Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Sandman on July 11, 2002, 01:14:05 AM
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Now THIS (http://www.detnews.com/2002/nation/0207/08/a03-531241.htm) is truly scary.
WASHINGTON -- Living under the continuing threat of terrorism that might prove worse than last September's attacks, Americans are faced with the dilemma of how much to sacrifice in civil liberties for safety.
A new poll showing that almost half of 1,000 surveyed are willing to curtail basic freedoms to protect their country evokes concern among some civil libertarians, while others assert that a wartime mentality of survivalism has evolved over the nine months since the terrorists struck.
...full article (http://www.detnews.com/2002/nation/0207/08/a03-531241.htm)
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All great injustices started with suspension of rights/practices for the "common" good.
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This shows just how many cowards we have in America...truly pathetic.
I bet that Klukker Ashcroft grinned like the Grinch when he saw this survey.
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LOL Weazel, there you had to go ruin a serious discussion.:D
Les
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People willing to give up their human rights...
Politicians trying to convince them of the necessity of doing so...
make me f*cking puke.
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your "freedoms" are worth alot when you are dead :rolleyes:
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So have you guys ever heard about the concept of "democracy"? Sometimes, people will vote for stuff you disagree with. Tough huh?
Suck it up whiners.
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Video surveillance w/Face Recognition, DNA fingerprints in state databases, Limitations of the "Versammlungsfreiheit" won't do jack to save us from another 9/11.
Well, you'd have the footage sooner.
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Originally posted by Hortlund
So have you guys ever heard about the concept of "democracy"? Sometimes, people will vote for stuff you disagree with. Tough huh?
Suck it up whiners.
Somebody woke up on the wrong side of the bed this morning!
Civil Rights are good
Giving them up is bad
That is my whine.
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Originally posted by Hortlund
So have you guys ever heard about the concept of "democracy"? Sometimes, people will vote for stuff you disagree with. Tough huh?
Suck it up whiners.
(http://www.gifs.net/animate/bobber.gif)
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I don't get it.
liberals = more gov't usually.
conservatives = less gov't usually.
so why do conservatives want more gov't and libs less gov't in this?
:confused:
:D
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That whole less government/more government democrat/republican argument hasn't been accurate for years.
It's just dogma that Limbaugh continues to rant.
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Originally posted by Eagler
your "freedoms" are worth alot when you are dead :rolleyes:
Right now, the odds that I'll have my freedoms taken are far greater than my odds of dying in a terrorist attack.
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Out of context. Makes a catchy headline though.
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Originally posted by Sandman_SBM
Right now, the odds that I'll have my freedoms taken are far greater than my odds of dying in a terrorist attack.
What "freedoms"?
Please list the "freedoms" you will "lose" when the admin does "what" exactly?
I don't see it .... I do exactly the same thing the same way today as I did a year, 5 years ago - no change here.
I'd be more concerned about a nutbag than a big bad "police state" :rolleyes:
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Just curious, but was the poll specific about which basic freedoms they were willing to curtail?
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If you wanted to make it an exceptionally alarming poll, just ask people if they want the xray machines in airports removed. If they say no, count them among those willing to curtail their rights.
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Originally posted by Fatty
If you wanted to make it an exceptionally alarming poll, just ask people if they want the xray machines in airports removed. If they say no, count them among those willing to curtail their rights.
Why? What expectation of privacy do you have in an airport?
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Originally posted by Sandman_SBM
That whole less government/more government democrat/republican argument hasn't been accurate for years.
It's just dogma that Limbaugh continues to rant.
Gotta agree here. The way I see it is that the Dems want one part of the governement to be big and the Reps want the other part to be big.
Eagler,
A lot of people died to give us those freedoms. They should not be given back, period. If I get killed in a terrorist attack so be it, at least the next generation will be free. What ever happened to the old saying those who would give up freedom for security deserve neither? Give me liberty or give me death?
