Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Duedel on July 07, 2002, 12:56:37 PM
-
After reading so much emotional posts about OUR new map i wanted to start a discussion how to evolve this map.
Here are a few contras:
1. Map is to big
2. Field alts way to high
3. Spreading of countries supports milkrunning and supresses furballing
4. Desert terrain is to yellow (i need green!)
Pros:
1. Map has action for everyone
2. Great vehicle fights
3. Slick canyons
4. Cool high alt fights
My points:
Contras:
1. yep its a little bit to big for our community. 180 Fields would be enough (or a size of 400x400)
2. yep but i think the AK's mentioned that they'll change it
3. JAB has post a good idea about it. Why not have every slize of the pizza owned by one country. So we have clear frontlines. i think this could be done very easy?
4. I fine with it
Pros:
i dont think that the pros will be changed by changing the 3 contras
Any none emotional posts here?
-
Good thread Duedel. Just to clarify one thing though, while AKWabbit has written a program to rescale the terrain elevation and given it to Hitech, the terrain is solely in the hands of HTC.
While AKNuttz is working on a terrain for the MA, the rest of us are out of the terrain making business, much to the relief of many here I'm sure. :p
-
I like the overall terrain enough to WANT to see it work. Right now it's just too spread out IMO. If it could be re-designed so the starting countries each own a single whole "slice" instead of 1/3 of each of the "slices", I think the terrain would be a lot more workable. I think doing it like this would also make the "zone" strat system more logical--a country would have to actively resupply its bases as it advanced on the enemy, but wouldn't have to while on the defensive. In addition, 2/3 of a country's starting bases would no longer be "alienated" from its main "zone". As an added bonus, the terrain itself would also mean the attacking country would be advancing uphill (literally), giving another benefit to the defender.
The major problem right now is there's too many "active" bases for the current player base ("active" meaning bases within striking distance of enemy bases), which results in spreading the action too thin. This map would work really well in its current form with 750 players IMO. Not a bad design; it's just a design ahead of its time.
It'd also be nice to see each "slice" get a unique look--maybe 1 slice as desert, one as jungle, and one as grassland--but I'm not sure that AH's terrain system can do that all in one map, at least not with playable framerates. It's been so long sine I did anything with the terrain editor I'm no longer sure exactly what it can do and what it can't.
J_A_B
-
Great ideas JAB
-
I've only had two days with the new map, but so far I don't have a single complaint.
The map isn't too big, the bases are still the same distance it seems and the map was reset in just a few days. I thought it really bad where maps were reset 2-3 times per day as before.
I especially love the variety of field altitudes and have noticed a decrease in the amount of LA7 useage (which could never be a bad thing to me.)
I don't see "milkrunning" as being a threat due to the sheer number of bases and as long as the opportunity is fair and even across-the-board, no biggie.
The desert terrain looks good to me. It reminded me of the dogfight ranges in Nevada.
I think this map is just fine as it is. With the addition of maps to the set, I'm sure they'll all have their elements that differ and provide a good variety overall. Some will favor this map, some will favor that one...etc.
I'd like to see one that has a portion of the map that requires "island hopping" and thus naval operations.
-
it might work better if each country started with one pie slice, but as things progressed the lines sorted themselves out, last night knights ended up with most of the west , rooks the east .
that sure is a lot of desert, looks like north africa, what about the southwest slice desert, south east green, and north slice snow.
i don't understand people saying they can't find a fight, last night there were big furballs, jabo attacks, bombruns , armour battles in the desert, fog of war, from my small POV in the fight it seemed to have co-ordinated attacks and defense, what else do you want from a sim?
yes the pizza map is unrealistic and ugly , but when you zoom into your little piece of the world you never notice it.
44MAG
-
Let me start by saying I'm a fan of this map. Thanks AK's. This map was designed to be one in a rotation of a number of maps. It will be appreciated more when other maps are released.
I like the idea of each continent having a different landscape. That would be really cool. But I would not want to see each country own one of the continents for itself. It's great the way it is because it gives a lot of fronts to fight on.
