Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: pasquale on January 29, 2000, 10:50:00 AM
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I hope it does, but I don't think it will.
Just some W.A.G 'es here, but I would say they are in the (low end)ballpark.
6 persons employed=$15,000(6x$2500 which is pretty damn conservative)
Server costs=$5,000(This is a real WAG, and includes line charges and hardware amortization)
So at it's most crude, HTC has a $20,000 per month nut.
$20,000/$29.95=667.78 Paying players(We will call Fallen the .78 of a player).
Anyone want to bet that HTC doesn't get 667 paying players in the first 6 months?
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Hard to say.
One thing is sure. These folks know what they are doing.
Yeager
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Was this how it was back in '95 for them?
I think it was worse then from what I've read and heard.
These guys and gals aren't novices. There is a very large existing customer base to tap from. Folks from Flying Circus/BoB, Fighter Ace 1.5-2, AW people from GameStorm and AOL who charge $2.00 oer/hr for AW3, DoA and WB's...
They're all doing roughly the same thing but with different levels of fidelity and realism. And imho AH is the defacto leader now.
I've even seen references to Aces High in
the game magazines.
If they continue as they have word of mouth will pull in a good amount of people and if they advertise and get the sim out on the magazine CDRoms and hardware bundles then they will pull more folks in.
-Westy
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HTC will make I have met all of them and they are all dedicated to their work. Dont forget they did it before. Aces High will be the best online sim (to me it is allready). I like the way they are adding planes that noone else would try. I think from a comment HT made online the other day they have more then enough players that should stay and pay to pay the bills.
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Tommy (INDIAN) Toon
Cherokee Indian
My Homepage
Where you can find the Key Commands in files for Word6 Wordpad and text mode.
indians Homepage (http://www.geocities.com/~tltoon)
Aces High Word6 and Wordpad Doc's available on my web site.
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If AH does not succeed it will be unfortunate.
I have been totally anti pay to play online sims but, due to the exposure to AH in the free beta arena, I am going to pay for it at least until B17-2 gets here and perhaps, if certain expectations are met, and the $30 spent is not interferring with real life stuff like bills, food, etc will continue to do so.
These HTC guys and gal have, with a less than 6MB program, provided me personally with more online enjoyment than the combined thousands of Mega Bytes contained in CFS, Janes, EAW and SDOhELL.
I am not bashing any of these products, there are elements of all that are great, I am just saying that Aces High, Early 1.0 that it is, has come closest to giving me the best elements of all of them and they are essentially finished products.
AH is not off the pad but the engines are firing up.
Good Luck HTC, and do not expect the check till real close to the deadline.
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Within a year, they will be pushing 1,000 subscribers.
Regards,
Wab
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Wow Pasquale - You fly their sim and see that most everyone here really likes and enjoys it.
You should also allow that the skill required to do all the 3D transformations, lighting angles, distance measurements, gravity, accelleration, drag, lift, etc., probably include at least a little math.
The math you laid out is so trivial compared to that that it is truly laughable. If you think for one moment they haven't come this far and done those calculations to a depth you just might not understand, then I have some real choice swamp land I've been meaning to get rid of, er, sell to someone as wise and deep thinking as yourself. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Guys, I really think all this uninformed speculation is really damaging to the community. If you want to make it tough to attract investors that can finance further expansion and enhancements, go right ahead. But it is self-defeating.
Look a little deeper please and accept that these people have (as outlined above) A) already launched and seen to maturity the best online sim around. B) have the technical skills to better that effort. C) who knows what else they have up their sleeve.
I see this junk on AGW and I see it here and most can tell I am at least a little peeved to see so many working so hard to pull the rug out from under ourselves. These speculations probably won't sway the savvy investor but it can't help. If you have these kinds of concerns, then consider writing to iEN or HTC (or any of the others) directly. But please don't keep this uninformed and ignorant speculation public. It is a waste of time.
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I have FAITH in the HTC team. They did it once.. the can due it again...
NOW..were due I sign up for food stamps...hehehehe
ROCK ON AH!!!
Gorf
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I don`t agree with your speculation a bit! The exodus from Warbirds has begun already and will continue to grow with time,not to mention the many players from FA2 and AW as well. HTC has provided us a fine simulation that gets better every release,at the moment I`m unemployed and money is very tight-but you can bet one way or another I will come up with my $30.00 a month to continue playing after pay to play begins next week.