We give up ANY freedom and the terrorist have won. I don't care if we lose cities in this war, it's a freaking war for god's sake people are going to die. When this thing is over, these freedoms won't be given back by the government power doesn't flow in that direction. They will take our freedoms and then somebody else's kids in the future will have to sacrifice their lives because we were to weak to fight for our rights now. Or worse, they won't have the knowledge or will to fight for liberty. I am not willing to give up ANY civil/constiutional rights. I am willing to fight for it too......
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Those are public buildings, why should I be searched just for walking in? Sure it's a small thing but it's the tiny steps that eat away civil liberties.
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Give me liberty or give me death?
:rolleyes:
WHAT FREEDOMS???
The "freedom" to carry a box cutter onto an airliner?
The "freedom" to joke you have a bomb in a public place?
The "freedom" not to have your face scanned and compared to a database of crooks & terrorists?
Please tell me a half of dozen specific "freedoms" you have lost or will lose if the admin does whatever to protect its citizens...
Why are the hippies & minorities the first ones to jump up and down about their "freedoms"?
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"A lot of people died to give us those freedoms. They should not be given back, period. If I get killed in a terrorist attack so be it, at least the next generation will be free. What ever happened to the old saying those who would give up freedom for security deserve neither? Give me liberty or give me death?
We give up ANY freedom and the terrorist have won. I don't care if we lose cities in this war, it's a freaking war for god's sake people are going to die. When this thing is over, these freedoms won't be given back by the government power doesn't flow in that direction. They will take our freedoms and then somebody else's kids in the future will have to sacrifice their lives because we were to weak to fight for our rights now. Or worse, they won't have the knowledge or will to fight for liberty. I am not willing to give up ANY civil/constiutional rights. I am willing to fight for it too......"
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No one has yet to answer Eaglers question. What rights are you talking about?
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>>Living under the continuing threat of terrorism that might prove worse than last September's attacks,<<
what proof is there of this statement?
oh, thats right, 'they' can't tell us. might comprimise security.
well, 'they' could tell us, but then 'they' would have to kill us.
but since we gonna die anyway..wtf?
:(
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Originally posted by Apache
No one has yet to answer Eaglers question. What rights are you talking about?
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time
with the blood of patriots and tyrants"
Thomas Jefferson
It's about that time......
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Originally posted by weazel
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time
with the blood of patriots and tyrants"
Thomas Jefferson
It's about that time......
aint it funny who the fight for liberty will bring together :) That's one of my favorite if not my favorit quotes from our founding fathers, though it scares the crap out of me.....
but Im still pissed more at the democrats than the republicans so sorry weazel :D but everyday I see something else that makes me shake my head and lose faith in the whole system....
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Why are the hippies & minorities the first ones to jump up and down about their "freedoms"?
Maybe because the minorities know what it's like to lose them?
But don't you worry Eagler. You will probably be one of the last to lose them, so it should have no affect on your life at all. And isn't that whats really important here?
:rolleyes:
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What do you guys thinkThomas Jefferson was saying?
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This type of thing (http://www.citypaper.net/articles/101801/news.godfrey.shtml) is happening more and more often.
Novel Security Measures
A local man was kept off a recent flight because of a book he was carrying.
Careful what you read!
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That doesn't really relate to the original survey MT, unless you're saying any passenger scrutiny at all should go. If you're not, then you're part of that half, you just draw the line at a different point than some others (though reading the article it seems the main factor contributing was simply ineptitude on the part of the screeners).
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Originally posted by Apache
No one has yet to answer Eaglers question. What rights are you talking about?
I'll start...
Privacy. After the attack, Sen. Judd Gregg of New Hampshire called for "a global prohibition on encryption products without backdoors for government surveillance."
More privacy... Look at the USA PATRIOT Act. It's one ugly piece of work.
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Originally posted by Sandman_SBM
Privacy. After the attack, Sen. Judd Gregg of New Hampshire called for "a global prohibition on encryption products without backdoors for government surveillance."
WOW, that one affects everyone of us, I don't think I'll be able to sleep tonite :rolleyes:
note the key word "global" - you really think this has a snowball chance in hell to pass??
THis "loss of freedom" crap is just another political move by the left to try and lower this admins popularity so they have half a chance in Nov - and some of the conservatives are helping
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Originally posted by Eagler
Originally posted by Sandman_SBM
Privacy. After the attack, Sen. Judd Gregg of New Hampshire called for "a global prohibition on encryption products without backdoors for government surveillance."
