Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: lazs on July 11, 2000, 12:51:00 PM
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WB tried a new arena based on sick's "generations" idea. In short, this is an arena that is axis vs allied that divides the 50 some odd planes of WB into 4 groups or "generations" where intro date is not so important as is parity of performance. More planes are available than normal also, adding variety.
Last night started with early war (109E's, zekes, p40b's, F4F3's spit and Hurri ones etc.) and will run for five days before the next "generation". The arena was quite crowded and the normal Main arena was deserted even though it was running an early war setting also. Time will tell but it may replace the old "MA".
lazs
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Hey, Air Warrior thought of that idea 11 years ago! Hehe.
Seriously, I hope it's effective for them.
On that note, we are still patiently waiting for our historical arena! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Ripsnort(-rip1-)
VMF-323 Death Rattlers
Panzer Group Afrika~15th Panzer Division~[/i]
Click here for VMF-323 Death Rattlers info (http://Ripsnort60.tripod.com/vmf323inquirer.html)
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(http://Ripsnort60.tripod.com/rattlesnakeani.gif)
I spare no class or cult or creed,
My course is endless through the year.
I bow all heads and break all hearts,
All owe homage-I am Fear.
-------------General Patton
[This message has been edited by Ripsnort (edited 07-11-2000).]
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as i remember it the old Dos AW was 3 countries and ETO and PTO were separate.
lazs
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Rgr, thats what I mean, they doing the ETO, PTO thing, right?
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yes and no... the arena has all eto and pto planes enabled (for that generation) but they are at different fields. Even with slow early war planes tho a jap carrier got in the ETO and there were zekes to shoot down as well as the 109's. Also F4F-3's were in the ETO fight. has to do with field capture and not quite sure i understand all the details just yet.
lazs
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Ahh. Exactly like AW. 11 years ago.
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Actually, no (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) The ETO and PTO are both operational together in the same arena at the same time--don't think AW ever had that (certainly not in the DOS days).
The aircraft are "stationed" at bases so that Japanese planes are separated geographically from German ones. In practice, this produced MOSTLY fights of IJ vs US and RAF vs LW, although as lazs notes, the IJ carrier steamed into the "Euro zone" and the IJ could fight against the RAF (but NOT against the LW, who are the same color as the IJ).
Probably more like DOA than AW. Aces High's map would probably be an even better fit, since the fields seem to be farther apart, making it unlikely that you'd find Japanese planes and Germans in the same vicinity.
Sort of midway between the MAyhem arena and a scenario lite...
--jedi
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Air Warrior 3 has run a two-sided Axis v. Allies arena for at least a couple of years now. It's ETO only, but the map is historical... you can visit London or Paris if you so desire. The problem, of course, is that flying times can be a real pain in the butt despite to-scale reduced ranges.
-- Todd/DMF
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Hi lazs...
I tried it for about three hours tonight and really liked it. I flew a P40B and had some great historical duels against the Zeke A6M2 and Ki43. When I logged off at 11:30pm, there were still 124 people in that arena on a pay for play basis.
I think iEN has something worth marketing there, so I sure hope they move their primary people barriers to accomplishing that out of the way.
BTW...a different subject. You are indeed correct about the turn rate "thingy". I really noticed a difference in the responsiveness to aileron input and how quickly the nose came around. Many more enjoyable T&B scraps. In all honesty, from a playability and fun factor point of view, I have concluded I do prefer the WB formula (turn rate ONLY), whatever it is, even if the AH flight model is truer from a realistic physics implementaion. I do however, prefer many of the other elements of the AH environment, including the graphics. Sure wish these two companies would glue together the best of both worlds for pure entertainment value at a flat rate.
Regards,
Badger
Looking for a different kind of environment to discuss your favorite on-line flight simulator?
http://www.egroups.com/group/flightsimsonline (http://www.egroups.com/group/flightsimsonline)
(now over 70 members and counting)
[This message has been edited by Badger (edited 07-11-2000).]