I have one idea that I have not seen mentioned yet. What about keeping the concentration of fields the same at each front but thining them out as you go deeper into each territory. This would decrease the number of bases and confusion somewhat and keep the fights concentrated at the fronts. People will follow the path of least resistance and switch to other bases along the front instead of flying farther for a fight. One of the downsides would be that it would make it longer to reset. I'm sure there are other downsides and that people will point them out for me in a nice gentle way ;)
-
>I like the idea of each continent having a different landscape.
So do I, but you have 5 textures to work with. That doesn't give you a lot to work with. Its hard (but not impossible) to do more than one climate zone in a single map.
Regards,
Wab
-
AK's are too darn ornery to have much of a life anyway...so get to work ;) I know absolutely nothing about making the maps so I'm just dreaming with no sense of reality on the climate thing.
What do you think about thining out the bases as you get deeper into each country's zone? Do you think it would eliminate some of the confusion and clutter as well as concentrate the fights a little more?
-
Just something to add to the discussion..
I think this is a shared view with many, as the boards can attest.
The problem from my view is the map itself. ( size is factor also but I guess we're stuck with it :( )
It has no resemblance to an "on earth" map. In effect you are sacrificing any relation to the "real" world in favor of "equal" gameplay. Gameplay in this sense defined as "winning" the map.
I don't know the numbers but those that "play" the base capturing thing may not be majority here. ( correct me if I'm wrong )
From my point of view ( how I play ) I want to log on to a map that "looks" like a part of the world with all it's advantages and disadvantages. With trees, green folage, canyons, sea shores and lakes. Some of the maps here are beautiful. It doesn't have to "be" real. Just LOOK real.
Take up a WWII aircraft and engage the enemy in a "realistic" envirement. Like planes vs. like planes. It doesn't work allied vs. axis as WB has proven. Winning the map doesn't interest me. Never has.
"If" I was interested in winning the map, it would be a "real" map with inherrent pros and cons and I would deal with it. If a country wins the map, they get the chitty position on the next one.
Politically correct can only go so far. When it gets to the point where a pizza now represents the world I play in, I have a problem.
Please understand. It's a problem, not a whine. For some reason legitimate problems are precieved as whines by the status quo.
So if you can make it work with adjustments, fine.
But your going to lose people.
WB is very good at it.
That's not what THIS game is about.
And now is not the time to start.
nopoop
-
>Politically correct can only go so far.
Don't be silly poop. political correctness has nothing to do with the shape of this map.
Is this map, other than size, fundementally different that Lake Uterus, NDIsles, and the beta map (which is being reffitted now)?
I understand that you don't care about strategy and game play. But I'm sure you can understand that others may be. In a rotation of maps, there will be some that are less historical and more balanced for gameplay, some that are more historical with less balance in gameplay. They will rotate and everyone will sometimes enjoy the current map and sometimes have to deal with it until the next map rotates. It would be childish for either group to demand that the other group totally play their way. There is room for both in a map rotation. IMHO.
Regards,
Wab
-
Size isn't a problem; the current starting fields is. By going with the "one slice -- one country" starting field system, you effectively make the map smaller.
Elevations are already being worked on.
HTC really has to work on the engine to get more htan 5 textures :)
-
Wab if indeed there is going to be a rotation, I can hang with that :) Good job BTW, musta been fun. Until released :eek: :D
But I really don't see the need for it to be "equal". Equal in itself is boring. It IS politically correct. I think too much is sacrificed to achieve "equal" in the game sense.
All those new P40 and F4F pilots out there and old zeke and C205 pilots could give a damm about being "equal"
Being the underdog is fun, and has it's advantages.
And it's never boring.
Why doesn't that transpose to map creation ??
THAT'S what I don't understand.
nopoop
-
Because everyone squeaked that the old maps weren't equal Poop, now there is one that is equal for all sides.... it ain't PC, it's a direct result of squeaking.
