Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Soda on July 08, 2002, 12:54:23 PM
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Ok, I've always wondered about the flight characteristics of losing wingtips on different planes in AH. This has lead to two questions:
1) Which planes can lose a wingtip (and the aileron always goes too) and still maintain enough control to land?
2) Why are some planes easy to land in this situation and some impossible?
Answer:
1)
- La7 CAN land without wingtip, it's pretty easy.
- Spit(s) CANNOT- they retain control at higher speeds but once slow enough for landing are uncontrollable.
- 190's CAN land without wingtip
- Typhoon CANNOT - it remains controllable right up to the speed to deploy gear but can't remain upright.
- Anyone else fill in on other planes? I think the P-51 and P-47's can land but I can't be sure, it's been a while since I've had to land one with that sort of damage.
Don't know the answer to #2. Is there a specific reason or is this just the way it is modelled?
-Soda
The Assassins.
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Ailerons, wing area and lift all play into the equation.
I think, but I'm not sure, for example, the 109 has more lift in it's wings than the 190... so when you lose half (dunno what it is exactly) your left wing, your right wing may be producing too much lift to be counteracted by the aileron.
Then again, I dunno.
-SW
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I maintained level flight in a right-wingtip-less Corsair at 200 knots, but that'd be a hot landing, even for the F4U. No flaps available and if I'd actually made it back to base, the prop torque would probably have tumbled me over anyway.
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I've landed F6F's without tips before, that plane flies fairly well with a wingtip missing.
The P-51 CAN land with a damaged wing, but it's pretty tough.
J_A_B
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I took the right wingtip off a Hurri I last night and he flew well for quite a while. It was quite some time after I wished him well and flew off that I got the kill notification. (He said he lost it an had to bail.)
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P38 can as long as the engine on the damaged wing is still turning.
ts
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The La7 is a hot landing too, you need to rudder and aileron and put the gear out at 199mph... you can do it though and with a gentle hand just about anyone should be able to land an La7 with a wingtip missing almost 100% of the time.
Several planes, Spit, Typhoon, etc... can all continue to fly without a wingtip while at speed but as soon as they slow down they lose control. I know I've flown several planes after they've lost a tip but know that it'll be all but impossible to land them. I know the Hog can continue without a tip quite well, no idea about landing it that way though. I think someone told me once it can be done.
I'm just trying to understand which planes can and cannot land without a tip and why that may be. Is it just a modelling thing or is there a reason for it? I know I can land a Ta152 with both wingtips missing. I've also done that in a Me262. Overall lift isn't a problem. Unbalanced lift might be, or is it more a matter of less aileron authority to keep the plane upright (from unbalanced lift)?
-Soda
The Assassins.
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You can do it in a jug, just keep it a little faster then your normal landing.
Avid
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Originally posted by J_A_B
I've landed F6F's without tips before, that plane flies fairly well with a wingtip missing.
The P-51 CAN land with a damaged wing, but it's pretty tough.
J_A_B
Just the other day, I bounced a formation of bombers in a P-51D. I cut it too close and nicked one, knocking off my wingtip. It took some wrestling to regain control but I had no difficulty getting to an airfield. The trick to landing is not to use too much flap, slideslip (to aero mask the good wing) to equalize lift and center the rudder just as you touch down.
Neat thing about the F4U is that you can dump the gear at 300 mph, allowing for a controlled, if very hot landing (around 200 mph), as opposed to most other aircraft which won't let the gear down until or below 160 mph. For most fighters, 160 is below the minimum to retain control in the roll axis with a wingtip missing.
My regards,
Widewing
Widewing
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forget landing a 262 w/ missing wingtip
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The other day I was flying an F4U-1C (badly as usual) and had rt wingtip and left flap damaged. I tried giving it a notch of flap, and the damaged wing's lift was almost equalized by the flap (which didn't exist on the "good"wing). Landed it without difficulty.
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all 190s and 152 can do it. It is even easier if you lose both wingtips.
109 cannot do it, not even fly with wingtip missing.