WOW, that one affects everyone of us, I don't think I'll be able to sleep tonite :rolleyes:
First they came for the Communists,
and I didn’t speak up,
because I wasn’t a Communist.
Then they came for the Jews,
and I didn’t speak up,
because I wasn’t a Jew.
Then they came for the Catholics,
and I didn’t speak up,
because I was a Protestant.
Then they came for me,
and by that time there was no one
left to speak up for me.
by Rev. Martin Niemoller, 1945
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I'm not speaking for me either. I don't use encryption. Maybe you see the point with this quote.
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Originally posted by Apache
What do you guys thinkThomas Jefferson was saying?
Personaly I think he knew that frim time to time the government would become out of control and that blood will have to be spilled to fix it. I think he knew that there would be weak people that would give up thier freedoms and that others would have to come in and fight to get them back.
I also think that he knew that on his own man will chose evil ways over good/honorable ways and that the power granted to the government from the people would eventually get out of control, much like it has now. I think he understood that once somebody has power they want more and don't want to surrender any of it....
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to save some of you time, I'll go ahead and post this site:
http://www.constitution.org/mil/mil_us.htm
"Grab your gun junior, we need to set this government Right again!"
LOL
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Note that these pages are for constitutional militias only, those dedicated to the preservation, protection, and defense of the Constitutions for the United States and of their state, open to all citizens so dedicated, regardless of race, color, gender, or views on nonconstitutional issues.
Sounds like a noble pursuit... Kinda like the ACLU. :D
BTW, Eagler. Have you noticed just how few militias there are? I'm surprised that California has so many compared to the other states.
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Originally posted by Eagler
to save some of you time, I'll go ahead and post this site:
http://www.constitution.org/mil/mil_us.htm
"Grab your gun junior, we need to set this government Right again!"
LOL
Thanks for the link, I'm going to check in to joining.....
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Udie, remember who the tyrannical government was when these great men were making such profound statements.
Said government wasn't trying to protect it's citizens from an outside, hostile force intent on killing us. Its goal was to usurp a fledgling country and to enslave (again) its people, thus the quote "Give me Liberty or give me death"!
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These are difficult times. I don't want to give up my freedom or take away anyone else's any more than anyone else. However, we already make concessions daily for security, i.e., you fly commercially you are going to be searched. That's what those metal detectors and xray machines do.
I'm not sure that I'm willing to wait until another large attack, maybe tens of thousands dead, before reexamining our security measures and perhaps increasing them.
Maybe I am willing to wait for another major attack, but I bet when it happens I'll be sorry I did.
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While I don't think the current steps being taken by the administration to provide increased security against terrorism pose any great threat to the freedom of the average American, I do not think that we should be complacent about the matter.
A police will not spring into full-blown existence in an instant. It will creep up on us one step at a time. If we are not vigilant, we may not even hear it coming.
Regards, Shuckins
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paraphrase:
We came to depend on out institutions, then we forgot how to do for ourselves. We were down and almost out, when John Conner taught us how to fight back. From Terminator.
Large numbers of weak people within a society will always create the environment for oppressive governments to thrive. But being human there will always be a few, then a group, then a flood to bring them down. the weak "always" become the majority of the casualties of the revolution. Then the whole cycle starts over again. Or at least it has happened that way repeatedly since the current cycle of recorded history.
And yes I know that a number of you will need to have weak defined, society defined and numbers defined ad nauseam. Hye Noi ;)
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Originally posted by Apache
Udie, remember who the tyrannical government was when these great men were making such profound statements.
Said government wasn't trying to protect it's citizens from an outside, hostile force intent on killing us. Its goal was to usurp a fledgling country and to enslave (again) its people, thus the quote "Give me Liberty or give me death"!