-SW
-
>Size isn't a problem
Maybe, maybe not. Last night when we had 450 player in it, it seemed ok. It prolly seems pretty big to the 4am Euro crowd.
I still can't decide for myself either way.
>By going with the "one slice -- one country" starting field >system, you effectively make the map smaller.
Yes, that would definitely reduce the surface area of each country. If it worked, the nice thing about it is that HTC can reconfigure the zone distrobution for a map to support different player loads without having to make an entire new map.
>HTC really has to work on the engine to get more htan 5
>textures
Well, of course they can have as many as they want. But it raises the mem req on the vid cards. It has a lot to do with the way the transition tiles work. The mem req expands exponentially as a function of the number of base tiles.
Regards,
Wab
-
>But I really don't see the need for it to be "equal".
I got that the first time. :)
But you do understand that there is a certain precentage of the players who disagree right?
A certain percentage of player prefer to start the war with all countries on even footing. Different tastes. Thats why HTC provides map rotations. Different maps, with different looks, different focus, different balance. Variety.
Regards,
Wab
-
don't know why all this fuss about a map in the MA, the MA is just training for the real thing, .......scenarios
44MAG
-
Because everyone squeaked that the old maps weren't equal
Wasn't around for that one SW, I was in the middle of gun lethality somewhere else :D
WB had a rotation thing for position after a reset in the old days..
They were only using one map for the tour though.
nopoop
-
just make each slice a seperate time frame
n slice early
se mid
sw late :)
No seriously I agree with nopoop.
By looking at the terrain you can see where the map designers took some of the criticism of the smaller maps plus the desire by some (me included) to enjoy some of the previous maps. (canyons, high alt fields). They solved the problem of the small fronts that plagued say the mindinao map.
I never look at the map as a whole any way. I am usually zoomed in. So pizza, peace sign, Yggdrasil, the shape makes no different to me.
However their are so many fronts that its hard to find the type of fights I enjoy. I like the fights on the island map between a4 a5, a48 a24, a27 a8. A few times on this new map I found that. But they didnt last long until some jabo dweebs (i am kidding here) killed the fhs(replace fluffer with flabo?) . This sent the roaches scurrying to the 4 corners. :)
Then it got boring. I like the map where a1 was in the middle and there were relatively long fronts for all countries.
The brown is tiresome to look at. But thats just me. The alts are just to high imho as well. But I could live with this as long as their was sustainable action and fights.
A small map with large fronts or ar a large map with large fronts but not more the 3. :)
or we could push for the suggestion I made at the top of this reply.
-
Originally posted by Wotan
The brown is tiresome to look at. But thats just me.
Gotta keep in mind who made the textures, AKWabbit. Remember, he's from Fort Worth, Texas. That's what he thinks the world looks like. :D
-
Actually the brown is one of the things I like....every map AH has ever had except NDISLES has been predominantly green--and even NDISLES has a lot of green mixed in with the blue of the water. Well, I suppose the BETA map had those 20K snow-covered mountains but that was a loooong time ago and not many people flew that high anyway.
Even if the brown is ugly, it's nice flying over something different now and then. Once AKDESERT (hopefully with a one country--one slice re-design) is in a rotation, I suspect people will begin to like having a change of scenery.
J_A_B
-
It's difficult to be objective about a design issue, when appreciation of design (or Art for that matter) is a subjective and emotional issue.
I am always stunned by the dedication of the player base in the MMOGs I have participated in. SAC in AW was an amazing undertaking, and the AKs musta really busted some humps to get the map done.
I think the concepts in this map are really clever, such as the 3 slices being divided up to complicate the "front line", and the outer ring is interesting. The size of the map is impressive, and I managed to pull off a solo base capture from a combined Cruiser/CV action, which was fun. The colour scheme makes it hard to see GVs (a good thing IMO) and it is fun to strafe them in a Yak 9T or Hurri IID while dodging huge boulders.