Morbid said:
Guys, I really think all this uninformed speculation is really damaging to the community.
Well said Morbid,couldn`t agree more.
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JG2 "Richthofen" (http://www.busprod.com/weazel2/)
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What morbid said
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If you think being a great game designer/artist means that you are a great businessman, I have some swamp land to sell to YOU.
This is the same crew that did WB, correct. They then got in so much trouble, even with a large player base, paying per hour, that they had to sell the game.
So do not assume that one thing equals the other or that success is gauranteed.
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Exodus from WarBirds? So tell me why I should leave WarBirds. And...cause these are nice people is not an answer. I like them too. They work and try very hard. I think they have two pluses. The terrain is awesome and their connects seem more solid.
I pay 9.95 in WB's
I get:
58 planes
numerous arenas
5 hours in the Big Show
All the ACA action Combat arena I can play.
All the Dawn of Aces WWI I can play.
If I take Gold or Platinum plan I get it for 1.75/hr or 1.50/hr=20 Hrs.
Where's the deal here?
Too little, too soon, for too much!
I think it boils down to play the game you like the best 1st Then consider value second. But, don't think there will be a mass Exodus from other games! It ain't going to happen. How about The Flying Circus Battle of Britian? It's a contender too you know.
Best of Luck to all
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The trick here, is to use the promise of money to get work out of most of the employees. When money starts to roll in, you lay off all the spendy programmers and farm out your art or redundant code to third world sweat shops... preferably one where the average age is 12 (to keep a fresh perspective). You can effectively cut your costs from 30k/month to about 5 dollars a week.
That enables HT and Pyro to sit back and enjoy a much larger profit margin. I wonder who will be the first to be cut?
On a more serious note, you are a tad bit conservative on your estimates. 6 people employed would have to be a tad bit closer to 4k per... or even higher. Is there any benefits to be paid for? (Can be avoided in previous scenario) Don't forget lease on the office... after all HTs wife isn't going to allow them to use the "spare room" as an office much longer.
Now you are getting an idea what is most important in this buisness. Keep it simple (minimal employees) and keep up costumer relations. These are things iMOL forgot about with Warbirds.
I'm rooting for you guys at HTC. I hope you all make as much this year as I did last year. Though, you must remember, if I do make more than you this year... it is most likely that I worked that much harder.
AKDejaVu
BTW.. for the benifit of some slower readers... I just about put my tongue through my cheek writing this one.
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I unfortunately feel that HTC might have some probs. I have posted time and time again that AH isn't "unique" enough for a lot of users to switch.. i.e. its purty and has a nice FM (albeit a bit too good for most people) and has a simple strategy system.. but that's it. Otherwise the concept of the game is identical to WB.
I reaaaally don't get it. Why make a game that "yes" is fun, but still is exactly the same as someone who already has a strong stance in the market place. Unique stuff to be added (in case anyone is reading) in order of importance:
VEHICLES/Infantry - let us run around (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
strategy - mission planning for vehicles/infantry, more elements such as
plane attrition
sounds - explosions, other planes WHEN your in tower/hq/or just starting plane (let us know there is an outdoor "feeling").
graphics - more clouds (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif), better explosions (HT is working on this I believe anyways)
terrain - water, rivers, cities
weather - clouds (more), rain, snow, NIGHT
Personally I don't think more planes are nearly as important as implementing the above suggestions. These affect the ENTIRE arena and greatly enhance the game for everyone.
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Pasquale, I never said anything of the sort. What I said was that the math is very simple (and they are obviously very capable at it). They (the collective "they" - HTC, iEN, Cornered Rat, etc.) know far better what their initial capitalization is, what their expenses are, what markets they are after, the number of accounts required to be profitable, etc.
They are the only ones who really know what they can pull off, how close they can cut it, etc. Anything we do is simply rumor-mongering and counterproductive. If all the people like you keep posting it is impossible to make a profit - whether it really is or isn't, you do two things - you help to topple the business that they are trying to build and you discourage any others from ever thinking it might be profitable enough to try.
You know what happens in areas where there isn't any money or future? Development gets dropped. As this is a form of recreation that I really enjoy, this hits home.