This is true, but I personaly don't see much of a diference in our current government. I am taxed at a rate of 1/4 to 1/3 of my total income. That leaves bairly enough for me to survivde and try and have a small amount of fun (read:persuit of happyness) I have ZERO sayso in what they take from me and what they do with it once they've got it. I disagree with probobly 75% of what they spend it on. If I stop paying they take me to jail, that's not much diferent than the King sending his henchmen to burn my farm and kill my livestock. The congress delegates it's athority to beaurocratic organizations that in turn make laws that I have to obey, and they were never even debated and when they do debate it's a series of 30 second soundbytes for the news back home. The judicial system is a joke.
About protection. That's the last thing our government seems to worry about, at least until 9/11 and to me they seem to be treating that more as a power grab than anything else. And the American people seem all too happy to let them do it :(
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Originally posted by Eagler
Why are the hippies & minorities the first ones to jump up and down about their "freedoms"?
Not really sure Eagler, but it could be that those two groups you mention get to see how transient and subjective the "freedoms" that the majority hold to are.
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Eagler,
You're buying a line of roadkill and being told its on the level.
We are NOT in any greater danger from a terrorist attack now than we were before September 11th, 2001. We are simply more aware of what the threat level is. The fact that the government is trying to portray it as an all out war for our very survival is simply fear mongering to scare people into supporting whatever the government says is required to win.
Not one freedom should be given up, no Constitutional rights should be curtailed or altered. None. To do anything else is, in my opinion, cowardly and handing the terrorists a free victory.
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this country is so far left, no one no how is gonna take away your "freedoms" <- specific freedoms no one here are able to list
if you believe that, I think you are swallowing BS. BS being spewed by the enemies of this admin. You think it's bad now, wait til Oct, you'll think your living in Red China if you believe their hogwash.
I'd rather be safe than sorry. As it truly hasn't affected our life style, cept for maybe the few of you who maybe arab looking :), I think your paranoid....
but hey, I'm worried about losing my retirement and you are worried about losing your un-named "freedoms". As long as we are worrying bout something, we should be happy :)
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i hope they won't stop immigration of europeans. I don't care about the other countries :)
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Damn Udie, I find myself agreeing totally with you :)
If you give away something to the government in wyas of freedom, you will never get it back. Once the bureaucrats have started reaping the fruits of having the extra power, they'll have an incentive to keep it. Even if they didn't, the full weight f a bureaucratic machine means it has a momentum that is very effective at keeping on going in whatever direction it already is going at.
A government is not supposed to be a big, sacred better knowing entity that knows what is best for you and acts out to do things that, in the end, favours you. In this country, people have this attitude about government.
Nay, a government is a collection of people who *want power* and *seek it*, often ruthlessly. Nowadays, they ahve to go through the democratic process, but do not fool yourself into thinking the desire in power in these people is any different from the Counts, Earls and Dukes of the past, because it ain't.
These people want *their* view on how things should be to prevail.
Do you want someone else to run your life?
'Give me liberty or give me death' sums it up pretty nicely, as does the other quote about giving up freedom for security.
Sheeit yanks. Those two very statements, IMHO, are what make you AMERICANS. Beyond being whacky with religion, fastfood, bad music and guns, of course. :D.
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Originally posted by Sandman_SBM
(http://www.gifs.net/animate/bobber.gif)
Why the amazinhunk attitude?
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Originally posted by midnight Target
Somebody woke up on the wrong side of the bed this morning!
Civil Rights are good
Giving them up is bad
That is my whine.
That is also your opinion. In theory, in a democracy, you are supposed to accept the fact that other people might have different opinions than you. You are also supposed to accept the fact that the people with the different opinions are allowed to work towards their goals, just as you work towards yours.
But apparently this is not correct when it comes to conservatives, because their opinions and goals are "dangerous" or "wrong".
You liberals and the hypocricy you are displaying make me wanna puke.
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Originally posted by Sandman_SBM
First they came for the Communists,
and I didn’t speak up,
because I wasn’t a Communist.
Then they came for the Jews,
and I didn’t speak up,
because I wasn’t a Jew.
Then they came for the Catholics,
and I didn’t speak up,
because I was a Protestant.
Then they came for me,
and by that time there was no one
left to speak up for me.
by Rev. Martin Niemoller, 1945
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I'm not speaking for me either. I don't use encryption. Maybe you see the point with this quote.
