Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: leonid on July 13, 2002, 01:05:39 PM
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From the BBC (http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/from_our_own_correspondent/newsid_2124000/2124869.stm).
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Farewell and good riddance to Mr. Sackur. He just Does Not Get It.
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The US is wrong again. :rolleyes:
Oh well, like I give a crap.
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Farewell and good riddance to Mr. Sackur. He just Does Not Get It.
Yes he does.
The US is wrong again.
Oh well, like I give a crap.
Exactly.
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Yes he does.
No he doesn't. The major theme of the article is that individual Americans are kind and generous but they do not subscribe wholeheartedly to socialism and that this is wrong. What he doesn't get is that while the idiots in Washington continually try to force-feed us socialism, the vast majority of Americans are not comfortable with it, and when push comes to shove, they will not support the conversion of the USA into a Euro-compliant socialist utopia. He doesn't belong here and I'm glad he's leaving. Like minded individuals feel free to follow his example.
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Anyway, I like the three "r's" in terrror.
Thrawn-
Every so often, our country votes on leaders, and every so often one of those leaders tries to push a socialistic agenda. What usually follows is that person is replaced with someone a little less so inclined. Seems clear to me the country is operating democratically.
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To paraphase a point of his I agree with.
Rest of the world: Hey US, do you want to help us reduce greenhouse emittions, get rid of land mines and set up a permanent world court, kind of like the one you help set up a Nurenburg? :)
US: Go diddly yourselves. :p
Rest of the world: Gosh! :(
Sept. 11
US: You better help US find these terroists or you're diddlyed.:mad:
Rest of the world: Gosh, Okay buddy. :eek:
How long do you think these states of affairs will last.
PS: I particularly like my use of emoticons in this post.:D
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Thrawn-
No disagreement there. If it is ok for America to defend itself from terrorist attacks, it should be ok for Israel. If America wants world support for its war, it should be ready to support causes of other nations, too. Of course that is way oversimplifying the issues, but in general there is a fundamental fairness about that viewpoint.
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Thats not particularly bad article, it represents alot of 'foreigners' thoughts about US.
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I can't really argue with the court or the land mine issue but the Kyoto treaty would be a huge mistake. The cure would be worse than the disease. And there's not conclusive proof that the cure will work.
We have made great strides in the US in reducing pollution in a cost effective manner, and I think we should continue to work in that direction. A good example is automotive emissions, where the US (particularly California) pioneered many technical regulations which have been copied by many countries, particularly those in Europe.
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I think the mistake is coming to America thinking it should be like what you left. It isn't. It may be better, it may be worse, but in all likelihood it is just different. There is no "one America" or "one American". The place is too big and too diverse. That article written from the viewpoint of experience from living here is somewhat valid, but it still will miss much of what America is.
I have never met a Brit that liked our politics. No surprise.
I have never met a Canadian that liked our politics. No surprise.
I have never met a Finn that liked our politics. No surprise.
I have never met a German that liked our politics. No surprise.
I have never met a Frenchman that liked....
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Originally posted by funkedup
I can't really argue with the court or the land mine issue but the Kyoto treaty would be a huge mistake. The cure would be worse than the disease. And there's not conclusive proof that the cure will work.
We have made great strides in the US in reducing pollution in a cost effective manner, and I think we should continue to work in that direction. A good example is automotive emissions, where the US (particularly California) pioneered many technical regulations which have been copied by many countries, particularly those in Europe.
I don't know. I think the disease is pretty fricken bad.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn?pagename=article&node=&contentId=A30706-2001Jan22¬Found=true
http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=51658
Edit: We got caught in edits. Yes the US has made great advances in emission controls. I just don't think it's enough. And for the record, my country went into Kyoto kicking and screaming, and it still whines.
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yeah, they can't stand us til they need us :rolleyes:
America should take of herself and her allies, period.
And we should choose our allies much more carefully than we have chosen them in the past ....
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we got what we wanted in the "world" court.
