Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: DmdBT on September 04, 2000, 09:40:00 AM
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With the latest info "releases" by HTC, it seems that what we have just isn't filling the company coffers well enough. I am by far not a marketing expert or business strategist and the following is just my humble opinion, take it ir leave it.
I sent an email on my squad list. The Damned has numbers into the hundreds spanning from flight sims to RPGs to shooters. I simply asked why don't more of us fly AH and why of those that did the majority didn't stay. The most common answer was the pricing, especially by our non-USA members. Look at the Damned roster and you will see about 17 names listed, of which only about 5 or 6 have active accounts. Using that as an example it seems HTC is only converting about a third of its free trials into paying accounts. "$9.95 all you can eat" pricing seems to be the norm for just about all online games these days except for AH/WB. Sad, especially when the other sim's regulars are so fed-up with the stagnation of their products at the moment and could be looking for a change.
Instead of giving AH "easier" options, maybe lower the pricing and form an official training course like the Air Warrior Training Academy back on GEnie to help train/transition pilots into the sim without them feeling like they are only spending their money being targets.
If I didn't care, I wouldn't post.
T
(throws away stick after realizing the horse is dead)
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I just became a paying AH customer. $29.95 may seem like alot, but it'll beat my WB's bill, and I won't have to continually monitor my flying time to make sure I don't get a nasty surprise at the end of the month. And I'll actually be able to spend time training without one eye on the clock!
I'm looking forward to the new planes and FM in 1.04. I see a few WBs handles here I respect and admire, and I think with the release of the terrain editor and continually expanding plane/vehicle set, good things are in store for the community.
Salute!
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give them a Easy arena for 10 $
for 20 lets have something more like hard perk (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
and for all the hardcore nuts for 30$ the pure HA (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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I say do it for free. All the other good online games are free. We pay em 30bucks a motnh and they are as slow as toejam on making a new version
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Maximus, that is about the dumbest thing I have ever seen posted.
HTC is not some huge international corporation with unlimited funds. It is a 6 person company, barely out of the "start-up" mode and cant let us play free.
For those that think $30 is too much, well I am sorry, but right now there are really only 2 online sims that play anywhere near th is level, and the other one costs a whole hell of a lot more money. I used to pay $150 a month routinely to play it.
I have played other online games, ones that were free or $10 a month. Guess what? They were full of amazinhunks. Games like AH attract and retain a much better quality of person as a player. I will gladly pay $30 a month if it means I dont have to put up with so many jerks and quakeheads.
For once, just for once, I wish guys would try to see it from the side of the company trying to give us a good product, a fun game and a great online sim.
Dago
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Nevermind Max (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Amused,
By-Tor
[This message has been edited by By-Tor (edited 09-04-2000).]
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Yet another royally stupid comment from Maximus (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Dmbt, I agree with you. I was a paying costumer for a month or 2. I know a dozen friends JUST in my neighborhood that LOVE AH.. and we play all the time in H2H. Would they have an account if it was $10 a month? You bet!. And why are they not in AH? $30 a month.
Granted, this sim is WAY above any other... but it all bears down on the market. You can have the best quality stuff around, but if you dont have a sufficient demand for it, you will go broke or be left behind (in $$ and amount of demand) by the competition.
Its just like the PC and the Mac. Mac is better in quality, but since its so expensive AND not many "average user" stuff are made for it (because people dont buy as much macs as pc's), people dont buy them as much as the PC.
AH=Mac, PC=any $10 a month game. Why does AH have so few subscribers? You be the judge.
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It aint the price. It's the game itself. $30/mo. is a good price. IF the game is substantially better/more innovative than anything else around. Currently, that is not the case. AH needs more planes, more strat, more terrains, and a re-vamped flight-model.
HTC does all that and most WB'ers(and others) would be here. Until then...........
Cabby
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=44th FS "VAMPIRES"=
"The Jungle Air Force"
Welcome To The Jungle!!!"
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Max, you neecd to work on your lures. You wont catch anything that way (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif).
As to the dmdbt,s post. On the money.
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Originally posted by cabby:
AH needs more planes, more strat, more terrains, and a re-vamped flight-model.
3 outa 4 next release?
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Cabby,
Sorry bud I have to disagree with you here.
Until AH supports the Mac, HTC is never going to draw any kind of crowd from Warbirds. Although the Mac is only a small part of WB (what about 20-30%) I'd be willing to bet that almost every squad in WB has at least one Mac user.
Are those squads going to say to their one or two Mac using members, "Well we'll see ya later. We're going over to AH and you can't go because they don't allow Macs"? I know of several squads that are only flying Warbirds because it's the only sim that all of their members can fly.
I mean if we are really honest, we have to admit that plane for plane, graphics engine to graphics engine, strat for strat, AH meets or exceeds WB in every catagory.
I admit that WB has more events but those are player run events and although some good ones, the last iEN sponsered event was the NG scenerio and I'd be willing to bet that AH will hold it's first company sponsered multiframe scenerio before iEN holds it's next one.
If you want to talk flight models well I have no idea which is correct an neither do you I'm guessing. (If you have time flying P-51s P-38s or FW-190s I will defer to your opinion on that)
So other than a few more planes modeled and some player run events (which are coming on strong in AH) if we are truely honest about the subject, the quality of the sim has nothing to do with people leaving WB and coming to AH.
When HTC decided not to code for the Mac he pissed off a lot of people (sorry HT not questioning your decision it's just what I see in the community) and those people belong to squads in WB. The other squad members are not going to support a product the is "segragating" some of it's members until they are absolutly forced to.
With WBIII coming down the road and WWIIonline both providing Mac support, I don't ever see a big influx of Warbirders in AH.
Thanks,
Sharky
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Quote:
<Snip>
"if we are truely honest about the subject, the quality of the sim has nothing to do with people leaving WB and coming to AH."
Most come to AH because of the cost compared to the outrageous cost of WB's Full-Realism. On the other hand, most stay in WB's because WB's is more fun (i.e. more planes, more varied styles of ACM). The MAC issue, a disappointment for some, isn't the big reason, IMO.
I just hope HTC and iEN both don't dumb-down their games to get broader appeal.
Cabby
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=44th FS "VAMPIRES"=
"The Jungle Air Force"
Welcome To The Jungle!!!"
[This message has been edited by cabby (edited 09-04-2000).]
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It's just Maximus - the guy isn't apparently old enough to know what it means to provide for yourself or what a job is. When mommy and daddy buy everything for you anyway, of course online everything should be free. Most everything else is free anyway.
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LOLOLOLOLOL Maximusignaramus (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
MAC ? they still around ? .. oh yeah ,,, saw one in corner of my Computer Supply ,,has cobwebs on it.
[This message has been edited by carl (edited 09-04-2000).]
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I was making an analogy Sharky. Compare the number of games done FOR the Mac (not for PC and with mac support thrown in) with those done for the PC. Its the market HTC is in, and I believe I understand why AH has no Mac support. Perhaps in the future when the company has a foothold and can waste time on such leasures.
Then perhaps we can have AH for the GAMEBOY! Give a hoot! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Great, cabby brings his own brand of idiocy here now :\.
Well, I got news for ya. I played WB for FREE and I'd rather be here, a paying customer.
IMO the game is better, PERIOD. And Most of my squadron seems to agree.
