Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: hitech on September 04, 2000, 01:19:00 PM
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The first facts you must understand about trim is that there is no way possible to
Make it work like a real plane. The joystick interaction with the controls is a complete different
Mechanical setup.
In a real plane you would be holding the stick back to maintain level flight.
You would then turn the trim knob to relieve any pressure on the stick, with out the stick moving.
With a computer joystick this simply isn't possible. When you let go of the stick it will always go back to center.
Even force feedback sticks do not have the ability of adjusting stick spring center.
2nd problem is stick feel.
When pyro and I originally did some early models for CK we tried setting real settings for elevator deflection.
For example the spit's stick setup is capable of generating about 38 deg. AOA, and the plane stalls at around 17 degs AOA.
This would equate to pulling the stick less then halfway back would stall the plane.
Now from a purely mathematical realistic point of view that’s the way the plane was set up it should be the same in the sim,
But if you step back and look at things another way, what did the plane feel like to fly and
Does it "FEEL" realistic things change.
When flying a real aircraft I since very little stick movement,
I perceive much more on how hard i'm pulling, how much i'm grunting, how much the stick is vibrating, then how much I’m moving the stick.
To accomplish some of this we use the stall horn, now the stall horn is NOT realistic by any means, but some method is needed to give
You the same realistic feed back from the plane that you get in real life so in the perception since it is very realistic.
Therefore you are forced to choose a method that works and gives the perception of reality.
We chose to setup controls that will let you stall with full stick deflection unless you are limited by control force.
Now comes the trim problem.
At slower speeds where do you scale the stick movement from and how do you add in trim.
The method we have been using was to always give you x degs. Of elevator travel then
just add that deg to the current trim deg.
This leads to problems if you are slow with nose down trim you could no longer pull the plane to the edge of stall.
This isn't how real planes fly in the slower flight envelope,
Very few planes could you not generate enough stick force to pull into stall at slower speeds.
This over sight is why people use trim when in a slower turn fight and hence get an advantage by giving more up trim at slower speeds.
Under 1.04 we have change the control setup slightly. We now scale the elevator/stick deflection to the same ending
Angle no matter where the trim tab is positioned.
There is another misconception that trimming your plane perfectly gives you a flight advantage.
Trimming your plane or just holding controls and pressing rudder to center the ball is exactly the same thing.
And the plane will fly the same under both methods.
Now onto how the combat trim works. It's not a perfect trimming system.
Best way to describe how it works is take your plane and trim it constantly in a dive from slow speed to high speed.
Now make a table of trim positions at all speeds.
All the combat trim system does is use this table to set the trims based on your speed.
Everything else still functions the same, you pull back on the stick you still get adverse yaw, you turn you still will need to add in rudder.
You change throttle settings the plane still rolls do to torque. Add flaps trim settings will be completely different and the system won't account for it.
Drop gear you will again be out of trim. If you’re climbing or diving your plane is still out of trim.
In the end all the combat trim system does is keep you in a trim envelope that you can override with normal controls.
As to how its controls work first there is a key to toggle it on or off.
2nd touching manual trim will always turn it off.
3rd there is a setting to weather you want it to always be on or off when coming out of existing auto pilots mode.
Now as to are we loosing sight of pleasing the realism crowd?
That is for you to judge.
At the same time we are adding things like combat trim, we are also adding things like icons now disappear
If an enemy plane is behind a canopy rail, under wings, your low 6, behind hill's or under the nose excreta.
We have spent a lot of time researching and changing pieces of the flight model that we were not
Hitting real world numbers. Now these changes really won't effect the "GAME" much, they will change tactics used.
Things like horizontal to vertical transitions will be much more effective. Things like lead turns will be more effect because
After a 180-deg turn you will have more speed left to take the shot on the b&z bogie.
But in the end neither combat trim nor the flight model effect the game play in any way.
It's still who can fly the plane to the edge, knows ACM best, who know his planes abilities vs. his opponents, who can shoot well,
Who can chose his fights or which plane to shoot first.
All these things still make the best pilots what they are.
HiTech
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VERY COOL
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Thx HT, please did u remember the old I-force on WB ???
well it was 1.7 Wb wehn i bought the Ch force FX it costed my at that time 300$
it used I force input and it Worked Fantasticly !!!!!!!
even the triming can be fell on in or stall and many other thing
after when u change to DX 5 foce input the aviable drivers on DX for FX force suxx big time
tested the MS forcefedback, sory , it never will be like a i force is it to arcade vibrator for hungry girl (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
well thx and give us the 1,04 plzzzzzzzzzzzz
plzzzzzzzz
ostwind to finaly punich all the c hog pnzr wulchers ! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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First of all thanks for your answer, Hitech. Very much appreciated.
Now I have a lot of questions. Seems the CT is different than what I've thought of, still I still fear some things.
Under 1.04 we have change the control setup slightly. We now scale the elevator/stick deflection to the same ending
Angle no matter where the trim tab is positioned.
I know that computer games dont give the right feel of airplane controls. I agree and like this change. I always had wondered if that "trim up" help in the close turning was realistic. I see now it wasnt. Great to fix it!.