In a year we'll get it again :)
As for landmines, I say whoever planted them, go pick them up... why should the US be responsible, oh yeah - cause we are the babysitter & big protective brother for the rest of the world. :rolleyes:
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Amusing is that most of the 'lacks' are what causes the positives. Ah well, it's different. I don't look down upon him and his failed structures as he does mine. Perhaps in time he will grow to accept differences among cultures and become more tolerant :D
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Thrawn yes I have read the litany of dire predictions. They still can not prove that it's caused by human activity, nor can they prove that anything in the Kyoto treaty will prevent it from happening.
And even if you believe the projections that Kyoto is based on, it's still not clear that the costs of compliance with the treaty are less than the costs of noncompliance.
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Bjorn Lomborg has a book on this topic but this interview sums up his analysis of Kyoto:
http://www.newsweekly.com.au/articles/2001dec01_lomborg.html
He's a college professor and ex-Greenpeacer who was appointed by the Danish government (those noted right-wing ecopirate robber barons :) ) to head their environmental assessment agency.
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If I didn't read the credits for that article - I'd be 100% sure it was written by Melor Sturua, Izvestia (USSR Supreme Council newspaper) correspondent in US during mid 60s - early 80s...
After 10 years of euphoria Russians and other nations from former USSR finaly realised that he could be right... It happened in spring, 1999, when the "land of freedom and democracy" showed it's agressive nature.
Anyway, I'll call that article pure propaganda. The question is who needs such propaganda and what is the real purpose of it? When you hear roadkill in the media (including HR activists hallucinations) - always think what's behind it and what troubles it can bring to you. Old Soviet habbit. ;)
BTW, I think this guy wrote angry articles against evil Russian army killing poor Chechens. Noone gives a flying f#$k about Russians killed by terrorist bombs, but any amazinhunk complains about "unnessesary violence" in Chechnya...
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LOL and here comes Lil' Slobodan out of left field to put yet another spin on it. :)
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Originally posted by funkedup
LOL and here comes Lil' Slobodan out of left field to put yet another spin on it. :)
Is it adressed to me?
Sorry, sometimes i don't understrand what is supposed to be humor, as i can guess by the emoticons...
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Boroda, I assumed your reference to 1999 meant the NATO actions against Milosevic' regime. You seemed to be saying these actions showed an agressive nature and were against "freedom and democracy." A person who would say such a thing would have to be either severely misinformed or else a supporter of the butcher Milosevic. In the spirit of our usual extremist debate I assumed the former.
PS The bombing starts in five minutes.
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funked, thanks for link to the interview with Bjorn Lomborg. It was interesting.
I would dispute his basic premise of 2 to 3 degree increase in temperature. And as such, I find most of the rest of the his numbers to be suspect.
From my link above.
"The report, approved unanimously at a U.N. conference in Shanghai and described as the most comprehensive study on the subject to date, says that Earth's average temperature could rise by as much as 10.4 degrees over the next 100 years -- the most rapid change in 10 millennia and more than 60 percent higher than the same group predicted less than six years ago."
The name of the organization that compiled the report is, the UN affilated, Intergovemental Panel on Climate Change.
Here is their web site: http://www.ipcc.ch/
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Yep Thrawn if it's 10 degrees then I'm sure Lomborg would have to redo his analysis. But I don't consider the UN to be an absolute authority on anything, and definitely not science. There are a lot of different projections out there.
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Yes, there are. I'm not fanatically dedicate to anyone prodiction and I'm taking a wait and see attitude for the next four years or so. I do what I can to reduce green gas emissions. If things happen the way I think they will then I'll start planning. If not, then great, one less thing to worry about.
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Well I promise to stop eating Taco Bell bean burritos. That should drop that estimate by 3-4 degrees.
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Originally posted by funkedup
I figured by 1999 you were referring to the NATO actions against Milosevic' regime. You seem to be saying these actions showed an agressive nature and were against "freedom and democracy." A person who would say such a thing could only be a supporter of the butcher Milosevic.
