Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Hristo on July 15, 2002, 05:53:56 AM
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Saw the movie yesterday...all in all a nice piece.
As for combat scenes, yuck. Those Buchons were flown by half-idiots !
Did US filmmakers ever hear of Hartmann, Rall, Barkhorn and others ? Is there any movie that even remotely suggests that LW had actually pilots with more than 1 victory ? So far I have seen LW pilots making a kill where they wound a poor American plane. They are readily punished and explode in mid air after a Rambo "you'll pay for this Jerry" burst, while our dying hero has the time to make his poetic last speech.
If Allied aces with 9.124 kills are portrayed as uberhumans kicking LW but around, I can only imagine how would a film of Hartmann look. Demolition man, anyone ?
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The Tuskegee Airmen were bad asses. The Germans got to know the "Red Tails".
I don't think a movie of Hartmann would ever get to production. I mean the German art that is stored in the National Archives will NEVER be in Germany again.
Masher
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Tuskegee Airmen did not have an outstanding record against LW fighters. But LW fighters did not have an outstanding record against them either.
The outstanding part came in the form of not a single bomber being lost to enemy fighters while they were flying escort.
No matter how you spell it out... that is outstanding and no amount of tossing out LW aces names will overshadow that.
For every Ace there's 5 victims. And how many pilots for either side had less than 5 kills? How many had 1 kill and then died?
I don't believe the movie indicated that the Airmen were invincible... seems one of them died every time LW planes were involved (even though a LW plane wasn't necessarily shot down).
Leave it to an LW pilot to complain that things were modeled historically.
AKDejaVu
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Originally posted by Hristo
Saw the movie yesterday...all in all a nice piece.
As for combat scenes, yuck. Those Buchons were flown by half-idiots !
Did US filmmakers ever hear of Hartmann, Rall, Barkhorn and others ? Is there any movie that even remotely suggests that LW had actually pilots with more than 1 victory ? So far I have seen LW pilots making a kill where they wound a poor American plane. They are readily punished and explode in mid air after a Rambo "you'll pay for this Jerry" burst, while our dying hero has the time to make his poetic last speech.
If Allied aces with 9.124 kills are portrayed as uberhumans kicking LW but around, I can only imagine how would a film of Hartmann look. Demolition man, anyone ?
Not sure if I remember the Rambo scene...but I do recall the scene in which the guy from the Cosby show went after a group of German planes, against orders. He was very skillfully cut off from his buddies, shot down and was killed.
I think their (Tuskegee airmen's) record in the air speaks for itself and the show was a fair reflection of that.
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Taking nothing away from the Tuskegee group, met one at an airshow in Lakeland once, but due to there late deployment and then the location of their deployment, they did have it "easier" than the earlier pilots.
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3 P51s met 4 higher Buchons. One of the P51 (Malcolm Jamal Warner) went to attack them. One Buchon got on his six and wounds him. Lt. Lee (Morpheus from Matrix ;)) says : "why don't you fight me instead, Jerry ?" and promptly forces the Buchon to run away. Other P51 stays for cover.
Question - where were 3 other Buchons ?
Second battle. Fortresses were attacked by Buchons again. A guy named train shoots 2 of them, both exploded beautifully. Another Buchon gets behind him and mortally wounds him. Here comes our Rambo Morpheus and dispatches the Buchon who again explodes beautifully.
Questions - who used cannons, p51s or 109s ?
I'd really like to see the action where Hartmann shoots 4 P51s filmed - but who knows, maybe there would be Morpheus to chase him away ;).
Or Rudorffer's 13 kill sortie.
Or Marseille's 17 kill in a day.
Or Lang's 18.
Private Ryan has one particularly stupid scene. Both Germans and Americans are facing each other, pointing guns, a group of Americans shoots the Germans from above. Germans don't fire a single shot, no American is even wounded. A US officer saying "Gee, thanks !" should be appropriate end to the scene ;).
That crap made my fly LW in these sims in the first place. A constant image of underdog.
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Fair enough...saw the film a long time ago.
I would like to see a flim on Hartmann personally...or any of the top German aces.
You are right...they were incredible pilots.
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A movie encompassing both sides during Western or Eastern front air war would suffice.
I'm going to start writing the screenplay soon.
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Ok, oddly enough, I can't blow up a ship with a P-51D like they did :D
Hollywood at its finest or... ? ;)
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Private Ryan has one particularly stupid scene. Both Germans and Americans are facing each other, pointing guns, a group of Americans shoots the Germans from above. Germans don't fire a single shot, no American is even wounded. A US officer saying "Gee, thanks !" should be appropriate end to the scene .