There is another misconception that trimming your plane perfectly gives you a flight advantage.
Trimming your plane or just holding controls and pressing rudder to center the ball is exactly the same thing.
And the plane will fly the same under both methods.
Sorry ,HT but that is simply not true.A plane will fly exactly the same with the stick and rudders deflected so the plane flies straight, or if it is trimmed so the rudder and stick are centered.
BUT (and here comes my fear), to keep trim with rudder input is MUCH harder than with trim, at least I feel it like that. Rudder untrimmed causes a lot of E-bleeding, so giving a lot of edge to the well trimmed aircraft. It is HARD to keep a plane well trimmed in the rudder in a close fight and there is a HUGE advantage here for the "player" that flies with CT on, because it will trim the rudder for the player.
I find this unnaceptable, sorry (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif). One of the biggest challenges in Aces High is to learn to do proper turning with no skidding and the "ball" in the center. If the computer does it for you, where is the challenge?...Sorry but I cant agree with this thing, HT (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif).
Now onto how the combat trim works. It's not a perfect trimming system.
Best way to describe how it works is take your plane and trim it constantly in a dive from slow speed to high speed.
Now make a table of trim positions at all speeds.
All the combat trim system does is use this table to set the trims based on your speed.
Everything else still functions the same, you pull back on the stick you still get adverse yaw, you turn you still will need to add in rudder.
You change throttle settings the plane still rolls do to torque. Add flaps trim settings will be completely different and the system won't account for it.
Drop gear you will again be out of trim. If you’re climbing or diving your plane is still out of trim.
I am a bit lost here...please be patient with me. CT will trim your plane for SPEED changes only? ok...then it keeps the plane trimmed in all 3 axis, isnt it?...then if you go from idle to WEP, the torque will make the plane go out of trim. So far so good. BUT then the CT will Auto trim the plane for you?. Sorry I dont see where is the improvement here, HT, is exactly what I had in mind when I though of a EZtrim.
Right now,with the current trimming, in that situation, at first the torque acts untrimming the plane and then you trim it manually. That means pilot workload.
CT will trim the plane for you. Pilot doesnt have to look at it. No workload involved, so the pilot can focus on killing the con he is fighting with.
Sorry I dont like it, it is just the thing I had in mind when StSanta wrote about the CT in the other thread. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
In the end all the combat trim system does is keep you in a trim envelope that you can override with normal controls.
So giving the CT pilot a disntinctive advantage because he can focus on killing the enemy plane instead of keeping himself's airborne.
Maybe I am missing something here, but for sure this sounds like EAW for me, HT. I Dunno...please if I am wrong tell me, but for me this seems EZmode, something that gives one side of the party a CLEAR advantage. The workload involved in trimming the plane is heavy, more in unstable planes like G10. If the computer trims the plane for you, then where is the challenge?.
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif) Hitech...sorry...but you are describing just the change I cant accept in Aces High (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif).
I hope that I have understood something bad. Please, if I have done it, put me straight...
But for sure for me this is bad news (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 09-04-2000).]
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Ram you have misunderstood. So just wait and see.
HiTech
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Thanks for the post HT...lots of good info. Now, get the hell out of here, and enjoy the last day of a long weekend. If you haven't been working, that is (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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CC...glad to hear it
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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egads!! does this mean the WB super E retaining spits are back?
Seems like a crude Fly by wire system. I wait to pass judgement of course. Must try before I can comment. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Dnil---Skyhawk until I get Dnil back :)
Maj. 900th Bloody Jaguars
Part time aircraft restorer. www.kingwoodcable.com/jheuer (http://www.kingwoodcable.com/jheuer)
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HT, thanks for the info!
I guess I don't understand why I would want to use manual trims instead of CT. The only time I use manual trim now, is to bring the plane back into trim as my speed changes. Is there some other effect beside speed change that requires trimming? Maybe fuel or ordinance use?
Can you tell I'm not a RL pilot? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
popeye
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Looks like ram hit all the things that crossed my mind. I feel like i wasted the last 6 months. As bytor pointed out in another thread. I have reached a point where I can turn fight with a BnZ type plane pretty good. This was all done with constant manuel trimming , of course.
It looks like the playing field has been leveled. This is no doubt more marketable. And from what RL pilots have posted, Maby even more realistic.( They say trim tabs are to small to be control serface,s anyway). Still I feel disappointed by the sound of this.
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I read it totally different that you RAM.
Lets see, the above is in the order of RAM, Hitech and me:
"One of the biggest challenges in Aces High is to learn to do proper turning with no skidding and the "ball" in the center. If the computer does it for you, where is the challenge?...Sorry but I cant agree with this thing, HT."
"Everything else still functions the same, you pull back on the stick you still get adverse yaw, you turn you still will need to add in rudder.
You change throttle settings the plane still rolls do to torque. Add flaps trim settings will be completely different and the system won't account for it.
Drop gear you will again be out of trim. If you’re climbing or diving your plane is still out of trim."
So you will still get skidding when turning. the CT doesn't adjust for this.