Speak up for the communists before it is too late?
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[Originally posted by StSanta
Damn Udie, I find myself agreeing totally with you :)
Well when you've got as many personalities swimming around in your head as I do, sooner or later one of them is bound to say something that everybody will agree with! :D :D
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well, as long as the terrorists only hit full bloodied liberals and conservatives only I'll be happy. We'd be better off with a few less people who blindly follow mantras. :D
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Udie, my personalities will gang up on your personalities.
PFFFEH! :D
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Originally posted by Hortlund
Why the amazinhunk attitude?
If I'm an amazinhunk for pointing out a troll, so be it.
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Originally posted by Hortlund
Speak up for the communists before it is too late?
You missed the point. It's not about communism.
It's about standing up for the rights of everyone and not just oneself.
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Originally posted by Hortlund
That is also your opinion. In theory, in a democracy, you are supposed to accept the fact that other people might have different opinions than you. You are also supposed to accept the fact that the people with the different opinions are allowed to work towards their goals, just as you work towards yours.
But apparently this is not correct when it comes to conservatives, because their opinions and goals are "dangerous" or "wrong".
You liberals and the hypocricy you are displaying make me wanna puke.
We're a republic. :)
In any case, the judicial branch spends a lot of time making certain that the majority doesn't trample over the rights of the minority. It's not nearly as simple as, "majority rule."
Were that the case in this country, words like "under God" in the Pledge of Allegiance would not be an issue.
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Originally posted by Sandman_SBM
We're a republic. :)
In any case, the judicial branch spends a lot of time making certain that the majority doesn't trample over the rights of the minority. It's not nearly as simple as, "majority rule."
Were that the case in this country, words like "under God" in the Pledge of Allegiance would not be an issue.
or civil rights in the 60's!
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" 'Necessity' is the plea for every infringement of human liberty; it is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves."--William Pitt
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Originally posted by Karnak
We are NOT in any greater danger from a terrorist attack now than we were before September 11th, 2001.
True, but since we were attacked 9/11 that means we were in imminent danger then as perhaps we are now. Not sure I understand your point. :confused:
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Originally posted by Sandman_SBM
We're a republic. :)
In any case, the judicial branch spends a lot of time making certain that the majority doesn't trample over the rights of the minority. It's not nearly as simple as, "majority rule."
Were that the case in this country, words like "under God" in the Pledge of Allegiance would not be an issue.
Oh really? I thought you were a monarchy.
Who said anyting about majority rule? I said that in a democracy you have to accept that other people work towards different goals. That is not what you liberals are doing.
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The Founding Fathers realized that the development of a dictatorial government was a gradual process. Therefore when they wrote the Constitution that inserted safeguards to slow it's development. "Checks and Balances" and "Separation of Powers" and the "Bill of Rights" (Yes, even the embarassing Second Amendment!) were created for that reason.
While they were justly proud of the government they had created, they did not trust it!
We should give up our freedoms only grudgingly! Once surrendered, we seldom get them back. The current crisis has been developing for years. The main job of the government is to provide security for the population. This responsibility was taken all too lightly in the last ten years. A government cannot provide adequate security during a time of growing danger by cutting the budget for the military and intelligence forces. Because of the cavalier attitude of the previous administration this is exactly what was done. Now, we are facing the consequences. The government's answer is to ask us to give up our freedoms.
Only a few, you understand, because the crisis is upon us and the danger is so great. As I said, we should give them up only grudgingly and then when the crisis is over demand them back!
Regards, Shuckins
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Originally posted by StSanta
Udie, my personalities will gang up on your personalities.
PFFFEH! :D
we don't think so! :D
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Originally posted by Hortlund
Speak up for the communists before it is too late?
The beauty of America is ITS freedom to follow your own beliefs. If your a commie, Nazie, KKK, Black Panther, or Tele-Tubby follower it doesnt mean I have to like you or support you but I have to respect your right to voice your beliefs.... even if it makes me sick.
