Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: ra on July 08, 2002, 08:16:54 PM
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I've seen references which say that the A-20G we have in AH had a .50 cal gun in a ventral slot. Others references don't mention it. Anyone know if it should have this gun?
ra
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I've seen a number of places which state that there IS a manually aimed .50 ventral MG. I've been unable to find any photographic evidence though. From all of the pictures i've seen, there doesnt appear to be any ventral firing position.
--edit--
I've run into a number of sites with pilot bio's and photos, which clearly state there were two gunners, so, I expect we ARE missing a .50 MG in the ventral position.
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Originally posted by Innominate
I've seen a number of places which state that there IS a manually aimed .50 ventral MG. I've been unable to find any photographic evidence though. From all of the pictures i've seen, there doesnt appear to be any ventral firing position.
--edit--
I've run into a number of sites with pilot bio's and photos, which clearly state there were two gunners, so, I expect we ARE missing a .50 MG in the ventral position.
well, you've seen a number of places and sites which state that.
How about giving the URL so everyone can see them?. All my books staate clearly that the glazed nose version of the A20 had three crewmembers (pilot-bombardier-gunner) and that the solid nosee one had two crewmembers (pilot-gunner).
There is NO reference at all in my books about a ventral gun.
I think you're confusing teh invader with the havoc.
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http://www.wpafb.af.mil/museum/research/attack/a3/a3-11.htm
http://209.133.73.66/AWA/AWA_201-300/AWA_291-300/walk297_A-20/walk297.htm
http://www.southernoregonwarbirds.org/fa1.html
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Yes, the A-20G does have a .50 cal in the ventral position. Why HTC didn't model the A-20 with it is a mystery to me. There are tons of references to verify this.
My regards,
Widewing
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Originally posted by Widewing
Yes, the A-20G does have a .50 cal in the ventral position. Why HTC didn't model the A-20 with it is a mystery to me. There are tons of references to verify this.
My regards,
Widewing
Do you have any photographs detailing the location of the ventral gun? Or where exactly the firing position is?
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Originally posted by Innominate
Do you have any photographs detailing the location of the ventral gun? Or where exactly the firing position is?
Probably. I'll check when I get home tonight.
Meanwhile read this:
Douglas A-20 (http://www.ophetweb.nl/ww2w/ww2htmls/douga20.html)
My regards,
Widewing
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That position was left out intentionally of the Boston 3 and A20-G because of lack of photographic reference. If someone can actually find what it looked like inside the plane from that position, then it may be possible to add it to the plane. I spent a long, long time looking for pictures to no avail.
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Originally posted by SUPERFLY
That position was left out intentionally of the Boston 3 and A20-G because of lack of photographic reference. If someone can actually find what it looked like inside the plane from that position, then it may be possible to add it to the plane. I spent a long, long time looking for pictures to no avail.
I'll check with Bodie and Bowers, maybe we can help you out with this.
My regards,
Widewing
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You know SUPERFLY.....if there's no pictures of it anywhere, then nobody would ever know if you got it wrong :)
J_A_B
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So is the Boston we have the same as the french DB-7? If so its missing the engine nacelle guns also. Fired by the gunner, foot pedals I believe. They only fired direct 6 but hey, anything helps.
Also the Squadron Signal, A-20 in action has some pictures of the tunnel gun, but I dont think there are any from the inside.
Dnil
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Will this do for proof of a lower gun position?
(http://www.nlcs.k12.in.us/deckardb/a20s.jpg)
I can't find an internal shot, but that open slot is in an A20G.
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(http://www.nlcs.k12.in.us/deckardb/a20plan.gif)
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Oh and damage list only shows 5 fixed guns +)
SKurj
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I found these links that might be of some help.
1st, a DVD of the an A-20 for modelers that states it shows the ventral position (a .30 cal but it should be similar in .50 configuration, with perhaps a different mount). http://www.geocities.com/modvid/
2nd, there is an A-20 in the HTC neighborhood (sort of) that you might be able to get access to. Don't know if the ventral position is restored though. http://www.lsfm.org/aircraft/havoc.htm
Finally, are there any quality scale models you could use that detail this position? What about using models in general for these purposes? Do they provide enough perspective to work with?
Charon
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Hum, pulls out ERTL 1/48 A20 Havoc kit, takes a look. Nope no ventral guns. Looks at cutaway internal view of A20 in "American Warplanes" book, nope not in there either.