"I am a bit lost here...please be patient with me. CT will trim your plane for SPEED changes only? ok...then it keeps the plane trimmed in all 3 axis, isnt it?...then if you go from idle to WEP, the torque will make the plane go out of trim. So far so good. BUT then the CT will Auto trim the plane for you?. Sorry I dont see where is the improvement here, HT, is exactly what I had in mind when I though of a EZtrim."
"Best way to describe how it works is take your plane and trim it constantly in a dive from slow speed to high speed.
Now make a table of trim positions at all speeds.
All the combat trim system does is use this table to set the trims based on your speed."
So the way I read it is that that it will only trim the plane for a certain speed at a certain torque. If anything else is changed (throttle, gear, flaps, damage) the CT will not take it into account.
"In the end all the combat trim system does is keep you in a trim envelope that you can override with normal controls."
"So giving the CT pilot a disntinctive advantage because he can focus on killing the enemy plane instead of keeping himself's airborne."
Well, as written above CT doesn't trim for your manouvers or cut throttles, etc. you still need to work the rudder and so on yourself.
So basically I think it is a good way of implement this thing.
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Ltn. Snefens
RO, Lentolaivue 34 (http://www.muodos.fi/LLv34)
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I agree, the way I read it is that it'll keep the plane trimmed when you're flying in optimum conditions without the sudden control movements & direction changes, etc accompanied with a dogfight. Sounds like it'll help keep your nose down when you're diving down on a bogey, but what happens when you get to the deck...with your trim keeping your nose down, I bet you'll have a nice surprise waiting for you when you try to pull out (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
SOB
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It looks to me as if it simply trims your aircraft to an optimal setting for the speed.. regardless of plane orientation. Its not taking out sideslip or any of that... simply setting the planes trim neutral for level flight at that speed (even if you are not flying level).
Its table based, not aircraft pitch/yaw based. It doesn't help you through turns or prevent sideslip.
I'm curious as to what it will do on a hammerhead rope-a-dope move. I can definately remain neutral now that I've heard some facts.
AKDejaVu
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I dunno - the way I read it, it sounds like it will be a welcom addition to the sim and not at all like what it originally sounded like.
I think we should all just wait and fly it to see. This is obviously a hard thing to describe.
But the stuff about masking the icons sounds great!
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HT,
Thanks for the info. Now can you explain a couple of the things you said.
I understand from your explaination that in say a P-51 that if, for example, you are holding the stick say a little forward and a little to the right to mantain level flight. When the trim tabs are moved to trim the plane that the stick remains in that foward-right position just that it would now take little to no effort on the pilot to keep it there? IE the stick is not returned to center when the trim tabs are positioned?
Second,
The method we have been using was to always give you x degs. Of elevator travel then just add that deg to the current trim deg.
This leads to problems if you are slow with nose down trim you could no longer pull the plane to the edge of stall.
This isn't how real planes fly in the slower flight envelope,
Is this why in every sim I've ever flown that at low speed with full flaps on final approuch, I can't use trim to flare the aircraft as I've seen pilots to many times?
I have no experiance flying any real airplanes but I have about 200 take off and landings looking over the shoulder of C-12 pilots, and I've always thought that I should be able to use trim in WB and AH to do some of the things I've seen those pilots do.
Thanks,
Sharky
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Sounds good HT, I know you guys have bookoos of time and hard programming in this.
Just as I figured, too many people doing the old "sky is falling" routine. Seems some people are just petrified by any kind of change. I, for one, welcome it. I might not use the new feature, but it may make it easier for the new guys to fly.
Worse case scenario, it might not be perfect to start with, but hasn't HTC been receptive to our views in the past? I trust that they have a clue to what they are doing. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Ok, picture this scenario: you're diving for an enemy in your G10. The enemy does some violent maneuvers and then goes vertical, pulling up. Because you are a LW g10 driver with superior skills to this Spit dweeb, you easily follow. But, your speed is significantly lower, and without trim the plane rolls to the left and pulls up.
As you get the snapshot, you center the joystick. Eeek, your plane rolls right, goes up, shot missed; you've not learned thhe lesson that you have to either provide trim or compensate with the joystick.
Consider the same thing with CT. Table based, you might be slightly off in in trim. Center joystick. Ah. Great shot, target dead..
Consider the case when you are slowly gaining on a Spitfire. He breaks, and you turn with him in your A8 for about 45 degrees, normal procedure for a snapshot. Due to no icons when plane under nose or just bad shot, you miss. Spit breaks hard, does a 360, is d.500 your 6 and you're either not gaining much or he is gaining. You die due to two Hispano hits.
These are my worries about v 1.04. Looks like new fm will neuter the advantage of my fav ride, the 109G10. It can climb and go fast, but is not good for high speed deflection shots due to poor roll rate and high speed handling. Since we ain't getting more of a speed increase in z&b, but the enemy can turn more, it'll be a bit more difficult to bleed him slow so you can kill, which means easier for the Spit to equate e status - turn hard, go a bit lower, pull straight up and force the HO if the other guy is diving. Then roll out, higher than the enemy but with less speed. Basically same e state.
I.e seen thse kind of reverses many times in AH - my guesses is that they'll become much more prevalent if turns aren't penalized as much in terms of e bleed. But if the current fm is wrong, change it.
