Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: garrido on August 06, 2001, 04:09:00 AM
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Hello guys:
It seems that the force that a pilot does on joy in 50 AH this limited lbs.
I propose the following thing:
in setup a bar graduated between 25 and 75 is created lbs of force, that this directly related to the fatigue of the pilot (including the entrance in blackout and redout) in such a way that to less lbs of pressure in the Stick the airplane moves but slowly but the fatigue of the pilot is smaller also, if it chooses but force of stick the speed of answer of ailerons, will be but fast rudder and elevators, but also greater will be the accumulated fatigue, as it is accumulated entered blackout/redout and use of sticks with greater or smaller force the fatigue of the pilot wrath in increase, until for this reason but slow, asi can be given a little but realism to the game.
The same podria to take control of the wearing down of the motor.
She is one devises, surely that to you happens something better to them.
A greeting
SUPONGO
Hola:
Parece que la fuerza que un piloto hace sobre el joy en AH esta limitada a 50 lbs. propongo lo siguiente:
en el setup se crea una barra graduada entre 25 y 75 lbs de fuerza, que este directamente relacionada con la fatiga del piloto (incluyendo la entrada en blackout y redout) de tal manera que a menos lbs de presion en el Stick el avion se mueva mas lentamente pero el cansancio del piloto sea menor tambien, si elige mas fuerza de stick la velocidad de respuesta de alerones, timon y elevadores sera mas rapida, pero el cansancio acumulado tambien sera mayor, a medida que se va acumulando entradas en blackout/redout y uso de sticks con mayor o menor fuerza el cansancio del piloto ira en aumento, hasta que por esta razon la respuesta del avion sea cada vez mas lenta, asi se puede dar un poco mas de realismo al juego.
Lo mismo se podria hacer con el desgaste del motor.
Es una idea, seguro que a ustedes se les ocurre algo mejor.
Un saludo
Supongo
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Interesting idea, difficult to sell here.
Knowing this I still would like to add to the concept.
Fatigue would increase during all times of activity, especially during high G loading. Periods of inactivity would decrease fatigue. During the heat of battle, when your strength is waning, one could press the A button for a shot of adrenaline that would temporarily increase strength. During the adrenaline rush your fatigue is advancing at an even greater pace than normal.
Instead of a graphic display, the fatigue could be indicated by grunting and panting. Or maybe it could be indicating by a blurring around the edges of the screen caused by the sweat in your eyes.
…anyway, interesting idea.
F.
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pilot fatigue shouldn't be modelled until computer programs can digitally render each players build and strength.
That way the playing field won't be level in the stamina department.
The only thing "pilot fatigue" modelling does, at this point, is make it easier for BnZ pilots to stay fast and get kills because they keep the TnB guy turning and wasting his energy (his own energy, not the plane's energy).
-SW
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I'm bored, so I am going to argue with you SW. :)
That way the playing field won't be level in the stamina department.
Why shouldn’t it be level? Are you saying that if this was modeled those players with physical handicaps should be at a disadvantage in the game? No two aircraft produced are identical, yet in our game all Fw190a5’s, all P-51D’s, all Spit IX’s have the same exact performance. (assuming similar load-outs)
So many people here say, “Its not the plane it’s the pilot”, well the pilot gets tired.
I am not looking for a BnZ advantage over the TnB folk. Higher speeds would require greater still stick forces increasing fatigue. I like it to be a challenge. Most of my fights are on the edge of blackout anyway, and this feature would effect me in the extreme. I would like to see it though, as it would make the game more interesting and captivating, as would a great many other features we are not likely to see.
F.
“for discussion purposes only”
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I never said anything about disabilities. I don't know why you played that card, that's pretty rediculous.
However, I would like to think that I would/should have an advantage for myself being physically fit and lifting weights over someone who has a beer gut the size of a trash can and if he pulled too many Gs it would shrink him to a midget.
I don't see how modelling pilot fatigue would make this game any better.
"Crap, my virtual pilot is tired and I can't move my stick anymore!"
Sounds like nothing but fun there.
-SW
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Based on the way people are discussing it, it seems as if this will just be some kind of resource to manage, much like fuel, WEP, ammo, etc. I can just see people saying, "I woiuld love to help you, but my pilot is tired and needs to return to base for a nap."
Imagine the whining that would result should this ever be introduced. Plus, are the pilots all the same? I mean, Americans were, generally, much bigger than Japanese during WW2. Does this make them able to hold more g's or less g's? Since the later periods of the war, the Axis pilots were less experienced, does that mean that the pilots of the late-war LW pilots don't have the same ability of the late-war USAAF/RAF/VVS pilots? This could be cool, if it were done in a way that would make everyone happy, but that isn't going to happen. This is a potential can of worms that is best to be left closed until there is some way to address the multiple issues that this would bring out.
<edit> Also, until EVERYONE has forcefeedback sticks, chairs, monitors, etc., this would just be more or less a novelty feature that people might like for about a week before they are begging to have it removed. <edit>
I also think we can all agree that there are several things that need to be done/looked at/updated/added before this is even really considered.
Just my 2/5 of a nickel's worth.
-math
[ 08-06-2001: Message edited by: Mathman ]
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If you want to make a good model of pilot fatigue, get somebody with experience. I know of a few jet fighter and acro jockeys who play this game and HTC should hit them up for info if they haven't already.
Relating to the player's fitness level would be pretty silly though. Kind of like playing a computer hockey game where my player skates like I do (falls down all the time) LOL! :)
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Funked, that's not my point.
My point is: Why would we model pilot fatigue? It only does one thing, to level the playing field and make people who like to yank 'n bank in furballs suffer while the guys who like to go fast, go straight and turn left (Nascar) don't get hit with large penalties.
I brought up the point of each player's relative fitness level for that sole reason. Why penalize a guy who likes to keep his plane in the pit with the other guys, fighting his way out if his body could in fact hold up to that kind of punishment for more than 20 minutes?