<shrug>
Vila
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All of our WB squad agree Vila,
There's no doubt AH is next generation. It's just a couple'a months away from satalite data terrain maps based on real world battles. Player driven carriers will put it over the top imo. Every month brings a new plane, it's gonna be scenario heaven.
Sadly, BT's right. AW players say drop it to $10 a month. and I'm in like a shot. WB players say that $10 +$2.00hr is cheaper for casual players. Wouldn't suppose to understand HT's business, but dropping the price would obviously bring in many new customers. That doesn't mean I don't think AH is worth $30. Beats $300 bills in dos AW!
I think what HTC's crew has done in their 1st year is remarkable. While others have twiddled thumbs at $2hr, you guys built a sim from the ground up. 3D cockpits alone should win ya sim of the year. Imagine having a neck! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) Your cloudscapes are stunning, as is the high res artwork.
Maybe more folks at cheaper fees won't add up. But it was so overwhelming on our board. Only one pilot didn't like the flight model, but many posted about the price. I'm sure ya know best, just wanted to pass along the info. Sic 'em HTC! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Cya up...Braz
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I just came from one of those "other" sims where I was only paying 9.95 a month. I will gladly pay the extra money for a superior product. The only people the extra $ might discourage are those looking for "Air Quake", because this isn't it, and they can find that cheaper elsewhere. Just my 2 cents.
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LJK_Raubvogel
Luftjäger I-13
Luftjägerkorps (http://www.luftjagerkorps.com)
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For me and my exchange rate 30 $ are a lot, but..
[list=1]- If this keep away the Airquakersprettythangholes, i pay, no doubt.
- The sim is already beautiful.
- Continued improvements
- More planes coming (or i hope so (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)).
- Different terrains in SEA? very fun scenarios (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif).
- Army, Navy, we can have the real (almost) complete war simulation (like WWIIonline).
- The staff playing the game (but HT with improved FM, cheater!! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif))
- The staff discussing with us the improvements and reacting to the critics in a constructive manner.
- A GREAT community, with (almost (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)) mature and nice pilots (<S> )
[/list=a]
Oh God, what else you want for 30 bucks ?!?!
(maybe free beer? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/rolleyes.gif) )
(Not bad idea !! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif))
[This message has been edited by Naso (edited 09-05-2000).]
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Quote:
"Great, cabby brings his own brand of idiocy here now :\."
Whose brand of idiocy should i bring?? Your's??
"IMO the game is better, PERIOD. And Most of my squadron seems to agree."
And most of my squadron disagrees. Perhaps a new release or two and HTC will change our minds. The disappearing icon thing sounds very interesting.
Cabby
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=44th FS "VAMPIRES"=
"The Jungle Air Force"
Welcome To The Jungle!!!"
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Originally posted by LJK Raubvogel:
The only people the extra $ might discourage are those looking for "Air Quake", because this isn't it, and they can find that cheaper elsewhere.
You are absolutely wrong LJK.
I simply can't invest $30 each month
for a game because privat isues.
So i'm stuck in the H2H Arena.
And trust me i'm not searching "Air Quake".
Gh0stFT
ps. i'm working on it, it could be possible soon to become a paying customer (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
[This message has been edited by Gh0stFT (edited 09-05-2000).]
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what vila said
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lynx
13 Sqn RAF
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I think everyone has his own agenda for what likes and dislikes are, and certainly one persons opinion can sway an entire squadron (See Cabby's squadron).
Mine was not financially motivated. I came to AH, tried it in Beta at V.34, came back in around V.44 or so, and witnessed so many improvements. It was still not even close to being up to WB's par, but I could forsee the future with these folks accepting feedback, implementing it, and making changes almost daily. WB's at the time of my decision, had more to offer, but, boredom of the same ol' same ol' after 6 years of the same software was the primary factor of coming over to AH. I did miss the historical arenas and the scenario lites in WB's, but knew it was just a matter of time before AH would have it (We had our first scenario in Febuary I believe, LW won, since it was 70% JG2 !)
Now, boredom is a funny thing,especially in my case. I've had 4 different jobs within the company I work for in the last 15 years, when I become proficient at something, I move on. It's prevented me from being 'surplused' within the company. I'm always open for something new and challenging.
Sometimes you can set something down for awhile, and then re-find the excitement again. After excercising that option for many months, you rely on 'updates' to make new challenges for yourself. AH has had that. WB's has not.
This isn't bashing WB's, its a fine sim, I still play HTH, but it is the honest truth..its reached it maximum capacity for its 'outdated' shelf life. WB3 is in the shadows, we'll see when it reveals itself. Meanwhile, new versions of AH are very exciting, the community is as tight as WB's was, and the sim gives me energy just thinking about logging in, as WB's did many moons ago.
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Ripsnort(-rip1-)
=CO= VMF-323 ~Death Rattlers~
"Know your limits and then go beyond.."
Click here for VMF-323 Death Rattlers info (http://Ripsnort60.tripod.com/vmf323inquirer.html)
Click here for 15th Panzer info (http://Ripsnort60.tripod.com/panzerinquirer.html)
(http://ripsnort60.tripod.com/ripsnort323.gif)
I spare no class or cult or creed,
My course is endless through the year.
I bow all heads and break all hearts,
All owe homage-I am Fear.
-------------General Patton
[This message has been edited by Ripsnort (edited 09-05-2000).]
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Whose brand of idiocy should i bring?? Your's??
Of course! My brand of idiocy is clearly superior. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
And most of my squadron disagrees. Perhaps a new release or two and HTC will change our minds. The disappearing icon thing sounds very interesting.
And thus you make my point for me. A blanket statement like "WB is more fun" is utter bullcrap, because you don't know what is fun to other people. WB is more fun for YOU, but clearly not for a lot of people HERE. I'm sure some guys think nothing is more fun than Quake, but I don't agree with them. If WB is more for you and your sqaudron, by all means STAY THERE, but don't assume that everyone is here becasue of price. As I said, I played WB for free, and I'd rather pay $30/month for AH.
Vila
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If you were playing it for free you werent playing the whole game
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Narsus
The *** Blue Knights *** DVB's
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Unfortunatley speaking rationally to Cabby is like trying to ski uphill. He's the kind of player who sufferes from game worship and refuses to see anything wrong with the game he plays and belittle's anyone who plays anything else, kinda like the quake vs unreal idiots who constantly run each others game down.
I fly Aces High right now because I made a consumer decision because Warbirds did'nt cut it for me personally which prompted me to try AH then quit WB, thats not to say I'd never go back because I've hovered a few times over the subsciption button for WB just to pop in for say a month to say hi to some old friends I left behind and to maybe try the WW2Arena and see if its as good as some say. Both sims have their warts and for me personally right now WB just a few more than AH right now, thats not to say thats not going to change which is when I'll decide which sim is worth my money, and thats not in the sense of who offers the flat rate but what sim is WORTH the money in features, I was quite used to large WB bills at the height of my addiction (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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"I know a dozen friends JUST in my neighborhood that LOVE AH.. and we play all the time in H2H. Would they have an account if it was $10 a month? You bet!. And why are they not in AH? $30 a month."
Don't take this personal TAC but in regard to the above, just because folks who are used to the drive thru window at Burger King or the local What-A-Burger fast joints goes out and gets a chance to enjoy a better meal at, say, a "99" restaraunt, should they then expect the "99" restaraunt to open up a fast food take out window and offer $2.99 "Happy Dweeb" meal versus the Chicken parmigiana dinner or specialty burger?
