Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: lazs2 on July 07, 2002, 09:16:07 AM
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Ak's made a map and are now being very thin skinned about any critisism of it.
first off... they act like the entire community begged em to spend countless hours on a map and then.... after they had done all this labor for free... we pounded them with venemous, ungrateful vitroholic whines.
I would simply like to mention that I never asked em to do anything. I would have been just as happy (or unhappy) if they didn't bother and we had the new release with the old maps... I would also like to point out that..... by a large margin.... the worst venom and vitriol.... comes from the defenders of the map... not the detractors.
lazs
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I think I am starting to agree more and more with lazs.
I had thought, and maybe this is still the case, that folks were mostly trying the new buff model and the new planes and such that they were avoiding the pitched fights.
It doesnt seem to be changing. With the exception of the alts I like the map a lot. A big Salute to the aks who put the effort into it. My problem with the map doesnt have anything to do with the map itself. It with the nature of folks in the main. Its the same thing we have seen in the ct. Its the same thing I have seen in WB3 main. Folks follow the path of least resistance. They rather spend their time milkrunning then fighting. Which is fine they have every right to play this game and to have fun where they can find it. But for me and a lot of other folks it will get boring really fast.
The biggest attraction of AH for me over the past tours has been the gameplay. I never really cared for "strat" I like to fight. The quality and frequency of "good fights" has declined.
To demonstrate my point I have killed more m3s then any other thing in ah.
I have defended this map and asked folks to give it time. I havent seen the large number of folks in the main like I did pre 1.10. The most I have seen was 370. a week or so prior I saw nights where we hiy over 500.
As crowded as the other maps were and as much as hate mindinao I am to the point where I miss them.
S!
AKs thanks for the work.
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Agree with the two above posts 100%
One thing that might really help the AKDESERT map might be if they re-designed it somewhat, so that each country starts with ownership of one "slice" of the pie, instead of 1/3 of each one. That should have the effect of reducing the mulkrunning and would concentrate the front somewhat, while still allowing for plenty of open area.
J_A_B
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What I dont understand is why people come here to complain about the map, the kill messages, the strat system, the bomber model instead of just trying to make the best of it.
As for this map, and this version...people will do their thing.
The furballers will attract to eachother, they always do. And if you find that there are not so many big furballs around, perhaps that might indicate that not everyone likes these furballs? The strat guys will attack and defend along some frontline. The buff pilots will up from some desolate field and fly for an hour or two before they get to destroy something and return home. The gv pounders will find their battles, etc etc etc.
The point is, relax ...and play.
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Something I've noticed...
Most of the AKs have said "give it a chance" at the worst... with a few reactions when comments got really rude.
The STFU comments came from others in the community that feel most of the comments are way out of line and totally unmerrited.
Its not a matter of being thin skinned. It is a matter of growing tired of watching the same group of people continually attack virtually every aspect of the game.
My god lazs... you even had the gall to come here and say... "I found a really awesome furball... but there weren't enough of them." You've completely lost track of what it was you were trying to defend or accomplish and have just taken to slamming everything.
This post is just another in a long string of them from you lazs.
AKDejaVu
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What I dont understand is why people come here to complain about the map
This is a discussion board about the game. Where else should players post thier feelings about such a big change in game play??
You think we should accept and play on and not voice our opinions about something that we are not happy about? This isnt a case of looking a gift horse in the mouth, we pay MONEY to play this game and we damn well have a right to an opinion, whether you agree or not.
This is one time I am 100% in agreement with lazs2.
Dago
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The new map is awesome
It has something for everyone.
The high alt bases help bombers and hi alt fiters quickly get to their proper fighting element.
The "zones" expand the strat.
The deep valleys are a HOOT to fly in.
The size spreads the people out , helping my connection.
Ute
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Everything else aside, I think JAB has a good suggestion wrt a slight redesign. It would be worthwhile moving the HQ's behind the fat parts of each slice, and then assigning a slice to each country. Logically that makes a lot more sense. It would certainly give a better sense of an actual front to work, defend, and exapnd.
A big part of the problem with the current layout is that those wanting some sort of historical, strategic tie are invaribialy getting lost within the labrynth that is the country layout. There is no logical flow to it...it just has a random and haphazard feel to the layout. Not a good start for the strat community (great start for the furballers, cause that's what everyone does as a result...or milk run).
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We knew there would be much wailing and gnashing of teeth when we started on the map. We figured that some would hate it and some would like it. We had doubts as to whether the large size would work.
When Hitech posted the first pic of the map here many were quick to judge prematurely. Once you've decided you don't like something and then squeak about it publicly it's hard to be objective after that.
After a few days of play now I have an opinion, probably biased. I like the map. It's not hard for me to find a fight, don't know why some are having trouble. There is a lot of variety in the type of fights to be had. Hard to describe but the fights seem to be more laid back and friendly. I like that, reminds me of the early years of AirWarrior.
Concerning being "thin skinned" Lazs, Hannibal comes to mind, he only ate rude people.