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As far as i'm concerned, i prefer the AH FM, I have less the feeling of playing a video game and it makes me closer feel of my real life flying. A plane stuck in the sky at slow speed in your gunsight is what I prefer. It implies more strategy not to end up 'frozen in the sky' when someone is in ur 6.
But that's a personal statement, I respect other people point of view. I think we are lucky to be able to play either one of the flight sim WB/AH depending on how you like your fun. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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WB's new WWII arena is interesting try. I've not been flying WB already, but I agree it's a very charming.
For example... F4U-1D was designed to fight A6M or Japanese aircraft, not fight P51, B17 or F4U-1D self. F4U-1C has heavy ammo 20mm cannon, but it was produced 200 only. .50cal has enough power to kill Japanese aircrafts, so F4U-1D is produced more lots numbers than F4U-1C. It's ignored at the main arena.
I wish AH has WWII arena also. For its purpose, more aircraft are necessary. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Batmann <CO/JG68> from Tokyo, Japan
JG68 Briefing Room (http://www.ceres.dti.ne.jp/~batman/jg68/)
"Anybody who is Japanese and likes German aircrafts
can't but get to like Ki-61."
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Originally posted by SFRT - Frenchy:
As far as i'm concerned, i prefer the AH FM, I have less the feeling of playing a video game and it makes me closer feel of my real life flying. A plane stuck in the sky at slow speed in your gunsight is what I prefer. It implies more strategy not to end up 'frozen in the sky' when someone is in ur 6.
Exactly the thing I like in AH. No more taking WB Spit IX and pulling on the stick until enemy is in your sights. Here even the Spitter loses E and freezes in the sky (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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I remember back when I played WB, the HA had this very setup for a few days, using a map that roughly followed the European/Mediterranean continent. I think it was Hatch that put it together. There was the US/UK in the West, followed by the Germans in the center, ending with the Soviets in the East. It was a real hit with many people attending.
I would love to see something like this here, except add the Asian side. Of course, it would require a fuller plane set, but I don't see a problem with that in a year (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Must be impressive stuff to see a heavy plane at 150-200kts to 'freeze in the sky' (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Originally posted by Hristo:
Exactly the thing I like in AH. No more taking WB Spit IX and pulling on the stick until enemy is in your sights. Here even the Spitter loses E and freezes in the sky (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Hi Hristo....
With all due respect, I think there's something out of whack a little bit, only as it pertains to turn rate. I didn't agree at first, but after flying the AH Zeke here a lot and discovering that the Spit 9 can almost stay even in a tight "flat turn" fight for an incredible amount of time, then there has to be something not happening right in mudsville.
Allowing for my mediocrity as a Zeke pilot, I've had example after example of relatively new guys who would just play "circle jerk" with me in a Spit 9, far longer (turn rotations) than would happen in WB with the same planes. My point earlier was that the AH turn rate formula may indeed be 100% correct, but I would prefer HT to "fudge" the math a little to cause the disparities between turn rates on planes to be more pronounced and noticeable sooner, than an absolute "bottom end" E bleed necessity which seems to happen now.
Anyway, just my thoughts are from a playability and game point of view and not from a true realism of flight sim physics position.
Regards,
Badger
Looking for a different kind of environment to discuss your favorite on-line flight simulator?
http://www.egroups.com/group/flightsimsonline (http://www.egroups.com/group/flightsimsonline)
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I've been playing both sims equally for the last month or so, but with the new WW2 Arena, I know where I will spend most of my time.
Daff
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CO, 56th Fighter Group
"This is Yardstick. Follow me"
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Oh, one more thing Lazs, we have an OFF_TOPIC BB for this, this BB is for "Aces High General Discussion" . Thanks ! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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well i can see his point rip ,we seem to mostly want this sort of setup and who the hell reads the off topic bbs any way. hope we get alot of early war planes myself.
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Bet you dollars to donuts that the Terrain editor will change the way we look at arenas....