However I have to say that my subjective feeling is not entirely positive. I prefer the Historical type maps, and Mindanao is my favourite. NDIsles gave a feeling of Pacific Island hopping, so even that was fun even if not "real" geography.
to the AKs for the hard work.
palef
-
Thanks palef.
Before starting work with the editor we discussed the issues involved in creating a realistic or at least non-symetrical terrain. The issue of unfairness, real or perceived, in anything but a symetrical layout outweighed all the arguments we tossed around. I'm not saying it can't be done, just not by us at that time.
I'm hoping someone else can do it, at least it might take some of the heat off us. :D
BTW, this whole thing is Wabb's fault. ;)
-
It prolly seems pretty big to the 4am Euro crowd
It is 4am where i am now (UK) There are 450 people in the MA and I am going to bed (I am knackered :D ) as the bish looks reasonably close to a possible reset. 9am-midday euro time are the problem with less than 100 people on the map, can get awful lonely.
But...
If ya look hard enough and you have a few other guys to work with it can still be great fun as long as you work together. I've found many 3-8v3-8 fights at stupid o'clock EST, it take a bit of effort but is not impossible.
Constructive (I hope) comments on the map...
Yes I would like to see each coutry start with 1 slice for the reasons metioned above.
The brown desert camo texture doesn't bother me too much, but it would be fun to have snow on some of the higher elevations and jungle on the coastline... Anyway I just started flying the C.205 and it seems to blend in pretty well with the desert camo :D
I would like to see a larger area of water for the CV's in future maps, I know the small water area was a requirement for the pizza map so no blame on the AK's, it might even be a good thing... It will stop us getting bored when/if maps come along with large expanses of water
If I am to be very critical I am not a 100% fan of the regular geometrical shape that the pizza map gives us, initial fronts have no gaps that can be exploited to dive deep into enemy territory, a 'wobblier' (sorry, beer talking) front would give areas where the capture of a couple of bases could make a significant difference. These fields would obviously be highly attractive targets but would also be defended, I have the impression that directly after a reset (and we've had quite a few with all the server crashes) no one is really interested in defence, the emphasis is straight the way on grabbing the maximum number of bases before the opFor wakes up.
I would be quite happy to have this map in tweeked form if it is complimented by a couple of other maps which have different criteria for their design, much as Mindinao was the hilly non-gv map whereas SFMA was the flat super fast reset GV-a-thon and NDisles was the CV map.
Like the pizza map, AK's deserve all due credit for sticking their necks out and doing something constructive.
Gatso
-
I see the map bases appear to have been reset to a "one country/one slice" setup.
And tonight I was a happy camper :)
J_A_B
-
It's unbelievible, I'm totally impressed! So many posts and all are constructive interesting and mature.
guys, go on!
-
My first impression of this map was "oh my god, what the heck happened ?" I really thought it was a huge mistake.
However, a few days on and I really like it, if you want to furball, you can, noe a field, easy. Dodge radar and grab alt, it can be done. Play tank commander in ravines, my favourite. (frenchy, where the heck were you hiding ?).
If you forget the pizza shape (I am trying to) it is a superb terrain, fields at 5 k ?? why not ?? Anything that keeps the LA7 jocks down is a good thing in my book. The alts allow different a/c to play in their own domain. Keep it.
In my opinion it only lacks one thing, a decent size ocean to hide a CV in.
To the AK's, don't take any criticism personally, its not intended for you, some just don't like change. I am enjoying it.
Thanks
wipass
-
Originally posted by J_A_B
I see the map bases appear to have been reset to a "one country/one slice" setup.
And tonight I was a happy camper :)
J_A_B
Were the bases reset that way, or was it the result of the fighting/base captures splitting the terrain like that? I know when I logged off this evening things were roughly split to a country per slice. That came as a result of base captures though, not a reset.
-
Originally posted by wipass
If you forget the pizza shape (I am trying to) it is a superb terrain, fields at 5 k ?? why not ?? Anything that keeps the LA7 jocks down is a good thing in my book. The alts allow different a/c to play in their own domain. Keep it.