The period of time that a dogfight lasts here is less than 20 minutes and probably closer to 5 to 10 minutes.
You honestly think a pilot will be exhausted in that amount of time?
Maybe, if he hasn't had any excercise in 50 years.
-SW
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The period of time that a dogfight lasts here is less than 20 minutes and probably closer to 5 to 10 minutes.
You honestly think a pilot will be exhausted in that amount of time?
Maybe, if he hasn't had any excercise in 50 years.
Definitely YES if a pilot constantly pulls over 6 G.... like some of our UFO friends :) Actually I would like to have option Black Out to be removable during Offline, therefore i would be able to see if N1K2J can make a 10G turn or not :)
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SW that's not a bad point. I would model it just to be thorough, but in a WW2 fighter which can only sustain at most 3 g, it's not going to be a big factor.
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Hello friend's:
moan to say it, but seems that all the ideas that occur to match of this game great hit the do-nothing policy of which they have complied to.
The pilot of BnZ sufria fatigue, but I imagine that the one of TnZ if too much G's even used but.
Remember the combats of Saburo Sakai and as it were gotten tired of as much turning and turning.
Not to the do-nothing policy.
A greeting
SUPONGO
Hola amigos:
lamento decirlo, pero parece que todas las ideas que se dan para hacer de este juego un gran juego chocan con el inmovilismo de los que se han acomodado a el.
El piloto de BnZ sufria fatiga, pero imagino que el de TnZ si usaba demasiadas G's aun mas.
Recuerde los combates de Saburo Sakai y como se iba cansando de tanto virar y virar.
No al inmovilismo.
Un saludo
SUPONGO
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Originally posted by SWulfe:
I don't see how modelling pilot fatigue would make this game any better.
Bf109 - 40 pounds of stick force/G. Extremely narrow cockpit. No rudder trim and constant need to push with one leg.
P47 - 7 pounts of stick force/G. Spaceous cockpit. Very well-balanced, trim available.
So the at high speeds, especially at altitude a pilot in P47 was rutinely able to outturn a pilot in Bf109 and in a short time exaust him.
Ever tried to aim a gun weighting 60 pounds?
I could loan you my 64-pound longbow and let you try a shot. I could hit a quarter at 20 yards but after 6 shots in a row I needed fifteen minutes break.
I can shoot my wife's 40 pound bow indefinitely.
Even simpler, try to run a mile with 7-pound load. Then try one with 40-pound load.
After the run try some precision activity, like playing a piano or target shooting.
I bet the results before and after the run will be quite different due to fatigue.
miko
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put pilot fatigue in a "historical/realistic" arena, leave it out of the MA. It can go along with your no extra visual cues. :)
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Honestly, if you are going to ask me "have I lifted"...
I worked in a hardware store, my main job was lugging around 80lb concrete bags.
I lifted around 30-40 in 2 hours every couple days because we had a contractor come in who would buy two truck loads.
So, what was the question?
-SW
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You train swulf? Wieght lifting that is. I do... always wondered if it would be an advantage to be bigger or smaller when pulling G's...
xBAT
[ 08-07-2001: Message edited by: batdog ]
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Is this another thread about SW? They all seem to end up being about him sooner or later.
We avarage eyesight as if all pilots in ww2 were the same.
We average G resistance as if all pilots in WW2 were the same.
But we cant avarage stanima for some reason to do with SW lifting bags of cement.
Well I guess we cant then.. But it seems to me that we could assume that all of us are some average pilot in WW2 and if we perform a given manuver needing a given amount of exertion then we could penalize a player in some generic way. Lessen his resistance to Gs or Lower the stick force he can exert and limit the manuverability of his plane.
Seems a worthy potential addition to me.
Fully rested everyone is equal but if they push themselves too far they will be at a disadvantage vs a fresh pilot. It doesnt penalize turn fighters specifically, It penalizes people that cant ballance the inclusion of yet another depletable resource in the game.
Maybe start by limiting the strength of a wounded pilot. See how that works and what the issues are. Then maybe broaden it later.
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Pongo, I hear they are removing LuftWeener planes..
Run along.
"We avarage eyesight as if all pilots in ww2 were the same."
Yeah man, except you forgot that if you can't see well in the real world.. putting icons above the planes, you are still going to have problems seeing.
Didn't think about that one, did ya?
-SW
[ 08-07-2001: Message edited by: SWulfe ]
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xBat, yes I weight lift.
I was watching Discovery wings a few years back and they had an interview with some pilots that fly jets for the USAAF.
They said that upper body strength, muscle mass, and ability to strain neck/shoulder/chest/back muscles will keep more blood in your head and help you endure more Gs for a longer period of time.
-SW
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A few comments on this discussion.
I think it is an interesting factor to incorporate in AH, even if only for the spice, - Pilot grunting and complaining :D
This would probably not make such a difference, since sustained G's also bleed away your E's, so if this was incorporated, it would probably kick in when viciously fighting from high alt to the deck.
It could change long fights a bit, - a Spitfire starting to roll slower because of the pilot getting tired in his arms....the 109 vs p47 example mentioned in this thread, etc. etc.
Someone said :
SW that's not a bad point. I would model it just to be thorough, but in a WW2 fighter which can only sustain at most 3 g, it's not going to be a big factor.
This is not entirely right. The late ww2 fighters could sustain above 6 G's for quite some time. This was reason enough to begin using pressure suits, which I belive both the English and the Germans did, - some 262 pilots had them, and the English were trying them out as well, first in Hurricanes, but since the Hurries used could ONLY sustain about 5G, they moved on to late model Spitfires...
Reading the autobiographies of ww2 pilots one can also assume that pilot fatique was a large factor, and it would even take one good dogfight to exhaust a pilot.