-Westy
[This message has been edited by Westy (edited 09-05-2000).]
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What the heck, 1 more opinion couldn't hurt, right?
Still a relative newbie in AH (wondering how long that excuse will hold out) & the asbestos suit itches, so please try to hold any flaming to a minimum (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
I came to AH from WB for a few reasons:
1. price. big-time. I just don't think it's a real argument that $30 flat rate is too expensive compared to what "the only other decent sim" charges. Tried to monitor my time in WB as closely as possible (even to the extent of spending a lot of time in ACA. Sorta like buying "ditch weed" when you need a buzz), but I still got socked over & over again with big bills from ien. Sure, I'm a sim addict, I'll admit it. So I guess I'm spoiled by being able to log on to AH & just leave it on if I feel like it & the cost won't go up. I doubt $30 a month is gonna start to feel like "too much", even after I've gotten rid of the memories of the 3 digit WB bills(& before that, AOL's FO <shudder>, don't know if anybody else here ever flew there. $2 hr, no free time credited for fee, all tacked right on your AOL bill. All this for basically what is now WB's ACA).
2. Challenge in flying. I've flown many box sims (ech, is there actually a challenging WW2 box sim?), & WB's. Not saying there aren't extremely good pilots in WB, but I have found, very much my own opinion, that the average AH pilot is a superior fighter. Perhaps something to do with flat rate makes AH pilots more patient, I know it makes me a LOT more comfortable with spending the time to climb to a position where I can fight.
3. Response from the company. How many times have I seen HT in MA? Countless. Answering questions, fighting right along side us. I signed in on a weekend recently when there was a server prob. at HTC & saw him explaining what had happenned to customers & then making sure it was fixed! (AWESOME HT (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) )
In the short time I've been here, I've seen a new release & a terrain editor & prob. soon will see another new release with (heavily debated as usual) changes to the FM, probably new AC & (fingers crossed) some open water & flat-tops (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Just think these are things that are absolutely worth what we pay.
- kidcol2 -
-=NightStalkers=-
[This message has been edited by kidcol (edited 09-05-2000).]
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Vila:
"A blanket statement like "WB is more fun" is utter bullcrap, because you don't know what is fun to other people."
Just what my 35 Squadron members, the many folks i talked to at the WB's Con, and those i talk to online. Other than that, you are right, i don't know what is fun to other people. If you can fly WB's for free, and choose to pay for AH, that amazes me. It truly does. And no, "everyone" doesnt play AH due to the price. But i stand by the statement that most do.
Revvin: You are the LAST person to talk about "rationality."
Cabby
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=44th FS "VAMPIRES"=
"The Jungle Air Force"
Welcome To The Jungle!!!"
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Low amount of costumers=high price?
High amount of costumers=low price?
income for HTC during 30 dollars
100 costumers=3000 dollars
300 costumers=9000 dollars
Income for HTC during 10 dollars
100 costumers=1000 dollars
300 costumers=3000 dollars
And do we want to have thoose HO-ING DWEEBS THAT ARE NOT DEDICATED ENOUGH TO PAY 30 BUCKS?
Dont be stupid guys, lower price means just to much "shit", for all, HTC as us (that love to fly in Hitech´s world.)
I see the high (read low) price to be a equlizer, that sorts the fans out from the crowd.
HELL, raise the prize to 50$ for a while HTC, then people could complain with grounds.
My very last WB bill was 67$,in april 1999 go figure.)
El crabo
( yes I know, but this is my opinion, so I dont give a rats prettythang what you all are talking about)
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Cabby,
I have NO DOUBT you and your squaddies find WB to be more fun for you... for whatever reason. I also DON'T find it suprising that those who go to a WB con would prefer WB. BUT, you still have no basis for your claim that MOST AH players would rather play WB if it weren't for the price. No basis at all other than your opinion.
That's backed up by the fact that you're amazed that I'm paying to play here instead being in WB for free. Somehow you can't understand why I would do that... and that explains your position.
What I'm saying is that you need to acknowledge that your pronouncements are based on your opinion, and not on some objective truth of the matter.
Vila
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I fly WB for free AND pay for AH :P
(Although I havent flown AH since the WW2 Arena started in WB).
Daff
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CO, 56th Fighter Group
"This is Yardstick. Follow me"
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Damn Cabby I didn't know WB was more fun. Thanks for telling me bud!
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I remember the price fights on AGW when I first started flying Warbirds.
I was an advocate for lower pricing. Not necessarily Flat Rate, just cheaper, although I leaned more towards flat rate.
Many people stood up, and yelled "Flat Rate means DWEEBERY! If you aren't dedicated enough to pay the price, hit the streets, dweeb!"
Now you people are claiming the same thing even though there is a flat rate plan in place. It took me a short while to see the logic in that. But I DO agree, lower the price=lower standard of participants. Period.
Warbirds has a 9.95 a month unlimited plan in the ACA, they scream at trainers who offer help, on the edge of verbal abuse. Not dweebs, just salamanders, basically. Fine guys who offer their time and efforts to say "Anyone need some help?" and get verbally slaughtered. You want this in Aces High's arenas? I doubt you do.
What it comes down to is QUALITY. When AH went pay for play, I headed back to warbirds. There were issues, that I PERSONALLY, felt were important, that HTC feels is too petty to fix. This kills the immersion factors for me.
Clipping Issues - alot of bleed over from warbirds type bugs, many new ones. In the H2H version of AH, dots are visible behind mountains. Bottom gunner on the B-17. I remember thinking "Pay for Play?!?! The B-17 still look like crap! And now they wanna charge for it? NOT!"
Flight models - in my opinion, not as good. You people used to claim they were better than Warbirds, nothings changed in their design, but now they're not as good? And are now going to be made closer to WB.
Price - Its mainly not worth $30 a month to me, lack of that "worth it" feeling, and back then I wasn't spending much time in sims and wasn't going to spend 30 bux worth of time online.
There's more, but its been awhile since I've played AH...
Ol well...
That just my opinion, and I don't care if its wrong.
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I never in my whole life had so much fun for 30 dollar.
Mine first online flightsimming experience was 2 years ago with EAW. After 1,5 years i got AH from hearings off squad members.
I was very anoyed in the MA my first 2 weeks
and many out off the eaw community did also.
Right now i still try too convince squad members. But after playing EAW for free and a totaly new hard FM it is very hard.
I got my hopes on 1.04 now because a lot off them give it another look than.
Yep it's worth 30 dollar a month but younger members will not have a creditcard unfortunally.
I hope it will be somewhat cheaper in the future but now i think HTC must survive for 1 or 2 years than everything will be better for them.
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If you were playing it for free you werent playing the whole game
FYI narsus, Vila was a WB trainer, and one of the hottest sticks around.
Trainers fly on free accounts.
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C.O. Phoenix Squadron
http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/phoenix
Aces High Training Corps
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My cat likes AW. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Hang
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Hang, so does my 4 year old son!!! What are the odds? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
-Westy
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Interesting thread, it would be nice to get it back on-topic.
Cabby, whassup bro? No need for that kind of rabid animosity here (or on AGW).
Anyone who compares AH to WB in this context is doing apples and oranges, IMO. AH is still in the very early stages of it's development (did anyone forget that?) and has all the same warts that any Sim has at this stage of it's life.
