Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: senna on July 10, 2002, 04:50:29 PM
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Imagine the tune to the show "Bionic man" as you read this :D
I or someone else might have brought this up in the past and I read some where that wwIIonline us using this idea (I've never played it so not sure). Would it be a good idea to implement a fatigue meter of sorts in the FM. A red bar or something that would simply indicate your pilots current health state from pulling too many hard Gs. In real combat this was a major factor and should be taken into consideration. Any thoughts?
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Put in cockpit heat too. the LA7 could would imediatly become used 1/2 as much.
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A tired pilot from pulling too many G's would sure even things out in a fight. could base on how tired a pilot get's by his score or by the amount of sorties that he/she has flown in a tour.
the more sorties that is flown the less tired in a fight you become?
because the body gets used to pulling the G's. and a pilot that is not in shape cant take the G's as long and as many.
say every 20 sorties a pilot can take the G load for 30 seconds longer than the past 20. and add another 10 seconds for every 20 sorties after?
you would have to factor in recovery times and a bunch of other stuff.
I could be off base with this but, it was a factor and still is in extreme flying.
but thinking about it things are pretty even the way they are. everyone can pull the same G's now. you might end up with a super marine screen saver for bit after a big high G furball. so it would even give a bigger atvantage to the pilots that are fresh comming to the fight. with fatigue factored in you would see pilots off recovering from G loads away from the fight.
good topic :)
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Adrenaline- ever been in a situation where you used it while on foot or something extremely tiring?
You don't get tired until after the fact.
I don't remember reading in pilot's anecdotes, "I was so tired, that I simply couldn't pull the stick anymore... and then I was shot down."
Usually it's more like "I had sweat pouring down my face, causing my oxygen mask to become very uncomfortable but I couldn't stop turning. If I stopped turning, I would get killed."
-SW
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why not have the pilot fly the plane himself while you just sit and watch? :p
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I agree with AKSWulfe, adrenaline would keep you going.
I would like to see true grey-outs though.
F.
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In an account of a battle against a lot of F6Fs at the end of the war (after he had received an eye wound), Saburo Sakai said that he had to hold his stick in his left hand because his right arm became numb after long minutes of hard maneuvering.
It's an extreme case, but sustained effort has an effect on piloting after some time.
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Kewl!!!! And then when you get to tired your could spend your perk points on eats back at the tower to build your energy. Say 5 perkies for a peanut butter and jelly sandwich, 50 perkies for a steak and 200 perkies for sausages and beer. And then we could have great big tea parties in the tower while we wait for our energy to build. We could discuss lots of keen things and exchange recipes and sewing tips, and wear funny hats and......It will be a hoot!!!! :D :D :D
Avid
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interesting
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Muhahaha Avid !!!!
we could drink ale and scotch ( yuk) and sing songs too!!!
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each subscriber to HTC should have to take a thorough fitness test and then send the results to HTC along with their age and medical history. With this info HTC can properly model each of our physical states in-game.....
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Originally posted by Hornet
each subscriber to HTC should have to take a thorough fitness test and then send the results to HTC along with their age and medical history. With this info HTC can properly model each of our physical states in-game.....
Maaaan! I'll barely make it for C47 duty! ;)
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DHO!!!! No Senna not that, at 6'4" and 285lbs I would be relegated to flying only buffs, and maybe an occasional jug run after I grease up my fat prettythang and squeeze in :D
Avid
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Originally posted by AKSWulfe
I don't remember reading in pilot's anecdotes, "I was so tired, that I simply couldn't pull the stick anymore... and then I was shot down."
-SW
Those aren't the pilots who lived long enough to write anecdotes :)
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Man, I don't know why you guys are making fun of this idea. It is great! We can finally combine two of the greatest games/sims to ever come along: Aces High and Gauntlet. Imagine hearing a wav file that says, "F6F pilot needs food badly," on channel one so we can all hear it. Even better would be the wav that says, "109 pilot is about to die."
I say bring it in NOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Lol Math :D
Seriously, if it's simplified a bit to game standards, I think it's ok. It might add some interesting situations to the game. Simplify the pilot's body to four parts - Head/Torso/Arms/Legs.