This is one piece of the puzzle I fear is going to change for the worse. The alts of the bases is, imo, one of the best things about this map. Alas the whines by the "My low-alt plane isn't uber here!" crowd has been deafening. Its a shame really as EVERY other map in this game fits the 0-15k pilots perfectly. Get one map that changes that slightly (there's not THAT many high alt bases, most are 5k and below) and folks think the world is coming to an end.
The big downside is that it sounds like HTC didn't raise a hand to these folks and just tell them to wait and let things play out. My understanding is they capitulated already and base alts will be modified. A real shame.
-
GVs play too big of part on this map, its Aces Flak now. Osties already have a 1 ping= kill advantage. My Il-2 dont work to well at all up the stratosphere. Spawnpoints are too close to towns and hangers at start. My squadmates and I got a base yesterday where we hardly had to move our panzers, we were in range. This morning at v59 a flak was murdering our newbies so I went in my A20 to clear it out he was about 2 K S of vh, I drop 2 eggs and miss, 2 more he is dead. Before I even complete my pullout he is back 2k out again. Spawnpoints are too close! I wanna fight planes mostly. When I wanna fight tanks and kill em I dont want the little roaches popping back up in the same place. Osties should be perked IMO for spawnpoints. On another subject the terrain is too bright or something, as well as some spots looking like various flavors of ice cream or rather nasty it looks like mold. Which btw is porked mold cant grow on Mars, make the terrain color tinted red more, so it looks like those mars crawler pictures.
-
Completely agree on 1 country has 1 slice o' Pizza to start with. The mixed terrain occupation means too many fronts to defend/attack on, making milkrunning rampant. With only 2 fronts per country, more realistic, warlike fighting is likely to evolve.
Also, the map seems to big for the given number of players - I propose leaving the big pizza as is and making a smaller one to play on while we don't have 1000+ players online.
As for the field alts, I dunno... there's many 10k+ bases in the mainlands of the slices, where low-alt planes fare poorly, but the mix of bases 3 to 7kish near the coasts is really nice. Maybe the overall height of the mainlands should be reduced by, say 2.5k.
Vehicle Spawns are definitely too close to bases. Granted, this makes for intense vehicle fights, but what use is killing an attacker when he pops up just a mile back immediately ?´
The canyons however are GREAT, I like the fights down there.
The desert texturing is nice for a change, but it does get dull at times... mebbe break it up with some oasis in between, little lakes with vegetation around...
-
"I know when I logged off this evening things were roughly split to a country per slice. That came as a result of base captures though, not a reset."
Chances are by some accident that's just how they got captured; regardless of why it ended up like that it made for better gameplay.
J_A_B
-
To continue the discussion ;)
sigh.......... it's just too damm big.
I'm not concerned at this point on the shape, or the desert terrain. I figure if we pool our money we can hire out some bomber types in the new 3 plane box and do flyovers dropping seeds....Then hire a ...ah... rain priest to bring rain :D
Now if were "stuck" with size, a slice format would shorten the front lines and concentrate the fight. For those "inclined"
To be honest, logged on during the day ( westcoast ) and there was maybe 160 up flyin. It was so spread out it was empty.
What is even worse, I logged on to WB with 33 in the main and had more fights then I could shake a stick at.
It's been 2 months since I've been there and I have NEVER had a reason to drop in.
:confused:
Imagine that, going to WB to find a fight........... :eek:
Not good, not good at all.
-
I do not understand how anyone cannot find a fight - they certainly are out there. All the time someone will cry "waaa waaa! the maps too big, I can't find a fight" I say "Hold on a sec" go to the map and in 15 seconds (average) "Ok go to field XXX" they go and say "Thanks man!"
Learn how to use your map - or don't be too lazy to use it. If at anytime anyone can't find a fight online I will happily direct you to one anytime I am online.
As for the map being to big - It has been reset twice in as many days.