Without trying to start a "Nazi hero" thread, the above scene is very similar to action that my Uncle experienced in France. He landed on D-Day +5. He often told of the time his squad came around a corner and were face to face with a German squad. They just stared at each other for a long time. When I would ask what happened next, he just would say, "well I'm here".
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Hmm, if I had a sponsor, I'd do an all CG movie. At least combat scenes would feature historical stuff.
Anyone willing to support the idea ? ;)
j/k, the amount of work would require years for one person...
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Originally posted by midnight Target
Without trying to start a "Nazi hero" thread, the above scene is very similar to action that my Uncle experienced in France. He landed on D-Day +5. He often told of the time his squad came around a corner and were face to face with a German squad. They just stared at each other for a long time. When I would ask what happened next, he just would say, "well I'm here".
Meeting engagements like the one your uncle faced were pretty common. The guys who reacted first got to say "well I'm here"
A friend of mine was a Abrams commander in the gulf war. He tells me that they ran right through the middle of a Republican gaurd tank unit one night. Before the Gaurd could respond they had eliminated them to the last tank. Oh btw they never stopped moving and did all of it on the go.
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The only reason I said "feared" was because of the fact that they held off all LW pilots from shooting down a Buff. Sorry for the confusion gent's, I could have been more clearer.
Masher
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And btw, The heroics of the Airmen came not from their actions against the enemy, but from their actions period. They kicked the door down and kept it open for future generations.
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Originally posted by midnight Target
And btw, The heroics of the Airmen came not from their actions against the enemy, but from their actions period. They kicked the door down and kept it open for future generations.
I think that it came from their flying too...but you are spot on midnight.:)
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Originally posted by Eagler
Taking nothing away from the Tuskegee group, met one at an airshow in Lakeland once, but due to there late deployment and then the location of their deployment, they did have it "easier" than the earlier pilots.
see this
http://www.virtualpilots.fi/hist/WW2History-ErichHartmann.html#p51vshartmann
cool story - Hartmann was in southern Europe dogfighting Italy-based Allied fighters in late '44/early '45, when the Red Tails were in the same area.
As for why there is no Hartmann movie - the average movie is about 90 minutes long - or about 15 seconds per Hartmann kill.
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I read on a Tuskegee site that the Red Tails sank an enemy destroyer with MG fire..I think THAT is badass!
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As I said, without getting personal (yes, Oedipus, you), this quasihistorical crap is just the thing which pushed me towards flying LW. Portraying pilots who individually shot down hundreds of planes as idiots just gets to me.
I just love to bounce on poor kiddies who take off in P51s and expect to rack up kills here.
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Hristo,
You are seriously erring when you try to use German aces to describe every pilot that flew for Germany. For every ace, there's at least 5 idiots. The allies had their share of them... as did the Germans.
It seems to me that these clips were actually more realistic than most dogfights. Chaos and bad explanation for just exactly what transpired. I bet that sums up about 80% of all WW2 engagements.
Its one of the reasons why individual pilots stood out from the rest. Their ability to keep it together in total confusion. To make the right decisions when it really mattered and your life was on the line. That's a rare quality. Its a quality that few people consider in the "I could be a good fighter pilot" threads I see occasionally.
And... to whomever knocked the destroyer scene. That did happen according to history. The characters in the movie even joke about "we both know it was luck". Its called the golden bb... they hit the ammo cache.
AKDejaVu
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Fair enough, Deja.
Still, pilots like top LW aces deserve at least one movie. Their score never was and never will be surpassed.
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Yes, but the German aces were better. And they had to fight against hopeless odds most of the time.
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Since this is a game, I can take my roleplaying in here, now can I ?
I'd fly tie fighter over x-wing anyday !
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LOL
I dunno why really, but I think almost all of the LW sticks would rather fly tie than xwing.
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Originally posted by Hortlund
LOL
I dunno why really, but I think almost all of the LW sticks would rather fly tie than xwing.
I guess my son is gonna be a LW...when I suggested he was Luke Skywalker while playing lightsabres with him he frowned and said "I am Emperor"...he turns 3 on August 5....
(Hortlund...did you get my e-mail?)
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Yes, but the German aces were better. And they had to fight against hopeless odds most of the time
The truly hopeless odds the German pilots faced was the odds of managing to get out before the end the war. They just did not get rotated out, there were too few pilots and too many allied planes for that. I can't think of any reason why an allied pilot, if they flew for the duration of the war or of their luck (whichever came first), could not have achieved 350 victories.
It is also true that the Tuskegee Airmen never lost a bomber. But there was also a price paid for this performance. Their commander would not allow them to pursue the enemy, they always had to hang with bombers. This had two results: 1) It held the Tuskegee Airmen's victory count lower than it would have been otherwise and 2) Allowed a German pilot to come back, a little older and little wiser, another day. It is kind of ironic that one of the "mistakes" in doctrine that the Germans made in the Battle of Britain is a source of pride for a squadron on Allied side later isn't it?