Head damage will no doubt give out the instant pilot kill
Torso damage will lead to the 'fainting' we currently see, with a bit longer interval than we currently experience
Arm damage will reduce aileron/elevator authority by maybe 30%
Leg damage will reduce rudders and wheel break authority by 30%
Multiple damages will have all the indicated effects plus an increased chance of fainting(current standards) during certain time interval, and an increased chance that the next faint out will be 'death'.
We could maybe add this small icon below the CTRL+D damge screen.. :)
(Edit: Woops, forgot to post image)
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New damage screen, with human icon indicating damage to left arm and leg... ( :) )??
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Actually - Sakai (as in Saburo, R.I.P.) related how he was becoming very fatigued in his epic escape from 16+ F6Fs.
This isn't an exact quote (don't have the book in front of me) but in his book he basically relates/says something like this:
"My rudder control began to get sloppy and I was skidding all over the place as I conducted evasive maneuver after evasive maneuver. My breaks were becoming less crisp and taking longer to develop. I knew if I didn't get away soon I would evade too late and that would be the end."
He was specifically speaking about the effect of fatigue - and pre WW2 IJN fighter pilots were trained to a far superior level of physical conditioning when compared to any other Nation's pre (or post, for that matter) WW2 fighter pilot training program (probably Imperial Japanese military/martial tradition at work there - read Sakai's book to see what I'm talking about).
Another case I will never forget - one of the greatest air combat stories I ever read. It was long ago in Air and Space and it was an Israeli jet fighter pilot telling the story of how he and his wingman caught some Egyptian (?, I think the enemy was Egyptian - could have been Syrian, etc., etc.) opponent in a Mirage at low altitude. The Egyptian pilot was obviously low on gas and had no missiles left and was trying to get home. The 2 Israelis dropped down on him in a large valley, understandably expecting an easy kill (Israeli combat pilots have such a reputation)...and they both barely got away with their lives.
To give you an idea of how good this unknown/unsung Egyptian fighter jock was - this Israeli ace spoke of him with great reverence during the story and claimed he was 'the best fighter pilot I have ever seen'.
To make a long story short - the Israeli alludes that if this enemy pilot had 2 missiles he would have landed at home with 2 (more) Israeli kills to his credit. He didn't have any missiles, and still almost killed both of the Israelis more than once.
The Israeli basically states that as the Egyptian had finally gained some decent separation, he bolted and began to climb over the cliffs at the edge of the valley (he'd been at very low altitude over the floor of the valley until then). This gave the Israeli ace one last shot - with a missile and an actual chance to hit this time because the enemy wasn't lost in the clutter of the valley floor. He says he saw the Egyptian pilot begin to evade and then 'wash out' of his maneuever. The missile hit the enemy. The Israeli was certain that the enemy was too exhausted to keep up the pace of maneuver he had been keeping.
Pilot fatigue would be very very cool, especially fatigue and cumulative G forces linked with stick forces required for maneuver. You'd see an until now unmodeled reason why it would have been a terror to fight a bunch of F4Us while flying an A6M, or why some pilots disliked the Bf 109 (very tiring to maneuver at high speeds, and not alot of cockpit room to apply force to the stick, etc.). I'll never forget the interview with the LW pilot who explained that the Bf 109K-4, unless trimmed for such prior to takeoff, required full rudder against torque to 'skid' in a straight line when at full power + boost at very high altitudes.
This would tire out one leg pretty fast I think. 8)
Mike/wulfie
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lol Mathman, I used to love that game
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Kweassa, LOL.
:D
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Wulfie, "Pilot fatigue would be very very cool, especially fatigue and cumulative G forces linked with stick forces required for maneuver. You'd see an until now unmodeled reason why it would have been a terror to fight a bunch of F4Us while flying an A6M, or why some pilots disliked the Bf 109 (very tiring to maneuver at high speeds, and not alot of cockpit room to apply force to the stick, etc.)."
You're kidding right? I wouldn't want to fly an A6M against a bunch of F4Us anyway. Eventually they'd be able to BnZ you to death, you simply can't avoid 3 or 4 coordinated F4Us in a zero for ever.