The question to be asked it what sort of "freedoms" are we suppose to give up as Eagler stated/asked. Some restrictions are good ideas... some arent. IF they would say that free speech should be curtailed then I'd say..uhuh... heavy gun control... uh uh..nope notta gonna be followed by me. If they tell me I gotta give up my Johnny Rambo w/a Spork when I travel on a plane then... okay if you insist.
This entire security thing isnt rocket science even though some of our brilliant politicians seem to think it is... then again I dont think much of most of them anyway.
xBAT
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Yeah I agree. But the thing that puzzles me is that many people seem to be of the opinion that they would rather see 70 million dead from a B attack using smallpox virus than have law enforcement agencies do ethnical profiling...to take one example.
Those people scare me.
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Originally posted by Hortlund
Yeah I agree. But the thing that puzzles me is that many people seem to be of the opinion that they would rather see 70 million dead from a B attack using smallpox virus than have law enforcement agencies do ethnical profiling...to take one example.
Those people scare me.
well if they don't come from America the constitution doesn't apply and if they don't like being profile they should stay back in arabia......
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yeah, but it doesnt quite work like that now does it. And profiling was just one example. Another example would be how long it took for the FBI to get a search warrant on that Mouhami-dude's laptop.
The list can be very long Udie.
My opinion is that in a war against terrorism, where the terrorists want nothing but the total annihilation of the USA, and all americans, it is foolish to force the law enforcement agencies to fight that war with both hands tied behind their backs.
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Originally posted by Hortlund
yeah, but it doesnt quite work like that now does it. And profiling was just one example. Another example would be how long it took for the FBI to get a search warrant on that Mouhami-dude's laptop.
The list can be very long Udie.
My opinion is that in a war against terrorism, where the terrorists want nothing but the total annihilation of the USA, and all americans, it is foolish to force the law enforcement agencies to fight that war with both hands tied behind their backs.
I agree. BUT :D These freedoms were paid for in blood. How many 19 year olds gave their lives on 6-6-44? How many 17 year olds. They NEVER got to enjoy anything that they paid for. So I'm going to give them up without kicking and scratching and clawing and spitting and hissing and fighting, if it saves one liberty it will be worth it.
Now, going on what eagler asked at the begining of the thread about which rights have we been asked to give up. So far really I haven't noticed any of my liberties disapearing. That being said, I think that there could/will be a big fight here soon on what exactly is a right/liberty and what is a "priviledge" I don't think most Americans know the diference. The stuff they do in airports I have no real problem with. That's a public place and nobody has the right to fly or the expectation of privacy in a public place. But see the lawyers will get involved and then they will say well gee if the flying is not a right, then driving is not a right either and so we don't need a warrant to search your car. That's the way our people think over here, always cross referencing things that resemble some sort of presidence. How many in our government are lawyers? SHUDDER! too many! :mad:
I agree that we must be vigalent to fight terror, I don't want anymore terrorist acts here. BUT :D my/our rights are more important to me. Now, I look back at what the WW2 generation did as far as scarifice. Simply amazing, but back then there was a lot of trust in the government (just after the depression) so I think people were more willing to suspend their liberties. I am not against curtailing certain liberties. I just want some sort of mechanism in place that will make it easier/possible to get them back when this mess is over or even before. Then there are some rights that I will NOT suspend, curtail, give up or anything other than fight for, my right to privacy being one of them.
If the government would do it's job and fight this war the way it should be we wouldn't have to give up our rights. The only ones that would be giving up rights would be non-citizen arabs. Starting with every Saudi national in this country, they should be out first. But wait, that's racial profiling and God forbid we take away the rights of a terrorist when we have so many rights that they can take first.
anyway that's a rambling version of what scare's me on this issue.
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My opinion is that the war on terrorism is a fool's errand.
Terrorism is a tool, not an agenda.
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Originally posted by Sandman_SBM
We're a republic. :)
In any case, the judicial branch spends a lot of time making certain that the majority doesn't trample over the rights of the minority. It's not nearly as simple as, "majority rule."
Were that the case in this country, words like "under God" in the Pledge of Allegiance would not be an issue.
Aye, a representative republic at that.
