEN your credit card number? (I would rather extract my teeth with a rock than give iEN my credit card number again!!!!!)
2) What is the size of the download?
Ozark
#1. No
#2. 81.4 mb
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"the F4u rear bulkhead is several feet wide."
No, it's not.
"in AH you see both your left 6 and your right 6 in a single view."
Technically yes. If I use the default six view I can see a *BIT* of both sides of the rudder. "Linda Blare-ish" for sure, but who cares as it's of no use at all due to the FOV being extremely limited. I (unless we have different AH versions) need to map my head position to one side or the other to see back there with an degree of usability.
Hey. Why not bring the forward views into the debate? To date no sim, I can recall except maybe fighter Duel, has modelled the huge obstructions these long noses create very well at all.
Anyone want to run with that one????
-- Westy
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westy in many planes you can put your head outside the glass. i realy like the way you can position your head to get optimal view, BUT, i think they need to re look at the view limit restrictions. especially on the old planes.
for example the 6 view of the p47-d11 and the p-51b seem realistically bounded. the me-109 or the f4u, otoh, both have too much head movement room imo. i would like them to make it so you cant put your perspective closer than say an inch from the inside of the glass.
that would be great imo.
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Thank You Jihad! <S>
Hmmm....81 megs (WBIII) Vs 18 Megs (AH).
1) Who writes a tighter code?
2) Who was on the cutting edge 2 years ago? (Remember the Buzz about movable control surfaces back then?)
3) Who would you trust with your credit card number? (We should be very thankful for Yankee!)
4) Look at the progress in the last 2 years.
To be very honest, I really wish WBIII well.
However, I will NEVER give iEN the chance to rip me off again with their lax customer service.
I guess from my point of view, it's not the sim....It's company that stands behind it that counts in my eyes.
Thank you HTC.
Ozark
<edit> added: "from my point of view"</edit>
[ 08-05-2001: Message edited by: Ozark ]
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"westy in many planes you can put your head outside the glass. i realy like the way you can position your head to get optimal view, BUT, i think they need to re look at the view limit restrictions. especially on the old planes."
I agree whole heartedly Zigrat. Several planes are too liberal with thier ability to 'stick' ones head out the side of the cockpit. The 109 is far too generous all around by quite a large margin for another example.
However I'd hesitate on asking HTC to restrict any views on high back fuselage aircarft unless those that in reality had rear view mirrors finally got them - Spit, P47D-11, F4U etc... Not sure about KI-61, ME109 etc. having them.
Westy
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What's funny is that WarBirds III DOES have the "Linda Blair" six view... :D
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Correct: if you select pan views you can't get a direct 6 Linda Blair view but if you select snap mode it's still there.
I don't think WBIII really models angular inertia. Get behind your plane in close external view and watch the ailerons in a fast roll. The ailerons take over a second to reach full deflection, and the plane starts rolling slowly and then speeds up as the aileron slowly reaches full deflection. Now rapidly center your stick. The plane keeps rolling past your desired position, but that's because the aileron takes another second to return to null. I think they just have a rate limiter on the control surfaces (including the rudder and elevators). I don't think this is realistic. As pointed out by others, if you look at movies of WWII fighters, their rolls are quick and crisp. And, if you watch cockpit camera films of modern day aerobatic pilots, they don't have to input opposite aileron to cancel "roll inertia". Aerodynamic forces apparently far outweigh the angular moments of inertia. From what I've seen on the BBSs, it seems a lot of people really dislike this aspect of the WBIII FM and it is amazing that they keep it- they would probably get more customers if they dumped the control surface rate limit code (or at least toned it down).
715
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Originally posted by Ozark:
Thank You Jihad! <S>
Hmmm....81 megs (WBIII) Vs 18 Megs (AH).
1) Who writes a tighter code?
Actually, the executable is 3.2 MByte. All the rest is data, not code. WBIII just has more data (more polygons, textures, etc.) However, so far with WBIII, there has been no incremental upgrader. Every new version you have to crank up your sorry ole' modem and spend all night downloading the whole 81 MBytes :(
715
715
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Originally posted by 715:
Actually, the executable is 3.2 MByte. All the rest is data, not code. WBIII just has more data (more polygons, textures, etc.) However, so far with WBIII, there has been no incremental upgrader. Every new version you have to crank up your sorry ole' modem and spend all night downloading the whole 81 MBytes :(
715
715
So if it is just "data" then why isn't the executeable made into a seperate download? Data only needs to be updated if there are new textures and other polygons and such, right?
So as was said, who writes tighter, more efficient code? Hmmm.. :rolleyes:
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one area where htc is definitely the best among current flight sims is the flight model. control response is exactly how it should be according to my limited flight experience, and though you might thing roll intertia would play a big role, in reality it doesnt. the damping force of the air on the wing planform is very large and causes a near instantaneous cessation of angular velocity
Try this. Take a P47D-30 with 1000lb bombs on both wings. Wind it up to 300 mph and then throw it into a fast roll.. let the roll continue for 180 degrees or so then release the stick. The Jug stops rolling IMMEDIATELY.
Immediately, with 2000lb of iron bomb hanging out there on the wings.
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Jekyll!!! So good to see you back?!? ;)
I do have to say I like the way in WB III where if you are looking at your "7" view and switch to your "5" view you pan around via the front view first. But that should be a global view setting in the program and not a selectable feature per user.