WB is a mature (stagnant?) Sim with a lot more planes, arenas, events, etc. Given time (say, 6 months? a year?), I don't think there will be much to choose from between the two as far as amenities and value-added features go.
The original question, and a darned good one, is what can and should be done to reduce customer turnover. It is quite high for this Sim, I think.
However, there's no need to throw the baby out with the bathwater. This isn't so much about drastic changes or basic flaws as it is about development priorities and what needs to be done first to retain customers.
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Vadr
Kommandeur, III/JG 2 'Richthofen' (http://www.jg2.org/)
CM, S3 Team (http://personal.smartt.com/~barbell/S3main.html)/Parser (http://www.cgidesign.net/s3/)
vadr@jg2.org
Combat Flightsim Business Forum (http://www.egroups.com/group/flightsimsonline)
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Well, I haven't done any legitimate research on this, but thing that strikes me in AH is that I meet up with very few "raw newbie" types.
Very few pilots I meet up with show NO ACM ability, most are at least seem familiar with the basics. What this means, is that it is HARD for a newbie to develop in this community.
I remember when I first started playing Warbirds.... msost of the pilots I flew with were new to the on-line simming world. They, like I, were learning to fly and fight online for the first time. The vets that came from AW were fairly dominant at first, but as the game developed, I saw a general improvment in the overall quality of the online pilots, especially once I became a trainer. When I first became a trainer, I spent probably 80-90% of my time training guys who were RAW, and I mean mean RAW. There were folks where I would literally put my plane on auto-trim and let em empty there guns at me, and I wouldn't take any damage. But that changed. By the time I retired from the WB training corps, I spent 70-80% of my time teaching more advanced subjects. Clearly, the community had matured significantly. I felt this not only in the Training Arena, but in the MA as well. It became harder and harder to score well as the community matured and gained experience.
I feel this same thing in AH. I sense that the average experience of the pilots here is quite high. Couple this with the fact that balanced fights can be hard to come by in the arena and it can seem an unfriendly place to newbies, particularly when some of the more well-know "Shmack talkers" talk shamck to a guy who may be totally clueless, but is trying to learn.
I'd love to see the stats on the guys who are leaving quickly from the game. My sense is that they are getting PASTED, and after their 2 free weeks, figure it's not worth being a target drone for $30/mo.
What's the solution? Well, some of the things that HT is putting in MIGHT encourage some of these folks to stay, but it won't make up for the baby seal clubbings really. The only thing I can really think of, is to establish a "newbie" arena that is available FREE for 90 days from the opening of the account. This arena would be inaccessable after 90 days. In addition, I'd start the the 2 week clock on the main arena after the first time a flyer enters it. Add appropraite dialogues when enetering to make it clear that the MA is available for only 2 weeks form the time you first enter to avoid confusion. Further, I'd staff the newbie arena with a couple trainers to provide some leadership, answer questions, whatever. Also, limit the newbie arena to 2 sides (and maybe a smaller plane set?) to help focus things.
My hope would be that this arena would let the newbies get their feet wet, without being subjected to the utter shellacking they would get in the MA. 90 days is a MUCH more reasonable time to figure out the basics of flying a WWII plane than 2 weeks. Heck, when I joined WB, it took two weeks to figure out what that loud buzzing was! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) Thankfully, I got into WB when it was in open beta, so I had plenty of "free" time to get comfy before plunking down my Credit Card.
Vila
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Many of us were 'training' other newbie pilots before the training corp was even active in WB's. For instance, in VF-101 Grim Reapers, AC was our CO, however, he pointed the new members to my door, which I spent many-a-hour training newbies that had little or no flight sim experience as Vila mentioned above. Some had experience, EMAN, SWIT, a few others.
While a trainer in AH, I noticed that most wanted to know the quirks of certain A/C type, I don't believe I ever had a brand spanking new pilot to online sims in my stint.
Concur with ya Vila.
[This message has been edited by Ripsnort (edited 09-06-2000).]
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Again - what vila said.
As a matter of fact, AH is more expensive for me than WB was during last months I was flying it. I don't like shedload of things in AH but on the immersion front (IMHO) it's way superior to WB and I can also see it moving, developing, trying things - I'd like to think that I'm supporting something alive with my $$.
WB (IMHO again) is dead - it hasn't changed in over a year. When WBIII comes out we'll see if there was something behind claims of the development team. For the time being AH is not standing still either.
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lynx
13 Sqn RAF
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Revvin: You are the LAST person to talk about "rationality."
LOL whats up Cabby? not got the other cheerleaders from AGW with you? you lurk here like some bunny boiling stalker waiting to jump on anyone who dares critisise WB. WB and AH are bloody games for crying out loud so lets drop the cult worship?
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It just dawned on me that alot may stay in their existing software due to comfort zones, ego's, and noterieity(sp). I.E., they'd have to learn the in's and outs of a new flight sim, as well as new keyboard commands. That means that they may get shot down more often than in exiting flight sims they fly. Pride is a tough thing to swallow for those with mega-doses of testosterone. And, since AH is made up of several communities, they may not be recognized by all when they log in, again, a 'pride' factor. Most of this behavior takes place at a subliminal level, so they can't even self evaluate their intentions when trying something new, they get disgusted easy, find petty excuses of the shortcomings ' and move on.
Just ramblin' here I guess, I work with so many that hate new technology in the work place, and something new requires a learning curve, something alot of folks prefer not to do.
[This message has been edited by Ripsnort (edited 09-06-2000).]
[This message has been edited by Ripsnort (edited 09-06-2000).]
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Like WB, the trainers arent in the right place.
I see some very raw ones in h2h. Often there only message is " Why wont this Fu&*&^% thing quit spinning" and they exit before I can say hit the x key, and lets talk about it.
People are often shy when they are new, but dont want to admit they need help. So they get there backs up instead. A trainer in an H2H arena, called OPEN TRAINING might be a welcome mat for this game.
I do what I can for them. And I have thought about doing it myself. But lets face it. Would you want someone like me training you (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)?
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If you really want to compare AH to WB's, wouldn't be more proper to compare AH to what WB's was when it was one year old?
Of course WB's has more features....it had like a 5 year head start.
Of course AH has more development....it is not as "finished" a product.
I personally don't remember Version 1 of WB's because I didn't even own a computer at that time. However, I am willing to bet it was much like AH is today, only with mid-90's graphics.
The real question is: DO you prefer to play a "finished" game, or one which is constantly being changed and modified?
ALso: Version 4 of AirWarrior is in the works. It will be interesting to see if Version 4 brings AirWarrior (world's first online flight sim) back up to par with its competition
J_A_B
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Hmm, High turn over because of price? nah,
probably for the reason Wert and I no longer show up, It's gotten too damn ugly to have a good time, between the screamers,ranters,holier than thou's,DOODZ,and every other form of lowlife
(oh yes the high price does keep out the POORER riffraff)
It just isn't fun to be here, ya could drop the price to $1 a month, and it wouldn't change that fact.
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pzvg- "5 years and I still can't shoot"
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PZ, that's what .SQUELCH 1 is for! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Hmmmm...
Anyone consider that no matter what. The highest standard only remains that for a brief period of time. The quality standards of the consumer have gone up. The bar has been raised by the very product you have just produced.
Now....
That product becomes the stairway to the next greatest product and the consumer will not be satisfied for long.
Just a thought! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Mino
The Wrecking Crew
"hehehe...I like this thread squealing Bastids!"