About the size of pilots, there is one more thing. The tall pilot would usually pass out in a tight G turn before the short one, so there the Japanese are the winners!!
However, the generally STRONG pilot would be able to do more extreme maneuvers at high speeds especially, and the FIT pilot would be able to stay through more abuse than others...
I guess that featuring fatique is maybe not so simple after all. But an interesting point :)
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Coolies Swulf. Heh... yea I bet squating and dead lifts would help with that tolorence some :) I've been lifting for years... its saved me from some serious injury several times. The wife digs it too. :)
xBAT
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Sometimes i think the USA are indeed a communist country. Do not worry guys the god market pleases to all! (http://www.targetware.net) ;)
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They said that upper body strength, muscle mass, and ability to strain neck/shoulder/chest/back muscles will keep more blood in your head and help you endure more Gs for a longer period of time.
I disagree wulf.. When you have very large viens, and are very muscular,... the arteries, as well as other underlying tissue enables large capacity for collapsing. A person that has a good physical build with fatty layers would most likey have a better ability to restrain G's.
While in the Air force I have spoken with a few pilots,(F-16,F-18,A-10,B-2) and while some of having a muscule mass is good, it is also very bad.
The most important factor that all here have missed though is the distance from the Heart to the Brain. It has been clearly identified that women pilots are able to withstand more G's than men, due to the shortened distance from heart to brain. Less distance for blood to travel and thus less effort.
Also when pulling g forces in excess of 3+ your neck muscles and back muscles play a part but not nearly as much as , ... the Leg mucles quads, calfs, and others that are detrimental to keeping the blood in the upper cavity of your body.
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That just reminded me about the legs, they would strain their legs to keep blood in the upper part of their body.
Other than that, everything I said came from USAAF fighter pilots.
-SW
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SW
'Yeah man, except you forgot that if you can't see well in the real world.. putting icons above the planes, you are still going to have problems seeing.
Didn't think about that one, did ya?
-SW
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No I didnt. And reading it I dont understand it, so I probebly would never have thought of it.
Dots appear at a set distance in the game. They turn into an ID at a set distance in the game. In real life the dot would appear to people at differnt ranges based on their eye sight. They would ID the con at different ranges based on eyesight.(all other conditions being identical)So visibility is averaged in the game.(asuming we can all see our monitors)
Strength is also averaged. No one gets the advantage of Robert Johnsons arms to wrench his jug arround(or we all do..) Why not stanima?
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You are still going to have problems seeing something on the monitor if your eyesight is bad.
The strength goes hand in hand with stamina, so as you lose stamina you can no longer control your plane?
"Look at me, I'm the top ace because I can make people tired!"
wow!
-SW
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Just to let you's know Size of a person has NO bearing on fatigue.
NUTTZ
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- I've just had a 10 minute battle with 2 109's while flying my Hellcat. Due to the uber nature of allied design, I manage to dispatch of both 109s and begin to return home. I am then bounced by a 190F-8 and am outmaneuvered. I look down at my fatigue guage and discover it is because I was tired out from the previous flight. Fatigue guage.
- I'm flying along and see a furball. I know that if I wait long enough, the participants in the action will be too tired to be able to perform any hard maneuvers and they should be easy pickins.
In WW2, pilots were fatigued for many reasons. I'd tend to say that g-force induced stress was way down on the list.
Implimenting this will not be more historical. It will not be more realistic. It will not be more accurate. It will simply be gamey.
AKDejaVu
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SW are we debating whether fatigue was a major factor in ww2 air combat?
or whether it can be modeled in the game?
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I'm arguing what are you modelling? And why?
Are you modelling getting tired from dogfighting for all but 10 minutes? (uhm)
Are you modelling getting tired from the above, and beginning to black out quicker and at less Gs?
Are you modelling.. just what are you modelling and what reasons do you have to believe it should be modelled?
No books, no "I heard...", no "well I get tired behind the wheel of my car"...
I want you to tell me exactly what experience you have had lugging a fighter's joystick (hey guys, don't forget the leverage they have sitting in a seat strapped to the plane with their feet on the rudder pedals for yet, MORE leverage) at an average of whatever weight you want to use and what speeds.
This seems to me more of a "it seems cool, I have no idea if it's realistic or not..." thing...
EDIT: I have my suspicions at to why some people want these feature..
-SW
[ 08-07-2001: Message edited by: SWulfe ]
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I also find it interesting, that all of you have chosen to ignore that in these history books that you are no doubt placing your faith in to get certain things modelled... that you don't read "After 20 minutes of circling around the skies, I was finally so exhausted I took my hands off the controls and was shot down"
Nature gave us adrenaline for a reason...
-SW
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You seem to be saying that fatigue is not relevent in WW2 fighter combat.
Right?
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Guys I'm going on 60, this forcefeedback stick fatigues me. ;)
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I am saying it is not relative at the amount of time we dogfight for, the amount of time we spend in the air, and the amount of time that we are generally playing.
There is absolutely _NO_ relation between Aces High, WarBirds, WW2Ol with the real World War 2. The only connections are with the names and the way things are created.
I simply do not understand how you can think that what happens in a real war can be carried over to a game that operates under the notion of simply recreating air combat, not managing a *ahem* virtual pilot with a *ahem* guage that tells the player his *ahem* virtual pilot is getting tired.
It's so... well fake.
-SW
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I think that Adding the Fatigue factor shouldnt be based on a set "GAUGE" or measure of how much over the long run.
What should and could be implmented could be At a given set G say around 6 (where aces currently starts blacking out pretty good) Possibly reduce control at those times.
It would add realisim in a certain way, but then again other factors would have to play in to the equation. (not all pilots are created equal). In aces they may be Made to be equal across the board.
A question I have however is... What planes offer better Seat positioning to deal/cope with flight under high G.??