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I love this desert terrain.
the only real complaint about it are the extreem hights, where we have a lot of base at 9-13k and canyons that are a few thousand feet deep.
this it a bit too much and I would like to see it scaled down.
for those who say this isn't a "real" terrain, I can only say that it is as real as p-51s fighting la7s and having a 3 sided war on an island like mindnao.
for those who have a problem with the yello color, I can't say much.
maybe a possibility for such hugh maps in the future is to make each part of the map a different type of terrain. so you'll have a desert portion, a europe-like portion and a tropical portion. I dont know if this is possible though.
Bozon
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Agree with Vortex and JAB except the "Agree with the two above posts 100%" sentence of JAB :D
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>and are now being very thin skinned about any critisism of it.
Are you kidding me?
I think we've been extremely thick skinned about it considering some of the abusive tone of the critism.
Its not about criticism. Hooligan, Jab and others have made calm, rational criticism that are completely valid. I'm sure HTC is waying all the arguments for future requirements changes.
On the other hand, some have decided to express their opinion like complete turds.
There is a difference, though I'm quite sure you're incapable of appreciating it.
Regards,
Wab
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After a few hours with the AKmap Ive decided to stop thinking and just play. Seems to work. FPS has taken a hit. That might be my big complaint.
Wonton, what you doing killing All those M3s. I havent even seen one this tour.
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Originally posted by Dago
This is a discussion board about the game. Where else should players post thier feelings about such a big change in game play??
You think we should accept and play on and not voice our opinions about something that we are not happy about? This isnt a case of looking a gift horse in the mouth, we pay MONEY to play this game and we damn well have a right to an opinion, whether you agree or not.
This is one time I am 100% in agreement with lazs2.
Dago
Sure, I have no problem with someone coming in here and voicing his opinion.
I do have a problem with someone coming in here three times a day doing nothing but squeak, moan and complain though. By now it should be perfectly obvious that some people dont like the map, the strat, the kill messages and the bomber system. Fine, they are entitled to their opinion.
Now they should all really shut the he** up because everyone knows what they feel, and everyone is pretty sick and fu**ing tired of watching them wail and cry and squeak and moan over every single aspect of 1.10.
They do it here on this bb, they do it on channel 1 in the MA, they do it on channel 2 in the ma, and some of them even do it on vox.
These people really need to stfu and play the game. Their complaints have been noted, and if HT decides to change any aspect of 1.10, he will.
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gotta agree with Laz on this one.
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Well... everyone else has commented on the map so I guess I'll try too. I think the pizza shape IS a problem even though it shouldn't matter at all. When you pull up the map, and it's an obvious pizza, it conciously or subconciously detracts from immersion because it looks a tad silly. This is probably the factor that emboldens people to comment on other features they don't like. Is this the AKs fault: absolutely, positively not. Is it HTs fault: not really. It all stems from a very well intentioned constraint put on by HTC: that the map not favor any side and be symmetrical. Well, if you have three sides and have to be totally symmetrical you have only two choices: a triangle or a pizza. If you want rivers inside the periphery then you get the pizza slices. There is no other choice.
The other major complaint heard also is caused by a preconstraint: the the map be large. HTC wants a game that can handle more customers. It's not their fault that those extra customers haven't shown up in less than a week to populate the map.
Another complaint: the colors and textures. Well, I live in a desert not unlike this terrain and I can tell you that this is what it looks like. It may not be pretty (and to tell the truth I hate where I live) but it is realistic.
The one complaint I think is somewhat warranted is the altitude issue and the depth of the canyons. The high altitude does deny significant portions of the map to some people's favorite planes. That is a valid issue which I believe is being addressed. The canyons are a trade off. The designers undoubtedly wanted to provide the fun of canyon fights. The trouble is the performance of WWII aircraft make most realistic canyons just minor creases in the terrain. Only the Grand Canyon becomes something that actually becomes visible and a navigational constraint. That's one of the most annoying things about RL flight: at legal altitudes everything looks flat as a pancake and boring. There is no doubt that the canyons would fail a geological reality test (unless they are made of solid granite) but if they were more realistic they would be less fun.
What's the solution: I think it is to give up the hope for completely even land distribution, design a more realistic terrain, and the deal with the inevitable "knights/bishops/rooks are at a disadvantage" complaints.
AKs: please don't be demoralized or annoyed by the comments. The problems stem entirely from the constraints you had to work under. Notice that there are few (or no) complaints of bugs, sink holes, unmatching textures, and other terrain bugaboos. It is very fine work and the work is appreciated probably by almost everyone. You should not swear off terrain design forever because of the response. You should talk to HT and convince him a totally symmetrical map won't work and then start work on a new map closer to the design you would want as the second map in the MA rotation. (But first you should get HT to give you guys free accounts in payment ;)
Salute, 715
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Oddly enough, while building it, we came up with several nicknames for the map, but pizza never occurred to us.
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>It all stems from a very well intentioned constraint put on by
>HTC: that the map not favor any side and be symmetrical.