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midnight Target
Had the exact same scenario in a P47 once. took damage that cost me a wingtip and the flap on the opposite wing. Came in for landing, opened the flap on the side with the wingtip missing (since the other was gone) and it landed almost totally normally. Nice and gentle. this is a rare situation though but can happen. I don't think I rely on someone who takes off a wingtip to also help me by taking off the opposite flap :) It was so easy though I was sure I could have landed an P47 with a tip missing.
So far we have:
YES
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190's
P47
P38
La7
Ta152
Hog
P-51
F6F
NO
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Spits
Typhoon
Me262
109's
-Soda
The Assassins.
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Add "Yak" to NO list. In my experience you just can't keep the clipped wing from slowly dropping.
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Originally posted by gofaster
I maintained level flight in a right-wingtip-less Corsair at 200 knots, but that'd be a hot landing, even for the F4U. No flaps available and if I'd actually made it back to base, the prop torque would probably have tumbled me over anyway.
Kbman does it all the time. In fact, he's put it down on the CV with a missing tip.
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110's can't do it.
I've tried full trim, and even powering up the engine on the missing wing tip side. 110's often lose wingtips on a merge, because of their large wingspan.
Full rudder can keep them in the air but trying to land seems impossible.
Undeth
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Hmmm, reading the above posts it seems obvious in retrospect that *which* wingtip is lost makes a huge difference. It makes sense that if you loose the wingtip towards which the engine wants to turn you then you will have a much harder time than if you can use the torque of the engine to help keep you horizontal.
This would explain the conflicting reports on the F4U above.
Looks to me like the chart needs to have two columns, one for the right wing and one for the left.
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f6f landing with both wings clipped (no ailrons too, just rudder and elevators)
f6f clipped wings (http://www.aikkon.com/vikings/bozon/f6f_clipped_wings.zip)
as opposed to what 10bear said, 262 landing with 1 clipped wing (rough landing, but safe). the missing part is still stuck in some B17 out there:
262 landing (http://www.aikkon.com/vikings/bozon/saving_perks.ahf)
done it in a p-47 as well.
Bozon
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Incorrect, I Have film.
Originally posted by Soda
- Typhoon CANNOT - it remains controllable right up to the speed to deploy gear but can't remain upright.
-Soda
The Assassins.
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i have landed 109e4
262
all 190
zeke
arado
a bunch of planes :)
Turn off combat trim
adjust all trim (rudder, aileron) to the opposite side.
Trim elevator up
find a joystick position the keeps the plane from rolling.
Once you are near an nme field dont worry about where you land just use your throttle to power down and decend.
Hold gear till the last second on some planes. Some planes benefit from flaps others dont. once you are the ground you can drive to the runway.
To bleed off speed keep you elevator trim all the way up and use a little back pressure on the stick.
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Sort of off topic, but I recently read a story about the real life prototype F8F. It seems the engineers who designed the wings actually contemplated the fact that a wing tip, or portion thereof, could be lost in combat. In order to counter the asymmetrical lift that would result, the engineers came up with the bright idea of having explosive bolts in the wings. The idea was that if the pilot lost one wing tip he could "lose" the other by firing the bolts.
As was indicated in the story, the foregoing was not a popular idea with Bearcat pilots, and was dropped rather quickly.
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To quote the Farside, "Wings stay on. Wings fall off."
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F4F-4 doesn't fly so well with the left wingtip and ailerion missing. I thought flaps might help my carrier landing but it didn't seem to do a thing.
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Kanth,
which tip? I lost my right one last night in a Typhoon, fought it for a while, managed to maintain control, could even climb, but as soon as I tried to slow down it became less and less controllable untli it just flopped over. Without speed it was uncontrollable. I even zoom climbed it at one point, got the flaps and gear out when stopped near the top, couldn't recover it or maintain control though. My sink rate was such that I was doomed to smack the ground like a stone.
-Soda
Assassin.
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If you can get your flaps down(The real trick is slowing down enough to do that, without losing control) most planes become controllable.
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I can get a hog down, but once down it gets crazy minus a flap..hot :D
Anyone attempted landing with a damaged tail wheel ?? In a F4U this afternoon and had visions of groundlooping flashing before my eyes. So I belly landed it.