If those who are not familiar with what I am talking about, I am comparing something to the likes of what a Modern Fighter say an... F-16 (with a almost 45 degree slant) vs somehting like an F15 that feels about 85 Degrees) has.
I am not sure if this is even modeled into aces.
Anyway back to the G thing ;)
Implement it,... it could be good for the Immersive factor as well as almost make everyone fly with more care. Instead of Insta-furball-quake-fastpaced-action-sim-shooter. :D
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More fake then G forces? or bullet dispersion? or clouds?
I never said anything about a gauge. Is there a red out gauge? Dont you agree that the strength of the pilot must allready be factored into AH in some way? Isnt a planes manuverability somewhat limited by the strength of the pilot(in a non boosted non fly by wire plane). A certain stick force must be assumed in the normal stats and there for in AH. But there is no strength gauge that I have seen.
How can you play such a gamey game...
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If you are talking about the pressure that can be applied to a stick and modify the plane's manueverability with that, I don't care.
But, if you are saying that you want our pilot to suffer fatigue and begin to not be able pull as much as he could when the fight first begin, then I will care.
-SW
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Hmm,
I guess where this is all going is that we will have to whine to HTC for a G-suit and ofcoarse this will have to be heavily PERKED hehe! :) Releif tubes for long flights will be on the drawing board but what I want to know is how are we going to model a hangover for the Fat Drunk Bastards? :D
Salute
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Well... I quess my girlie pics would have to go as all the blood would be in the section below my waist ... :)
xBAT
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SW
So your answer then is that strength and fatigue would be issues in WW2 fighter combat but should not be in the game.
I myself realize that we cannot give the game a realistic fatigue system anymore than we can give it a realistic radar system. But it is interesting to theorize how the game might be changed to have fatigue like features. Sort of a fatigue simulation.
I think a different wound system might be a neat start. Just to see how things could be affected. Reding out the pilot like he is sort of passing out is not realisic! Limit his strength... slow his head movements down. Slow the response of his flight commands. Delay his trim settings for 1 second.
Remember the fatigue system in Falcon 3.0? Where after 2 flights your pilots were layed up in bed for a week and you had to use the other weirdos in you squad. that was lame.. not like that..
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I like the idea of different effects caused by your pilot being wounded, but this pilot fatigue thing would be more of a detrement than a nice addition. I'm all for realistic situations, and even unfair sides in scenarios is fun for me, but this could skew things to the rediculous.
Imagine coming out of a knockdown, dragout dogfight on top, great fight and you won. Now, you meet up with another enemy, and you've got three choices:
1- Run, and hope to god he's got a slower plane than you do.
2- HO, and hope that he is up for it and that you win.
3- Get in a fight with him in which you have no possible chance of surviving because your plane is performing as tho' it's got an elevator & aileron missing because your pilot is "fatigued".
Although you could face the same problems with effects to a wounded pilot, you'd actually be penalized for something going wrong. You got shot, now you have to deal with the consequences.
SOB
[ 08-08-2001: Message edited by: SOB ]
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Okay, now adding fatigue from wounds makes sense. You can't do too much manuevering without risking out blacking out sooner, and you can't.. well I'm sure you have better ideas than I do.
I do not remember Falcon 3.0, I was a prophead, the only jet games I played were the Jane's series... and they were just, well, games.
I do think that fatigue was a huge factor in the real war. I mean, these guys got like 6-8 hours of sleep (I'm tired after 8 hours.. sooo), they got up at 4-5:30AM in the morning, briefed (slept) for 2 hours, then took off and were exposed to a warm comfortable sun in a cold, cold environment (so it felt warm and they got sleepy).
Then in combat, it was a lot of manuevering, assuming they saw the enemy, and no doubt worked up a sweat. I believe they would be exhausted *after* a dogfight, but during it, I think they were too preoccupied to care.
I don't think it's possible to give a model as to how the human body can get tired. Maneuvering will make you tired, granted, but when your adrenaline kicks in, you won't be tired until after the fact.
I just think building a fatigue model will make the focus of the game be on managing your pilot, which in turn means everyone will grab the latest, greatest, fastest, bestest plane in the game.
Instead of <N1K2, F4U-1C, SpitIX> whines we'll have <P51D, 190D9, 109G10> whines because everyone wants to keep their pilot from getting tired. The only way to do that is make a few passes, not turn and keep going straight... like Nascar....
-SW
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Fatigue has an impact on G-tolerance. It does not have an impact (or very little) on whether you can actually move the controls (unless of course you are unconscious and thus can't move the controls) ;)
At most, a "fatigue factor" might produce a very SLIGHT decrease in your ability to get FULL deflection at very HIGH speed. It would, however, limit the G you could take before your vision was effected, and how long it takes you to "recover" before you could pull your personal "max G" again.
It's a good feature to put in, but you have to do it JUST right, and "realistically," or it's just a bogus difficulty factor. If they put it in without asking the real acro and fighter pilots first how it should work, it'll be wrong, I guarantee it. You have to have "felt" it, to know how it should work.
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Well those are valid points. I looked last night for mentions of fatigue in some of the books I have but found only fatigue related to searching all the time.I will keep looking.
I have to agree that the work involved in writing a fatigue system would not be as well spent as many other things I could think of, but it is interesting to think of how the bodys limitations could be elegantly expressed in a game.
Maybe in general the views should change at a speed that shows how the turn is done. Instantanios for the side and top views cause your mostly using peripheral or turning your eyes only. But anything outside of that first turn happens slower. Cause A your head turns slower then your eyes and B your eyes really need a sec to adjust to what they see if you fling your head around.
The big reason people probebly want fatigue is to prevent the constant bat turns that some planes are capapble of in AH but the pilots wouldnt be able to maintain. But really the pilots here have way fewer chances to seperate in a slower plane then they would in real life. The abundent enviromental obsticals and the lack of an Icon made separating in RL far easier even if your plane was slower. So letting someone turn for longer is not necessarily a bad ballanceing concesion for taking away most of the chances they would have to escape.