Now I do not mean to imply that your post would ever be capable of closing the HTC doors. Far from it. But yours and others as you guys keep this up are certainly not helping anything.
What good can come of it? Tell me one thing that is positive from public speculation about the viability (or lack therof) of any company? One thing.... Please. Why do you think it is good to post this junk?
Do you think that your speculation will cause all involved to light the light and realize "Christ I can't make any money at this - Pasquale said so!" and close up shop? Do you think your speculation will cause everyone to realize the doors will close and therefore decide to drop accounts now - because Pasquale said so?
It is just a waste of time and totally counterproductive. Why do you (and other posters like you) keep trying to drag them (the royal "them") down?
If they are going to fail, then they will fail. If they are going to thrive then they will thrive.
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Simple, I post in the hope that they will see the replies, more than my post, and realize that they need to do something other than recreate WB to make this work.
If any foolish post is going to make or break the game/community then they do not have much in the first place do they?
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Originally posted by Morbid:
Pasquale, One thing.... Please. Why do you think it is good to post this junk?
Do you think that your speculation will cause all involved to light the light and realize "Christ I can't make any money at this - Pasquale said so!" and close up shop? Do you think your speculation will cause everyone to realize the doors will close and therefore decide to drop accounts now - because Pasquale said so?
It is just a waste of time and totally counterproductive. Why do you (and other posters like you) keep trying to drag them (the royal "them") down?
If they are going to fail, then they will fail. If they are going to thrive then they will thrive.
Morbid,good post.
My thoughts exactly (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Pasquale - your initial post merely speculated that they would fail. That they wouldn't be covering expenses in 6 months, etc.
What responses did you expect to get? Why did you post in a public forum instead of sharing your great wisdom directly with them in an e-mail?
Your modus operandi is not in any way shape or form helpful. Please enlighten me how you think this stuff can help them or anyone? What do you really hope to accomplish?
Do you really think they didn't think this through? That HTC didn't see everything that happened at ICI/IMOL/iEN and learn from it? Do you think that these people wish to just spend all their money, wherever they got it, to be a flash in the pan?
If you are so concerned with their expenses, I would like to suggest you contact them directly and offer your obviously vast accounting services.
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I would honestly be suprised if even their initial signup isn't a bit more than the guestimated minimum, I'd expect more along the lines of 1k, on initial startup. Also take into account that they obviously are prepared to function without full income stream (see free beta period), and I have no doubt this game will be very successful.
Fatty
(one a them FDBs)
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Morbid-How do you know I didn't(I would not presume to, actually)?
Let's not stray too far from the topic:
Will HTC pull in enough paying customers to break even?
It is obvious that HTC thinks one of 2 things:
1. The game is ready for pay-to-play(Not!)
2. They need money(A given).
WB, in what, 5 years, only managed about 3000 paying accounts, most at minimum rate, and that as the only game in it's league.
HTC needs some good reasons for people to pay. As is, it has none, except for a very small percentage of the total amount of hardcore simmers who fly immense amounts of time.
This small percentage, plus the small percentage of persons who just plain Hate iEN and/or cannot get a good connect do not equal the requisite breakeven point, in my own, uninformed opinion.
I want them to do something different, to build on what they have, to offer something that will make people stand up and say: Damn! Take my money, instead of: Well, this is pretty good, maybe I will wait and see.
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Pasquale, I did not say that you didn't offer your amazing insights. I only suggested that you do.
I do not plan to comment in any way on HTC, iEN, or any of the other's chances, finances, or anything of the sort.
I've said it before and I'll say it again - there is absolutely nothing wrong with discussing pros, cons, and features people would like to see. Your sort of drivel does nothing to help anything and I will no longer post in response to this crap as all it does is keep the mesages at the top of the board.
Actually, maybe that is the best policy - let these dorks wank themselves silly and not respond to their posts. That way they will just drop off the map early. It is quite obvious that you don't get it Pasquale and nothing is going to change that.
Addio.
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Actually, Morbid, if there were nothing to my post, it would have dropped off with no responses, eh?
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Actually Pasquale, most of the responses stem from a total lack of insight on your behalf.