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Mosquito cannot. It remains controlable if you keep the speed above 200 or 250. Below that and you'll tumble. I was using all the tricks, full opposite trim, rudder over, ect, ect. It just can't get slow enough to lower flaps and gear while still being controlable.
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I have landed an N1K2-J and La5 without wingtips. Not the C.205
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Soda, I believe it was the Right tip and I came in pretty fast for the landing and it wasn't pretty but I stayed upright and coasted to a stop.
I'd look at the film and tell you but it seems with this new version that more than half of my films are non-viewable (lock the film viewer up or give error) so I can't tell you for sure...
went thru over a 100 films looking for it tho...=(
One thing by your description, on the typh the flaps come down after the gear, (pretty much useless) just leave the flaps up and land it, if the gear are down you can land it. don't futz with the flaps.
It's ugly but can be done.. don't manuver much and make fast landing.
Originally posted by Soda
Kanth,
which tip? I lost my right one last night in a Typhoon, fought it for a while, managed to maintain control, could even climb, but as soon as I tried to slow down it became less and less controllable untli it just flopped over. Without speed it was uncontrollable. I even zoom climbed it at one point, got the flaps and gear out when stopped near the top, couldn't recover it or maintain control though. My sink rate was such that I was doomed to smack the ground like a stone.
-Soda
Assassin.
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109s can land with a wingtip missing. I did it thrice (and tried it a million times) in my AH career - have film of 1 landing in a G10!! Don't remember which version of AH though!
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190s are a piece of cake as long as you have some rudder left. Straight on runway 80% of the time.
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Now for the hard stuff - try landing without elevator and ailerons!! Dunno if I ever actually made it (that dmg happens rare enough alright) - use throttle in combination with rudder to control pitch, vice versa for yaw, rolling... :) - the problem is that you have to stay fast in order to descend slowly - too fast for a landing... get slow and you won't have any control over pitch --> nose falls, so does plane!
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"Now for the hard stuff - try landing without elevator and ailerons!! Dunno if I ever actually made it (that dmg happens rare enough alright) - use throttle in combination with rudder to control pitch, vice versa for yaw, rolling... - the problem is that you have to stay fast in order to descend slowly - too fast for a landing... get slow and you won't have any control over pitch --> nose falls, so does plane!"
Have done that with P47 and F4Ud :-) Great fun!
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I deadsticked a 190D9 last night missing a tip and it was as easy as can be. Right tip was gone, engine starved of fuel getting back to base, glided it in and landed. The touchdown was right on profile, very easy.
Flaps don't seem to help in the case of unbalanced lift. The problem seems to be that on some planes there just isn't enough aileron authority to compensate for the unbalanced lift. I've managed to dump the flaps out on just about every situation with a wingtip-less plane and it never made the difference between being successful and not.
Kanth,
I'm thinking it was the left tip, the right tip I've tried many times and haven't had any success. I've kept the speedo right at 199mph to try and maintain enough speed for control but couldn't. I've had the flaps out and everything at lower speeds to try that and it also doesn't work. In the previous version before they mutilated the roll rate I could land a Typhoon. Now the Typhoon doesn't have enough aileron compensation to pull it off. Maybe if the engine torque could be used to help you could do it but I haven't had the opportunity to try it. I actually managed to land a SpitIX once that way, total fluke, but it worked.
I've tried a 109 before without success though it appeared it might be possible. the Spit is really close too, but in 100 attempts I think I pulled it off once, so that counts as a no.
-Soda
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The Israeli Airforce had one such incident :)
Unbelievable! But DON'T look at the picture until you read the story below! Read the article, then look at the picture.
A simulated dogfight training took place between two F-15D's and four A-4N Skyhawks over the skies of the Negev, Israel. The F-15D #957, (nicknamed 'Markia Shchakim', 5 killmarks) was used for the conversion of a new pilot in the squadron. Here is the description of the event as described in "Pressure suit":
"At some point I collided with one of the Skyhawks, at first I didn't realize it. I felt a big strike, and I thought we passed through the jet stream of one of the other aircraft. Before I could react, I saw the big fire ball created by the explosion of the Skyhawk.