Hate to kill this thread but I dont think the ventral gun was factory installed. Might have been a field thing done by some A20 squadrons. I've never heard of it though.
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Originally posted by senna
Hum, pulls out ERTL 1/48 A20 Havoc kit, takes a look. Nope no ventral guns. Looks at cutaway internal view of A20 in "American Warplanes" book, nope not in there either.
Hate to kill this thread but I dont think the ventral gun was factory installed. Might have been a field thing done by some A20 squadrons. I've never heard of it though.
I would not be caught dead using a model kit as a reference.... I have the same kit and I can tell you without reservation that does not represent an "as delivered" A-20 from the factory.
Some aircraft were modified in the field to remove the gun position. However, all A-20G models were delivered with the gun in place.
When I get home this evening, I'll pull out my reference materials and see if I can get to the bottom of the question.
My regards,
Widewing
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It's not a question about it being there. Plenty of books say it is there, but I can't make something without knowing what it's supposed to look like. It seems that this particular gun position was rarely used. I believe some planes didn't use them at all. Given it's position, it may have been almost useless.
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Oops, LOL :D
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Actually, my references were for Rram, who seemed to need verification. I knew the position was supposed to be there, but it is no biggie one way or the other to me.
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(http://www.innomi.com/A-20TunnelGun.jpg)
Does this help?
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I imagine that this gun would be operated by the same guy who operates the twin 50's on the dorsal? guns...Making it very hard to know when to jump down there and use it.
If they did have a seperate gunner for this posistion With that limited amount of view...I'd be scared as hell looking through there with fighters everywhere.
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It was operated by the navigator, poor guy had to sit inside that thing. A-20G has a crew of three.
Seeing as it points at the angle people like to attack a-20's from in AH, I can't see it being COMPLETLY useless.
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It's not an A-20G, but it is a photo of the existance of a ventral gun on the a-20's.
(http://death.innomi.com/uploads/a20-sm.jpg)
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Ju88-A4 is missing a gun too you know ;)
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Originally posted by Wilbus
Ju88-A4 is missing a gun too you know ;)
So why should anyone care?
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
So why should anyone care?
Because it's fun to watch your lip curl when you cry
-Sikboy
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I often woundered about this, I recall having read about it too, I just asumed it was ot on the models we had included in AH, I nead to question more....hmmmmmm:)
Ya It would be very usefull, that is the best way to atak an A20 from the rear underneath, be nice to have realy.
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Originally posted by brady
I often woundered about this, I recall having read about it too, I just asumed it was ot on the models we had included in AH, I nead to question more....hmmmmmm:)
Ya It would be very usefull, that is the best way to atak an A20 from the rear underneath, be nice to have realy.
Some were removed in the field I believe.
But AFAIK all a-20G's shipped with .50 mg's mounted in the tunnel.
Like superfly said, they may not have been all that usefull, but, neither are the guns on the TBM. :P
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Nore the ones on the AR 234, wait all it neads is a sight:)
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Originally posted by brady
Nore the ones on the AR 234, wait all it neads is a sight:)
Oh really?:D (http://death.innomi.com/uploads/234flyin.zip)
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would be cool to have as an Option, & would definitly help Boston since the rear .303's interruption gear are well.. the "cant shoot" area I find a little big (You cant just not shoot the tail, but a few "inches" around the tail u cant shoot either), but a20G the interuption gear doesnt take effect untill you're actuelly aimed at the tail...
Any way would be neat feature if we could find texture referances for superfly/natedog...
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Originally posted by SUPERFLY
That position was left out intentionally of the Boston 3 and A20-G because of lack of photographic reference. If someone can actually find what it looked like inside the plane from that position, then it may be possible to add it to the plane. I spent a long, long time looking for pictures to no avail.
What about the missing gun on the B17, not to change the topic or anything.
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what gun is the B-17 missing - the radio operator's?
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Originally posted by whgates3
what gun is the B-17 missing - the radio operator's?
That would be the only one that's not modeled.
By the way, your software sucks worse than my flying. :D
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sells a fortune, tho...if you could sell Yugos@Rolls-Royce prices you would too...alpha flight $u><
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punt
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Originally posted by whgates3
what gun is the B-17 missing - the radio operator's?
wasn't it was removed on most b17-Gs though?
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did the A20 or the Boston III had an ventral gun to??? :confused:
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Originally posted by frank3
did the A20 or the Boston III had an ventral gun to??? :confused:
Both had it, the boston is just what the british callled thier A-20s.