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What Jedi said.
Also, don't discount adrenaline.
I did my "personal best" highest/longest standing jump one day on the Wyoming shortgrass prairie. I was walking along with my rifle on my shoulder when I step across a prairie rattler. He buzzed as I was straddling him, left foot in front of him, right foot just behind him. I snapped a look down at him and did my highest, longest jump to date. I doubt I will ever equal that for height or distance again.
Think how you'd perform when the tracers went whizzing by your left shoulder. :)
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Adrenaline has a nasty after effect. More fatigue.
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My thing is: The dogfights in World War 2 was not a battle of stamina or strength, but a battle of position, aircraft advantages and ability to aim.
The phrase "6 hours of boredom, 30 seconds of sheer terror" wasn't coined for no reason. It was just that, the action was few and far in between.
Here, yes a human would probably pass out in our dogfights.
They last until the last plane was shot down or you yourself get shot down. With people constantly re-upping from fields no more than 50 miles apart, and usually 20 miles from the furball this means action is quick and furious.
In this game, fatigue WOULD indeed have an impact on G tolerances.. and maybe after an extended fight, it would have an impact on your strength.
So, in the end, using WW2 and real life examples of fatigue to compare to the way dogfights happen here is pretty eroneous. Simply because there is no connection.
They are two completely different things.
It would go back to being like pre-1.03. Yes I know a lot of people liked it, but it was wrong.
-SW
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True, SW. There's very few accounts of extended engagments similar to what we routinely do in the MA.
There are some... Saburo Sakai's engagement with multiple Navy guys comes to mind.
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By that point he only had one eye, right? Or was THAT the fight where he lost vision in one of his eyes?
Either way, that should be a testament to how much you can push the human body when it's life or death.
-SW
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Originally posted by Toad:
True, SW. There's very few accounts of extended engagments similar to what we routinely do in the MA.
There are some... Saburo Sakai's engagement with multiple Navy guys comes to mind.
Toad or SW, does Sakai say anything about fatigue in his account of this battle?
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I cant see how somebody would make a resonable fatigue program. Just way too many highly subjective variables. Its not like making a FM.
And If you think about it there is natural fatigue in AH anyway, certainly weve all been in gut-wrenching fites and come out sweaty and pretty much exhausted.
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Wouldn't trying to do this introduce a completly new concept into the game: The pilot model?
Is that what we want? I'd rather stick to plain physics modelling which can be proven/disproven by empiracal data rather than trying to stipulate possibly spurious physio-psycological (yes, psycological if one is to include pilot training/motivation/stress threshold) for a suitable pilot model.
What a waste of time, when there's so much more work on the the flight and plane model to be done.
Surely we're here to see how it was to fly a given plane, not how it was to be a given pilot.
When's the last time anyone used prop pitch in here, and what for?
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"But, if you are saying that you want our pilot to suffer fatigue and begin to not be able pull as much as he could when the fight first begin, then I will care."
In a recent issue of Pilot magazine, there was a comparison between the 109 and Spitfire. The author (display pilot of both), described how he would start a 109 routine with one hand on stick and end up using both (due to fatique), but in the Spit, he could fly the same routine with one hand all the way through.
That's about 3-4 minutes flying..
Daff
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Originally posted by Jekyll:
Toad or SW, does Sakai say anything about fatigue in his account of this battle?
I don't remember, I can tell you when I get home tonite though... It's in one of my books at home.
-SW
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Originally posted by Daff:
[QBIn a recent issue of Pilot magazine, there was a comparison between the 109 and Spitfire. The author (display pilot of both), described how he would start a 109 routine with one hand on stick and end up using both (due to fatique), but in the Spit, he could fly the same routine with one hand all the way through.
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How old was the pilot? Was he physically fit? Was he built like most WWII pilots?
Have you seen the arms on those guys that flew 109s?
Helmut Lipfert made his pilots, and himself, do a workout routine each day to keep themselves fit and strong. This would naturally help in combat.
-SW
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Good Point,
I can understand an "Allied Pilot" having fatigue. They had to fly for Hours to LW targets, hungover from night before etc. Now the LW Pilots on the other hand were in much better shape, better looking, rested in chairs, were more skilled and simply had to scramble to meet the opposition. They were in the air less time, killed all Allied aircraft and returned fresh and drank milk! Why penalize all pilots the same..this doesn't sound fair to me! Let's penalize the ALLIED pilots.. !"
Lets see how long we can keep this thread going! Blahahaha! :D
(http://www.applink.net/thunder/sig/DHBG.jpg)
[ 08-09-2001: Message edited by: Thunder ]
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Actually I was thinking only P51D pilots should be penalized.
Not like they fight anyway. <G>
-SW
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My copy of Samurai! has turned up AWOL. I hate it when I loan a book to someone without writing down who took it.
Will have to go down to the library and check one out. It's been a while since I read it. Great book.
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Some more good points.
But the point of sakai loosing an eye is not that he landed it. Its what would have happend if he had gotten bounced after loosing it.
People say they dont want the pilot modeled cause its too subjective. Well the FMs we have have to subjectivly assume a certain strength. Cant a subjective strength be subjectivly lessend?
SWs point about the fundimental difference between the duration of dog fights here vs RL is very accurate. The point I suppose is would the inclusion of limitations like this tend to make them more realistic?
SW votes no. Others definatly aggree. I dont know. But we have progressed beyond the nonsence of it didnt matter in ww2 to understanding a bit about how it would matter and discussing why that might not mean it would improve our game.
A note though. Doesnt the AH code still have that feature where if you black out too long you stay blacked out after the gs come off? Isnt that a simulare kind of issue? I rarly pull gs long enough to trigger the code but is it still there?
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Yes Pongo, that bit of code is still there.