I'll just fly my A8 more carefully, and bug more often. Squelch ch1 to avoid screaming you &%(/ spit HO dweeb and the "u r a c0W@rD 190 ruNn3R". For a plane with the turning characteristics of the A8 (which quite basically scream "never, ever turn. If you, do, I'll bite you in the butt." an additional boost of e after turn won't be as much advantage as in a Spit V. The A5 will benefit from it more though, so we'll haved more A5 dweebs.
What I am saying, before some of you jump to conclusions, is that it'll have quite an impact on tactics. T&B'ers capabilities will have increased more than Z&B'ers, since the former rely on turns much more. If that was the way it was, fine with me. Might even take the F4 or G2 instead of the G10.
But, planes which are a delight to both turn fight and e fight in (N1K, Spit IX for instance), will be very sweet planes indeed.
I'll have to beat t&b'ers either with turning myself, or with getting higher speeds, allowing for less off-nose separation in snapshots.
Please do not consider this as a whine, but read it for what it is; an attempt to analyze the consequences of more e retention in turns for both z&b'ers and t&b'ers. This is a whine:
damned spit turns like a UFO! What does it have, rocket boosters? Hell, he shouldn't have followed me, not after doigng a 180 turn - he couldn't! Why didn't my rope a dope work? Hell,. he had MORE e after the 180 degree turn than before!".
Hope ya can see the difference (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif).
</anti whine entry>
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StSanta
JG54 "Grünherz"
"If you died a stones throw from your wingie; you did no wrong". - Hangtime
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thanks i like it sound like a improvement to me. thanks for the explanation it is much appreciated
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HT;
CC and Thanks!
However....
Next time, please try to wait just one day more.
I am curoius to see how many players will go into the "I'm Quitting" mode prior to any changes actually being made to AH and/or the actual change actually tested out by that player to see if their worst nightmares actually come to pass and the game becomes actually unplayable or not.
Actually, I'm only kidding! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Mino
The Wrecking Crew
"hehehe...I like this thread squealing Bastids!"
SOB
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No one commented on the disapearing Icons feature HT mentioned! about time
People have whined on this one for a year and they are doing it....
WTG HT
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Pongo, true. That feature is very welcome.
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Ltn. Snefens
RO, Lentolaivue 34 (http://www.muodos.fi/LLv34)
[This message has been edited by LLv34_Snefens (edited 09-04-2000).]
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<<Under 1.04 we have change the control setup slightly. We now scale the elevator/stick deflection to the same ending Angle no matter where the trim tab is positioned.>>
This will be another nice change. Right now if you are a zoom climb with a lot of Up trim, when you get to the top of the climb and you want to push the nose down, all you do is mush because your down elevator is restricted by the up trim setting. Getting blasted in while this mushy condition is very frustating (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
<<...low 6, behind hill's or under the nose excreta.>>
HT you can't trust a SpellChecker. It let you get away with 'excreta' instead of 'et cetera' because excreta actually is a word: "Waste matter, such as sweat, urine, or feces, discharged from the body." (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
At least I hope you meant et cetera (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
ra
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Guys,
I trust Hitech and Pyro. Every change that has been introduced so far has enhanced AH. With a batting average like that, I'm willing to bet on them and anxious to see what's under the hood of 1.04.
I'm actually more concerned about the reduction in energy bleed during induced drag conditions. With my 25,000 pounds of thrust out the back of my F-16, she slows down in a heapum hurry when I smack out 9 g's. This is especially true at altitude. On the deck she'll happily g my lips off but as I progress into the teens the energy sheds quickly. Don't even talk about the high 20's, induced drag in that thin air eats airspeed by the ton.
The current flight model 'feels' right from my (albeit jet) experience. I'm curious to see how the new system works out but think those propellor driven aircraft would shed speed fairly fast (even with their straight wings versus my fully programming leading edge flaps).
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Vyper
134th Fighter Squadron
VTANG
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Originally posted by Pongo:
No one commented on the disapearing Icons feature HT mentioned!...WTG HT
Uh - I did! See above (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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HT.... <S>
So....do you think an old warrior like me and some others who've been getting cabin fever in the MA, will have a renewed "fun factor" with these changes forthcoming in v1.04?
I won't hold you to it, but what would be your best guess based upon the many discussions we've had over time.
Thanks.....
Regards,
Badger
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Thanks for this explanation HiTech. I've had a dead PC for two days and this being my first post to read was a refreshing relief.
I understand why you implemented (in WB's) and even more on what you'll be implemening here. I like it.
-Westy
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HOT DOG! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
That sounds GREAT HT! <S>!
Now, wheres my X-Wing??? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Originally posted by Vyper:
I'm actually more concerned about the reduction in energy bleed during induced drag conditions. With my 25,000 pounds of thrust out the back of my F-16, she slows down in a heapum hurry when I smack out 9 g's. This is especially true at altitude. On the deck she'll happily g my lips off but as I progress into the teens the energy sheds quickly. Don't even talk about the high 20's, induced drag in that thin air eats airspeed by the ton.
YOu are still conscious doing 20 gs? I always thought structural limits for F16s were in the teens?
I dunno nothing about jets anyway though, I'm just curious.