Otherwise WB III looks nice but it's not anything that knock my socks off to bother trying to learn the commands and a cod-awfull FM for a cheaper price. Even free doesn't do it. Honestly. Oh, can't forget about the distaste I'd have in flying with MG ;)
Westy
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sybiltabria... as westy says.. the overall view in the corsair is probly slightly less good in the AH corsair than in a real one. that linda blair 6 just gives you a view of the backrest that I could live without.
many planes like the corsair and spit have bulged canopies that allow you to get your head "outside the cockpit"... The 109 is of course way too generous in AH.... It is, like their 13mm, a consession that is made to the LW guys.
lazs
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Limiting your virtual head position to "real" head positions in a medium where we have nowhere near the visual quality, field of vision, depth perception, or peripheral vision, is just silly.
When I can see as good in the game as I could in real life, THEN realistic head positions make sense. Until we have a visual system that is close to the real thing, we have to have more flexibility to make up for the poor visual system we must deal with.
HTC does the best job I've seen so far of striking that balance.
Lephturn
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Considering I'm lacking just about all the real world peripherial abilities on a flat 2D monitor, I think the Linda Blair views is a top priority to me in a flight sim.
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Originally posted by Jekyll:
Try this. Take a P47D-30 with 1000lb bombs on both wings. Wind it up to 300 mph and then throw it into a fast roll.. let the roll continue for 180 degrees or so then release the stick. The Jug stops rolling IMMEDIATELY.
Immediately, with 2000lb of iron bomb hanging out there on the wings.
Do you have any idea of the massive force of the air flowing over those wings? There are thousands of pounds per square meter being applied, while I do think the AH flight model is a tad too sharp, especially at low speeds, the WB flight model is ridiculously soft.
Warbirds: The absolute finest realistic simulation of WW2 era aircraft flying through grandma's old fasion pudding ever release to the public.
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Since pudding is more dense than air wouldnt that be more descriptive of AH's flight model?
:p
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I downloaded it, didn't like it. Felt "cartoonish" to me. Tough to explain, but I just didn't bond with it. Heck I havn't really bonded with anything since I played Air Warrior Classic Full Real Euro arena. Polygon mountains and big blue squares for lakes. But oh to have my old 38 back. *sniff*
Aces High is the best out there now though.
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lephturn with the icons and snap views we have, we have visual abilities in the game far above those of real life, so saying we need artificially high head movement ability is rediculous
in real life you dont get a red icon to pick out a green colored bandit (example a6m) against a green background
in real life you dont know the exact distance to target
in real life it could be easy to confuse a la5 from a fw-190 from a few thousand yards
in real life to check your six required you to actually look around. if you were pulling 4 g at the tinme, this could be difficult. not so in here.
you get the idea.
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guess a shoulda read this thread before I spent 2 hours trial and error with the joystick sliders in wbiii................
what piece o'shyte
what are they flying on ice in there :)
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One thing I hadn't noticed in WBIII until last night (which is a very nice feature) is this:
Go to pan view and pan to your back right view. Your head not only rotates, but also moves closer to the right side cockpit sill, simulating moving both your head and shoulders to the right.
So as you check your 5 and 7 positions you have your head and upper body 'doing the walking'.
The FM's in WBIII take a LOT of getting used to, but the close in gunnery sure makes for more exciting air combat IMO. No more "shoot once the range counter hits 500".
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"shoot once the range counter hits 500"?
Damn yer gunnery is a heck of alot better than mine... wow.
<edit>
Erhm I better amend that... I don't know what yer saying here. If you mean go ahead and take a crack when the enemy is at 500, sure... iffin ya got the ammo to spare and are feelin' lucky, why not. Who knows, the odd time you do get a break. No question about it.
But if yer saying though that opening up at 500 out is a guarantee of anything, I applaud your gunnery. Better than most folks here. Can't see why that makes unrealistic roll, syrup air, dang nose bounce, wothaveya any more...erhm... realistic.
I'm sure the programmers can come up with a million ways of making your gunnery practically impossible if that's what yer looking for.
Granted it may make things "more exciting"... but I'm hard pressed to see where that makes it right. But hey... what you enjoy is what you enjoy. No argument here about that.
[ 08-07-2001: Message edited by: Nash ]
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I don't agree Zigrat.
We don't have any peripheral vision in the game. That's a big deal. That combined with our incredibly reduced field of vision means that it is silly to restrict head positions to "historical" ones.
Now, you raised some other points. Yep, Icons give us a lot of info. Icon styles, ranges, and range counters are separate issue from the head restrictions in my mind. If you are getting too much information, then maybe the icon/rangefinder deal needs to be changed.
However, it's not all about "realism". If you make it real enough, it just gets incredibly difficult and eventually stops being fun. You've got to find the right compromise, and I like HTC's compromise.
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first, there's been a lot of talk about what "feels right." SWulfe, where are ya??? Shoot 'em down!!! :D
as to WBIII... My squaddies are here, not there. :)
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Zig....
I'm not aware of your RL flight experience, but drawing on mine, you most certainly can identify aircraft at 3k...if you can't, you had better stay on the ground.
Lephturn makes the only valid point in this thread relating to visual aids...it's 2D...without these aids, I'de be flying with all twenty of you realism guys in a sim too difficult for the masses to enjoy.