The radio started to deliver calls saying that the Skyhawk pilot has ejected, and I understood that the fireball was the Skyhawk, that exploded, and the pilot was ejected automatically.
There was a tremendous fuel stream going out of my wing, and I understood it was badly damaged. The aircraft flew without control in a strange spiral. I reconnected the electric control to the control surfaces, and slowly gained control of the aircraft until I was straight and level again. It was clear to me that I had to eject. When I gained control I said : "Hey, wait, don't eject yet!" No warning light was on and the navigation computer worked as usual; (I just needed a warning light in my panel to indicate that I missed a wing...)." My instructor pilot ordered me to eject.
The wing is a fuel tank, and the fuel indicator showed 0.000 so I assumed that the jet stream sucked all the fuel out of the other tanks. However, I remembered that the valves operate only in one direction, so that I might have enough fuel to get to the nearest airfield and land. I worked like a machine, wasn't scared and didn't worry. All I knew was as long as the sucker flies, I'm gonna stay inside. I started to decrease the airsp! eed, but at that point one wing was not enough. So I went into a spin down and to the right. A second before I decided to eject, I pushed the throttle and lit the afterburner. I gained speed and thus got control of the aircraft again.
Next thing I did was lower the arresting hook. A few seconds later I touched the runway at 260 knots, about twice the recommended speed, and called the tower to erect the emergency recovery net. The hook was torn away from the fuselage because of the high speed, but I managed to stop 10 meters before the net. I turned back to shake the hand of my instructor, who had urged me to eject, and then I saw it for the first time - no wing !!!
The IAF (Israeli Air Force) contacted McDonnell Douglas and asked for information about possibility to land an F-15 with one wing. MD replied that this is aerodynamically impossible, as confirmed by computer simulations... Then they received the photo.... After two months the same F-15 got a new wing and returned to action. Special thanks to Tsahi Ben Ami.
This is what "Flight international" wrote about the incident: "The most outstanding Eagle save was by a pilot from a foreign Air Force".
During air combat training his two-seater F-15 was involved in a mid air collision with an A-4 Skyhawk.
The A-4 crashed, and the Eagle lost its right wing from about 2 ft. outboard. After some confusion between the instructor who said eject, and the student who outranked his instructor and said no, the F-15 was landed at it's desert base. Touching down at 290 knots, the hook was dropped for an approach end engagement. This slowed the F-15 to 100 knots, when the hook weak link sheared, and the aircraft was then braked conventionally.
It is said that the student was later demoted for disobeying his instructor, then promoted for saving the aircraft.
McDonnell Douglas attributes the saving of this aircraft to the amount of lift generated by the engine intake/body and "a hell of a good pilot".
(http://www.uss-bennington.org/pics/phz-nowing-f15.jpg)
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I find that by rolling in aileron trim helps to level the aircraft. As soon as I can I dial in flaps, it definitely helps level the aircraft. The pony is very recoverable when missing a wingtip using the above method. The P-47 is a bit tougher but doable.
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So far we have:
YES
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190's - easy, done it even deadstick
P47 - easy
P38
La7 - just come in hot
Ta152
Hog - easy
P-51 - barely a challenge
F6F
N1K
La-5
Arado - Done this one too myself
Zeke - mine always burn, never lose tip.
NO
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Spits - did it once, in 100 tries.
Typhoon - I still don't believe it, tried dozens of times but nada.
Me262 ?
109's - someone mentioned the E can be landed and G10? hmmm
110
Mossie
C205
-Soda
The Assassins.
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Originally posted by 10Bears
forget landing a 262 w/ missing wingtip
Landing with one or both wingtips missing is possible with the Me 262. I've done single wingtip landings several times, once with one engine dead. I've performed two no-wingtip landings by using the rudder for roll control. The approach to landing is very long, very flat and very high angle of attack.
The Mossie is the only airplane that has eluded any of my attempts at a controlled wheel landing with one wingtip missing. Not enough aileron available, even with full opposite trim, to keep it level when slow.