I believe it's called G-Lock by AirForce pilots, but I might be mistaken.
I'm not sure if it's supposed to be an actual portrayal of pulling too long and passing out or if it's just a gimicky feature to prevent people from staying in a black out turn for too long.
I didn't neccessarily mean to say that losing his eye gives justification to the ability for the human body to indure quite a bit, I meant that he was dogfighting 7 (I think, can't remember) Hellcats in an A6M5b (again, I think) for quite some time before he managed to get home and land.
Now, lets say we have the Combat Arena set to be more "on par" with how dogfights happened in the real war in the past... potentially this could invite justification for a "fatigue" system or something along those lines: should enough people want it.
Like you said Pongo, I do not think it's more than a concession feature.. but that alone doesn't mean you guys are wrong in what you want.
-SW
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The engagement in which Sakai lost the vision in his right eye was in August of '42. The bullet hit his goggle but left him close to blind with the left half of his body paralyzed. After being hit, he flew an amazing 4 hours back to Rabaul and landed on fumes.
The long furball with the Hellcats was in June of '44. He had lost almost all vision in his right eye as a result of the previous wound, so he did fight the F6F's essentially with one operable eye. (He had spent a year in Japan training pilots before being sent to Iwo.)
Two separate incidents, separated by almost 2 years.
The aircombat in WW2 was not like aircombat in AH. The number of engagements, the duration of engagments, the type of engagments were greatly dissimilar.
There are some common elements, but the overall experience was vastly different. This situation is inevitably going to lead to selectivity in the basic framework of the programming.
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True its different
but to what extent is it different becuause there is no real concept of fatigue
Can we not have fatigue because its different?
Or is it different because we dont have fatigue(amongst many other things)
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Sakai also said that he tired easily after being wounded, not just during that fight. He insinuated that he would just get tired.
Just before the fight will the F6Fs he had, with minimal manuvering, shot an F6F down. After doing that he had suddenly felt tired and had pulled off to rest.
He watched a Zero chase a Hellcat, then a Hellcat get on the Zero, then Zero on Hellcat, Hellcat on that Zero and finally a Zero finishing the line. He said that he was cursing the pilots on both sides for not checking their 6s by the time the last aircraft had joined. Only the Zero at the end survived.
He then mistook the formation of F6Fs for Zeros, went to join up and ended up in a fight with them.
His description of the fatigue that bult up during the fight was that it was getting harder to roll and turn the Zero as fast as he had ealier. When he started he was pushing his A6M5 nearly to the point of a wing failure. He was sweating alot and the sweat was getting into his good eye. In the end he managed to get into his base's AA fire and that drove the F6Fs off.
Due to his limited vision he was always rolling and breaking to the left, he knew it was a weakness, but he couldn't see to the right. He said that if he'd been in one of the Hellcats the Zero would have died, but the American pilots never lead a shot. They always just shot at where the Zero was now. He was impressed with the Hellcat (that was his first fight with them) but thought that those pilots didn't do it justice.
His Zero was barely hit, or maybe not at all, in that fight. Saburo Sakai is also one of the two Axis aces that I know of who never lost a wingman.
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Due to his limited vision he was always rolling and breaking to the left, he knew it was a weakness, but he couldn't see to the right. He said that if he'd been in one of the Hellcats the Zero would have died, but the American pilots never lead a shot. They always just shot at where the Zero was now. He was impressed with the Hellcat (that was his first fight with them) but thought that those pilots didn't do it justice.
Kinda helps explain why the differences in armament comes into play in AH (where pilots have been leading targets for a decade or more in many cases) compared to RL where a zero deflection from 200-300 yards was standard to get kills.
Charon
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Hm, we have generic planes, i.e every flown 51D is the same.
For the sake of modelling we could have a generic pilot in terms of stamina. I think that extended periods of time being subjected to high g's WILL wear you out.
Saw a program on Discovery where some US pilots went through the centrifuge to establish their tolerance. One pilot was so drained after his 30 seconds run that he had to wait til later in the afternoon to try again.
About all the pilots said that even short periods of time were totally draining their energy.
FWIW, muscle mass is important in fighting g's - when you squeeze yer muscles, the blood vessels essentially close themselves down or something like that. Even more important is the distance the heart needs to pump the blood - one reason why female fighter pilots in general have a good g tolerance despite being at a disadvantage in terms of muscles.
At any rate, *some* kind of fatigue thing would be good. Not necessarily so much that it puts turn fighter pilots at a distinct disadvantage, but something that just at least introduces this very real concept into the sim. It's been done in other sims quite succesfully, and I really don't see why someone resists the introduction of it.
Sure, it's a game. Sure, there are concessions being made. But this thing would add value without really affecting game play in a negative way - quite the contrary. I'm all for it.
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IIRC, the book said his ground crew didn't find a single hole in his Zero after the fight with 15 Hellcats. A tribute to his skill as a pilot, without question. A knock on the ability of the Hellcat squadron as well. ;)
Pongo,
My _personal_ observation is that people seem to want it both ways.
If you have engagements "just like WW2" fatigue is not going to be a big player. As I mentioned above, there are very few examples of "long duration" fights like Sakai had with the Hellcats. Therefore, fatigue from 30 minutes of non-stop dogfighting just didn't come into play.
Most of the engagements that you read of consist of a pass or two or at most 3 or 4 minutes. Many of the flyers never engaged on a lot of their missions, particularly those on the Allied side. Isn't there a saying somewhere that 5% of the pilots did 90% of the killing? Are we going to model that?
Anyway, in such common, low-intensity combat situations, my opinion is that fatigue is just not a major factor.
OTOH, it's true that if you turned and burned for 40 minutes straight fatigue would probably become a player. This is pretty common in the MA; you climb out a bit, engage and continue to engage in a hot area until you die or land for more gas and bullets. So in this event, fatigue becomes a player. However, one is still faced with the fact that this is very highly atypical for "just like WW2" air combat.
