Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: AKSWulfe on July 08, 2002, 02:16:48 PM
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I'm not sure if this qualifies as a hammerhead, but I know several people have problems getting the plane to nose over when vertical and stall speeds by using solely rudder...
so I thought I'd throw technique out for anyone who wants to use it (does work VERY well in combat)...
Go into a vertical climb (straight up, using your view over your wings to keep you on track), and hold your plane in the vertical by using smooth control inputs (too harsh and you'll stall out), when you reach the apex of your move (roughly 100-120MPH), chop throttle to 0%. Still vertical, push the rudder into full deflection going the direction your plane torques on take off, then gun the throttle all the way to 100% and use your ailerons as need be to hold your plane the same way it was when you went into this manuever. (ie: you want to depart the same direction you entered)
If you gun the throttle too fast, it won't work. If you do it in the wrong direction, it won't work. After 3 or 4 tries offline, however, you should have it.
It works very well for rope a dopes.
-SW
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According to a VERY experienced RL aerobatic pilot, the AH flight model does not allow an actual hammerhead stall to happen.
Source: Screaming Eagle (se)
Qualifications to make this statement:
(taken from his pilot profile on the 412th Roster Page)
Retired with all my ratings land & sea, 5000hrs.
Singles / twins /sea & land, owned my Pitts S1 Special, now also in retirement, did Acro compition & air shows around the Illinois area, also participated in Oshkosh. Presently hold the Canadian Sportsman category championship as a US citizen.
Flying FM in AH is more difficult than real life :)
You can get close to a hammerhead, but not really do it.
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cc Midnight, a hammerhead actually involves a tail slide back down a couple hundred feet and the plane flipping nose down, right?
This is just a way to "force it" into the game.
-SW
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The new (white) Zero hammerheads very nicly to the right, almost effortlessly. Be a good vehicle to practice with.:)
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Your right Wulfe :)
Some planes will do this better than others also.
It can "almost" be done in a P-51.
I would bet this is near impossible to force in an N1K2, better known as "the plane that won't stall" :rolleyes:
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get a P38
suckers
:cool:
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190s wont tail slide nor will 109s they lose all control input and lazily fall over. Once they begin to fall you get control back.
Il2 take an a5 vert it will tail slide awesome.
I fly with out combat trim and a tail slides just dont happen.
You can get your wing over fast enough so its really np.
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You dont need to do all that crap if you fly a P-38L
It will do hammerheads like on autopilot.
I do em well, remember the old ArtLaws flipping out about it.
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Originally posted by Midnight
According to a VERY experienced RL aerobatic pilot, the AH flight model does not allow an actual hammerhead stall to happen.
This is 100% true.
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"a hammerhead actually involves a tail slide back down a couple hundred feet and the plane flipping nose down, right? "
Nope. In most aerobatics planes, you start the turn at around 50 knots. The idea is to pivot around the wingtip.
A classic tailslide is sliding down and then flipping the nose down.
The reason AH appears not to allow 'proper' hammerhead turns, is the seemingly lack of slipstream over the rudder.
Closing the throttle should make it harder, not easier to do.
(although reducing throttle a tad, should help countering torque)
Daff
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I can do hammerheads in the tiffie just fine, and tailslides in the tiffie fine too. Although I do wonder if its use of engine torque more than rudder input?
The 190s can tailslide but become extremely unstable and twitchy in the move, so its usually very hard to complete. La5s are also the same.
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I should of said that in my reply tailslides and hammerheads arent the same as daff has said
Hammerhead (http://www.lemsko.de/3d/ACM/hammer.ram)
The video above is from Lem's Aerodrome (http://www.lemsko.de/3d/ACM/index.htm)
for a good hammerhead (its more of a wingover then a hammerhead) @ 175 I slowly push my rudder left and use ailerons to stay in plane.
Tail slides however just dont happen for me in ah. I hold completely verticle power on my plane lazily falls over @ 0 speed and flutters down. Its easy to recover. Same with throttle zeroed and eng off. I dont fly the typh so I dunno.
Heres what my ah hammerhead resembles
Wingover (http://www.lemsko.de/3d/ACM/wingover.ram)
Tailslides in il2 work well hammerheads/wingovers are a bit
tougher.
EDIT I fly 190s
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Originally posted by Animal
You dont need to do all that crap if you fly a P-38L
It will do hammerheads like on autopilot.
I do em well, remember the old ArtLaws flipping out about it.
There is also a neat effect when you momentarily reduce power to one engine. Don't know if it has a name but it does seem point the nose straight down faster. Still practicing it, but when it works it works great.
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what all the commotion about :confused:
my jug does hammerheads just fine, do them all the time :D
I hammerhead by holding the rudder hard over at about 50-100ias and using the ailerons to follow through, while looking out the side and front views to ensure a smooth 180 while in the 90 degree verticle plane of attack.