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I found this one in Feb 1996 edition of Wings. The caption: Belly gun installation on an A-20C. Again, note the protective armor. This is an American .30 caliber Browning; the A-20C/Boston IIIs that used British armament had a Vikers K gun in this position. In the G model this weapon was replaced by a .50 caliber browning.
Charon
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great photo, any more? Maybe some interior shots? (I havnt been able to find any of an a20!)
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A couple of standard cockpit shots and a good external shot of the twin .30 installation, but mainly external.
Charon
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Originally posted by Charon
A couple of standard cockpit shots and a good external shot of the twin .30 installation, but mainly external.
Charon
Post em?
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I'll scan em in and post them tomorrow.
Charon
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Here's the upper twin .30 mount on the A-20C. You can see the extra armor "face plate" on this mount and on the ventral MG as well. You don't see it in AH or in other external photographs, so maybe it was a good idea in theory but a disadvantage in the field.
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The A20A cockpit
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The A20G Cockpit
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If they had delivered the a20 for play in AH they would ALWAYS have had the gun. AHII is a chance to do it right. Make it as factory made not as sometimes field modified
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http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=1060322#post1060322
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I took the time to look through our manuals on the A20G series, and could find no mention of the ventral gun in either the IPM or the Erection and Maintenance manual. My bet is, like previously stated, it is a field or theatre added item.
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The first block of A-20G's were completed with four 20mm cannons in the nose. The cannons were prone to jamming and had a relatively slow rate of fire, so beginning with the 251st aircraft, the nose armament was changed to six .50-cal. machine guns. Four of these guns were mounted in the nose in the same position as the cannons on the A-20G-1. Two additional .50-cal. machine guns were added in a fixed position in the lower forward fuselage in the same location as on the A-20A, -B & -C models. The aft armament stayed the same -- a flexible twin .50-cal. machine gun in the dorsal position and a single flexible .30-cal. machine gun in a ventral tunnel position (some aircraft had .50-cal. ventral guns).
Taken from http://www.wpafb.af.mil/museum/research/attack/a3/a3-10.htm
(http://www.edwards.af.mil/gallery/html_pgs/images/attack/a20-3_072.jpg)
Not sure if you can see it, but there is what looks like a gun barrel pointing out of the bottom of the plane, right under the U.S. insignia. Not sure what it is, but It could be a Machine Gun.
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http://www.wpafb.af.mil/museum/research/attack/a3/a3-10.htm
best online reference I could find was The USAF Museum, and I would have to think they have pretty good sources:
"The first block of A-20G's were completed with four 20mm cannons in the nose. The cannons were prone to jamming and had a relatively slow rate of fire, so beginning with the 251st aircraft, the nose armament was changed to six .50-cal. machine guns. Four of these guns were mounted in the nose in the same position as the cannons on the A-20G-1. Two additional .50-cal. machine guns were added in a fixed position in the lower forward fuselage in the same location as on the A-20A, -B & -C models. The aft armament stayed the same -- a flexible twin .50-cal. machine gun in the dorsal position and a single flexible .30-cal. machine gun in a ventral tunnel position (some aircraft had .50-cal. ventral guns).
Douglas built 500 aircraft in three blocks with this basic armament configuration: 50 A-20G-5; 300 A-20G-10 & 150 A-20G-15's. The block 10 & 15 -G models incorporated various changes and improvements based in part on feedback from the operational squadrons using the A-20G in combat. Some changes incorporated included additional and improved armor plating, larger engine air filters for hot weather operation and heaters for cold weather operation."
OT: Also note that there were about as many Havocs in the war made with 4x20mm as there were La7s with the 3 cannon loadout (hint hint)
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United,
I agree that it was probably there at some point, but what perplexes me about the whole thing is that if it were a "standard" production feature, then there should be mention of it in the IPB, as being a gun mount location, formers and other structure are likely to be subject to high stress and break, thus needing spares. Then, to not see it in the Erection and Maintenance manual is even stranger too, as that alone should have inspection procedures tbf for that area and periodic maintenace for the pos too. Who knows, Until a good pic is found, not much chance it will be added IMHO.
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(http://www.innomi.com/images/A-20TunnelGun.jpg)
Used to be farther up in the thread, but the link got changed.