Of course, I'm assuming that you understand the concept of capitalism and that HTC shows up daily for the sole purpose of cashflowing their company...it's not, nor can it be, about realism exclusively.
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Juzz, wb3 offers several different view modes, which the host can limit.
It can have the linda blair view turned off by the host. It also has G-limited pan views, as well as the instant views. Personally I hate pan views due to the disorientation it promotes.
SKurj
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I can look out my window at the road (over a mile away), and easily identify the types of cars driving down it. Heck I can see how many people are in them. When you can give me that visual quality, I'll gladly go without icons.
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Just to clear up a few misconceptions...
--There is a Linda Blair view in WB3. You can enable/disable it by typing .lindablair (no kidding) ;)
--Depending on the FOV you select (55, 75, or 90 degrees) it is possible to see "extra" when using the left/back and right/back views, so you can interpret this as either analagous to the AH "outside the canopy" view or as "making up for lack of mirrors" I guess. I use the 75-degree as a good compromise, and I have to check both back views to clear my six. Compared to the old WB, six view obstructions are not much of a factor. Hellcat is the worst, so far, but even that one is workable. Kick the rudder a bit and check both rear views and you'll know what's back there.
--Roll inertia is ALWAYS present, in EVERY airplane. It is a physical impossibility for a rolling airplane to stop rolling "instantly." In almost every case, a "crisp" termination of the roll would require a "counter-roll" stick input. All you have to do is watch one of those acro competitions on TV to see this (or of course do some acro flying yourself). The only question is "how long does it take" for the roll to stop once the ailerons are neutralized. WB probably takes TOO long, but AH's "instantly" isn't right either. It would also vary with different planes, in terms of initial roll force applied by cable-driven or hydraulically-boosted controls, airspeed, and even cockpit design, i.e. hard to get full aileron in a 109 due to leverage available, seat position, etc.
--WB3 FMs are essentially unchanged, other than some possible accidental changes and a bug or two. The Center of Gravity is supposedly now dynamically calculated, and the drag from the external stores is finally modeled, so at least those "building blocks" are in place when they do get around to looking at the FM again. But right now, it won't "feel" much different from WB2.
--At the moment, they appear to be trying to compete with AH on the basis of eye candy, (where they might be ahead) and "extra toys" like tanks and artillery (where they'll get whupped IMO since HTC has a big head start and can build em faster) and ignoring the places where they have the biggest problems (FM and DM are WAY overdue for an update, and of course there is still nothing new on the "strategic front" that we haven't already seen in either DOA or AH).
So, IMO, if you were expecting WB3 to be "The Holy Grail of Flight Simmers" that maybe AH and WW2OL haven't turned out to be, well, it's not that. At least not yet. It's a good-looking sim to play, with good "immersion" provided by the upgraded visuals, but it's the same game it always was, with now a few AH features thrown in, and a different FM feel from what you have here.
It's worth the free download IMO, since you can play it offline and the drones make decent gunnery practice, and it's "pretty." :) Hardware requirements are a lot steeper than AH tho. 256 Meg RAM is the min, and a GF2-class vidcard is the least you'd want to try with (although TNT2 will sometimes work). You can get away with a Pentium 400 or so, but don't expect good frame rates in heavy action with that. P-800 or so is fine.
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"Depending on the FOV you select (55, 75, or 90 degrees) it is possible to see "extra" when using the left/back and right/back views, so you can interpret this as either analagous to the AH "outside the canopy" view or as "making up for lack of mirrors" I guess."
Just a minor clarification, I believe this feature (fully dynamic in AH and a stepped feature in WBIII and WW2O) is to allow a "pilot" to use a more natural field of view, with better visuals on the enemy, when in combat. The standard 90deg FOV is completely bogus but meant to get more of the "world" viewable on a flat 2D monitor for us 'virtual' pilots.
In none of these programs is this feature used as a trade off for lack of anything, like mirrors. They are honest attempts (and it works IMO) to give the'virtual fighter pilot' a regular FOV for use in combat.
However where WBIII and WW2O will only zoom in or out AH does that but AH also allows one to move the virutal head left right, up or down inside the cockpit in real time. With this I can try and see around canopy framing while crusing along looking for cons. This is especially nice in the P-38 or the ME 109's for example, where as in the others I cannot.
Westy
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Originally posted by jedi:
Just to clear up a few misconceptions...
--There is a Linda Blair view in WB3. You can enable/disable it by typing .lindablair (no kidding) ;)
--Depending on the FOV you select (55, 75, or 90 degrees) it is possible to see "extra" when using the left/back and right/back views, so you can interpret this as either analagous to the AH "outside the canopy" view or as "making up for lack of mirrors" I guess. I use the 75-degree as a good compromise, and I have to check both back views to clear my six. Compared to the old WB, six view obstructions are not much of a factor. Hellcat is the worst, so far, but even that one is workable. Kick the rudder a bit and check both rear views and you'll know what's back there.