HT and Pyro have been here before. They are well aware of the risks involved and somewhat knowledgeable on the expenses. They know that the chances of this working are completely dependant on the product they offer and the reception it gets in the community.
As much as I flown flight sims (since 1988), I feel I have a pretty good grasp of things when it comes to development. What I think I know pales in comparison to what the HTC crew have experienced first hand.
So, what I think most are trying to get at here is the fact that you really don't know what you are talking about. I'm not saying that they are going to make tons of money, but I am saying that they are well aware of what it takes to make it whereas you are not.
AKDejaVu
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I think that there is more than enough market for AH to succeed. Lets continue to give them positive feedback that improves AH and makes it not only succeed but excel, for the good of all concerned , including those of us who love to fly and fight. The same goes for Warbirds and any other truly good sim. that cares to compete for our dollars. In the meantime, keep flying and enjoying !!! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Originally posted by pasquale:
Simple, I post in the hope that they will see the replies, more than my post, and realize that they need to do something other than recreate WB to make this work.
If any foolish post is going to make or break the game/community then they do not have much in the first place do they?
I agree.. I care for the game and I appreciate the work HTC and crew do. Thats the reason I make the comments that I do so they can make $$$ and have a really superb flying sim for years to come. Of course if we wanted to be apathetic and sit on our lorals we could just say nothing and pretend like we don't forsee any problems, same kind of people who would let you walk around with your fly down all day (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) .. your comments might be a little too harsh tho but its got the right point across...
Personally I think HTC and crew aren't in it for the money right now, that'll come later. I just hope that later they'll have something which makes them rich and us happy ;0
[This message has been edited by HaHa (edited 01-29-2000).]
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Damn! Take my money, HTC!
Gordo
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I can only imagine how large the player base would be today if WB had gone to a monthly flat rate charge years ago.
Mino
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Against my better judgement, both you pasquale and haha just don't get it. There is nothing wrong with discussing pros and cons. Nothing wrong with posting suggestions for improvement. But crap like pasquale's out-of-his-ass calculations and forecasts of doom serve no purpose. What good will come of it? Why post that stuff here? So others -also without a clue - who care to comment can do so? (added in edit - I don't mean those arguing for reason - I mean other dimwits who keep posting their own financial doom guesses)
Do you honestly think that HT and crew have not considered such a simple thing as a feature list and a timetable to deliver them? Do you really think they don't know that the best sim will attract the lion's share of players? Do you really think that you have any idea of what their bottom line or business plan really is?
I know this is a waste of time. If you guys had any real understanding of this issue, you would never have posted the junk you posted. I think what is really the issue is that mommy isn't going to cough up the $30 for you to keep flying and you are ticked because it is back to Jennicam and Mr. Hand.
[This message has been edited by Morbid (edited 01-29-2000).]
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Hey, YO! This is a BBS and also there is a Constitutional right here in the good ol' USA called Freedom of Speech. Just ask any Newsman. They are adept at shoving it up our ahhh you know, every day. The make us think that they know all when instead they just cause indecision and confuse most issues and put the slant they want on it.
Point here is; don't mock someone for his/her opinnion. Debate it fairly and make your points. Saying someone shouldn't say something because it just might happen is BS! IMHO, nothing is being discussed here that isn't in/on everyones mind including and especially HTC's. If it bothers you and you can't refute it with facts, ignore the thread! It takes two sides to argue and many posts. If only people with the same opinnion post the thread dies quickly. We all know there is plenty of "trolling" done on these boards. I think that pasquale and the others, including myself, are genuinely concerned for the health and longevity of AH. As I said above I think it's Too Little, Too Soon, for Too much. God, I hope I'm wrong!
Peace,
Dracon
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Not too get too deep into the personal, Mordi, et al, but I do have an inkling of what it takes, and as I said originally, my numbers are wag's and on the very low end of what the actual monthy expenses are.
Back to the original question:
Will HTC get enough paying customers to stay alive? I hope so, but with the feature list they have now, I don't see it. How many accounts did they have when it was FREE, for Christ's sake? Barely enough while free, much less for 3 times what the closest sim is charging(AWIII).
You guys who say that since they have done it once, they can do it again are simplifying it way too much.
WB, when they did it the first time, stood alone, far above the crowd. This game does not.