SOB
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What I find amusing is that most of the biggest anti-AH'ers were not even in WB(CK) Beta, but came to WB's after V1.11. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Dang Rip1 you had to mention Version 1.11.
In my opinion it was the best release of Warbirds we ever had and the most fun. I really miss that version.
But on this subject, some of the pilots who recently left AH, left for the Axis vs Allied arena feeling it would be more fun. You would have to ask them if it is or not.
Ram1
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Agreed Ram1, V1.11 was a great release, if the not the greatest of WB's.
I've read alot of good and bad about Allied vs. Axis. I think this proves that future online sims (or those existing today) definately need to implement a different type of strategy. I'll bet if Allied vs. Axis were introduced 5 years ago, it may have failed...today it breathes new life into the WB's.
On a side note: For every person that leaves, 2 replace them. I went on vacation for 2 weeks, came back, and have seen alot of new names, some of course are temp. accounts, but its nice to have 100 people in the Main nightly now.
Ram1, is Gigg and Cold Fog (==CF==) still flying over there? if so, tell them Rip says "hello". Thanks! <S>
[This message has been edited by Ripsnort (edited 09-06-2000).]
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I wasnt around when those ver. that were so much fun were out. I just wanted to ask. Did'nt the guns work back then?
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I never had a problem with gunnery in WB's personally, if they changed it, I adjusted.
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1.11 had its shortcomings also EZ, (UFO 38, and stuff) but I agree it was the best fun WB ever offered. I understand 2.5 to have been a great release also, but I was gone by then.
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Fond memories of WB 1.11, it confirmed my addiction to WB, not sure 2.5 was a golden release, was that not the last release by the old ICI team before they left for pastures new, if its the version I'm thinking of thats when it all started going wrong.
In all fairness to the iEN team that took over they had to get 'hands on' with the code and learn it and they did try and create gunnery to how the WB community expected but IMHO they made a big mistake not holding it back until they had the new damage model also and give it a thorough testing as they are seemingly still picking the bugs out of it now from reading AGW.
Perhaps WB2.5 is where they shoulda just shelved WBII and moved rapidly on to WBIII where it seems they will be able to add the things they wanted to all along and be ahead of AH development.
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2.6 was where it went wrong. 2.5 was GREAT.
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2.5 was the last version that HT and I were responsible for. 2.6 was released just prior to the office meltdown that occurred about 6 months after HT and I left. 3.0 was supposed to follow 2.5, which is why we went from 2.1 to 2.5 in version numbers. 2.5 was just an intermediate release to 3.0. Those plans must have changed after we left though.
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Doug "Pyro" Balmos
HiTech Creations
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Why did this thread have to turn into a WB vs AH thread?
I really wish someone would come up with a board where WB and AH people could bash each other and their respective sims.
If I could not afford $30/month for this game, I'm sure I would be asking for the price to be lowered. Since I can afford it, I don't have a problem paying $30/month. It's a lot of fun.
If HTC drops it to $15/month, I'm not going to post "Please raise it back to $30". I'm stupid, but not that stupid. Until then, I'll continue to pay my money to them.
And I have no doubt that the customer base would increase if the price dropped. If HTC wanted to boost their customer base just for the sake of boosting it, I'm sure they would drop the price. I'm sure they have their reasons for charging $30/month.
Fury
[This message has been edited by Fury (edited 09-06-2000).]
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Ah yes 2.6 was where they tried putting new gunnery on the old damage model was it not? we then went through half a dozen patches to sort out this and that during 2.6 that each patch just seemed to pork more than it fixed.
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"I'm sure they have their reasons for charging $30/month."
Roger that. One benefit is it does act a bit like chorine in the gene pool.
-Westy
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Originally posted by Fury:
Why did this thread have to turn into a WB vs AH thread?
It started out as a WB/AH thread to begin with, it didn't 'turn into' one, it began as one. And its been very civil with an exception or two.
I think when you have two products very similiar to one another, it warrants discussion. However, I tried discussing AH on AGW back in January (regarding ground vehicles) and was flamed venomently, so throw civil out the window when trying to compare two similiar products. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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It's just anal Fury posting again. Sorry for my confusion; I re-checked DmnBT's original post and did not see anything about WB mentioned. That's why I got confused when I said it "turned into" a WB vs. AH thread again.
And I agree that pricing (the reason for the first post) warrants discussion. I was referring more to the other posts (AH does not have Mac/various gunnery posts/AH is not substantially better than the competition blah blah blah etc).
Sorry for my rant.
Fury
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This on? *tap* *tap*
<---dodges wet tomatoes with black mold on them
HEY! HEY! Gimme a chance willya????
This has been an interesting thread. Vitriol and all, it really has.
To those of you debating the price:
1) I don't think $30/month is too much to ask for *anyone* to pay for unlimited flight simming and a high-fidelity model.
2) Be careful what you ask for; WB allowed an EZ Mode Arena, subsidized to the tune of $9.95/month splinter the membership, and draw in a whole subclass that value fun WAY over sim fidelity, and it's growing like a cancerous tumor. Keep your standards HIGH, and just accept the fact that you can't have *everybody and their dog* playing, and still have Aces High quality. You just can't. Below a certain $ amount lies base Quake dweebery. This is bad for those who really are dedicated but can't afford $30/month, I know, but there it is.
As to my take on WB vs. AH? Well, I still like WB better, but I'm sure there's some truth to what Ripsnort says about "change vs. ego". However, if I *really* felt AH was flat out superior, I would just take it on the chin and move over, especially at $30/month. Right now, my biggest barring factors are the FM (we'll re-evaluate when 1.4 comes out), the "recruit level" blackouts, the catering to Late War ueberplanes, and the stale Chesspiece arena model. The new terrain editor could change the latter REAL quick, and that's exciting.
But, I agree with many over at WB that still say that AH fell short of the mark when it neglected to do "something wonderful" and change the gameplay. Throw out the rancid Arena concept and start over.
The ground war model...? Uh, no, that wasn't the answer. That's an embarassment, and an insult to high-fidelity simming.
I bet if AH were to up the ante on "how the sim is played", and did it right, whatever that was, then you might have a stampede of ex-WBers coming over here.
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I know no less than six fellows that would fly in AH if they would offer a $10 or $20 a month accounts that would limit the hours. I don't understand why they don't, but there is lots in this world I don't understand. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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We don't price ourselves to try to be exclusionary. We can exclude anybody from the game regardless of where the price point is and we can also exclude anybody by setting our price point high enough. The best price point is dependent not only on how many people we can get signed-up, but also on our per-customer costs. This is something we always have to weigh, and even with the best information it's not easy. Speculating is easy though.
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Doug "Pyro" Balmos
HiTech Creations
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Holy fly'n cow toejam. People with $2500 puters @ home unite!!!!!!!!
I know every month I gotta dig up my belaclava and make a withdrawal from my local Seven-Eleven store to pay this outrages price for AH. HT has been taxing my CC now for the last 6 years how does he do such evil things to me.
A friggin dollar a day!!!!
[This message has been edited by Torque (edited 09-06-2000).]
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your right dmdbt, you aren't a marketing expert (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Im not sure he is that far off. A little bit ezmode, sounds like a little bit pregnent to me. Not possibile.
Im not a snob about FM. If it goes the arcade route. Fine. But its time to start talking about the going price of an arcade game.