--Roll inertia is ALWAYS present, in EVERY airplane. It is a physical impossibility for a rolling airplane to stop rolling "instantly." In almost every case, a "crisp" termination of the roll would require a "counter-roll" stick input. All you have to do is watch one of those acro competitions on TV to see this (or of course do some acro flying yourself). The only question is "how long does it take" for the roll to stop once the ailerons are neutralized. WB probably takes TOO long, but AH's "instantly" isn't right either. It would also vary with different planes, in terms of initial roll force applied by cable-driven or hydraulically-boosted controls, airspeed, and even cockpit design, i.e. hard to get full aileron in a 109 due to leverage available, seat position, etc.
--WB3 FMs are essentially unchanged, other than some possible accidental changes and a bug or two. The Center of Gravity is supposedly now dynamically calculated, and the drag from the external stores is finally modeled, so at least those "building blocks" are in place when they do get around to looking at the FM again. But right now, it won't "feel" much different from WB2.
--At the moment, they appear to be trying to compete with AH on the basis of eye candy, (where they might be ahead) and "extra toys" like tanks and artillery (where they'll get whupped IMO since HTC has a big head start and can build em faster) and ignoring the places where they have the biggest problems (FM and DM are WAY overdue for an update, and of course there is still nothing new on the "strategic front" that we haven't already seen in either DOA or AH).
So, IMO, if you were expecting WB3 to be "The Holy Grail of Flight Simmers" that maybe AH and WW2OL haven't turned out to be, well, it's not that. At least not yet. It's a good-looking sim to play, with good "immersion" provided by the upgraded visuals, but it's the same game it always was, with now a few AH features thrown in, and a different FM feel from what you have here.
It's worth the free download IMO, since you can play it offline and the drones make decent gunnery practice, and it's "pretty." :) Hardware requirements are a lot steeper than AH tho. 256 Meg RAM is the min, and a GF2-class vidcard is the least you'd want to try with (although TNT2 will sometimes work). You can get away with a Pentium 400 or so, but don't expect good frame rates in heavy action with that. P-800 or so is fine.
Great response jedi. No emotion involved just the way you see it.
TY
ammo
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Give these reality freaks the HA already.
Real ground distance to targets (7-8 hour missions), no icons, no autopilot unless a plane was so equipped, no talking to other planes unless tuned directly to that flight,(no check 6 calls accordingly) no zoom, no ammo counters, no moving your head under G unless you pass a physical prior to enrolling in the HA, with the medical papers sent in and approved by HTC (your head movment and durability will be calculated and downloaded as a special patch from that) no radar in flight, you will have to rely on country chat or for updates (heh, yeah right), no autotrim, no auto takeoff, no combat trim, YOU WILL have Supreme Commanders that choose your missions, no reupping, limited planeset and your aircraft decided by your commander, no open channel chat period for fun, meeting new people, friendly banter or baiting the NME, your country plane will only have updates in that specific language and all radio chat will be in that language, (ex. 109's only see German writing on maps and on the radio), your country is alotted X amount of planes, when they are used up, you cant fly anymore, you man a radar station and fall asleep, no HOOPTY TWISTY STICKS!, you have to have proof of puchase of a CH PRO or equivalent rudder set, and seperate throttle and stick with picture to enroll, no film option enabled to learn your mistakes in combat, no stats after you get killed, you can't "Spawn" anywhere, you must have a country mate hook up the tug and tractor bar and tow you to the flight line, no ALT TABing and posting nonsense roadkill like this while flying 20 minutes in autopilot grabbing, no pinpoint bombing, you will need 50-150 B17's to knock out factories, no perk points, you can fly the planes in a rotating fashion, the HA starting in next tour being 1939, 6 real years later you get the ME262, did I say NO HOOPTY TWISTY STICKS!?, chute kills blow off chunks of meat and spray red, no running off a runway and your gear not blowing off and plowing a ditch, no reasonably solution to views, they will all be difficult and on your 2D monitor, once you sit down, you can't leave your chair (cockpit) for any reason (new beer, door, crap, nap, a pull, or a samich) or you will be disconnected from the game, and for Gods Sakes, no whoopee Hoopty Twisty Sticks!
I like AH like it is, trust HTC, yet no it's not perfect. Why guys spend weeks, and months, telling Hitech how to make it cater to small groups is a bit silly.
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--Roll inertia is ALWAYS present, in EVERY airplane. It is a physical impossibility for a rolling airplane to stop rolling "instantly." In almost every case, a "crisp" termination of the roll would require a "counter-roll" stick input. All you have to do is watch one of those acro competitions on TV to see this (or of course do some acro flying yourself). The only question is "how long does it take" for the roll to stop once the ailerons are neutralized. WB probably takes TOO long, but AH's "instantly" isn't right either. It would also vary with different planes, in terms of initial roll force applied by cable-driven or hydraulically-boosted controls, airspeed, and even cockpit design, i.e. hard to get full aileron in a 109 due to leverage available, seat position, etc.
.
With all due respect, and talking about the plane I most have problems with in the WB FM, the 190 .
In WB tHe FW190 takes well more than one second to change roll direction. In RL the change of direction was almost instant, for all the reports I've read on the matter.
A little plane with the exceptionally small wing surface of the Fw190 has very little inertia to overcome. The first 190 prototypes sported an even smaller wing. Finally the bigger wing was used because it improved the plane low speed handling while having a NEGLIGIBLE effect on the roll.
And with effective ailerons as the ones in the 190, the roll could be stopped and reversed in a heartbeat. In AH it can be done and feels "right" (SW will kill me for daring to say that something "feels right" ;)). In WB you feel like in a Jumbo Jet.