Funked, "democracy" isn't an absolute value. And "democracy" supported by bombs blowing up schools and hospitals is what we have to avoid at all costs. And NATO really was supporting "freedom", freedom to kill for Moslim gangsters and freedom for Albanian drug dealers in Europe.
The "butchers" were the Moslim terrorists from KLA and NATO pilots bombing a free and happy country "to stone age".
Go find Miloshevich's speach in the "international court". If you can :( The "trial" have turned into a farce that reminds of a Dimitrov's process in nazi Germany back in the 30s. The only difference is that Dimitrov was allowed to speak in public, while Miloshevich doesn't get any attention from the media. AFAIR the EC officials don't allow any media coverage since they discovered he "beats them in ideological warfare". Well done, truth is always dangerous.
Now - back to the topic ;)
My point was that since NATO bombings of Yugoslavia an average Russian doesn't think that US is our "friend", as it was for about 10 years before that. Your government is absolutely nuts, and you have to admit it. That's what Melor Sturua was writing about. Good people, crazy authorities....
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OK I don't disagree greatly with that, and sorry for calling you Slobodan. :)
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pffft!
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To paraphase a point of his I agree with. Rest of the world: Hey US, do you want to help us reduce greenhouse emittions, get rid of land mines and set up a permanent world court, kind of like the one you help set up a Nurenburg?
US: Go f@#$ yourselves.
Rest of the world: Gosh!
Sept. 11
US: You better help US find these terroists or you're diddlyed.
Rest of the world: Gosh, Okay buddy.
How long do you think these states of affairs will last.
PS: I particularly like my use of emoticons in this post.
f@$# u thrawn..
and yas i edited your cuss out of the quote too...
did the US drop all the landmines that are ruining the world?
is the US the only source of polution in the world?
is the US the policeman of the globe? (wait don't answer that.. i forgot most.. pinko liberals pushed us into that role
'cause it was the right thing to do[/I]
who has the US asked for help in on the problem of illiteracy?
who has the US asked for help in on the problem of poverty?
who has the US asked for help in on the problem of.. any other homeland issue? (other than the war on terrorism)
you can keep all your socialist thoughts and propoganda and shove them u know where.
you want help from the US in any matter.. what are you gonna give us for our time, money and personal?
i'd rather see 1000 soldiers die for a cause that DIRECTLY affects us.. than 1 die for a pathetic charity cause.
since the begining of civilized society it has all been about free trade. you want something... what do you have to give for it?
IMO if we ask the other countries of this planet for help combating a virus/scourge of the world it is repayment for all that we have given to this planet.
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Funny thread!
Got a lot of good laughs out of it after a rather poor day. Keep up the good work.
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It's so very easy for the gutless euros to set up a world court. Nobody would care to attack them there because europe almost never has to make the sort of hard decisions and take the difficult adult actions which lead to America's opposition to such a childish measure.
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That article has so many contradictions it's pitiful. He obviously doesn't get what being an American is all about.
"Americans volunteer their time and money for community causes - especially school and church - on a scale unheard of in liberal Europe."
I think this is the thing European socialist don't understand. Charity and socialism do not mix well. Americans like to give stuff to needy people (one of his contradictions in the article) If the government taxes us the way they do it makes it more dificult to give to charity. Charity is also the more efficient of the two. Why send money to someobody who will use part/most of that money to give it to the people you could just give the whole amount to? And about the poor here in America. In how many countries do the poorest people have 2 color tv's and possibly a car?
He talks about a lady being turned away from a hospital. Well I can say first hand that I have never been denied medical attention from many diferent hospitals in 2 diferent cities. When I was 21 I had surgery on my left wrist and didn't pay a dime. I've been to the emergency room no less than 6 times when I didn't have a penny to my name. They billed me, but they never turned me away. Once I had to use the "what about the hipocratical oath" card, but again I wasn't turned away after that. Health care is not the domain of the federal government. It belongs in the states. If NY wants to give health insurance to each of it's citizens, more power to them! Doesn't mean NJ has to do the same thing.