Aside: I'm at lunch and so can't look it up, isn't it also true that Eric Hartman never lost a wingman?
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Originally posted by Curval
I guess my son is gonna be a LW...when I suggested he was Luke Skywalker while playing lightsabres with him he frowned and said "I am Emperor"...he turns 3 on August 5....
(Hortlund...did you get my e-mail?)
Heh, yeah, I'm gonna have to get my kid interested in Star Wars soon too (he is 1,5).
(you should have my reply by now, Im heading over to the DA now)
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Originally posted by Hortlund
LOL
I dunno why really, but I think almost all of the LW sticks would rather fly tie than xwing.
pffffffffffffffffffff .....
You know the answer : ROLL RATE !
and it was designed by Kurt tank ...
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Originally posted by Hortlund
Heh, yeah, I'm gonna have to get my kid interested in Star Wars soon too (he is 1,5).
(you should have my reply by now, Im heading over to the DA now)
Still at work bud...gotta be later...
Be careful getting him into Star Wars...he pesters me CONSTANTLY to play "Rogue Squadron"..which is so pathetically easy compared to AH that it bores me to tears.
Plus...your wife will get upset by the number of times he will "shoot her" or "light sabre her" when she is trying to get a point across to him. He gets into NO trouble...that falls on you for getting him into Star Wars in the first place.
:D
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it might also be important to note that the Tuskeegee airmen, because of the racism that kept them out of combat, spent many extra months, training before being deployed. probably the best trained fighter group sent into combat in WW2.
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Hristo,
Don't believe everything you read about ubermensch pilots.
Marseille never got 17 in one day. He claimed 17, but that is a far sight from actually getting them. As it happens, British records show that they had less than 17 aircraft operating in the area that day and did not even lose all of them.
When you read about a pilot getting kills with 3 rounds of 7.92mm ammo, be very, very skeptical.
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It's been awhile since I've seen this movie, but I've seen it twice and I've read a book about these guys. No American pilots were so unappreciated. At a time when fighter pilots were worshiped, many people in power only wanted the Tuskegee airmen to fail, and for the "experiment" to end and be forgotten. The thought that blacks could become heros, and do things that not all white soldiers could do was an unacceptable thought for many.
To get a glimpse of how difficult bomber escort was, try doing it in AH. The objective is to protect the bombers, not to kill the bad guys going after your bombers. Even if means giving up an advantageous position that could lead to a kill. Sticking with the bombers no matter what is a very hard thing to do.
The scene in the movie where the Tuskegee pilot broke away and went after the enemy (in frustration) was an example of exactly what not to do. This scene was the EXCEPTION to how the Tuskegee Airmen typically performed. It was shown to illustrate how tempting it was for escort fighter pilots to follow their aggressive nature.
More importantly, it was shown to illustrate how much of a consequence ONE mistake could be to these black airmen. A white pilot making the same mistake would have possibly been called a hero, or perhaps given a posthumous medal for "fighting against the odds". For the Tuskegee Airmen, however, this one mistake, by one pilot, almost ended the entire Tuskegee project.
Perhaps the most important theme in this movie was that the Tuskegee Airmen had to live and fly with perfect discipline, 100% of the time. They were not given any slack. Even their own leaders and supporters knew that any negative mole-hill of a mistake, could become a unit crushing mountain.
Another critical theme was that they had to perform at their best, knowing that they were largely unappreciated, often hated, second class citizens.
As for the quality of LW pilots on the Western front, do the math:
* The LW had lost many experienced pilots by the time the US introduced the P-51D.
* German aircraft production was relatively huge.
* Fuel for the LW was becoming scarce.
* The LW needed pilots desperately.
Lots of planes + not nearly enough experienced pilots + no fuel + no time = many poorly trained, inexperienced pilots.
There were lots of good German pilots on all fronts. But, as the war progressed, more and more LW pilots recieved grossly inadequate training.
And yes, I would love to see a movie about any of the great LW pilots.
eskimo
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Hmmmm lemme see, if Hollywood does a LW Aces movie I'm not so sure it'd be a good thing.
Ya know somehow they're gonna weazel a love story into a la Pearl Harbour, and seeing grown men kissing each other in leather thongs is not everyones cup of tea.
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George Beurling got 25+ kills in 4 months at Malta extend that over 5 years = 375 (similar number to Hartmann). Erich Hartmann got most for his kills on the eastern front, which, like Malta (& unlike the werstern front), was constant action. However, Hartmann got (i think) all of his kills 1943 - May 1945, or in about 2.5 years...damn, now i forgot the point i was going to make. interesting numbers, tho...