AH has a lot of things better than WB. WB has a lot of things better than AH. I would like (as almost everyone here) a good compromise between both.
But, overall I think that AH's fm is better than WB's.
[ 08-09-2001: Message edited by: R4M ]
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Creamo either you are joking or an extremist amazinhunk idiot.
Which is it?
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It always can be both, grunherz :)
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fore one i really like Creamos opinion this time :)
and on the "instant" stopping of a roll... I do aerobatics (ok not advanced but i do) and usually the plane will have stopped rollling by the time it takes you to mave the stick from full deflection to centered.. usually you overcontroll the roll by not moving the stick fast enough or starting your input too late, not because the plane keeps rolling.
DW6
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Lemme guess Grunterdz, you have a Hoopty Twisty Stick.
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I see creamo is still upset I carbombed his retared vulching bellybutton once 6 month ago.
Creamo is such a tard he cant even vulch right.....
And yes I have twisty stick..
I vote #2!
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ:
I see creamo is still upset I carbombed his retared vulching bellybutton once 6 month ago.
Creamo is such a tard he cant even vulch right.....
Where's that dolt "Ruskie" when you need him?
-SW
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I want to hear the "historic" "realism" crowds explanation for why we shouldn't have each and every one of creamos ideas in the HA or combat arena. Please be specific about each item mentioned.
thank you
lazs
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rofl!
Creamo and lazs have joined forces in the bashing of the new arena.
:D
Here's an idea, if you don't like it, don't fly there! You guys shouldn't feel inferior because you like more radar, etc. It doesn't make you less of a man, it just means you can't hang with the real men, that's all. No reason to be so self-conscious about it, no reason to go on the attack.
Lighten up fellas.
:)
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I haven't commented on the new HA HB, certainly haven't bashed it. Relax. You will ahve plenty of time to spout off, and all your LW quitting buddies now have a perfect excuse to fianlly get back into AH without being totally humiliated, which is a good thing.
I made a goof on all the realism nuts yesterday as I was bored. HTC released a "Combat Arena" sometime last night. And it's not a HA arena that I envisioned, it's like a scenario I played with Skernsk one Sunday. It was fun. Skernsk spotted all the dots, which were LAncasters... we slaughtered them before Tempests slaughtered us. :)
There's 0 people in there now, so i'll wait till you realism fanatics get in there and have fun too.
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Just playin creamo.
:D
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Well of course, me too. You the rabbit!
(http://www.corecomm.net/~russr/pics/kermit.gif)
(credits-the best thing WWIIOL BBS ever provided. This guy rocks)
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I'd like to hear the "furballin fun" crowd's explanation for why we need stalls, or spins, or "realistic" gunnery and damage then :rolleyes: I mean, if you're gonna have fantasy, why limit yourself to "real" physics? ;)
It just boils down to what level of "realism" is necessary to pass your individual threshold of "I'm having fun now." If there are enough guys who don't reach that level until they are fighting "historical foes," and they want to have their own arena, I don't think the fact that that decreases the number of guys who are forced into a furball arena they don't enjoy is a particularly good reason to deny them that arena.
Of course, there is always that nagging possibility that so many folks will want to fly in that other arena that the "captive audience" of the furball fans will disappear, I suppose... :eek:
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Not sure who the “Furballing Crowd” is?
But if it means keeping the MA to a point where you find hard core ACM driving fighting within 10 minutes of logging in, base capture, and defense fighting because you have a clue of what’s going on via radar, I’m one of those.
why we need stalls, or spins, or "realistic" gunnery and damage then I mean, if you're gonna have fantasy, why limit yourself to "real" physics?
Please- It’s that extreme of removing yourself from the reality of AH in a gameplay sense, you back up my goofing on the realist crowd tenfold.
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actually jedi that's no problem to explain.... certainly if you are interested in WWII ac and a good fite then ALL you will care about is that the FM's, damage and gunnery are accurate. Maybe i would add "parity" to the list and "fites easy to get into with lot's of action". To not care if you have "historic" flight times, distances, preflight checkouts and the silly limited same ol same ol of axis vs allied drivel seems perfectly reasonable to me. I want to see how a Corsair would have done against a yak or a Tempest. I want to have to figure out the FMs of the 4 or five different types of planes on each side of a fite (an allmost infinite number of possibilities) I don't want to witness "the 109 move against the spit move" over and over. my threshold of boredom is less than the "historic" guys.
on the other hand... The hypocritical insistance on "realism", as it applies to history, but in EXTREMLY selective ways is laughable. To be sensitive to people pointing it out is even more laughable... To fly short icons and axis vs allied and to have that make you feel as tho you are a real WWII pilot is more laughable yet. feeling "elite" or somehow more skilled in such a silly invironment is the most laughable of all.
lazs
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The funny thing about this is I agree with Lazs to some extent (on using the words "historic" and "realistic" selectively, and definitely on those who act superior because they prefer one stance over the other). However, lazs reinforces the point of having the axis vs allied arena when he says he wants to see how a corsair fares against a yak as his argument for having the MA. Some people don't care one bit about fighting a Yak or Spit or Corsair in a Corsair. They want to fight 109s and 190s in Spitfires, or Zekes in Hellcats. Personally, I want exactly what is provided now. A choice between the two!