-SW
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I frequently try to anticipate a speed situation and set trim accordingly even if I hold pressure on the stick while building up to 450mph or whatever. I really had no problem with the trim- you have to trim a plane to help keep it under control without undo stress etc.. Historical accounts indicate that inexperienced pilots missed targets quite a bit because their plane was out of trim. So whats the problem? You can do the same in AH. Seems like it was modeled OK to me.
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AK,
A little miscommunication. Mid 20's is in thousands of feet. The Viper is limited to 9 g's by the flight control computer (it will overshoot to 9.5 if you really snatch it at high speed).
The energy bleedoff really goes up as you go higher. Neither the engine nor the wings are as efficient in the thinner air.
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Vyper
134th Fighter Squadron
VTANG
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Ah okay, I misread then. Sorry about that! I thought 20 gs was a little high for a human to not be a bowl of jelly at the the bottom of his flight seat. :-)
Thanks for the reply!
-SW
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Mapping a joystick (with symmetric travel and forces) to a real stick (with neither feature) is always going to involve a compromise.
HT thanks for the explanation, and I'm eager to try it.
[This message has been edited by funked (edited 09-04-2000).]
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And yeah Pongo I noticed the icon change. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Hi. I have been lurking around these boards for quite awhile, but never posted anything. I tried AH a few times during Beta, but didn't stay because I didn't want to pay 30 bucks a month (AirWarrior costs 10 for similar gameplay) Also, I don't like how I could not carry my name to AH, because AH doesn't allow names using anything but numbers or letters (so "J_A_B" is impossible to use)
I am posting now, because I think some outside air might be needed here.
The "Combat Trim" will not ruin this game. It will not make it any more/less realistic. It will simply be an optional feature, like padlock.
As for the arguments about reducing realism:
yes, constant autotrimming reduces realism. I don't see how people can complain though, because Aces High is already unrealistic with trim.
How it it realistic that a BF-109 can trim its ruddder? A real 109 sure couldn't--they lacked rudder trim of any kind.
Why don't FW-190's get automatic pitch trim, like real ones did?
Why can any plane in the game trim itself in flight? The VAST majority of WW2 planes could only be trimmed on the ground, to a single speed. To be realistic, most planes in AH should not be able to trim in flight AT ALL....instead, they should have an option in the hanagr to "trim for ____ speed"..which would then be the plane's trim speed for the entire flight.
On top of all this, "combat trim" may very well ADD to realism, not reduce it.
Think about it...
In those [few] planes which the pilot COULD trim in flight, trimming was done with little wheels. Unlike in this game, the pilot did not lose his abilty to look around when trimming. However, If I move my hand from my view buttins to trim, I can no longer look around...and losing sight of the enemy is not a good thing.
I have a two-button K-mart joystick...no rudder pedals...no throttle except keyboard...and because of things like trim, this game puts me at a disadvantage, simply because I don't have super controls.
That is NOT realistic...contrary to popular belief, maintaining plane trim was not usually a factor in air combat--because [most] planes could not trim in flight. SO, really, the ability to trim in Aces High reduces realism for the most part, not adds to it.
There is no single perfect way to model plane trimming without also modeling real-life forces..which is obviously impossible. Different games, therefore, use various comprimises. The game I play--AirWarrior-simply keeps the plane trimmed at all times, in all attitudes, for everyone. Not exactly total realism, but its fair for everyone.
Aces High models trim, but adds an unrealistic means of controlling it. A large part of the game has become how well you can control trim, which wasn't even possible (usually) in reality.
Adding "Combat Trim" will re-focus this game on flying skills, rather than [unrealistic] trimming skills.
Thanks for reading,
J_A_B
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Adding "Combat Trim" will re-focus this game on flying skills, rather than [unrealistic] trimming skills.
I think that's precisely the idea - nice post.
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Damn.. Tuff one here. Here's my take on it:
Certainly; pilot workload will be diminished... for a newbie. Worry number one.. I wont be evading as many shots as I was. Newbie gun accuracy looks to get a big shot in the arm. However, the rest of us just got our workloads increased... they put an in flight switch on it.
Pushing the other guy in a fight includes pushing his workload up to stay offensive,, soon as he gets behind the curve, he's defensive. If he don't use manual trims on and dialed in when he hits the extremes of the flight envelope he's gonna be at a disadvantage.
I can see using CT to get close to a guy in a fight; and when it gets to be time to get nasty; switching it off and dialing up the trims appropriate to the circumstance. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
E retention.. it's very mention, sends a thrill and a shudder up my spine. Big question is really here.. what FM's and to what extent?? I predict this change will be the most traumatic.. and the most appreciated. Maybe we'll see the looked for clearly discernable diffrence that was lacking between the various platforms in the verts vs flat turns. My money's on Pyro gettin it right..
Of course; the icon visibilty changes will be hugely appreciated... when we gettin that canyon arena back? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
WTG HTC..
Hang
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HiTech,
Very Cool (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Sounds pretty good to me actually. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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bloom25
THUNDERBIRDS
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Thanks for the explanation HT.
Can't wait to try it out.
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Ah....so the sky isn't falling after all.
like all those threads said lalalalalalalala.