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Ripsnort(-rip1-)
VMF-323 ~Death Rattlers~
Panzer Group Afrika~15th Panzer Division~[/i]
Click here for VMF-323 Death Rattlers info (http://Ripsnort60.tripod.com/vmf323inquirer.html)
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(http://ripsnort60.tripod.com/ripsnort323.gif)
I spare no class or cult or creed,
My course is endless through the year.
I bow all heads and break all hearts,
All owe homage-I am Fear.
-------------General Patton
[This message has been edited by Ripsnort (edited 07-12-2000).]
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I tried to play last night and got discoed three times in a row after about 5 minutes of flying. Anyone else have problems with WB last night? Very frustrating...
No problems with AH, though.
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RUST
(http://home.earthlink.net/~rocketace/_uimages/rustsbucketp38small.jpg)
[This message has been edited by rust (edited 07-12-2000).]
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Ooops, test post
[This message has been edited by Antix (edited 07-12-2000).]
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What? Somebody say Brand W has connex probs??
Never heard of sucha thing.
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Hang
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Originally posted by Badger:
I've had example after example of relatively new guys who would just play "circle jerk" with me in a Spit 9, far longer (turn rotations) than would happen in WB with the same planes.
I think I know what you mean. It just seems to me that E is far more important here than in WB. Your Zeke might outturn a Spit 9, but if he starts the stallfight from favorable position or E state, it might just not be enough. You can't expect WB magic E device to pull you out of any situation, like it was the case with WB Spits.
I have seen WB Spits doing endless turns and loops, never losing E to that critical point where they could be outturned by 190, for example.
Here even Zeke can lose E way below corner speed and find itself outturned by a P 47 (which is a damn bloody E keeper (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)).
WB Zeke always reminded me to X-wing games. When in doubt, pull on the stick. Here it might not always be the wisest move.
Even Fw 190A-5 with little alt can turn inside Spit V, for example, if the Spitter is too slow (it can turn inside one if the Spitter is too fast too (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)).
Turn radius is close, 190 dives slightly, is closer to corner speed and thus wins the angles. Like it should. This seems just as it should be.
AH FM requires more careful flying than WB FM. IMO, this flight modeling favors the BnZ planes and gangbanging (like it should), allows less furballs and 1 man armies (like it should). Otherwise nobody would bother to build P 51s or 190s, WW2 would have Fieseler Storchs furballing around.
My point earlier was that the AH turn rate formula may indeed be 100% correct, but I would prefer HT to "fudge" the math a little to cause the disparities between turn rates on planes to be more pronounced and noticeable sooner, than an absolute "bottom end" E bleed necessity which seems to happen now.
Anyway, just my thoughts are from a playability and game point of view and not from a true realism of flight sim physics position.
NOT AGAIN ! Not another endless "is my FM fudged ?" argument from WB.
Please no ! You know what would that do to a P 51, Hog or 190 ??!!
What would be next ? Limit late war BnZ planes abilities to give poor 1941 turners a chance ?
You don't want another WB Dora, do you ?
[This message has been edited by Hristo (edited 07-13-2000).]
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Planes of WB's WWII arena is asigned fields as this. It's cool. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/eek.gif)
(http://www.hh.iij4u.or.jp/~porco/jg1/ww2/ww2_arena.gif)
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Batmann <CO/JG68> from Tokyo, Japan
JG68 Briefing Room (http://www.ceres.dti.ne.jp/~batman/jg68/)
"Anybody who is Japanese and likes German aircrafts
can't but get to like Ki-61."
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Does the red/green mean they've done away with the stealth purple icons?
popeye
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Originally posted by popeye:
Does the red/green mean they've done away with the stealth purple icons?
I don't know well, because I don't fly WB already. But, Answer is affirmative. It must be 2 countries war. Red is axis. Green is Allied.
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Batmann <CO/JG68> from Tokyo, Japan
JG68 Briefing Room (http://www.ceres.dti.ne.jp/~batman/jg68/)
"Anybody who is Japanese and likes German aircrafts
can't but get to like Ki-61."
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If captured, it toggles between the two countries as illustrated, and yes there are only red and green.
Also, as the RPS progresses, all planes will not be enabled at all of your countires bases, so the possability of there being no Ponies in late war does exist.