As for that super "realistic" stuff... It should only be added as optional fluff. No one should be asked to learn how to properly prep a plane for start up, taxi, take-off. No one should be asked to learn how to managed every minute detail of the engine during flight. If you want to learn how to do that (and it's added as an option) then go right ahead and use it. If this makes me not a die-hard flight "simmer", guess what? I don't care!! I'm here to have fun, and micro-managing every nuance of flight isn't what I had in mind. ;)
I've got what I want right now, and I'm happy! (would be even happier if I could switch sides in the new arena more than once every 24 hrs!) Lazs has his fantasy plane match-ups, and he seems happy in the MA. hb has the new arena with axis vs allies and he seems happy. so guys... why do we STILL have to squeak and whine at each other??? We've all got options for fun! Oh yeah, some people do have fun squeaking and whining!!! :D
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About roll inertia in aerobatic planes. I'm not a world class competitor or anything, but i have about 10 hours of aerobatic time, 3 of it training, 2 in competition, and a few after that dual for unusual attitude training at the Western Michgian University school of aviation Extra 300's. The acro competition i did was in a super decathalon with spades, and it rolled at about 120 deg/sec. Roll inertia at high speed was pretty hard to notice. Maybe a lead roll out angle of 10 or 15 degrees was all that was necessary. I don't know for sure since my maneuvers weren't perfect, but i could consistantly roll out within 5 deg of level. In the extra 300 I noticed zero lag. The roll rate built in no time, and a whole 360 degree roll was completed in about a second. I instinctively tried to counter the momentum, like I do in most flight sims, and I ended up rolling back through level. This was a level "slow" roll at abotu 150 knots. I didn't have time to add in rudder correction, and just pulsated down elevator for the inverted portion in order to keep the roll fairly axial.
When I did notice roll inertia in the Super Decathalon was during snap rolls. I had trouble getting those to come out right, and usually lead out by about 60 degrees from level. This includes breaking the stall by releasing the backpressure, applying some opposite rudder, and when the stall is broken, ailerons can be used to smoothly finish the roll. In the decathalon this was a tricky maneuver, and I didn't try them in the extra.
Who was it who kept talking about flying one of the Crazy Horse P-51 two seaters? I remember him saying that there was little roll inertia noticable. Granted, this was a lightly fueled fighter with no bombs, so that would make a big difference compared to the P-47 with 2 1000 lbers mentioned earlier..
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Yes, but what Jekyll was implying is that because WB has massive roll inertia it (may) better model an unusual situation it is therefore more realistc than AH which does not have massive roll inertia and therefore better models common situations.
Gack, run-on-sentence from hell.
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Lazs, the "furball guys" and the "realism guys" are the SAME guys IMO. Your "realism slider" is set to "real airplanes, real flight model, real gunnery and damage." Mine is pushed farther towards "Anal" because I also want "actual enemy planes" too. Some other guys push theirs over to "no icons."
I don't interpret the preference for Axis-Allied as "hypocrisy" simply because there aren't enough Axis planes to round out the planeset or that the "war" isn't sophisticated enough to accurately simulate ALL the factors that impacted the "historical" air war.
Guys who use the "Well, you don't REALLY die when you get shot down, and your plane never has a mechanical failure, so why should you expect to face historical enemy aircraft?" argument are guilty of using hyperbolic logic IMO. It's not a serious argument, but just a throwaway line for others who feel the same way to say "Yeah! What he said!"
FWIW, I understand what you're getting at, and I don't have any problem with that style of play--I just don't want to be "forced" to fly in that kind of arena any more than you want to have your Spit v Corsair fights taken away from you. There's nothing inherently "superior" in an Axis-Allied setup, it's just preferable to some folks, and my personal preferences stop well short of the no-icon, no-clue, shoot-em-in-the-back-and-fly-home-alone "hairshirt" arenas that some folks claim are "ultra-realistic" when they're really just "SA-over-challenged."
And for Creamo, do you ever actually make a reasoned argument yourself, or does your debating skill consist entirely of attacking the people who disagree with your infallible position instead of their arguments? :rolleyes:
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Ummm WB3 tried it, really nice selection of A/C, get about 1/2 the frame rate I do in AH (1600x1200 32bit standard) and the planes "jump" about considerably.
It looks interesting but offers nothing that would entice me to stay there.
P3-650@760
512MB PC133 RAM
SB Live
GeForce DDR
Cable Modem
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Your foolish mind tricks will not work on me boy!
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And for Creamo, do you ever actually make a reasoned argument yourself, or does your debating skill consist entirely of attacking the people who disagree with your infallible position instead of their arguments?
Hmmm. Ok, blow me.
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[ 08-10-2001: Message edited by: Creamo ]
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Heyas again...
HOLY SHT!! ez-mode... what a bloody travesty combining RR and FR in the same arena. With ez on you can maintain control of the aircraft at speeds below 100mph whether going vertical or in an 80 deg bank...
Guess I'll be back soon...
SKurj
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jedi.. ... u are correct. we all have a "slider" that we use so far as "realism" goes. I suppose that that same type of "slider" could be used for "fun" and "imersion". IMO.... The most fun is the most variety and parity. I believe this is a given. It is obvious to anyone that the more variety and parity in a fight the more complex (and ultimately less boring) the fights will be.