So, do we add fatigue and mandate "real" WW2 style engagements? That is, one short fight per mission on most missions?
Or do we allow multiple non-stop engagements without fatigue, thus making each individual engagment within the mission closer to what probably happened in WW2 with respect to being relatively "fresh" for the engagement?
Or do we allow multiple non-stop engagements with fatigue, making the atypical number of engagements subject to what will essentially be an arbitrary (but tweakable) fatigue penalty?
Not a very clear-cut situation is it?
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There's always the "time factor" to be considered. In pilot training we routinely did formation acro of 3-6 G for up to 10-15 minutes at a time. We would do this routine usually twice in a 75-minute sortie. I don't remember ever feeling tired during the mission, but definitely felt worn out at the end of one.
If a "fatigue factor" IS added, it needs to be "abstracted" IMO to account for what it is you're trying to simulate. If the "normal" AH dogfight lasts 12.3 minutes, then fatigue should not be a factor for at least 10 minutes. Even then, fatigue should only SLIGHTLY affect actual aircraft control. You only want a small advantage to be created because of this. Having one pilot in "full" control and the other unable to move because he's "tired" would be completely bogus. Having one guy able to get his full 90-degrees per second roll rate and having the other guy only "strong enough" to get 85 degrees would be more believable.
The G-tolerance thing is actually a different question, because a "generic" pilot will most definitely have his ability to withstand extended, repeated high-G degrade fairly quickly, in terms of how long he can resist blacking out and how quickly his vision will be affected. IMO this would be far more likely to affect the length of a fight (and who wins) than any "tired arms" would. If I can pull 6 Gs and you're blacking out at 4, you're dead ;)
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I'm always tired...does this mean that I won't be able to fly AH anymore?
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"Dogfighting was hard work. You needed strong arms and shoulders. Those controls weren't hydraulically operated, and at 400mph they became extremely heavy. Without cabin pressurization, flying at high altitude wore you out. And so did pulling Gs in sharp turns and steep dives. ... After a couple of minutes of dogfighting, your back and arms felt like you had been hauling a piano upstairs. You were sweaty and breathing heavily. Sometimes you could see a German's exhaustion from the way he turned and maneuvered - another advantage if you were stronger".
[ 08-17-2001: Message edited by: Jekyll ]
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Used to have some really cool discussions on this board.
I still think that AH battles might be more realistic with fatigue in the mix.
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Many points are variable, Grun, but I think there's room for certain aspects rendered within the game which may enhance the gameplay.
For instance, the recent patch of IL-2/FB modelled in pilot wound factor - since the pilot itself has sort of a 'damage model', when you get hit in the arms, immediately the effectiveness of stick control falls down - can barely push more than 2Gs, and rolls also suffer.
It really is a terrifying experience to find that you were hit in the arms at high speed with a large bank angle, and can't exert enough pressure to turn your plane over and reduce speed to bail out. You watch in horror as the plane begins to nose down and gain even more speed in a death dive, and you can't steer it level, reduce speed, or even bail out because of such high speeds. Bam! Spectacular crash! It's really heart pumping.
I think some factors can be known and implemented empirically - since there will be real life fighter pilots in the community who do have experience of flying at high Gs - just interview one of them, assume his physique as the 'standard', and implement some of the issues and infos from him. Like, how much slower, or harder it gets to turn your head during a high G maneuver...
Other factors, such as fatigue from continuous movement, can probably use other bits of gameplay devices seen in arcade games - not necessarily meaning the implementation is arcadish, just meaning that the system itself is derived from how some arcade games handle such factors.
Like, there could be an invisible, internal 'guage', or a 'stamina bar', or a 'stamina point' set to something like "100" for all pilots. Gentle inputs cause no draining of the bar/points, sudden transitions from left to right can maybe cause what, five points to fall?
When the stick action stops and returns to a 'gentle level', the bar/point can recharge at a certain rate. The harder the stick pressure gets, bar/point decreases at a more faster rate. This could be coordinated into something like allowing pilots to continuously maintain very high-G pulls or exert high stick pressure for about 5 minutes continuously, in theory. (I have no knowledge on how much a 'standard' combat pilot can retain high stick pressures, though. Something like that can probably be tested in physical examinations or something )
If the pilot really pushes himself and his plane to continuous high stick pressures or high G turns, the bar/point will eventually fall down - with each 'negative' point starting to take bad effect on control authority, until it recharges.(Maybe.. something like each negative point starting to cause -0.5% control authority or something??)
Also, the speed of the 'bar/point' falling down, can be different according to planes - planes with good high speed control authority will enjoy its benefits to the pilot, while bad performers such as Spits or 109s, can make the pilot drain a lot more 'stamina' or something..
Anyhow, I don't think such a thing's gonna be implemented in AH, and even if it is, it is gonna take a long painful process of tweaking.. but I don't think the concept itself is impossible to implement.
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another interesting point to the saki fight was that no hellcats were in the area at the time acording to the navy. No allied pilot has said that he was involved in this fight. That might be one explanation for the lack of bullet holes in saki's plane.
I have not seen any reports of any pilot who could not fight because he was too tired to move the stick after 2 or three minutes of combat. I have heard many reports of pilots who landed and realized they were dead tired and they were soaked in sweat to the point of their leather jackets dripping sweat.
lazs
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I say it can't be done in a reasonable manner, though the principle of idea is interesting.
Imagine the whines from the furball lobbyists!
I understand that the FW190 had light and balanced stick loads in addition to the pilot sitting slightly reclined (F16 style).
What could be done, and has been suggested, is to raise the blackout threshold when flying the 190.
There are still many subtleties within the planeset that could be modelled before thinking about pilot fatigue.