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Heh well said torque (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Now where oh where will I find a dollar a day?
if it ain't worth 30 bucks, don't play, and don't whine.
If it is worth $30, and you pay them, you're entitled to whine about issues other than cost.
I usually tire of sims and games in less than a month. Still flying, since tour 3, and still having fun. Haven't really bought any boxed games since. So, $30 ain't that bad, even though it is much for people with a low income like me. Acceptable bang for the buck (pun not intended) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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StSanta
JG54 "Grünherz"
"If you died a stones throw from your wingie; you did no wrong". - Hangtime
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Nobody is, heheh.
But it is my belief that in a few months there will be four wwii online games charging less than AH. BT and I both believe AH is state of the art. He meant no disrespect by posting this info. Use it or abuse it as ya see fit. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
I'm guessing everyone goes flat rate this year. Let's see who's right next year.
Cya up...Braz
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Roger that. One benefit is it does act a bit like chorine in the gene pool.
-Westy[/B][/QUOTE]
Sure keeps out most of the Gen Balo's huh Westy!
Lars
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Originally posted by easymo:
Like WB, the trainers arent in the right place.
[/B]
People are often shy when they are new, but dont want to admit they need help. So they get there backs up instead. A trainer in an H2H arena, called OPEN TRAINING might be a welcome mat for this game.[/B][/QUOTE]
Why would a rainer show up at H2H?
The Whole ting with Trainers is to get them intrested enough to become paid costumers, right?
Getting them used to the H2H dos´nt do the trick, Im sure.
Go figure when you try to fly with a mouse. It dosent help much to train a guy and send him to the MA, with that kind of gear.
Crabofix
Aces high training corps.
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HOSSA,
with this talking about the 30$ you forgot something important.
for you americans, 30& are like 30DM for me
in germany. but at the moment (and long before) the dollar went up to 2.22 GERMAN MARKS for one dollar.
so i pay more than 60german marks. so would
you pay 60& a month? sure some will, but most not.
i have a good friend, learning a job, for him, 30$ are nearly 1/10 of his budget.
i knew many more, not able to pay more than
60 german marks a month for "only" an computer "game".
they fly WB2.01 for free on the german server after trying AH.
think about it, 30$ are not everywere 30$
HABICHT
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Hiyas Rip,
No, At first it was squelch ch1, annoying to do but had to.
Then, squelch country ch, 'cuz it got that bad too.
Some of y'all missed the sarcasm part of my missive, so I'll spell it out for you,
I don't see where $30 bucks a month will keep the trash out, (No I'm not arguing for lower rate, that's not the frigging issue)
I see lot's of foul-mouthed,ill tempered,lord-god-commander-I-can't-even-fit-in-the-cockpit-of-a-Bf109-but-I'll-tell-you-how-to-fly-it,quakedweebs,and just plain people desperately in need of either Prozac or an arnoldkicking,(take your pick)
My point being, why in the world would I consider that fun at anyprice?
Computer AI may not be the best opponent I've ever faced, but at least it doesn't turn into an unsupervised 14 year old when it loses(or wins,for that matter)
HTC needs to expand it's customer base, period. In the business world that's known as the SUCCESSFULL business model.
But it becomes rather a large stretch of the imagination to see new folks coming into the game, and deciding they like being derided,insulted and generally abused,
I don't think there are enough masochists to significantly expand the game.
(Shutting up and going back to RL, why I come here is beyond me, must be a masochist)
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pzvg- "5 years and I still can't shoot"
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...as well as the Rags, Zazen and the Ole(illiterate)Onz types !!!! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
On another, more serious note; I think those who feel that "WWII Online" will be the hard core realism mecca are really] setting themselves for a major fall. Locically, just think about it. The numebrs needed to make that place a persistant world will require that the sim not be geared tyowards the 20% who are hard core junkies. I predict that soon after WWII Online goes into open beta that there will be added more options to automate vehicle/aircraft functions than Aces High does (and will have). Otherwise it'll remain a 100-200 player online at any one momnet type of game. They'll never win over the AW, FA-II, WBN's "ACA" or other "easy mode" games. And numbers are what WWII Online will desperately need. Even if most players dumped AH and WB's for the skies of WWII Online there aren't nearly enough numbers (heck add in AW's and FA-II miniscule "full realism" numbers to the equation) there to man the skies on a steady basis at all.
-Westy
[This message has been edited by Westy (edited 09-07-2000).]
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Stig,
Just to clarify, I'm NOT suggesting an EZ mode arena. I'm suggesting a NEWBIE arena, where only new accounts can fly. It would have all the same Flight Models, etc of the main. It would be a place where new guys could go to get used to flying around and shooting at stuff, while not being easy meat for the hot-shots in the main.
My feeling is that the expereince level of the dedicated online simmers is so high, that only the most ardent newbies have the patience to stick out the baby seal clubbings until they can hold their own.
We need a way to get these folks into hard-core simming, WITHOUT comprimising the quality of the sim. One way to do it is let them build a little experience WITHOUT getting whacked as soon as they enter a fight.
Some low-lifes might create a new account just to hunt in the Newbie Arena, but that would be about the most pathetic thing anyone could do (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif).
Vila
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Gotcha, vila. That's a good idea, and precisely where Warbirds f***ed up.
First, they created the EZ Mode with the misguided notion that making it easier to fly initially would NOT introduce a lot of bad habits and in fact make it *harder* to fly Full Realism Mode.
Then, they subsidized it, lowballing their own "regular" price and created the ACA arena. No incentive to go anywhere else. No time limit. No "path" upward to Real Mode. Now they've got a foul-smelling subclass of Quakebirders taking up server space (sometimes more of them than are in the other full boat arenas) at a measly $9.95 a month.
THEN, the real backbreaker, they allowed EZ Mode to be flown mixed with Real Mode in the Main Arena!!!! Once that cat was let out of the bag, the entire face of the "Top Pilots" list changed, as many "hot sticks" were exposed for the EZ Mode Dweebs they are. But, in a blow to the sim, when EZ Mode was outlawed in the Main, a whole bunch just disappeared into the ACA, with their bad habits and dweebish ways, taking a lot of $2/hr revenue with them.
Pyro, if you're listening, be careful with features that dumb down your sim to "make it easy" for Quakebirders to enter and drag things down to their level.
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You want to look how far quakebirders can drag a game down? look to another $9.95 all you can eat one, that now has runway drag races and parachute landing contests in place of attempted historical events. Where the highest art form is the air-air rocket kill or chute ram (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif) ::sigh::
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Wonder which one that is. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Stiglr;
Be careful. Remember that it is all relative. The boundaries of each game must be learned and pushed. EZ-Mode, AirQuake and Hardcore can each be relative, but only onto themselves and for each individual player.
Consider playing socker, but with different size playing fields, larger nets and less restrictive rules etc... No matter what field you play on, the game is the same to each respective player at that level. Each player learns the finasse of the game and has pride in their ability.
The game only changes in your perspective if you move to the next harder playing field. Your point of reference has changed, but the actual game has not.
Before you moved to that harder playing field, were you only a "QuakeSocker Player"?
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Mino
The Wrecking Crew
"hehehe...I like this thread squealing Bastids!"
SOB
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Hmmm...
I definitely think that this game is worth more than 10 bucks... obviously - I'm paying 30 for it...
However... Our squadron just came over from FA. If it were not for the price of AH, every single member of my squadron would have jumped at it, and we would have brought a lot of friends from other FA squadrons with us.