For some... perhaps yourself, variety and parity are not as important as "immersion", the feeling that they are "real" WWII pilots recreating or reenacting "history". that of course does not change the fact that variety and parity are still the most complex fites.
personally... I have a large WWII library and am pretty well versed on "history". I have no desire to try to recreate it ina..... game. I especially do not wish to recreate it at the expense of complex, variety filled fites. My threshold for watching the same ol same ol spit meets 109/190 move is very low. No amount of telling myself I am a fighter pilot can negate that.
What i am interested in is the same thing that all those "real" pilots were... "How does this baby do"... I would venture to say that there were 10 times as many Corsair vs P47 or hellcat or mustantg or spit or whatever "fights" in the war as there ever were Corsair vs Ki84 or nik or even zeke. the only difference is we get to shoot and they didn't. I can't imagine one of those pilots that wouldn't relish the opportunity to fly "fantasy arena".... Hell... they did it allmost every day.
in short..... I'm right and your a poo poo head.
lazs
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Well, Lazs, I'd try to continue the argument, but Creamo's eloquent response has so unnerved my poo-poo head that I just can't think of anything intelligent to say :rolleyes:
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jedi.. creamo tends to be a triffle more abrasive than even i. That does not change the fact that you are mired in the sludge that is 'axis vs allied'... It's a shame really... a fine mind gone to waste... burned to a crisp by the same ol 109/190 vs spit moves as surely as if you had watched TV commercials for all those hours instead. Somehow forgeting that the promise to fix six views and FM's is over 3 years now... defending the damage model "daily spin" and buying the "we have fixed the invulnerable 109 damage model again but are unable to fix it's twice normal ammo load"...
I just got tired of buying beer for the guys who were pissing down my neck and telling me it was warm rain. These guys here have been pretty up front this incarnation and pretty responsive plus.... The guns work, you can see behind ya and the damage model is at least fair... The planes perform pretty accurately compared to each other IMO... the corsair is slightly porky but not enough to get excited about.... The LW guys here are screaming like little girls and threatening to hold their breath till they turn blue so... Things must be modeled pretty fairly wouldn't you say? many have went back to you guys so what does that say about WB?
It was my opinion in WB that kissing their butt and giving em slack just made em more arrogant... dragging em naked and screaming into the light had slightly more effect but was temporrary at best. I just got tired of the fruitless struggle. Here... They ignore our rants but.... lay enough data on em and they actually admit that they may not be right!! wait, it get's better, they actually fix it in a timely manner in most cases! If enough people want something they will try to work it in. But then, even a cursory glance at this BB will show that I am a butt smootching HTC cheerleader of the highest magnitude. Still... that does not change the fact that..... I am right and you are a poo poo head.
lazs
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Ah, Lazs, I see your...dubious..."sense of humor" has somehow remained intact despite your brainwashing into the HTC idol-worshipping Thuggi sect.
Your long-term memory appears to have suffered a bit tho--it's the ammo load of the 109 that was "fixed," the damage model is still painfully titanious ;)
As for the rest, well, I Quixotically (go look that up Creamo, if your Phun With Phonix dictionary has words with over 2 syllables) hold out hope that iEN will at some point remember that the "flight" part of flight sim is the only thing that can save their rapidly sinking ship. HTC, although they have taken a few halting steps toward "historical" play, is still firmly dependent upon an arena system that I was tired of 4 years ago, and shows no sign of thinking outside the box, content to improve the "technical quality" of their sim without having to venture out into the deep water of "something new." Nothing wrong with that, of course, and if I have to choose between two "non-historical" sims with gladiator gameplay, I suspect I'd end up here, where the FM is a tad better and at least the developers don't think their customers are idiots. (I thought I'd have to change my handle, but if they let YOU in...) ;) iEN at least TALKS about doing something different, although who knows what they'll actually deliver. If they don't, and merely succumb to the same old main arena syndrome, well, I'll be a man without a country I guess :(
At least for a while. ;) There are other fish frying...
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Get ahold of yourself Jedi, don't get obsessed unless your going to send in fanclub dues.
(http://www.matthoffman.cc/bb/tard.jpg)
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Creamo-
Saw that over on the WWIIO BBS. Those kids do come up with some creative stuff, don't they. ;)
Jedi-
I can empathize with anyone tired of the same old thing. Still, go visit WWIIO and see what happens when attempts to push the boundaries go awry. The concept is revolutionary, but the execution sets new standards for disaster.
"Craptacular!" Lum the Mad
"1-Star!" PC Gamer
"I can't get this thing to work!" The large angry mob just outside of Bedford, Texas.
I don't want to pull this off too far, just suffice to say it is better that HTC focuses strongly on one aspect of the game (F/M) and add other elements to enhance, but not be the focus of, the game. You should fly over there- I took a Stuka, rolled into knife-edge and climbed to 6K without losing speed. ROC was similar to level flight, and then when I did level the Stuka wouldn't hold the alt. Wrong, very obviously wrong. You know what the suggested workaround was (by the patrons of the board, of course)?
Don't fly knife-edge.
Now there is a game that deserves the title of "Worst Turd Ever Crapped Upon the Gaming Public", beating out such scams as "Battlecruiser 2000" and "TAS". There is a diamond in the huge, steaming turd, but how much crap can you stand getting to it?