MiG
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I've landed F6F's without tips before, that plane flies fairly well with a wingtip missing.
I've had the opposite experience... to me the p51 seems much easier to land sans one wingtip than the F6F. Maybe which wing has suffered the damage matters in the equation because of engine torque. I've landed both the F6F and the P51 but the F6F I usually have to work harder at and have a much lower success rating. ;)
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Dittos on the Me262....I over G'd and busted off both wingtips on one. Limped home, making LONG SLOW turns for a LONG final approach (praying for no cons!) and managed to set her down with runway to spare.
No such luck on any Lancaster ive ever flown and lost a wingtip ;)
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Soda: I can 100% confirm landing a 1.5 winged 109! Posted some pics of it even - loong time ago - gonna do a search. Since I do a format c: every 1/2 year chances are slim that I find the film anywhere - but the post should be on the BBS somewhere!
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F4U-1D flies nicely without both wing tips...
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Count me in on a 109 landing. It was way back in the beta terrain, and I just happend to set it down on a downslope. I seem to remeber this was before they increased lethality of the ground. Can't even remember if it was with or without gear.
Remeber those days? You could remove an entire wing of the enemy at alt of a couple of hundred feet, and you still couldn't be sure that he wouldn't just bounce up and down on the ground a bit before he came to a halt and exited. LOL
__________________
Ltn. Snefens
Lentolaivue 34 (http://www.muodos.fi/LLv34)
My AH homepage (http://home14.inet.tele.dk/snefens/index2.htm)
(http://home14.inet.tele.dk/snefens/209.gif)
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I was flying a Lanc in a shallow dive to get under clouds, building up speed when I heard structure stress groans, I hit "X" auto level . Both wingtips snapped off at the outward engines. :eek: It handled well and flew fast and only had rudder to initiate turns. I dumped the bombs I had left and stayed near clouds untill clear on the way back. Flaps were still working and I made an easy hot landing. I tried to do it again once but failed to duplicate. It would have been amusing to tour with some fighters without the tips.. new high speed perked Lanc.
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F4u can *fight* without wing tips.
I've heard of kills made with F4u from long time ago and also long time ago I've had attempt to fight in one without wingtips, was stabile, just lacking the ailerons.
Bf109 can land, but it is quite tough to do due to torque
Fw190 does it fairly easily, which saved me during 278 streak one time when B17 shot the tip off.
C202/205 can also land without wingtips, but will be quite funny to fly it since engine must be managed correctly or torque takes over.
long time ago also landed B17 without wingtip.. actually ditched and then "landed"
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...only 278? Thought you were beyond 300! :D
God, how I envyed you - well, I still do... ;)
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'Bout the clipped wing F4U - more than one of them escaped me after being released of a wingtip - at that time the "clipped wing F4U are faster than normal F4U"-theory grew amongst the community...
Some Allie(ns)d even supported that phenomenon with physical theories like less drag and stuff... ;)
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I have landed a Lancaster without wingtips, ailerons, vertical stabs and elevators. I used speed and flaps for altitude control and engines for turn and sideslip control. I think I have a film somewhere...
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Landing anything with both wingtips is not really that tough. I've torn off the pair of them in a number of planes and the worst part is that the plane tends to be nose heavy and rolling is only done with the rudder. Other than that as long as you aren't too violent in the approach there are no real problems.
I've landed a 109 and Spit, but it was so many versions ago now that I don't know that same could be done. i think some of the flight model rules have changed enough that anything landed without a tip more than a year ago probably didn't have the same rules on torque effects, not mentioning a number of other things that seemed to change. I think my 109 landing was also downhill but that was before terrain with clutter on it.
The Hog and 190 can both still fight without a wingtip, so can the La7 (though it is pretty tough). Done it in desperation a couple of times in each.
As far as I know, I've never seen, or flown, a bomber and landed it without a wingtip. Loss of wingtip = bail. I had a B-17 once that I kept airborne with high speed for a while, but it made no difference, once the speed and alt was bled out it was bail time.
-Soda
The Assassins.