In a jug you can also fall back on the tail ina verticle stall, then hard rudder over to flip the nose toward the ground. there's an art to this last one as you can hold the top too long with the wrong airleron movements and find yourself in a flat spin.
practice practice practice
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I'm not sure exactly what they are supposed to look like, but are any of these a hammerhead?
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Originally posted by Daff
"a hammerhead actually involves a tail slide back down a couple hundred feet and the plane flipping nose down, right? "
Nope. In most aerobatics planes, you start the turn at around 50 knots. The idea is to pivot around the wingtip.
Daff
I agree. Never done aerobatics in real life (not even in my bipe) but flew the heck out of an old program called "Flight Unlimited". One of the cool features of FU was you could have an instructor show you how to fly the aerobatic maneuvers, then critique you on your own attempts. No tail slide in a hammerhead. In a "tail slide", however, the recovery involves the nose of the plane finally flipping to straight down, and you exit the maneuver in the opposite direction you started it in.
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There's a person that fly's Warbirds that use that technic when flying and fighting the p38 Turbot and he does this very well.
He uses it to turn itddddddddddddddddddddddddddd ddddd like a banshee in heat. He gets that p38 to turn very tight tighter than if you didn't it.
FM in Warbirds and AH are very similar.
I've tried this technic but my fingers and brain aren't fast enough I also forget the hit all engine toggle and throttle the wrong engine at the wrong time. This technic would take me a while to learn to do correctly.
I guess if you set up a couple of keys or joystick buttons in the right place it could be done.
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Zip file is too big.... how can I reduce the size?
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Don't think my other link worked, ill try winzip file...
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hammerheads/wingovers are relatively easy. What sw mentioned about tail sliding is not a hammerhead. Tail slides atleast in the planes I tried are impossible in AH.
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Originally posted by AKSWulfe
cc Midnight, a hammerhead actually involves a tail slide back down a couple hundred feet and the plane flipping nose down, right?
This is just a way to "force it" into the game.
-SW
Isn't that a tail stall?
ack-ack
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Originally posted by Midnight
Your right Wulfe :)
Some planes will do this better than others also.
It can "almost" be done in a P-51.
I would bet this is near impossible to force in an N1K2, better known as "the plane that won't stall" :rolleyes:
P-38L is probably the best plane to practice it in since you don't have to worry about engine torque.
Ack-Ack
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The plane never stalls in a hammerhead turn, which is why the british term 'stall turn' is actually incorrect. (But it wont stop me from preferring that term:D)
Daff
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Take a Typhoon up and try it (go right). :D
Daff, a 'stall turn' in FAI is precisely that. The a/c does not stall, but rotates smoothly, and solely in the yaw axis. The inboard wing should transcribe a half-circle about one-half wingspan. So,...
There was a movement in some of the aerobatic arenas to remove hammerhead type moves and replace them with the humpty-bump. If, you've ever watched the Unlimited classes, you know that manuevers do tend to be violently aggressive, but the tamer sport classes differ.
Anyway, the humpty-bump, stall turn, and split ess (I missed a few) are all elementary manuevers, and yet are 'turn-arounds' in the upper classes (not the focus of attention, yet often critical for score). The humpty-bump, immelmann, and 1-1/2 turn spin are higher 'K' factor and are not considered elementary (again, I missed a few).
I have yet to see anyone properly execute a double-immelmann. :D I'll film one after the film player is fixed.
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Originally posted by Griego
There's a person that fly's Warbirds that use that technic when flying and fighting the p38 Turbot and he does this very well.
He uses it to turn itddddddddddddddddddddddddddd ddddd like a banshee in heat. He gets that p38 to turn very tight tighter than if you didn't it.
FM in Warbirds and AH are very similar.
I've tried this technic but my fingers and brain aren't fast enough I also forget the hit all engine toggle and throttle the wrong engine at the wrong time. This technic would take me a while to learn to do correctly.
I guess if you set up a couple of keys or joystick buttons in the right place it could be done.
I managed to get a dual throttle hooked up and of late have been using it more. I don't think I could do it with keyboard at all (would have to look away from screen and that is death for sure).
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Just a side note of history....
The manuver herein described as a "Hammerhead" was actually what was referred to in WW1 as an "Immelman".
Somewhere during the course of events the original "Immelman" manuver became the following:
pull back on the stick (as in a loop) then when you're at the top of the loop, aileron/roll over and continue in the oposite direction. Good for attacking higher plane hdg in opposite direction.
You will tranfer E for altitude and will only have enough time for a snap-shot, but that's all you need in some instances.
I don't have the historical references in front of me to know when or how this name/manuver change occurred. Does anyone else have information to verify this?