Just to clairfy a bit.
It was HTC's constraint that the map be balanced and not favor any side due to geography.
They did NOT dictate that the terrain be symetrical. The symetry was our attempt to gauruntee balance. It was just one possible solution to the constraint. Possibly not the best one.
Regards,
Wab
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Ak's made a map and are now being very thin skinned about any critisism of it.
I beg to differ, but then again I've only read all of the threads STARTED by other people simply to degradate our map or HTC over using this map. 2 1/2 years, there's still people (and you are included in this lazs) who will come here and produce some of the most asinine complaints that it makes me wonder if they've ever had to deal with dissappointment in their lives without crying on someone's shoulder.
first off... they act like the entire community begged em to spend countless hours on a map and then.... after they had done all this labor for free... we pounded them with venemous, ungrateful vitroholic whines.
True, no one asked us to. We did it though to prove that user made maps can and will be used in the MA. However, it is also true that a lot of posts here regarding the map are "venemous, ungrateful vitroholic whines".
I would simply like to mention that I never asked em to do anything. I would have been just as happy (or unhappy) if they didn't bother and we had the new release with the old maps... I would also like to point out that..... by a large margin.... the worst venom and vitriol.... comes from the defenders of the map... not the detractors.
lazs
So basically Lazs, what you are saying is you would prefer the game to remain in a stagnant state so you can enjoy the quakeball warpfests of the old map as opposed to the new quakeballs that don't have nearly as much warping?
And you would prefer it that HTC not test new ideas that could potentially bring in more players, so when those new players DO come in and the new idea is finally tested... it turns out it doesn't work and AH becomes WWIIOl, and virtually everyone leaves.
Whether you can see it or not, this map was designed for far more players than the MA can currently handle... but we have to test it first...
-SW
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well..... you could level out the alts some... rip out about 4 or 5 sectors of filds and leave the space barren and then at the isolated part..... Make that an "early war plane only area". Now that would be worthwhile.
Now SW... name ONE assinne complaint I have ever made. Not saying I haven't but I simply don't recall one and I bet you don't either.
I didn't say that I prefered the game to stay stagnant. No way could you believe that if you have ever read anything I posted. I ask for nothing but change... but.... crappy change is not worth doing. why bother making a change that is worse?
If this map is for WHEN we get the magical 1,000 players or WHEN we get seperate "areas" for early war planes then fine.... lets retire it and bust it back out if and when these things occur. right now it is mereley lowering the player base and making for an even more "late plane only" centric arena.
Think about it.... we have here (arguably) the most anticipated release ever... The new feartures are pretty much liked but... we have les players on than before the release... What exactly would you attribute that too?
So ak's.... you either wasted your time on a big turkey or.... you did a fine job and are just way ahead of your time.... either way... let's go back to the old maps now that you've had your fun.
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
Think about it.... we have here (arguably) the most anticipated release ever... The new feartures are pretty much liked but... we have les players on than before the release... What exactly would you attribute that too?
I would expect fewer players over the 4th weekend however there were over 450 in the MA until very late last night. Doesn't sound like a numbers problem to me. Where are you getting your numbers Lazs?
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are you saying that we didn't ever have 450 players before the new release? come on... face it... this thing should be jammed full.
lazs
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Seems to have about the usual numbers to me. Thought you were saying the numbers had fallen, guess I misunderstood.
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I believe that overall we do have probly somewhat less on than before but.... worse.... we should have way more. The anticipated increase has not happened. Certainly, even you can see that we should have had a huge INCREASE and that anything less than an increase is not good.
but ok.... I admit it. Your map hasn't completely destroyed the player base yet.
lazs
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Just so we're clear, no longer is it my map, or the AK's. As I'm sure you know, Hitech can pull it any time he wants.
He is much smarter than me by not getting involved in this bickering.
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Seems to have about the usual numbers to me.
Yup and thats Lazs' point.
After a new release, numbers should be UP by 20%-40% for the first couple of weeks. And then fall off to the "normal" levels.
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Numbers should be UP by 40 % after a new release!? Holy moses thats absurd! Thats saying as of right now we should have (at a max) 675 players. Never ever have I seen an increase of that magnitude in such a short time span. Hell I doubt I've seen a 20% increase immediately after a release.
I've stayed out of all this for the most part despite being, at least in the beginning, one of the major contributors. AKWabbit I suspect poured in more hours than I can possibly imagine. I personally know Curly poured in a boatload, and Iron did as well. I finally landed a job just at the beginning of its creation.
However, I can honestly say this map is a HUGE success. There truly is something for everyone. Ground battles without plane interference for those who feel like that. Canyon fights (by air or ground), furballs (yes, they still exist just not on the same level), bombing - you name it its there. But most of all strategy. Strategy never has been a significant part of any previous map, and now it is.
Granted, I think Hoolie's concerns are very valid concerns, as do most of the AK's. HTC is working on it - and I am sure he will have a solution.
In any event, just my thoughts :)
S!
Nim