Perhaps 15 or 20 would be a more reasonable amount? Keep out the casuals, but make the game accessible for some of the best flyers around who just might not have that kind of money to spend every month.
just my 2c... or is it 2995c?
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--------
LJK Kratzer
Geschwader Kommodore, LuftJägerKorps
www.luftjagerkorps.com (http://www.luftjagerkorps.com/)
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Jeez....
All this talk about nothing. Let's really look at it-not from MY SIM AW3.....(I have WB on the HD, but never flew it on-line) Did Closed Beta Testing for AW3, before the release. Major Erection-back then. WOW 3D.
The topic and point of this is purely math and stats. Let's have an example.
SAMPLE ONLY
Payroll and Taxes. (assuming HTC pays their employees, and the taxes, and benefits)
6 People @ $40,000.00 per year each. Your area may be higher or lower...just a figure.
6 x $40,000.00 = $240,000.00 per year.
Approx 14% for Employer contributions....Soc Security (7%), Unemployment Taxes (2-3%), Workmans Comp....(3 to 10%) etc.,
$240,000 x 14% = $33,600.
Payroll/People Costs: $273,600.00
Rent Lets make it easy.
$1,500.00 mo. x 12 months = $18,000.00
Telephone(s) Business lines are prolly $50.00 a month each. Lets say 3 lines and a dedicated fax.
4 x $50.00 = $200.00
$200.00 x 12 months = $2,400.00
Internet Connections T1
A single T1 Equipment and Installation =$3,000.00
Then the monthly cost is approx $3,000.00 (this figure from my MCSE Net Essentials book) May be higher or lower.
12 x 3,000.00 = $36,000 + install and Equip $3,000.00
$36,000.00 + 3,000.00 = $39,000.00
(does not include any service contract)
MISC.
Insurance on the business and contents. ?
lets say $10,000 a year.
Servers ?
Routers ?
Desktops ?
Laptops ?
Software ?
Cabling ?
Go ahead and put any number where a ? mark appears.
I will add my total, for the figures I entered, for an annual budget.
TOTAL not including MISC.,
$343,000.00.
Divide $343,000.00 by $30.00 =
11,433 NEEDED paying customers.
So how many more folks do we need to make payroll and expenses this month. ??
I have owned and operated my own business, and nothing is free! Pay the $30.00 and if you can't, don't. Don't berate the folks who are trying to make a go of it, and don't ask them to give away the business. The only thing we will be left with is a memory.
Nuff Said.
K-KEN
http://www.cutthroats.com/ (http://www.cutthroats.com/)
(http://www.cutthroats.com/art/buttons/on_patch8Xs.gif)
http://www.neo-meme.com/coyote.html#COYOTE (http://www.neo-meme.com/coyote.html#COYOTE)
Hi my name is Ken, I have a drinking problem !!! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
[This message has been edited by K-KEN (edited 09-07-2000).]
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getting back to the question of how to get new players into the game & make them feel welcome, instead of "Hi, BOOM, you're dead. Please try again."
Tuff to say, as I'm sure HT would agree. AH has a very difficult learning curve.
When I first tried flyin online, I, like most of you probably, skipped right past whatever training arena (or equivalent). I wanted to play NOW. Not spend hours toolin around some school, that tried to teach me, in some exceedingly boring manner, how to take off, land, fire my guns, etc. The only prob. with this is that it is absolutely neccessary with advanced flight sim/games like AH and, yes, WB. Mandatory training periods won't work & I don't think altered flight models are a good idea either. It's too easy to get used to an EZ model & want to stay there, therefore getting fed up with the real flight model & not wanting to play anymore.
One thing I think would help (oh geez, where did I leave that flame-retardant jumpsuit):
It would mean more work for HTC guys, sorry, but, a complete downloadable, printable manual. The tiny control & dot command manuals are not sufficient for most who have played for a few months, not to mention total newbies. A nice big "For the new user" section could easily give step by step directions for taking off, landing, why you stall right away, stuff like that.
Everybody that has had to try to remember the reams of stuff in the multiple page help file that exists now on the website or bug somebody while flyin for particular info prob. knows what I mean. Even including sections on things I see asked a lot on this BBS, like: bomb load to take out certain targs or effects of taking out strat targs. on reset times wouldn't hurt either. (Sorry HT, didn't mean to suggest something that would increase your workload, but, well, I think it's something that's overdue).
As far as the TA goes, I haven't seen anybody in there hunting newbies like hobbled cows. On no occasion have I seen somebody ignore a request for help from anybody in TA. Even as poorly skilled as I am, if nobody else is there to help that is more qualified, I will gladly try to help, as patiently as a 2-year old's mother. I haven't once seen anybody act differently in TA. But, yes, it is hard to get them to go there. I didn't try the TA til after my 2 weeks was up, I go there often now, because I'll often find good trainers & sometimes seasoned vets like citabria to fly against. It's a damned good way to learn. I bug guys all the time for info on how they just did that particular manuever without the hassles involved in MA.
I seem to have lost my train of thought...
Oh yeah, more comprehensive DLable manual. Think it would be a good idea (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
- kidcol2 -
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KKEN -
That should be $360 per customer since all you costs are on an annual basis. So that would be less than 1000 paying customers per year (if all of your figures were right).
By the way, if these talented folks are only getting $40K a year, please send your resumes to me. I am sure I can put you to work in sunny Syracuse, NY. (No, Hitech - I really am not trying to recruit your talent away (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif))
Sour
[This message has been edited by sourkraut (edited 09-07-2000).]
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Kidcol, under LINKS, DOWNLOADS, theres a file called AHINFO.ZIP. Its a manual for getting one up to speed on keyboard commands,view system, etc. It does NOT cover flight dynamics, etc. as that would require too lengthy of format.
Regards,
Ripsnort
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Ripsnort(-rip1-)
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Always thought (and I mentioned it a few times) that one idea would be an easy/relaxed guppy pool where upon after XXXXX amount of points are accumulated or at the end of a 30,60 or 90 day period you then have to move up to where the big fish swim.
How much easier could it get for them then? There would be the free "two week, no obligation" trial which segwayds into, say, a $10/mo guppy try out period before finaly you end up having to anty up the $30 cod for the big boys arena?
-Westy
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DAGO well said! Let me offer my humble opinion also. I've been an on-line simmer a long time....mostly Air Warrior, a very little WB and now AH. First WB, nice game, not as well done as AH.as a matter of fact just by seing PYRO and HT on-line one can see the effort put forth to make and continue to make AH worth every penny of 30 american dollars. Now Air Warrior, if one likes a first person shooter, a video game, and you think 30 dollars is to much, go there! <G> AW can in no way compare in quality to AH. For the longtime online flight simmer AH is the way to go IMHO (in my humble opinion) remember Air warrior is now owned by EA and AW has stagnated over the last almost 4 years! EA is a large Corp. and sometimes they see things one way, theirs. The short time I've been in AH I've seen more input from the players expressed to HT and Pyro personnaly and on-line then I saw input from the player to Kesmais AW, input for years was ignored by Kesmai, sort of take what we give you and like it! Believe me, take it from an old online flight simmer, nothing can compare or even comes close in quality, the effort to upgrade the game and keep it at this high standard, and the input from the players directly to HT and Pyro instead of E-Mailing the talking heads that represent EA etc. I know of at least 20 AW players that have come here in the last month, and plan to make this our home. To paraphrase a line from Field of Dreams "If you build it, they will come". The word is spreading in the AW community about AH, some are coming, most are staying, lets get the word out! I've flown them all and this believe me is the best value for the quality I've seen to date for on-line flight Sims!