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What Daff said: thats the way you should do a real hammerhead.
I did many hammerheads some times ago in a CAP10 aerobatic trainer. However, I am not able to do it in AcesHigh.
You know, IIRC AirWarrior let you do nice hammerheads. Go figure ;)
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Nomde, my impression was that the original immelman, was more of a wingover.
Gatt, had a flight in a Cap10 a couple of weeks ago..very nice plane :). (Didnt do any stall turns, though).
Daff
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and i thought i was the only one that had this problem in AH..
my hammer heads look more like a wallow and then a sorta out of control stall thing. no matter what air speed i start the manuver.
where i come from a hammer head is to hang the bird on its prop. then just as it tail slides a bit, then kick rudder to rotate the AC on its yaw axis. it would be super useful if it could be done without the nasty habit of wallowing around then trying to recover the dang thing.
I have been trying to do this off line almost every dayfor months. and if i feel froggy i have tried it online only to stall out and take a chance on eatting moocho lead
if some of you all that can do this in AH would like to film it and post it that would be kick ass. because for the life of me i cant figger it out.
Btw very cool thread :D
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Does a 110g2 have counter rotating props? Or does it torque a specific way, sorry for such a dweb question.
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Originally posted by Daff
Gatt, had a flight in a Cap10 a couple of weeks ago..very nice plane :). (Didnt do any stall turns, though).
Daff
Hehe I'm currently getting my aerobatic solo in a CAP10B, and it is a bit limited in vertical maneouvers.
She can do Hammerheads... but barely, she lacks the power to do them confidently (180HP).
As of today I have practiced Standard Aileron Rolls, Loops, Spins, Hammerheads, Humpty Bumps, Immelmans, Inverted flight, and that's about it :)
The hardest thing in a CAP10B is to land her :)
Here she is:
(http://www.aeroclub-bs.com/images/avion4.gif)
Daniel
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Originally posted by Fester
Does a 110g2 have counter rotating props? Or does it torque a specific way, sorry for such a dweb question.
Not a dweeb question, and I don't know the answer in AH - but in Warbirds the older 110 didn't counter rotate and the newer 110 did.
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Thanks turbot. Im trying to come up with a way to revers this machine in the vertical very quickly. I can get it around ok now, but not 'fast' Ive got some Ideas that I want to try with throttle management. I 'think' it torques a bit to the right, so that means I should perform the turn to the right... right?
Thanks guys
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Originally posted by Animal
You dont need to do all that crap if you fly a P-38L
It will do hammerheads like on autopilot.
I do em well, remember the old ArtLaws flipping out about it.
Yes, I remember artsie.
My 190a8 got him few times in row with hammer. He obiviously didn't like it.
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I was under the impression that this was a hammerhead turn.
Straight up till about 50ias then full left rudder and right aileron. The stall horn doesnt sound and its more or less in a single plane.
heres the film http://plaza.ufl.edu/shamblin/film14hh.ahf
So is this a hammerhead or a wingover?(http://plaza.ufl.edu/shamblin/hh1.JPG)
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Something that might be of interest to you twin engine flyers without a dual control throttle.
I mapped 2 functions to my stick last night. "Shift-2" and "Shift-E"
Press the first button when entering the verticle and at 120 I chop throttle, this only chops throttle to engine 2. Perform wing over hammerhead whatever to the right then throttle up and hit other button shift-e to give full control back to the engines.
I was hammerheading the 110g2 offline, very responsive. If you dont re engage engine 2 the plane starts this no stall horn cartwheel, very wild ride and very easy to recover from. Lotta rudder control on that one, makes me wish artsie was still around :)
Hope this helps
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throttling will rotate you out of your desired position when you finish the maneuver, In a 109 I just let airspeed drop to 30-40ais and apply enough rudder to bring the nose over 10-15 degrees, cut the throttle down to 5% and she flops over, apply 50% throttle and you can get your heading in sync with your intentions.
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110 doesn't have counter rotating props IIRC
SKurj
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A hammerhead in a 51..with the tail sliding back is not possible but it can be done in 1 of the sims out there since i was reading the combat files back in the day. I dont do ropes too many times or even ever but i have done it before and what happens to my plane(no cutting throttle or engine cutting) is i will use my rudder to twist the plane the other way and it will snap back down and sort of pull up.
When that happens i will have to push down on the stick to regain control of the vertical diving in purpose of a hammerhead. Correct timing is the neccesary. I can see the con pulling up with me. Then with the feel i guess that he has lost alot of E. I Swing her down and by the time im 500 ft away and hes shooting at me for a vertical HO he snaps his plane down and hes ready to die.
So it comes down to practice to actually perfect a good hammerhead, every person has his own way of doing this, even though some peoples seem a lil weird :) .