As far as Mommy and Daddy paying for my hobbies, they quit that 30 years ago. Money for me isn't the object, I want something new and advanced over what is available, and this ain't it(yet).
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Well either way we'll all find out in a couple weeks. One of two things will happen:
1) Around 20-30 people sign-up, they will see no one is online at all, get really depressed and not sign-up for the next month
2) Around 100-200 people sign-up and things will be great, vehicles will be implemented and I will be sooooo happy (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Pasquale;
I am sure HTC is already aware of what they need to do to be profitable.
Even if you are not that far off, is it really any of your bussiness?
I have a couple more questions for you.
Why do you care?
What did you hope to gain by posting this thread?
By all the flames you have gotten, IMO you kind of come off in somewhat a distasteful way.
For example, someone is starting a resteraunt bussiness and they invite you for a large dinner to test their food preparation. After the meal, would you comment to them "You people are going to get very constipated and become very sick from the lack of BM?".
Since they had made a large effort to provide you a nice dinner. Likely their surprized response to you might be "You are FOS, don't bother worrying if you will ever be invited back here to eat again!", for a free meal or otherwise.
If you were asked after the meal "What did you think?". Rudely, you could have made the above comment. More politely, you could have responded "Your food, just Ain't so Hot". Then NOT come later to purchase a meal from their bussiness.
At any rate, good luck to you. I am sure that you had good reasons. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Mino
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Check your score pasquale... I'm sure you're down around 1,500 or so on the "free" sign-up... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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The assumption that HTC has to make money or even thinks they are going to make money in the first few months is wrong. The point is, they have to start charging.
I think this is a good tactic. #1, cash starts coming in, and #2 people have to make a decision.
So, for example, if I'm a AW player - I'm not going to keep both accounts, I'm going to decide on one. What does this mean? Well if my squad starts moving over to AH, more likely than not - the whole squad will get a subsciption. More likely than not, a friend visiting my house and seeing me playing AH and not AW or WB will say "that's a cool game, what is it?"
The point I'm making is that I think that AH finally charging will actually help to get the ball rolling in building the community.
As far as plane sets not being as high as the competition, well judging by the speed they are pumping these planes out, that will be a non issue very soon.
Personally, I can afford to play all of them - but I tell you what, if I was running the $200.00/ month bills that I used to in WB, I would switch instantly to AH - it's just simply better value. The fidelity of the FM's are such that it wouldn't be a deciding factor in choosing either of the simms.
What AH really has to work on to really get ahead of WB is offering historical terrains, terrain editor, and events. I'm sure this isn't a new revelation to them (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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pasquale i think yer bellybutton sucks buttermilk,take yer figures an put em where the sun dont shine.what are you,a banker?LOOK at who is developin this sim.have you ever seen warbirds,who the hell you think werked there the tooth fairy.what if,everyone flyin here was to tell 3 other people about AH,do ya think maybe a little advertisin mite help them?what a concept
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Originally posted by fudpucker:
pasquale i think yer bellybutton sucks buttermilk,take yer figures an put em where the sun dont shine.what are you,a banker?LOOK at who is developin this sim.have you ever seen warbirds,who the hell you think werked there the tooth fairy.what if,everyone flyin here was to tell 3 other people about AH,do ya think maybe a little advertisin mite help them?what a concept
Interesting first post.. obviously you're hiding behind this "fake" nick whoever you are. Confirms my suspicions that all flamers are really quite immature.
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Yep, agree! Seems like fudpucker is 15 and still growing!
Here's a scenario for ya! What if HTC is more interested in selling the game to a gaming site, like IEN selling FO (Fighter Ops) to AOL? Nothing wrong with that now is there? Business is Business, they say.
Guess will know in a month or so just how it all goes. Speculation is the Spice of life!
Dracon
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As for myself I'm with the 'wait-and-see' group. I really like this sim a lot and I've had a lot of great times in the free beta...but the fact that BOTH my Warbirds squads show absolutely NO sign of switching over greatly affects my decision to stay with Warbirds.
The other thing that is holding me back is the fact that WW2O is coming soon and thats something I'm very excited about.
In the meantime I will be watching the progress of this sim very closely...but I want to hold back until I can finally decide where my 30 bucks a month will go
Please don't hate me for not joining you guys now (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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-floo- fangs out
463rd Bomb Group
15th Air Force
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LOL
Funny thing is, I know right where Drewsey, Oregon is....