Me personally I will try something before I go off deep end.
Btw what is this trim thingy?
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Sounds good.
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What ever happened to "if aint broke dont fix it" hehe.
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AH : Maniac
WB : -nr-1-
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Amazing how a post from one of the HTC team and all the doom & gloom threads dry up (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif).
Gotta say after reading Hitech's explanation I don't think we have anything to worry about. After all how many of the "Trim Lords" have nice pretty curves on the Stick graph (Just another crutch & totally unrealistic).
TTFN
snafu
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just wondering what the FM chnage is going to do to the "relative aircraft performance" that we were used to ..
as Santa said .. the slow turning A/C HAVE to bleed the E of their bogies to the extend to make a tracking shot possible, especially with the Cal.50 equipped A/C like the F4U-1D and the P51 , where a snapshot won't get you far unless you're VERY VERY close.
Now if this Change is going to affect every FM ? are just a few Aircraft subject to change?
How will you bleed the energy of a spit or Yak , or any other fast accelerating aircraft that can breakturn out of your guns with minimal E loss and regain it's energy in a few seconds by merely unloading an accelerating?
For the Combat trim matter .. i don't really like it .. as i can't judge the impact it's going to have on Fast/slow transitions during fight .. but i fear that it will make a huge difference ....
DW6
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<looks at X36 and PCDash> Ok, I have the buttons bring on the CT!!! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Looks interesting there,HT!!
[This message has been edited by 1776 (edited 09-05-2000).]
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Remember that the combat trim is not an auto-trim, it's just a system of trim presets based on your speed. It's not designed to keep you perfectly in trim under all conditions, just to keep you somewhat close. The presets can only really cover one power setting at a particular weight. Conditions outside of that won't result in perfect trim, you'll have to still use manual trim if you want that. The difference is that it keeps you in the general range.
Another benefit of this system that I like is that it helps alleviate some inherent problems in making the aerodynamic models of the planes. Trim range is exaggerated on most planes in AH. It's not done intentionally but it's almost impossible to get trim, stability, handling, and post-departure characteristics balanced out against each other without something having to give. Usually it works out that there is a greater change in trim than desired.
As to this representing a change in our direction, sorry that's not the case. We didn't come into this blind. Our philosophy has been successful through the years, and I don't see it changing. New things will come, changes will take place, and down the road we'll expand the game into entirely new areas, but the underlying philosophy will remain the same. IMO, the only difference now is that we're able to come up with more refined solutions.
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Doug "Pyro" Balmos
HiTech Creations
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Whats funny to me is, the only trim I use is X, shift x, and ctrl x. I never use anything else, have never really needed it. Some of my squaddies think I'm nuts but I tend to survive when I want to and usually kill when I want to. I'm more concerned with the new E retention system, trim bah who needs it!
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Dnil---Skyhawk until I get Dnil back :)
Maj. 900th Bloody Jaguars
Part time aircraft restorer. www.kingwoodcable.com/jheuer (http://www.kingwoodcable.com/jheuer)
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So this means less trimming as your speed increases??
In the 109 I constantly use the trim to keep that nose down. Otherwise I have trouble "saddling up" Plus I believe the 109 tends to roll to port.
If CT takes some of this manual trimming action away, Im all for it. I do enjoy manual trimming the AC alittle. A bit more personal with the AC you're flying.
With the CT, pilots that have a hard time steadying on target may kill more. Ya see, I have no problem getting into position, my shooting just sucks!! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Swager
GeschwaderKommodore I/JG2~Richthofen~[/i]
"Damn.....I can't believe I missed that shot!!!"
(http://saintaw.tripod.com/swager.jpg)
JG2 "Richthofen" (http://Ripsnort60.tripod.com/JG2inquirer.html)
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The older I get, the slower I get, the more trim I get....DOH!
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Ah shucks! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Seems to me that most players do not suffer from the "Paranoid Trim Syndrome". I welcome this and welcome HTC's new ideas especially the one about disapearing ICONS.
Sounds cool!
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Mino
The Wrecking Crew
"hehehe...I like this thread squealing Bastids!"
SOB
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Maybe I'm off and I missread HT's post but I think that the auto-trim is a big step toward the easy mode.
I recall that most of the time I miss shots because my airplane is not correctly trimed and I can't stabilize my shooting on the target with the joystick. The nose is 'jinking up/down' because the stick get 'too sensitive' when my trim is not right.
Also, does auto-trim counters the torque effect and keeps the ball centered? (didn't got that part right). Because if trim is not only on the elevator but also on the 2 other axis hehehehe piece of cake, no more glory for a kill.
As the more E retention in turns, I will just have to relearn my habits of dogfighting, maybe I will run more in my P47 or maybe I will be able to do even more in it.
I'm looking foward to see it.
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To translate what Rip!! said he gets more trim hanging over is belt (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Tommy (INDIAN) Toon
Indians Home page were links to help pages can be found.
Indian's Homepage (http://www.geocities.com/~tltoon)
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There are obviously a LOT of people here who don't understand how trim works in a real airplane, particularly in some WW2 aircraft that did not even have pilot adjustable trim in all axis.