Small groups vote to send someone they can not all agree on to represent their group. This groups representative is hated by almost all the other groups that are sending representatives also. Now all these representatives attempt to pass laws that all the groups agree with, (although the whole exercise makes no logical sense at all, ;))
Democracy
Four Wolves and one lamb voting on what is for lunch.
(although the whole exercise makes no logical sense at all, ;))
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Those who would sacrifice liberty for security are deserving of neither. Ben Franklin (this is a quote from memory, may not be exact)
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The true measure of a democracy is how well it protects the minority, not how well it serves the majority.
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I thought Hitler died at towards the end of WWII? I didn't know he spawned as Ashcroft? Hmm. Some Americans are clueless and REQUIRE the govt. to lead them by the hand.
Masher
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Im far more scared of Ashcroft than i ever will be of Bin Laden. The "American Freedom Crops." are alot closer to what the nazis did. Recruting people to spy on other people, "detentions" without probable cause. Ashcroft should be bombed to hell for how many rights he took away from innocent people, before we even worry about Afganistan.
And dont even get me started on Iraq, what an almight load of dog crap.
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What rights did Ashcroft take away from innocent people?
Les
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Found a good quote that I thought I'd toss into the mix here.
These are the words of James Madison, who (if any single person could be) is considered the father of our Constitution, and the strongest proponent of the Bill of Rights.
"The means of defense against foreign danger historically have become the instruments of tyranny at home."
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the gov't wants us citizens (US) to actively defend the nation...
what the hell is wrong with each of us defending our personal freedoms ?
UDIE hit the nail on the head... The judicial system is a joke.
with out proper punishment (checks and balances) laws are a joke.
AND.. the idea of our government was "for the people, BY the people. What we have now are 'interest groups' and 'lobyists'. what the politicians are really doing is lining their own pockets at our expense. Don't be fooled.
support the country you live in but don't be blinded by it.
Absolute power corrupts absolutely. Don't let the gov't have absolute power.
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Man Udie, this was the best thing you ever wrote... It was making me tear up.
Eagler,
A lot of people died to give us those freedoms. They should not be given back, period. If I get killed in a terrorist attack so be it, at least the next generation will be free. What ever happened to the old saying those who would give up freedom for security deserve neither? Give me liberty or give me death?
We give up ANY freedom and the terrorist have won. I don't care if we lose cities in this war, it's a freaking war for god's sake people are going to die. When this thing is over, these freedoms won't be given back by the government power doesn't flow in that direction. They will take our freedoms and then somebody else's kids in the future will have to sacrifice their lives because we were to weak to fight for our rights now. Or worse, they won't have the knowledge or will to fight for liberty. I am not willing to give up ANY civil/constiutional rights. I am willing to fight for it too......
Sob...
Then Hortland doesn’t understand the United States Bill of Rights or the Constitution I bet he’s a bit envious.
That is also your opinion. In theory, in a democracy, you are supposed to accept the fact that other people might have different opinions than you. You are also supposed to accept the fact that the people with the different opinions are allowed to work towards their goals, just as you work towards yours.
But apparently this is not correct when it comes to conservatives, because their opinions and goals are "dangerous" or "wrong".
You liberals and the hypocricy you are displaying make me wanna puke.
Sure they legislate law all the time but there’s certain rights and freedoms like gun ownership, the right to own property, the right to assemble and associate with whomever you choose, the right to due process, the right to vote, the right to privacy to your person and your papers and many more. Somebody want to come along and take these away.... I stand with Udie... they can drag our dead bodies away.
well if they don't come from America the constitution doesn't apply and if they don't like being profile they should stay back in arabia......
Opps Udie, a little booboo there.. you are forgiven not everybody reads every word of every Article. This is one of the reasons the United States is so popular with emigrants
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The best way to defend freedom in the United States is to become a member of the NRA and make contributions whenever possible. It's not about guns, it's about freedom.
Les
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Well, "We damn liberals that make you puke" arent always the problem. Infact i dont think you know what a real liberal is. If your thinking about democrats your not looking at a liberal.
Why cant people see that the only diffrece between democrats (usually associated with liberals) and republicans (conservitive) is the democrats get slightly less money from a slighty less scary group of special intrests.