I see lots of ponies capping THAT field, eh(And lot's of bombers trying to close it).
Lizking
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well.. i didn't think i would like the new "axis vs allied" thing but they used the older map and with 125+ guys up and only two sides there was lots of action and it was fast and furious. Had a real blast for a change. With the better turn rates it is a much more varied acm than AH but... to each his own. i suspect that the true turn rates are somewhere in between but no matter how I look at it, AH rates are most wrong comparitively speaking. Imagine if climb were as "blurred" in AH as turn is. Far as I'm concerned, anybody defending one sim over the other for "realism" is a little ki8d whistle n' in the dark to show he's not afraid. Badger is right AH does have some great and realistic features that make it worth playing.... Turn ain't one of em tho.
As for off topic rip... maybe... but heck at least it ain't boring.
lazs
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Have fun in the "arcade" Lazs. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) <GDR>
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Seems that theres more than one that don't like the WW2 arena:
A month or so ago the Generations arena came out and I flew it everynight possible trying to support it. There
were several nights with just 8 - 16 pilots in there and the fights were fantastic. Well the arena didn't make it.
The WW2 arena came along and I was Sooooooooooo excited!! Over the past three or four nights I have
logged about 11 hours in the arena and after logging off last night, I don't know if I'll go back, not that that means
anything .
There are two reasons, and only two, for my feelings.
First, it's hurting the squadron - Last night we had 8 pilots flying and 4 wanted to fly Allied and 4 Axis. I had to
make the call and we all flew together but, that's not a call I like having to make.
Second, it's just not any fun. 98% of the time I have been in there, it's been two big low level furballs in the F4, 7,
9 area and the F20 area. The rest of the map has been basically desolate except for one push the Axis made last
night for F2. 95% of the fights are, from with 30 seconds of the start to finish, nothing more than a big low level
turn fest with 15+ airplanes in the arena. Last night we sat in the tower and waited until we saw an area where
there were only two or three enemies and then we rolled and headed that way. By the time we got there it was
3:1 odds with 20+ planes in a D30ish area.
I just don't enjoy that style of fighting. I enjoy the dynamics of being up and seeing your opponent(s) and
jockeying for that opening position. Then when you both commit to the fight it becomes you and or your
wingmen against him and his. I have been looking for that in the WW2 arena but I have yet been able to find it.
Almost every fight in the new arena becomes a huge turn match with a large number of the people flying
defensive "circles" and spraying at passing planes, or 10 of one color chaing one or two of another.
Now before you tell me to take off from a further field and get alt, we did that. But the Allied planes were in
groups of 6 or more and 2 v 6 odds just don't play well, at least not for someone with my poor flying skills.
I guess the biggest issue is that in the MA we had 100 people spread out over 80% f the map and now we have
100 people using 20% IMHO.
I know it may get better when the late war Boom and Zoomers arrive from the rear fields but I actually like Early
War better but this is just no fun .
Now feel free to flame away at me, I have my fire retardent underooos on . I am asking the squadron in our
forum and I will go where they enjoy flying, I just wish there was a way to spread the arena out more.
Have a great day: Flop
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John "Flop" Elrod
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Some like to fly "Historical Matchups" and some don't. At least one has a choice in Warbirds. I, and many others, enjoy the "WWII Arena".
"Arcade" is in the eye of the beholder.
Cabby
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=44th FS "VAMPIRES"=
"The Jungle Air Force"
Welcome To The Jungle!!!"
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cabby. "at least one has a choice" in WB.
In AH H2H if you want historical, set it up. Dont like thwe guns, crank them up. You want armor only, set it up. Its pretty hard to whine about options, when you can have anything you want for free.
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But wow! What a concept. WWII planes fighting a WWII arena!
I mean, we've kinda wanted this for quite some time. And I don't mean an HA either. Kudos to WB for actually giving this 'brilliant' idea its fair shake.
How many times have we said "How do ya know it aint gonna be successful until ya try it"? I'm interested in seeing how this experiment plays out. Hopefully it's a success, and if so, hopefully we'll see something like that here.