Andy Bush did some fine explaining over in
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/defaultframe.html (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/defaultframe.html)
For those who are all worried about the new change, I suggest a slow, careful read of his work over in that topic.
As it is right now, Trim in AH is much more of a purely arbitrary "difficulty level" feature than anything to do with <ah! NOOO! not that word!!!> "realism".
Due to the way the flight model has been designed and implemented, I believe this new change will actually move us a bit closer to <gasp!> "realism".
Thus, I believe HTC's intent with Combat
Trim is to try and correct an abberation in the flight modeling system. Therefore, it is an improvement.
If that last statement gets you all upset, please re-read what Andy had to say about RL trim in the link above.
As for E-bleed, try this: take your favorite fighter up with 75% gas, get up to a "normal" cruise speed, roll into a 60 degree bank, level turn. If you are doing this right, a 60 degree bank level turn will be exactly 2 G's. Add power as necessary to hold entry airspeed. Any of these fighters should be able to go around that turn all day until they run out of gas without losing speed or altitude <in some you probably won't need full throttle to hold entry speed>. In other words, the thrust supplied by the engine is more than adequate to overcome the generated drag.
I think you'll find that in the present programming you will bleed speed rather quickly and eventually won't be able to hold level flight.
I think this is what HTC is trying to correct in V1.04 also.
This game isn't a destination; it's a journey. Everything here IS NOT perfect. However, improvements continue to be implemented.
So far, these guys haven't stumbled much when bringing out the next version. It's ALWAYS been better.
Those of you who want to bail out before you even see what they have created....the green light is on over the door.
I'm going to stick around and see what they made for us.
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Originally posted by indian:
To translate what Rip!! said he gets more trim hanging over is belt (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Hey! I resemble that remark, lately!
The less hair I have, the more head I get!!
See !! (below)
(http://Ripsnort60.tripod.com/homero011.jpg)
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im like a kid at christmas time. I WANT TO OPEN THE PRESENTS !!! bring it on (1.04)
RWY
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I just don't understand the continued wrangling over trim. There must be other aspects of this sim where efforts at improvement would bring more and better results with much less carping.
One more time...RL pilots do not usually trim during aggressive BFM maneuvering. Why? Because in the time that it takes to fly the maneuver, most trim systems (cable and electric) do not operate fast enough to keep up with the airspeed changes that are occurring. (That and the fact that there were many other, more important, things going on that the pilot was concerned with.)
WW2 aircraft had trim controls that were manually operated, usually by the left hand. In an engagement, the pilot usually kept his hand on the throttle since the need for throttle changes was far more frequent than the need to trim any flight control surface.
The aileron and rudder trim controls were small knobs that were intended for occasional use only...as the need demanded. Aileron trim was set once, normally...and then not changed unless some weight redistribution had occurred to the wings (fuel tank imbalance or assymetrical external stores). Once climb or cruise power was set, the rudder trim was set for that condition and then left pretty much alone.
The pitch trim wheel was larger and easier to operate that the other two trim knobs. This was because pitch trim was changed more often during a mission...anytime a constant speed was going to be held for any appreciable time, such as climb, cruise, or letdown into the landing pattern. Depending on the type of aircraft, this pitch trim operated a trim tab on the elevator or moved the horizontal stabilizer itself.
These trim controls were not fine tuned during BFM. The pilot flew his aircraft 'in trim' by using the primary flight controls. Of these, the one most likely to be 'out of trim' was pitch, due to the magnitude of the airspeed changes encountered in typical BFM maneuvers. When this happened, the pilot just ignored the 'heavy' pitch stick forces.
The next most likely to see a need for correction was the yaw attitude of the aircraft. When an aircraft is experiencing a yaw displacement from the neutral position, that is called a slip or skid. The pilot sees this on his turn and slip indicator, heading indicator, and also most likely 'feels' it in the seat of his pants. The pilot corrects this by either trimming the rudder to center the turn and slip indicator or by pushing the rudder pedals in the appropriate direction. During BFM, he would use the pedals, not the rudder trim, due to the need for an immediate correction.
When is an out of trim yaw condition most noticeable in an engagement? Probably when trying to keep the gunsight on the target. If you find that your gunsight pipper is sliding off right or left of the target while you maintain a stable tracking attitude, it is most likely that your rudder is not trimmed properly (or your size 12 feet are inadvertantly tromping on the rudder pedals!!). If your gunsight slides opposite your bank angle, you are skidding. If the sight slides off in the direction of your bank, then you are in a slip.
In either case, make your correction with rudder...not rudder trim!
Andy
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Well said, Andy (one more time! one more time!)
Thanks!
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So, what Andy said is that pilots never trimmed their aircraft in BFM, they didn't have a 'combat trim' system, they flew their aircraft and kept it stable with stick movements.
Thus, combat trim is unrealistic.
What Andy said isn't positive from a realistic sim POV.
[This message has been edited by Nath-BDP (edited 09-08-2000).]
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I too wonder why all of the sudden they put so much effort in changing things that works without problems.
Regards.
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AH : Maniac
WB : -nr-1-
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Maniac - existing system does not work without problems. Control surface travel limits are effected by trim at low speeds. This is not the case in real aircraft.