Got it from the people at http://trfn.clpgh.org/ah/a20.html
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Punt. Innom, that is an awesome picture, and probably just what Pyro needs to model the ventral gun. I believe he said he didn't model it because he didn't have any idea what it looked like. That is a great picture of it. You might want to email it to him, it'll probably get into AH2.
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BTW at this point I'd say that enough people have shown enough evidence that even IF and I'm sayin IF the A-20G and BOS III didn't come off the production line with a rear gun there is more than enough evidence to say it wuz widespread. Now there is plenty of art to go with it.
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But still the fundamental problem that we have no idea what the interior of the A-20 looked like.
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Got a good enough idea, I would think. Got the one picture showing from the handle of the gun looking out, and the other one showing from the barrel looking in. Should be enough, in my opinion.
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Originally posted by Innominate
But still the fundamental problem that we have no idea what the interior of the A-20 looked like.
Knowing the interior is not really important. Look at the B-26 interior, there's not much detail. What we would need to know are the swivel limits of the gun.
ra
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Originally posted by SUPERFLY
It's not a question about it being there. Plenty of books say it is there, but I can't make something without knowing what it's supposed to look like. It seems that this particular gun position was rarely used. I believe some planes didn't use them at all. Given it's position, it may have been almost useless.
Some models depending on what company are very deturmand to get ther models very acurate. Know do you only do the art on planes or on all of the vehicles? I do now the Ostwind has an error with the top turret. The side on the turret around the 20mm cannon are able to open flat, for better vision.(http://"c:\My Documents\My Pictures\Mobelwagen AA Gun.ipg)
'(http://C:\My Documents\My Pictures\Mobelwagen AA Gun.ipg")
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New to this so bear with me. Not sure on how to send images from dektop.
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From the interior pic posted in this thread, looks like the A-20's ventral gun art could borrow that for the TBM, but with a wider field of fire . Too bad we couldnt roll a few grenades or depth charges/air mines out as well :)
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Originally posted by muffdvr
Some models depending on what company are very deturmand to get ther models very acurate. Know do you only do the art on planes or on all of the vehicles? I do now the Ostwind has an error with the top turret. The side on the turret around the 20mm cannon are able to open flat, for better vision.
BZZZZT. Thank you for playing.
The "Möbelwagen" had a square, nonrotating superstructure around the 37mm AA gun that was lowered to provide a fighting platform:
(http://www.achtungpanzer.com/images/mobel_1.jpg)
The "Ostwind" had a hexagonal rotating turret that completely enclosed (except for the top, which was open) the 37mm AA gun; this allowed the gun to be fired without exposing the gun crew to enemy fire:
(http://www.achtungpanzer.com/images/ostwind.jpg)
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Don't know if you guys noticed it, but that A20 that was restored was listed as having 9 .50's.
Didn't say what specifically, but you deduce that it's 6 Nose mounts, 2 in the turret, and that leaves one left.
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I read they will be updating the old planes. Please remember the a20g's gun.
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A-20 ventral gun as modelled in PF...
(http://www.pacific-fighters.com/ss/A-20_dn_gun.jpg)
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What is PF? That's a great image though.
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Originally posted by Zanth
What is PF? That's a great image though.
Pacific Fighters (http://www.pacific-fighters.com/en/home.php)
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The book I have says .
Defensive armament
Dorsal and ventral gun posistions were available in most Havocs/Bostons, though the armament fitted varied considerably.
French DB-7s were able to carry a single 0.295-in (7.5-mm) machune gun on a flexible mount in both positions.
The DB-7A followed the same pattern, though the original French specifications called for a single gun to be mounted in the rear of each of the aircraft's engine nacelles, for rearward defence!
American aircraft, starting with the A-20, had a pair of flexible 0.3-in (7.62-mm) machine guns in the open dorsal position and a single 0.3-in (7.62-mm) gun in the ventral position.
In the A-20B the twin '30-calibers' were replaced by a single 0.5-in (12.7-mm) gun, this arrangement remained standard until the 751st A-20G was completed.
This and subsequent aircraft had a Martin dorsal turret , with 'twin 50s' installed
Taken word for word from
Aircraft Anatomy of World War II
Technical Drawings of Key Aircfaft 1939-1945
General Editors: Paul Eden and Soph Moeng
Hope some find it helpful
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To heck with the ventral gun. I want the 4 x 20 MM Hispanos!!
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Originally posted by MOSQ
To heck with the ventral gun. I want the 4 x 20 MM Hispanos!!
Yeah, that would be pretty handy (since AH doesnt model the guns jamming up).