Mino
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I think you guys should do what Frence farmers do when they get in an argument-They throw sheep at each other! Anyway I would prefer to support AH because its put together by a small company and not a megacorporation. Business always has some risks and I think the HTC people realize that. It might be better to spread the word about AH as something for gamers to give a try than to use your energy in endless speculation. If you get frustrated- then throw some sheep!
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Minotaur! 501 Posts????? What-the! , wait, I figured it out, you're in jail and all you have is a computer and a lot of spare time! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) Just kidding , glad to see how interested you are in flight-simming.
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Minotaur! 501 Posts????? What-the! , wait, I figured it out, you're in jail and all you have is a computer and a lot of spare time! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) Just kidding , glad to see how interested you are in flight-simming.
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Interesting Thread,
I think a lot of this is caused by fear. If people switch to AH and it tanks in a few months, then where do they go? Back to AW? Na can't go back to the farm once you've seen Paris. Back to WB? Can ya imagine the s#$t you would get from the rest of the WB community?
Personnelly I'm going to sign up for AH when the time comes, I like what the AH team has done and what I think they are capable of. Additionally I am getting kind of disillusioned with iEN and the direction of that company. I really feel that WB is being slowly abandoned by all but a few at iEN and the ones still with us don't make the decisions.
So do I say good-bye to the community over at WB and stick strickly with AH? I don't think I can bounce between the two, especially the communities, let alone the FMs.
I'm concerned too about AH. Although I really like what they have done so far, what is going to be done that is going to be differant? What we have now is esentally WBII, (btw HT and company, thats a compliment, you should be proud of that sim) and without Mac support were is the player base going to come from? Can AH draw enough of the AW $9.95/month crowd to make this viable? Without something really differant how can AH hope to lure the WB crowd? (although iEN is helping some in that department)
So as you can see I think some of this bashing is fear of hitching the wagon to a falling star. Is AH going to be succesful? I don't know, I certainly hope so. Is what we see no going to be what the game will ultimately center around? I don't know, I'd like to see HT and company really do something to shake up the Flight Sim community and make em go "Wow look at that!"
But even if it just mirrors WB, I think it has enough better features to keep me interested.
Sharky
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You can run, but you just die tired.
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SHARKY:
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I think a lot of this is caused by fear. If people switch to AH and it tanks in a few months, then where do they go? Back to AW? Na can't go back to the farm once you've seen Paris. Back to WB? Can ya imagine the s#$t you would get from the rest of the WB community?
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You know what's great about the internet? You can be whoever you want, wherever you want. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)...Thing is, if AH or WB folds and you don't want s$%t for it when you switch, it's as simple as changing your call sign... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
As for the topic at hand, I hope HTC do make it. I have a lot of respect for guys like HT and Pyro, not to mention the great work done by the Art guys.
<push, shove, kick...excuse let me out please...scuse me..that the way outa this thread?..right..k..tks..> (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Ex.
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My position is......
Naaaa!
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Damn Ghostrider! This bogey is all over me!!
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The problem is, 30$ for AH and 30$ for WB, when I barely find time to fly 30$ worth for either.
So far, I like the SL's and historical missions flown with Squaddies more than the fantasy arena of AH.
I guess I'll have to wait on AH, which I think may somewhat bolster Pasquale's point.
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Let's not forget for some it isn't a choice. I would still be at iEN if I could connect. I never had a serious problem with the product or the community at iEN (in fact, had several friends over there). I hope iEN gets this straightened out, but until they do, there is only one choice for me.
I would add that I am a creature of habit. Once I get used to logging in and seeing the activity on a server, I grow kind of attached to it. I'm not likely to switch for any transient cause. I want to help the community progress in any way possible. I like to help the new guy. Once I'm at a place for a while it takes a crowbar to remove me. iKERNAL was that crowbar. Sorry to harp on that point, but I dearly loved DoA and WB prior to that iNFERNAL KERNAL.
WB 3.0 may save the BrandW boat, it may not. AH may make it, it may not. That's free market. I can't believe I am the only one who thinks as I do, and I firmly believe there is plenty of bang for $30.