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So the old system will be gone once the new Combat trim is in?
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AH : Maniac
WB : -nr-1-
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Nath
Just to clarify my words...
>>So, what Andy said is that pilots never trimmed their aircraft in BFM<<
I tend to 'never say never'! The reason is that air combat is such an expansive subject that there is probably always an exception to every rule...and so there is with trimming during BFM. One example might be a high speed extension where the pilot is in the maneuver long enough that a pitch trim input is worth the effort.
But, I'll stick with the general intent of what I said...as a rule, pilots did not attempt to change their trim settings in the three axes (pitch, roll, or yaw) during aggressive BFM maneuvering...especially roll and yaw. Out of trim pitch and roll stick forces would have been manually over-ridden (the pilot would have just held the stick pressure and ignored it). If the pilot noticed an out of trim yaw tendency, he would have corrected with rudder pedal input.
>>they didn't have a 'combat trim' system<<
Correct...there was no such thing.
>>they flew their aircraft and kept it stable with stick movements<<
Well...stick (pitch and roll) and rudder (yaw) movements, to be correct.
>>Thus, combat trim is unrealistic.<<
From a purist point of view, I suppose so...but let's wait to see what it looks like before we pass judgment.
>>What Andy said isn't positive from a realistic sim POV.<<
If you mean that it is 'negative' to point out that a particular feature has no counterpart in real life, perhaps so.
But, I'm not trying to be negative. Instead, my objective is to explain trim...how it works and when it was used. Once our readers understand the subject, they are free to decide if the feature is 'unrealistic' or not.
Personally, given the amount of differing opinion on the matter, I'd level the playing field by leaving it out of the game. Of all the aspects of BFM that had an effect on the outcome of an engagement, trim had about as much impact as the color of the pilot's hair.
Conversely, if folks decided that they want trim in the game, then it should be modeled correctly. It should be completely manual...and it should be adequately described in the game docs. Once that is the case, then let the fun begin!
Andy
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Originally posted by Andy Bush:
Nath
>>Thus, combat trim is unrealistic.<<
From a purist point of view, I suppose so...but let's wait to see what it looks like before we pass judgment.
>>What Andy said isn't positive from a realistic sim POV.<<
If you mean that it is 'negative' to point out that a particular feature has no counterpart in real life, perhaps so.
I think the point is that whilst combat trim may be somewhat unrealistic (a neccessary compromise gives it a more positive spin), trimming a plane using the the AH controls whilst in combat is more unrealistic yet.
Getting into a deck level turnfight and cranking elevator trim right up to gain an advantage (so easily done, although it never even occurred to me until I read these threads) is particually dweebish - almost as EZ Mode as using rudder trim on a 109 (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
RL pilots trim instinctively through 'feel', scarecely giving it any thought. In non-combat flight it's not hard. And trimming during a dogfight just didn't happen: Pilots struggled with the stick, the rudder, and G-forces instead. These were usually adequate to compensate for incorrect trim.
Seems to me that the real pilots who post here are pretty unanimous that trim was not generally a big factor in combat.
In AH it can be due to stick modelling restrictions. Draw your own conclusions about the current trim system. Personally, I think CT MAY be about to improve it.
I have faith: Looking forward to 1.04 (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Vladd
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I agree Vladd.
There are many things that are not realistic about this sim/game that is due to the very fact there are no RL feedbacks.
CT is an unrealistic option that is being used to make up for PC limitations.
Untill we get Neural links, we will be stuck with improvisation. Ct just may make this sim better.
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I prefer to use manual trim for everything it feels more like flying. Would be great to have trim wheel controllers some day. Not that big of a deal though.
TS
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Originally posted by Sharky:
HT,
I understand from your explaination that in say a P-51 that if, for example, you are holding the stick say a little forward and a little to the right to mantain level flight. When the trim tabs are moved to trim the plane that the stick remains in that foward-right position just that it would now take little to no effort on the pilot to keep it there? IE the stick is not returned to center when the trim tabs are positioned?
Sharky
That is, intuitively and in a small paragraph exactly how RL trim works.
Now I'll botch it by trying to explain further ...
The purpose (and only purpose AFAIK) of trim is to reduce pilots muscleforce in holding the plane in its aerodynamically optimum position (ie minimum drag).
Trim mechanism is often an small extra surface on the nominal control surface that 'flies' the control surface to different positions depending on its deflection.
Attempt at ASCII art:
The 3 big slashes are the nominal surface, the minus sign is the smaller trim surface attached to the nominal surface.
Imagine this to be an elevator trimmed 'down'.
\
..\
....\
......*--
Edit: Ignore the dots
Another, and simpler, trim mechanism is just an adjustable spring loading attached to the stick (much like the springs in an joystick actually, except the centering of spring forces is adjustable).
Unless you have an Force-Feedback Joystick _with a moving zero-force centering_, you can never have realistic trim with a computer joystick.
As for the CT changes, I don't quite understand what HT is saying.
Is the CT only having an effect for pitch trim ?
This much I get; the elimination of 'extra deflection by trim', most useful at low speed turning is a step towards realism.
[This message has been edited by scout (edited 09-09-2000).]