Most people already don't fly 109s as their ride of choice, the stats show it. The G10 sees the most use, because it can carry a 30mm and has uber-WEP.
In the case of the Egyptian pilot, they assumed he was tired. In the case of Saburo, he was tired... but he didn't quit.... of course he had one problem we don't have to deal with, he could only break to one side due to having vision in only one eye.
-SW
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No I'm not kidding at all. When stick forces and fatigue are not modeled, you are removing the disadvantages that some aircraft really had, and removing the advantages that other aircraft really had.
I believe you don't want to fight 4 F4Us in an A6M. Neither do I. 8)
But look at it this way - in real life, with 'cloned' pilots, who have the same musculature, endurance, etc. - it's going to require greater energy for pilot A to maneuver an A6M thru 4 hard turns at 300+ MPH than it is going to be required of pilot B in a F4U, P-47, etc.
Pilots did get 'worn out' from frequent and heavy ACM in the same sortie - it was not a rare occurance. I can't recall his name but one of the top scoring LW aces had a repuatation among his peers as being so strong and fit that he literally 'wore down' an opponent because he could perform more strenuos ACM for a longer period of time.
Look at the positive side - certain aircraft types in AH, while being aerodynamically capable of retaining energy while maneuvering and thus being capable 'on paper' of conducting a near endless string of very impressive ACM/acrobatic maneuvers...would now by default be flown more 'realistically' - because there is a human body as part of the FM.
I don't think this will happen for some time - mainly because I think the HTC guys would do it right, which would require alot of research on ACM effects on endurance, etc.
But if it makes the matchup more realistic, I'm all for it. I love the Bf 109G-10 in AH. If I had to change the way I flew it in AH because I could get more 'tired', well that's part of the package if you fly a Bf 109G-10.
It would change how often certain aircraft were flown no doubt, but it should matter in an online WW2 air combat sim that it was immensely less tiring to maneuver a P-47 at 350 MPH as compared to an A6M, or a Bf 109, etc.
Mike/wulfie
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Originally posted by wulfie
But look at it this way - in real life, with 'cloned' pilots, who have the same musculature, endurance, etc. - it's going to require greater energy for pilot A to maneuver an A6M thru 4 hard turns at 300+ MPH than it is going to be required of pilot B in a F4U, P-47, etc.
Aces High already does this. All pilots are modelled after some guy named Clark Kent.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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Originally posted by Mathman
Imagine hearing a wav file that says, "F6F pilot needs food badly,"
yah i can see it now.............. to feed ur pilots u have to get a flying coin that looks like a burger or mabey a pizza........
but then again when the pilot has to sh*t can u use that as a bomb? like be in a dog fight take a dump hits ur persewers window blinds him and makes him a lawn dart.........compleat with fertilizer
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Well according to some 109 pilots they could withstand Gs longer than their allied couunterparts due to the seat being inclined in the same Form as an F16 seat.
So I mean it could balance out a duel for example a Spitfire pilot can maneuver better but the 109 pilot could pull Gs a while longer without suffering black outs and it could in some cases even out a match. Or an La7 pulling more Gs than the 109 pilot would have to watch his Gs so he would be affected by Gs more so than the 109 pilot.
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Anyone got some research on the length (time) of the average air-to-air engagement?
Didn't think so.
:D
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Not a big fan of any idea that would shorten combat more in AH. The damage model already cuts things back a lot more than I'd like. Methinks this would just shorten flights even more.
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The British were also into the G-suit business, and found the Spitfire MK XIII quite good at delivering enough sustained G's to make the suit do its job. BTW, in the spit one could have the legs in a higher position on the rudder bar to compensate a bit.
It was the 190 that had the seat tilted back.
Later in the war I belive the Germans also had some sort of G suits, and also tested various positions in the cockpit. The famous ace Gunther Rall once crashlanded a jet while in a prone position. Quite scary he said, for the line of sight was so low!
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I'd rather have a ground vehicle model overall than pilot fatigue. This is something they can think about adding in after other aspects of the simulation are upgraded (not to mention more planes, vehicles, boats, objects are added).