Their reach exceeded their grasp. Before iEN or HTC chases CRS down that road to folly they'd better be certain they have adequate resources to do so.
"We traced the problems down to the Cisco routers." hehe, yeah right.
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jedi... believe it or not I have given this whole thing a tiny bit of thought over the years... I have come to the conclussion that...
What is so new and fresh and revolutionalry about a 60 year old war that has been written about in enough pages to circle the earth? The air combat in WWII would have been boring in the extreme if you weren't actually flying and if your life (and others) wasn't at risk.
We arent actually flying and our lives aren't at risk. The more historical we go the more toward boredom we go (see my above posts).
My idea for a good, durable and fun (yes "fun" is why we are here) arena remains one with the most parity and variety and action. I realize that people will get bored and, if so called "historical" types, frustrated with this from time to time and so I feel that "scenarios" run alongside the MA are the answer.
You need a lot of organization and leadership and disipline to recreat historical missions. A scenario that is scheduled is the answer. People like me can just ignore em. If a scenario ran 24/7 no one would put up with it tho. As paying customers and human beings 99% of us are anarchists so far as multiplayer goes. We would quickly tire of being told what to do (except those who thing that living with their parents at 35 is a good idea).
An HA type of arena is the worst of all worlds.... It is in no way (except for a resemblace to historical planeset) "historical". It is anarchy without varity or parity. It is a formula for disaster... Uneven numbers, bizzare substitutions, huge ac superiority issues and it supplies food for endless "your plane is too uber" debate...
No one (very few) will go into an HA for long unless forced. Our HA will just fade away unless they shut down the MA. Scenarios are as highly praised as they are sparsley attended.
What I wanted in WB was a three sided fight with non historical but fair planeset and good (comparitive) FM's, damage models and gunnery. I got it in AH (after the 1.03 FM abortion left) and it is just as I had hoped. I would love to have some sort of "area" arena or even a modified RPS so that we don't keep getting a faster and faster arena but I'm sure they know what's going on. We got a 262 and a hurri for new planes... a strang set of new planes for the current arena indeed!
So... quit being a martyr.. and quit having your heart broken over there. You are like the bride waiting at the alter into the night... come on over here and have..... fun. Ya poo poo head.
lazs
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In response to Creamo's picture of a kid running in the special olympics:
Where the hell is that dipshit Ruskie???
;)
-SW
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Originally posted by SWulfe:
In response to Creamo's picture of a kid running in the special olympics: Where the hell is that dipshit Ruskie??? ;)
-SW
(My apologies to those who read this post before editing. I have edited out unnecessary derogatory comments)
It appears that HTC supports this kind of message board behavior as acceptable, so there's little else to add.
I've seen enough for my taste so to make your lives less stressful, this is my last post and I'm moving on to something more mature that has a better sense of community values with more tolerance for others.
[ 08-14-2001: Message edited by: Ruskie ]
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Ah, you should have left in the part that me and SWulf and our "cronies" were not out of puberty, our lives had no worth, and all that personal attacking stuff.
It sure made your "community values" part quite a bit more entertaining if not ironic.
The "woe is me, HTC promotes this behavior" bit is alittle over doing it and a cheap stab at them for you to use it as a argument.
Some people aren't so anal that they don't just shake their heads and move past the silly toejam on a BBS realizing it's mostly in responce to the super serious crowd who gets all defensive at the drop of a hat. Relax.
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Ah man.. I missed him flying off the handle again?
I loved his hypocritical remarks, they were so... ironic. ;)
-SW
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hey.. give em a break. The PC crowd is having a really tough time stirring up a lynch mob these days. sometimes people even question THEIR values and motives.
lazs
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"I've seen enough for my taste so to make your lives less stressful, this is my last post and I'm moving on to something more mature that has a better sense of community values with more tolerance for others."
Doesn't exist on the internet.
Westy
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I've seen enough for my taste so to make your lives less stressful, this is my last post and I'm moving on to something more mature that has a better sense of community values with more tolerance for others.
Its always sad to see another alias chose to "leave".
Best of luck with your other handle(s)!
AKDejaVu
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Wow,
I wish I had jumped in this thread earlier before it turned into a name calling contest.
Two quick things.
1. The WB3 FM is the worst I have ever flown. Mushy is an understatement. It is barely posible to deflect your elevators a few degrees without getting the stall buzzer going but the ailerons take forever to get started. If that game where a horse they would shoot it. I do not have much to compare it to but I have this. About 6 months ago I flew at Air Combat USA in their 2 seat fighters. We pulled 4.5 G's in our Yo, Yo's loops and turns and let me tell you Aces High is about right on. If you have your hand on the yoke and think about banking left you will begin to bank. When you are pulling G's and turning at speed you feel like you are on rails not on a mud track. And when you do hit an accelerated stall the A/C buffets like railroad tracks and then you Accelerate out of it and you feel the acceleration even more than AH. Not at all like you are hanging from a wall suspended by bubble gum like WB3 or CFS2.
Make no mistake about it these are high performance A/C. They handle like a Porshe not a station wagon.
2. The 6 view in WB3 is really more realistic that AH. But it wouldn't hurt the F4U/F6F that much as it does the P-51/P-47. Face there is no real 6 view unless you have a rear view mirror in your cockpit.