He has no clue what being an American is. Good ridence to him, makes room for somebody who will come her that knows why they want to live here. Just a totaly flawed article. It was nice the way he buillt up America so he could cut it down, what a joke....
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Maybe this guy needs to talk to some of the people who come here half starved on boats...who come here in shipping containers risking death.
Who come sneaking accross our borders
Who have visas to work here
Who are becoming citizens
Then he can tell them to turn around and go back, because it's better where they came from.
Or maybe they can all go with him to live at his mother's house...
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Originally posted by Eagler
we got what we wanted in the "world" court.
In a year we'll get it again :)
As for landmines, I say whoever planted them, go pick them up... why should the US be responsible, oh yeah - cause we are the babysitter & big protective brother for the rest of the world. :rolleyes:
Eagler black-mailing doesn't doesn't do any good to your country and I'm quite sure you know it too :)
As for land mines.. well Finns know how to do it properly and we have tools for it too.
Finnish U.N forces have been doing it for years in Asia,Africa and Kosovo.
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Originally posted by Staga
Eagler black-mailing doesn't doesn't do any good to your country and I'm quite sure you know it too :)
As for land mines.. well Finns know how to do it properly and we have tools for it too.
Finnish U.N forces have been doing it for years in Asia,Africa and Kosovo.
well it would be nice if peoople would start praising the Finns for their work instead of critisizing the USA :)
Let me be the first. Thanks Finland for clearing up land mines and saving peoples (mostly kids) lives and limbs.
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"For all the individual warmth and generosity of its citizens, the US is organised on a ruthlessly competitive principle: in life there are winners and losers."
True.And a good point.But he did miss several things.he missed a trip through Appalachia where the poor whites reside instead of talking about the poor blacks who are living a hell of alot better concidering the circumstances.There are poor people everywhere in this country.Were also the ONLY country where the poor,welfare,are fat. The US is an overbearing,self ritchous country but we are allways the first to jump in to help someone else.With a deficit in the billions how much of that do you think went to foreign aid?How much went to paying the military to peace keep in these countries that despise us after we save there tulips from themselves. The argument could be made we stick our noses where it best suits us but theres more to it than that.We ARE the bullys on the block but we also do the most to help everyone else.
Wanna pull the landmines from the DMZ?By all means go for it.And when N Vietnam takes a fast train south dont come crying to us again.Weve lost far more military people to fighting someone elses fight than we ever will fighting our own.Its not even close.So when someone squeakes about the US that is a so called natural born,remember this.No one is making you stay here and many have died to enable you to say that but if YOU dont have someone in the military or served yourself to make that possable,you need to stfu IMHO.
Flame away:rolleyes:
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Uh, the Landmine Treaty proposed to ban them, not clean them up.
You guys might want to read a bit about an issue before spouting off about it, with so much righteous indignation.:p
I mean jeebus, you guys don't even know what your country said no to. And you come in here going all, ""Blah Blah Blah, you're just US bashing again." :D
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I know they wanted to ban them.That was a big thing with Princess Diana.But they also want to get them all removed from the DMZ.read up on YOUR facts.As far as bashing the US.Im born and raised here.I can do that.And it wasnt nessecarily bashing.
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Originally posted by Udie
well it would be nice if peoople would start praising the Finns for their work instead of critisizing the USA :)
Let me be the first. Thanks Finland for clearing up land mines and saving peoples (mostly kids) lives and limbs.
And dont forget about the germans who died de-arming Afgahn ordance. The Taliban had this nasty habit of storing bombs in mosqs, schools homes shops and other places inocent people tend to be.
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LOL... The U.S. has to build walls to keep people out... the socialist countries have to build walls to keep people in.
I think the socialists would rather that everyone live in poverty with no hope of ever getting off "the dole". As for socialist health care? Don't make me laugh.... I been to England.... I seen you guys teeth. My Brother lives in Canada... I send him money. U.S. money is worth something in Canada. Crime in Vancouver is as bad as anywhere in the world.... everyone lives in a sort of low level poverty with no hope of ever getting out unless they can bag some U.S. cash.