Hajo Out <G>
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And Another Thing! Cripes you're whining about paying 30 bucks??? LOL first off if you're an online flight simmer with any dedication ya gots a PC with a vid card that cost 300 bucks new, or upgraded, ya have a joystick that ya paid over 60 dollars for, you also have rudder pedals that cost at least 40 bucks, and if you're like me ya have a pro throttle that whacked ya close to 100 bucks! Hmmmm now go play one of those 9.99 version online flight sims.....don't make sense do it? <G> All that money for equipment to play a first person shooter <G>
OK.....on the training part....don't remember who said offer training arena with plane sets etc, and about newbies being discouraged about getting killed for 30 bucks....good points! Give'em newbie arena for 30 days, free with trainers on-site! Ya gots ta learn to fly without kiling yourself before worrying about killing the enemy! training and newbie arena very very good idea. Hell even air warrior offers training arenas, you could fly there to a certain point and ya got booted into the bigtime! Maybe newbie arena with trainers the way to go to keep the players that are new to online flight sims. I remember when I was new to AW....was ugly, not much better now as a matter of fact, but at least I know which button to start the engine <G> still looking for button to raise the landing gear....Also post when downloading the game to: PLEASE DOWNLOAD AND PRINT THE AH INFO FILE FOR KEYBOARD COMMANDS AND CONTROLS!
Hajo....longwinded as usual <G>
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Nice Catch..absolutely right, had to run to work for a few hours and rushed that calculation. Is there 1,000 players, do they make that, we don't know. But the topic did ask for a price cut....and at $10.00 a month, triple the paperwork, but don't increase sales. Not feasable. Thanks for the correction...Sour.
Originally posted by sourkraut:
KKEN -
That should be $360 per customer since all you costs are on an annual basis. So that would be less than 1000 paying customers per year (if all of your figures were right).
By the way, if these talented folks are only getting $40K a year, please send your resumes to me. I am sure I can put you to work in sunny Syracuse, NY. (No, Hitech - I really am not trying to recruit your talent away (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif))
Sour
[This message has been edited by sourkraut (edited 09-07-2000).]
K-KEN
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Minotaur, I hear what you're saying, but I can't agree with it.
To use your analogy of soccer or sports, I give you "Arena" soccer or Arena football. Yeah, sure, for beer & grins I suppose they're ok, but compared to the games they were bastardized from, they're really stupid. (Of course, ANY sport is "stupid" when you get down to it; maybe that's not a good analogy).
In our case, flight sims, either we strive for high fidelity or we don't. You cannot have a game "for the masses" and have high fidelity. You just can't. Because the lowest common denominator is always full of shortcuts, compromises and is of low quality. None of these has any place in a high-fidelity sim, sport, whatever.
This is why HTC and iEN, in their own ways, are struggling with these pricing issues. There are big economic forces forcing and pressuring certain decisions (they gotta pay the rent and gotta make money), but down that path lies Quakebirding, lower fidelity modelling, and becoming the very type of "game" that AH (or WB) is trying to be a better alternative than.
From my perch, you GOTTA have premium pricing (not gonna say where that pricepoint is, but it's higher than $9.95 a month, and $2/hour is really pushing the limits of what you can expect folks to pay), and you gotta stick to your guns, fidelity wise. And you gotta figure out how to make the niche profitable, because an AH or a WB is NEVER, EVER going to draw the same numbers as a FA or Quake. But, for sure, you can get a diehard audience that is much more dedicated than what you'll find on a Quake server.
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Ya know, we all seek the same things. Cheap is Good. But the sale price usually results in "backorder" or "Out of stock". AH is a premium game/SIM, and we need to support it-no matter what. Get friends in on it. It will help.
Ken
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Think About it How Many logger's log on Every Day or Every Month Get Canculator Add the Price 30xHow many User's hehe Get you Lot's of Money in your Pocket and it take's 30$only to make a Stupid B-17 and many other plane's 30$-How Many user=Total Stinking Rich
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DmdBT made a point that only about a third of the free trials are converted to full subscriptions. His suggestion to reduce the cost to $10 ($9.95) wont make HTC any more money yet will have additional costs to HTC.
Heres how I see it:
If I triple the number of people who are paying subscribers yet decrease the revenue generated by 2/3'rds ($30 to $10) HTC isnt making any more money but they are now forced to either increase available bandwidth to support 3 times as many concurrent connection or leave bandwidth as it is and hope for the best.
As it is, I see enough warps at peak times to claim my high and mighty role as premium subscriber and say, "F*ck the peons, if they cant afford it, leave em out!"
There are already enough mouths in the MA as it is, lets not make it affordable to those prepubescent, snot-nosed teen-punk, kEwLDoOd, pilot-wannabee's.
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
-Ding
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As you can see AH is only making 3 or two Plane's on Every UPDate That's not good Enuff Were is the B-24 that was made when the B-17 Came out ?
And Why is The Download Process Slow
<edit> don't use extraneous characters in your posts as it makes it unreadable for most people. -Pyro
[This message has been edited by Pyro (edited 09-08-2000).]
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Too anyone who thinks the amount you charge for a game determines the quality (define that, will ya) of the people in said game, you are F*CKED UP, probably racist and sexist too. You people make me sick...
The reason we have a more "mature" community is simple. A game like AH appeals to us more. Quakers couldn't sit in a buff with no action for 1/2 an hour. Is $30 an hour too much, yeah I think it is, but I'll pay it to support the best flight sim programmers ever, and hopefully when HTC is established financially, they'll lower it.
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Stilgr;
Thanks for the response, but sorry I did not read it.
Somehow this thread grew to be 8 feet wide. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
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Mino
The Wrecking Crew
"My Motto: Just have fun!!!! "
Swager
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Originally posted by BUG_EAF322:
Yep it's worth 30 dollar a month but younger members will not have a creditcard unfortunally.
Yes, I have to say, as one of the "younger members" that this is frustrating when the product in question is so excellent. H2H can only go so far. In a way though, it isn't that bad; most of the "younger members" (why the quotes?) in this game, as in many, are idiots (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif). Sorry, just an observation that I've been forced to make.
Anyway, as for acredit card, if I ever decide to get one, will I use it to pay for AH? HELL YES!!!
AH would be the ONLY reason.
S!
Ispar
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"If I told you that there were a squadron of fighters waiting to pounce the moment you fired at me, would you believe me?"
"No."
"Er... how about just one then?"
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armor3=maximus? I get this weird feeling.. the stench is quite similar.
The way I see it is that there are much, much more people being kept out of AH because of its price tag than the previous mentioned "we charge $30 we get 1 person, we charge $10 we will get 3 instead of 1" train of thought.
I KNOW 12 people in my neighborhood that would be in AH. 12! And god knows how many other computer gamers in my college will sign up once my grades start to drop and they ask me why *G* (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) . Add that to the people THEY and my 12 neighbors know... its a chain reaction. Cost to accomodate the bandwith for new players... hmmm... well, they WILL have to do that ANYWAY if their plan IS to increase the player base eh? Ask yourselves how many people YOU personally can bring into AH. Count them up.