It doesn't have to be an either/or for everyone, but for some it most definitely is. I personally wish both companies the best of luck, but for now, it is AH only for me.
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Dolo,
One reason you keep flying AH. Hoping to meet Swager in the air. He is a rascal and a pirate and you want to kill him! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Everytime you sign on you think to yourself, "Now where is that little bastiage?" HA!! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
He has done a good job avoiding you!! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
NOTE: All this is only valid if you're not flying Knights, of course.
Keep on rockin HTC!!!!!!
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Damn Ghostrider! This bogey is all over me!!
[This message has been edited by Swager (edited 01-31-2000).]
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Well, judging by the current number of people currently signed up for Tour 1, (which I obtained by looking up the score of a certain former AH player who accused all of us of cheating...any guesses? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) ), there are currently 1478 people playing the 2 week free trial. Now, lets do some very simple math. Assume half of them stay (low estimate IMO), why low and behold, that's 739 people. Based on those original numbers at the top of this thread, it looks to me like HTC has a bright future ahead of it. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
bloom25
THUNDERBIRDS
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Originally posted by pasquale:
I hope it does, but I don't think it will.
Just some W.A.G 'es here, but I would say they are in the (low end)ballpark.
6 persons employed=$15,000(6x$2500 which is pretty damn conservative)
Server costs=$5,000(This is a real WAG, and includes line charges and hardware amortization)
So at it's most crude, HTC has a $20,000 per month nut.
$20,000/$29.95=667.78 Paying players(We will call Fallen the .78 of a player).
Anyone want to bet that HTC doesn't get 667 paying players in the first 6 months?
Sadly, the only reason it won't......is because you.... and folks like you won't give it a chance. But of course, I think you are wrong. Folks like me like it, want to play it, and enjoy it. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) Sure it isn't perfect.... what's the point! It IS fun. It's still in Beta! I guess your Brand W CD is more realistic. Go figure.....and I didn't say AW, cause it's better than your brand W.
K-KEN.....the other White Meat!
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umm, I hate to be the one to break it to you, Ken, but it is not in Beta anymore, so you will have to pony up your 30 dolla like the rest(Cya back in AW).
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I dont see any reason why AH shouldnt get plenty of players signed up. Theres a HUGE number of players out there to be poached from other sims. A large number of the players here are from AW and FA who have finally found an affordable REALISTIC dogfighting sim. They can now get top rating flight models and great graphics without it costing them an arm and a leg. Id suggest most of the AW and FA pilots havent moved to WB in the past because they like to spend a LOT of time on their preferred sim and cant afford the hourly charges of WB. AH offers them an alternative and I think they'll come over in droves (as they already seem to have done).
Add to that the small number of disgruntled WB people who for one reason or another want to punish iEN for not providing them with the features they demanded and you easily have a user base capable of keeping AH economical.
Personally, Ive never played AW but I tried FA and thought it was a bit arcadish. I like WB and Im comfortable with it. Ive tried to spend more time on AH recently, expecially with version 1 and Ive grown to like it a lot. However, I dont want to drop WB and I cant afford both (especially with the exchange rates in Australia) so I reluctantly have to drop AH at pay time. That doesnt mean I wont be keeping an eye on its progress and Im open to be poached from WB to AH at any time if the circumstances suit me - the customer. I consider myself average so I suspect there are plenty like me who are in WB or FA or AW and will stick to it for now but will keep a finger on the flight sim (or WWII sim) pulse, with a view to changing when or if the time is right for them.
So AH will probably have little trouble getting a firm customer base, and theres plenty more in the wings who are prepared to make the move given the right circumstances. Pyro has done well to get everything running so well so soon. He's drawn players from several different areas who've now met up, made friends, created squadrons, had social meetings and such. AH is now its own community and that alone will help to hold the players together.
Good luck Pyro. Youve worked hard for it. But I suspect luck doesnt play to much of a part in your plans - people like you make their own luck and you certainly have the ability to make it work.
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aussie
Phoenix Squadron
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Any ship can be a minesweeper... once.
[This message has been edited by aussie (edited 01-31-2000).]