In the end all the people that are supposed to be in service to you are really trying to more or less line there pockets and stay in office as long as they can by passing bills with fancy sounding names like "The Patriot Act".
Speaking of the patriot act, neither the house nor congress even READ the bill before voting, and passing it. Luckily all it was was crap that the gov could already do, but just added more hoops to jump through before they could.
My big problem with america these days is no one will question what the gov is doing! Why all of a sudden is exercising your right to free speech and saying "Hey, maby detaining people without charges is wrong" and i dont mean the people in gitmo bay. There are still about 30 people being held, initally under ashcrofts orders, without any charges including a lawyer that took up one of the cases of these people without charges.
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Oh and those real liberals i was talkign about are the Libertarians, and the Social Democrats (the ladder i am a dues paying member of, and yes, im a US citizen)
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Udie and Wlfgng have hit the goldmine. The govt. is getting their way right now, they are slowing dwindling the checks and balances against THEM.
Damn right people have died for the freedoms we have and joining the NRA is not the answer. Continually NOT VOTING or vote wisely is the answer. Just like the majority of the Clinton bashers voted him in, in the first place. "The W" was the ONLY Rep. I voted for. I vote mosty Independant. Most people laugh, but it is my way of protesting the constant flow of crooks, drug users, and toejamheads who call themselves "politicians". Nowhere in the Constitution of The United States of America does it say VOTE REPUBLICAN or DEMOCRAT. The majority of the country has read something to that effect. They're all crooks.
I own a handgun, big deal? I won't use it unless I need too. If they become banned, someone stole it.
Veterans fallen and living Thank You for defending the "REAL United States", our rights.
Masher
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Originally posted by Leslie
The best way to defend freedom in the United States is to become a member of the NRA and make contributions whenever possible. It's not about guns, it's about freedom.
Les
Heh Bama . Now THERES a can of worms begging to be opened. :D
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Originally posted by Hortlund
Speak up for the communists before it is too late?
If someone wants to be a communist, KKK member, or advocate repealing child-sex laws, that is their right in America. The FIRST AMENDMENT to the US Constitution protects these crazy folks from actions by the government for merely having a meeting or expressing their messed up opinions.
We also have the right to denounce and insult such people, as well as boneheads from little frozen wasteland countries who don't know a thing about the USA.
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Agreed masherbum, the gov is definetly chipping away at the checks and balances system.
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First let me say that I didn't read the entire article nor the posts here. I just want to give my opinion on suspension of freedoms.
The short version. roadkill!!!!
The long version. Suspending freedoms will do more to make this country a mockery of what the founders strove to produce. Those freedoms guaranteed by a constitution are the main feature that sets our country apart from a totalitarian regime anywhere on the globe. They are the basis and foundation of the lifestyle Americans take so foolishly for granted. They do not get the idea that if freedoms are suspended their lifestyles will end up being seriously curtailed "for the public good" which, of course, will be defined by someone else.
This society has been the recipient of a culture that has led them to think that the world "owes" them a peaceful exiistance and that any danger is a "voluntary" item. Sorry to disillusion you but the world does NOT owe anyone anything and is in fact a rather hazardous place to live. Deal with it or leave. :rolleyes:
One of my favorite quotes is: "Life is a full contact sport, no one gets out alive."
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Give this man a cigar!
He gets it. :cool:
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Sandman, Those who have to take anothers liberty away, even temporarliy, often understand it's meaning far more than than the common "man". They are also closer to the victims than are others and have been victims many times themselves. Think about it.
PS one of the very first things we learned in training was that we no longer had first ammendment rights, just because of our job. We also lost a significant part of the 4th and fifth ammendments as well.
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to you Mav. Well said sir.
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Originally posted by Maverick
Sandman, Those who have to take anothers liberty away, even temporarliy, often understand it's meaning far more than than the common "man". They are also closer to the victims than are others and have been victims many times themselves. Think about it.
PS one of the very first things we learned in training was that we no longer had first ammendment rights, just because of our job. We also lost a significant part of the 4th and fifth ammendments as well.
It's okay Mav... we can agree. You'll be okay...
Breathe...