I don't want any "world court"... I don't want anything to do with euro politics. They certainly need us a lot more than we need them but why should we allow ourselves to be dragged down to their level?
It boils down to this.... If you come here seeking socialism then yu will probly leave unhappy... thank gawd. Not all Brits are beaten down so badly... I have talked to a few that have been here 20 or more years.. They feel the same as I do when they visit england... Nice place to visit but it should be turned into a theme park. Certainly... it should have no say in U.S. policies.
lazs
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I don't want any "world court"... I don't want anything to do with euro politics
Good point.... didnt Euro politics start enough wars over there?
That's all these guy do, make brainless treaties and entanglements with each other that ends up being the root cause of a war. I bet you this world court is no different.... it will be the cause of a war over there, you see.
You know what gets me? Countries that say we stick our noses in others business, then whine that we dont get into there wars soon enough.
They squeak that we didnt jump right WWII immediatly to help there asses. Maybe we shouldnd have stuck our noses in there business.
Screw those jealous idiots.
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You can't really believe our interests are not intwined with those of the rest of the world? Isolationism is pretty much proven as a failed concept. We cannot help but be involved in world affairs- the question is to what degree is that necessary.
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Whats your viewpoint Leonid? The article captured your attention, enough to post it....comments?
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I love it when the Euros criticize our way of life here in the USA
And the World Wars started where? In their little Utopian Societies? Say its not so! :D :eek: Ethnic cleansing in their backyards! Bad us for stopping it and our military having to mind their back yard to keep the peace? Sigh....same old same old. It must be nice to for Euros to criticize while we maintain the peace for them to do so.
Note: Heavy use of humor and sarcasm were used in this post :D
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kieran... I didn't say that. I simply said that we don't need to recognize their "third world court". We are and will continue to be involved in world affairs that concern us.
lazs
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Actually Lazs, I was responding to Nuke. Sorry for the confusion.
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Mr. Sackur's observation that most American's don't understand "why they hate us so" is, it seems to me, quite correct. Indeed, after the 9/11 attacks, I heard that sentiment echoed repeatedly among friends, family, and coworkers.
The reason most Americans don't get it is because most Americans, as Mr. Sackur notes, are kind, giving, caring people. Americans are basically good at heart. Americans are also woefully ignorant of America's foreign policies, particularly as they are perceived by those that "hate us so." Most Americans would not treat their neighbors the way that America deals with its neighbors in the world community. Thus, we see the incongruity between the way Americans perceive themselves and their country and the way that the rest of the world perceives America, and, by extension, Americans.
The bottom line is that America acts in her own best interest, where most Americans act with an eye toward others' well-being. For example, America did not attack Saddam because America had any particular love for the Kuwaitis or in an attempt to prevent manifest injustice. We attacked Saddam because it was in our nation's best interest -- period. We needed to ensure a steady supply of oil. The reason America has not intervened (at least not seriously) in a similar manner in countless other hot spots in the world is because doing so would not be in our nation's best interest.
Does the fact that America acts in her own best interest make her evil? Of course not. It is quite easy for self-righteous Europeans (and Canadians or Aussies for that matter) to sit in the cheap seats and take pot shots at America. However, you Europeans, Canadians, and Aussies are naive if you think that America is acting any differently than your countries would act given the same opportunity. The fact is that no country has ever occupied the seat of power that America does now. We are, to some extent, making it up as we go along. I, for one, think we are doing a fair job of it.
When judging the actions of America, remember that we are not acting in the best interest of Europe, Canada, or Australia, or even the world-at-large. America acts in America's best interest. If your country's best interests happen to overlap with ours, then we may also act in your best interest. If you judge what America does by how it affects the world community, you will most often be disappointed and disapprove. So be it.
Countries cannot afford to act like individuals. Countries must, at times, act purely selfishly and in ruthless defense of their well being. America understands this--so should the rest of the world.
- JNOV