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" Id suggest most of the AW and FA pilots havent moved to WB in the past because they like to spend a LOT of time on their referred sim and cant afford the hourly charges of WB"
Bingo Aussie. With two car payment, a decent mortgage, etc etc (ends list before the small violins get dragged out) I could not afford to pay the hourly fee for the time I spent online flying. And I did not want to watch a clock and fly less.
-Westy
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Well, I think Pyro and HT are smart enough guys to learn from their mistakes. Without being privvy to their business discussions, I think in hindsight one of the things they probably regret is that they had to, to some extent, "sell their souls" to ICI/iMOL back when WB was in fledgling status. Although the repercussions were not immediate, and their creative input was not necessarily stifled, in the end, it was Pyro and HT (and Mo and Hoof and...) who ended up leaving, and iEN who ended up with Warbirds, something iEN didn't create, and something, IMO, they don't fully "appreciate" or even understand.
So wouldn't HTC remember that particularly bitter episode, and have a plan for avoiding it this time? I suspect they would, and I suspect their reputations and performance probably earned them some financial backing that enable them to proceed at their current pace without necessarily being in a "make-or-break" situation YET.
But, that said, just how big IS the "hard-core flight sim community's" niche? Are there vast untapped supplies of customers just waiting to experience takeoff torque, adverse yaw, and snap-spins into the beautiful Rolling Terrain (tm)? Or is that niche too small to be spread amongst 3 or 4 multiplayer sims? If so, AH's customer base will rely on enticing players away from AW, FA, and WB more than it will on finding that untapped reservoir of newbies.
To that end, they have, IMO, made a bit of a mistake. They have forced me to make a decision. Without dwelling on the reasoning, let's just say that everyone like me who decides to stay where they are instead of switching to AH represents lost revenue until AH proves to US that it is a superior product. For me, they haven't done it, so they lose my money until they do.
Contrast that to the beginning of CK. I was unconvinced that CK was "superior" to Air Warrior when CK first appeared. I remained unconvinced for over a year. I kept my AW account current, but I ALSO kept a basic CK/WB account going. At $20 for AW and $10 for WB (plus any extra WB I wanted to play) this was financially acceptable to me, and allowed WB to keep my interest until (with version 1.11-2.0) I was finally convinced, and switched to WB.
AH does not give me that option. To "keep my hand in" AH without giving up the (IMO) superior product (WB) is only possible if I'm willing to spend a combined $60 or reduce my WB account to a minimum level. The quality of AH doesn't meet my requirements yet to do either of those.
Flame away, tout AH all you want. Give me an option to play AH at a "limited" level of some kind, or you won't see any of my money until you're CLEARLY the superior product to folks like me.
You made us choose too soon (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
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Jedi-
Nothing wrong with respectfully stating an opinion, and that is exactly what you've done. S! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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This is a simple question of balancing:
a)smaller fee=more players
b)higher fee=less players
Now you figure out which equation beings more money - and there you have it.
Quick question:
Does 30$/month have this thing about it... like it's a lot ...
19.95$ on the other hand is a one little bill in your wallet... like a .... waste away money...
Still would keep kids away...
Just wondering..
I'll pay 30$/month - cause i believe in the crew and i support their dedication...
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(http://www.raf303.org/banner.gif)
Bartlomiej Rajewski
S/L fd-ski Sq. 303 (Polish) "Kosciuszko" RAF
www.raf303.org (http://www.raf303.org)
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AH will succeed for a very obvious reasons,
1. Game has appeal
2. Game is affordable and will draw all those 200 a month WB players sooner or later
3. Game continues to improve on almost a daily basis
4. Producers are also game players and listen to the other folks and work on doing something about it.
5. Human nature dictates that you will pay the lower price for a simular product and this one is by far superior at the moment
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Although, I'd like to see $19.95 a month, for us poor slobs, both the connect and the flight model will make me stay with AH.
The planes will keep coming in. Hopefully a realistic map, Europe, Med, Pacific, or all will show up. Either way, I'm here to stay and the entire squad will be staying too!
Player #1001, (right after my bro)
mark
a.k.a. wabbit
The Dammed Engineering Officer
The Buccaneers
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Well I believe in the game enough that I'm going to sign up even tho my joystick is broken and it'll be another week or 2 before the new 1 comes in. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
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Mighty1
The New Baby Harp Seals
"Come try to club THIS Seal"