Oh... and with the terrain editor, something like this would just rock.
[This message has been edited by Nash (edited 07-14-2000).]
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iEN should dedicate two of their best servers to the *WW2 Generations* arena and a *all planes available* arena. Doh! forgot about the 262..hehe. Dont wanna go there (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Unfortunately, as long as they are charging $2 an hour Im out of the game.
On another issue:
I just viewed the film from WBs3 and was mildly impressed. Interestingly, the much discussed terrain reminded me of Novalogics first F22 sim. Should be very interesting to see what happens with iEN and how the latest and greatest WBs fares after the apocolyptic release.
Yeager
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(http://www.geocities.com/tas13th/sqsig/yeager.gif)
[This message has been edited by Yeager (edited 07-14-2000).]
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Nash, AW has had this type of setup now for over a year - for thier relaxed realism crowd. And from what I've read at AGW and what I saw occur in AW I see the WB's setup is suffering he same fate as AW's. The early plane set favours the LW and the late plane set favours the Allies. But worse is no LW bomber able to compete with the B24 or B17 in suppor tof the "land grab". Not to mention the early plane set is lacking.
I'd eagerly fly in an environment called "WWII" or "Axis vs Allied" here, but I'd prefer if many more planes were added to the plane first. Even in WB's or AW there are too many aircraft missing.
-Westy
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Quote:
"...AW has had this type of setup now for over a year - for thier relaxed realism crowd."
Irrelevant.
Quote:
"from what I've read at AGW and what I saw occur in AW I see the WB's setup is suffering he same fate as AW's"
Way too early to tell.
Quote:
"The early plane set favours the LW and the late plane set favours the Allies."
As it did in "Real Life". Axis aircraft flown by competent Squads can deal defeat to the Late War Allies. Perhaps not as easily as the Allies can with their rugged Heavy Bombers, but it can be done. Nothing like a challenge.
Quote:
"Not to mention the early plane set is lacking."
LOL!!! I guess the He-111 is missing, but it would be a sitting duck in any case. The JU-88 is a far superior Light Bomber to the He-111.
I once led a "Weekend Warrior" IJN/IJA Force and by the time the Event ended we, the IJN/IJA, captured exactly one less field than the Allies managed with their Heavy Bombers. The IJN/IJA would have won overall if one Kate has not missed his target in the waning seconds of the Event.
It just takes a little dedication, patience, and skill, to buck the "odds".
Easymo:
In all the years i've been playing WB's, i have used H2H exactly once. I am not in the least bit interested in H2H. WB's or AH's. The "choice" i am referring to is the type of "Gameplay" available. Early War/Late War, Historical Matchups, and Historical "Re-enactments", if you will.
Cabby
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=44th FS "VAMPIRES"=
"The Jungle Air Force"
Welcome To The Jungle!!!"
[This message has been edited by cabby (edited 07-14-2000).]
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The new arena is pretty cool, time will tell if it has staying power.
The most important thing is that it shows that ien is willing to listen to input and experiment; this is the second experiment in arena settings lately.
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westy... no, the "generations" part of the WWII arena is the key. Planes are not introduced by any particular date but by "parity of performance". there are only 4 "generations" of planes for 50 odd planes. So far, the LW is NOT dominating the early (week 1) part of the set. I love the parity.
rip... u quoted that whole crybabby post? did u read it first? sheesh, the guy knows what he doesn't like but he doesn't have a clue as to what he does like except for a 2 vs 2 duel. He doesn't even need to pay to have that in AH. read the whole thread.
The WWII arena seems to be wildly popular so far and that is the bottom line. It may be "arcade" if you feel that melees with 15 or so planes is unrealistic and lone wolf hunters B&Zing WWII planes that can't turn is the height of WWII realism but.... it is popular and it has the capacity to change from week to week as opppossed to a constant 1944 arena.
It is unfortunate that there is so much action tho. No time to chat or wash the car. Oh well, there is a "phony realism" element diligently working on slowing down the action.
lazs