To use the map: Insert and Delete keys (the ones sitting next to each other just below the preint Screen key on a standard keyboard) zoom the map in and out. Then hold down left mouse button and drag the map around as you wish (it seems you no longer need press "shift" first either. Simply look for the large red bars - and there ALWAYS are large red bars.
------------
edit to include this:
Maybe this little trick will make the radar bars easier for you to find:
(BTW Note - It takes a few seconds for the radar bars to load - depending on your connection speed. You will see in the middle of the map the "radar loading" process - you have to wait for this to complete upon first arriving )
When you pull up the clipboard at the top of the map are alot of "buttons" Click all of them off. All that will be left are the radar bars and individual target tracks (when available)
--------------
Take note of a green field # near the largest of the red bars you see - type .move # (where #=the field number you want to go to) press enter and enjoy.
I hope this is instructive. If you need help and I am online I will try my best to point you in the right direction as time permits.
-
Because everyone squeaked that the old maps weren't equal Poop, now there is one that is equal for all sides.... it ain't PC, it's a direct result of squeaking.
This is a classic flaw Wabbit and one I hope won't be repeated.
Listening to the vocal minority that expresses their gripes ad nauseum on this forum is a classic mistake that I observed Fighter Ace 2.5 and other sims make. For some reason, greater credence is given to the suggestions espoused on a forum than by soliciting feedback from regular players. It's like the more someone repeats a thing here, the more likely it will be believed.
The problem with listening to the most vocal among the community is that they don't necessarily speak for the masses. Like political action committees and special interest groups, they all have their own agenda and want to see aspects of the game they favor improved. Sometimes their zeal to get their favored changes overshadow and undermine features that other players value as strongly. I don't think they necessarily intend this effect, it just seems to happen that way on occasion.
Rather than surrender Barabas to the squeaky wheels, why not give the common folk who play this game but lack the time to post regularly a voice in matters of this magnitude? One subscriber = one vote.
The 'common' players might surprise you with their insight and thoughtfullness....and the game will be the better for it. Any manager worth his salt will tell you, when the ideas of those who will be affected by a given change are incorporated into those changes, their likelihood of accepting the changes grows dramatically.
Just a thought...any people managers out there? ;)
- Dave
-
Originally posted by StracCop
Listening to the vocal minority that expresses their gripes ad nauseum on this forum is a classic mistake that I observed Fighter Ace 2.5 and other sims make. For some reason, greater credence is given to the suggestions espoused on a forum than by soliciting feedback from regular players.
StracCop, I agree with your statement in principle. However, you should be aware that HTC does listen to it's customer base not only here on the ubb but also through other avenues. I'm pretty sure they weigh not only the whining but the reasonable requests as well.
While it might be possible to create a balanced historical map, probably not without much trial and error. The 'sky is falling' syndrome around here kinda puts off experimentation IMHO.
-
Anybody every consider taking the African continent and converting it to an Aces High terrain? Its got 4 distinct topographies (mountains, deserts, jungles, steppes), a shape that could be divided into 3 pieces equally, a major lake (Victoria) and with some artistic license you could make more lakes and very wide rivers and bays along the coastlines for carrier attacks. And for kicks you could toss in Madagascar as a furball island.
I've attached a quick interpretation as a reference. The red line would be the default boundaries for bases. And, of course, it might be necessary to add waterways along the boundaries so that attack carriers could get into the fray.
-
They could call the southern section, "ResetLand".
-
Originally posted by popeye
They could call the southern section, "ResetLand".
Based on what I vowed in the 80's, I wont play in SunCity :p :D :eek:
-
Originally posted by popeye
They could call the southern section, "ResetLand".
Yeah, Chad would be a hotbed of combat. Might have to re-work base distribution and put a waterway in there somewhere. Maybe adjust the desert terrain to extend deeper into the central interior and give the east and western slices a bigger border.
But, its a start.
-
My second attempt. Not sure what to do about water access...
-
Africa ... desert ... ohoh :D