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What's clear it that most of the "fatigue" promoters posting since Pongo punted the thread either haven't read the whole thing or simply choose to remain uninformed.
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Originally posted by Rude
I'm always tired...does this mean that I won't be able to fly AH anymore?
I'm kind of with you, Rude. I'm not sure I need for the game to model anything for me. After an hour or so of working in and out of a really good furball, I'm usually ready for a nap.
It's a good thing someone always comes along to sink the CV or pork the fuel so that I don't get too fatigued.:rolleyes:
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Supposadly Douglas Bader had a higher G tolerance, later black out limit cause of his missing legs. Can we model him so we can turn tighter in Hurri's, Spit Is and Spit Vs without blacking out? :)
Dan/Slack
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What's clear it that most of the "fatigue" promoters posting since Pongo punted the thread either haven't read the whole thing or simply choose to remain uninformed.
Or perhaps read the whole thing, but wanna expand it into a different direction? :rolleyes:
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It's the same direction.
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simple solution... since it is only the german planes that had high effort sticks then we could just model some fatigue for them and leave the other planes alone. Say... 3 turns or flip flops and the plane could only fly straight and level... this should not be any burden on them since they don't turn anyway.
In Hintons videos of the F6 and corsair he makes mention of how light the controls are and how roomy the cockpit is. You can see him rolling the corsair useing basicaly, thumb and one finger.
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
You can see him rolling the corsair useing basicaly, thumb and one finger.
lazs
Yeah, sure.. but two consecutive rolls and your thumb and finger cramp up, rendering you totally incapable of rolling any more. We should model that.
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Originally posted by miko2d
Bf109 - 40 pounds of stick force/G. Extremely narrow cockpit. No rudder trim and constant need to push with one leg.
P47 - 7 pounts of stick force/G. Spaceous cockpit. Very well-balanced, trim available.
So the at high speeds, especially at altitude a pilot in P47 was rutinely able to outturn a pilot in Bf109 and in a short time exaust him.
Ever tried to aim a gun weighting 60 pounds?
I could loan you my 64-pound longbow and let you try a shot. I could hit a quarter at 20 yards but after 6 shots in a row I needed fifteen minutes break.
I can shoot my wife's 40 pound bow indefinitely.
Even simpler, try to run a mile with 7-pound load. Then try one with 40-pound load.
After the run try some precision activity, like playing a piano or target shooting.
I bet the results before and after the run will be quite different due to fatigue.
miko
*cough* bull**** *cough*
Me 109 G:
"So how does the aeroplane compare with other contemporary fighters ? First, let me say that all my comments are based on operation below 10,000 feet and at power settings not exceeding +12 (54") and 2700 rpm. I like it as an aeroplane, and with familiarity I think it will give most of the allied fighters I have flown a hard time, particularly in a close, hard turning, slow speed dog-fight. It will definitely out-maneuver a P-51 in this type of flight, the roll rate and slow speed characteristics being much better. The Spitfire on the other hand is more of a problem for the '109 and I feel it is a superior close in fighter. Having said that the aircraft are sufficiently closely matched that pilot abilty would probably be the deciding factor. At higher speeds the P-51 is definitely superior, and provided the Mustang kept his energy up and refused to dogfight he would be relatively safe against the '109.
I like the aeroplane very much, and I think I can understand why many of the Luftwaffe aces had such a high regard and preference for it."
- Mark Hanna of the Old Flying Machine Company flying the OFMC Messerschmitt Bf 109 G
109 G:
"The roll rate is very good and very positive below about 250 mph. Above 250 mph however the roll starts to heavy up and up to 300 or so is very similar to a P-51. After that it's all getting pretty solid and you need two hands on the stick for any meaningfull roll rates. Pitch is also delighful at 250 mph and below. It feels very positve and the amount of effort on the control column needed to produce the relevant nose movement seems exactly right to me. The aircraft is perfectly happy carrying out low-level looping maneuvers from 300 mph and below. Above 300 mph one peculiarity is a slight nose down trim change as you accelerate. The rudder is effective and if medium feel up to 300. It becomes heavier above this speed but regardless the lack of rudder trim is not a problem for the type of operations we carry out with the aeroplane."
- Mark Hanna of the Old Flying Machine Company flying the OFMC Messerschmitt Bf 109 G
"The 109? That was a dream, the non plus ultra. Just like the F-14 of today. Of course, everyone wanted to fly it as soon as possible. I was very proud when I converted to it."
Major Gunther Rall, German fighter ace, NATO general, Commander of the German Air Force. 275 victories.
" I had made my own estimates of the performance and maneuverability characteristics of a lot of other single-seater fighters, and I'd be willing to wager that none of them represent the general, all-around flight and fighting characteristics possessed by the Me109."
- US Marine Corps major Al Williams.
Me 109 G:
"Fast and maneuverable Me 109 (G) would be a tough opponent in the hands of a skillful pilot. Messerschmitt was during it´s time an efficient fighter and would not be in shame even nowadays. Eventhough the top speeds of the today´s fighters are high the differerencies would even up in a dogfight.
Mersu (Messerchmitt) had three meters long engine in the nose were with 1 500 horsepowers. The speed was at it´s best 750 kilometers per hour. It turned well too, if you just pulled the stick"
- Mauno Fräntilä, Finnish fighter ace. 5 1/2 victories. Source: Finnish Virtual Pilots Association: fighter ace Mauno Fräntilä was creating the glory of the war pilots.
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Up, up and away
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This idea assumes a common level of fitness. That would be highly unrealistic. It also assumes that everyone has the same general physical make-up. Again, unrealistic.
I recall reading that modern flight physiologists believe that pilots like Robert Johnson and Gabby Gabreski were successful partially due to being short of stature, thus decreasing the distance between heart and brain while allowing for greater O2 concentration in the blood and muscles.
Leave it alone folks, there's no fair way to apply this.
My regards,
Widewing