Also, the Tuskegee Red Tails will be remembered long after the Blue Nosed Bastards of Bodney are forgotten, so there is justice eventually (nothing against the Blue Nosed Bastards of Bodney, they provided - and possibly patronized - great escort service as well)
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Why would anybody want to make a film glorifying a bunch of Nazis?
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Who do you mean, funked ? Hitler, Goering, Stalin and MacCarthy are already portrayed in quite many movies, AFAIK.
OTOH, great pilots weren't even mentioned anywhere. Pilots whose record greatly surpassed record of all others.
Guenther Scheel, for instance, had best strike rate...he shot doen more planes than he flew sorties.
Hartmann - 352, enough said.
Galland - from Spain to Berlin, or Buenos Aires, if you want.
What about Sakai ? Was he a Nazi too ?
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Originally posted by whgates3
George Beurling got 25+ kills in 4 months at Malta extend that over 5 years = 375 (similar number to Hartmann).
Yeah, I dont see why anyone should having any problems counting like that. Hmm..let see, Marseille shot down 17 aircraft in one day, extend that over 5 years = 31 025 kills.
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Originally posted by funkedup
Why would anybody want to make a film glorifying a bunch of Nazis?
I see funked here needs to understand how capitalism works.
Short answer: to make money.
Now quit trolling and move along.
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Rall once said: "It was either wooden cross or Iron Cross".
That line alone might be a good start for a movie scenario.
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Originally posted by Karnak
Marseille never got 17 in one day. He claimed 17, but that is a far sight from actually getting them. As it happens, British records show that they had less than 17 aircraft operating in the area that day and did not even lose all of them.
When you read about a pilot getting kills with 3 rounds of 7.92mm ammo, be very, very skeptical.
On September 1st 1942 Marseille down 17 allies planes in three sorties. His first encounter that day was with a P-40 which had attacked a flight of Stukas. It went down in flames rather quickly. Then six Spitfires acting as escort to Kittyhawks dropped down on Marseilles flight of Bf-109s. Marseille lowered his flaps and throttled back almost stalling his aircraft, causing the Spitfires to shoot past him. The last one got a full course meal from of Jochen's 20-mm canons and machine guns. The British fighter literally disintegrated in mid air. In the short skirmish which then transpired, another Spit was victimized by Marseille, as well as a second P-40 trying to escape on deck.
Times of victories: 08:28; 08:30; 08:33; 08:39.
On his second flight that morning, Jochen flew top cover for Ju-87s. They ran into big party of DAF fighters and bombers. Marseille with his wingman intercepted eight P-40s on their dive for Stukas, and allies planes formed a defensive circle soon after this. He shot down two of his opponents immediately and the circle broke up. As they scattered, Jochen knocked down three more. He took his sixth after short chase, with a very long deflection shot. Throughout all this, his wingman flew close cover. They both climbed up again only to spot another flight of unsuspecting Kittyhawks. Marseille approached alone and shot down his seventh. After turning home he came upon yet another P-40 trailing white smoke. It became his eighth in this flight and probably was his easiest victim.
Times of victories: 10:55; 10:56; 10:58; 10:59; 11:01; 11:02; 11:03; 11:05.
Eight aircraft in ten minutes! Back in the base, as soon as he opened the canopy of his 109, he learned that Feldmarschall Kesselring was visiting his unit. Upon reporting to Operations HQ tent, Marseille declared 12 enemy aircraft shot down. Kesselring inquired of him the number he shot himself, and Jochen replied accordingly: "Twelve, Sir". His supreme commander did not say a word. Later, he admitted to being astonished.
That was a very busy day for all pilots of the JG-27. After a meal and a short rest, Marseille departed as an escort to Ju-88s which were seeking to bomb British troops concentrations. The battle of Alam el Halfa was at its highest point. Fifteen P-40s attacked Junkers, which in turn were attacked by Marseille's pilots. A series of dogfights erupted which gradually brought fighting aircraft from 5,000 feet to almost ground level. In this aerial fracas the "Eagle of Africa" shot down another five P-40s.
Times of victories: 18:46; 18:47; 18:48; 18:49; 18:53.
That brought his daily tally to seventeen. That was a great deal of scrap production for one man! Understandably, there was a lot of celebrating with shnaps and egg flips that evening, in a tent set up as a cocktail bar by Marseille himself. The only problem was the fact that the German pilots did not stop the enemy bombers, which inflicted heavy loses on Afrika Korps.
Apparently, there is still a lot debating whether it really happened. Shooting seventeen aircraft in one day is certainly possible. Emil "Bully" Lang claimed eighteen victories in one day. They were achieved however on Russian front where opposition was much less potent, especially when mounted by lousy, poorly flown and maintained P-39s. Luftwaffe procedures were very strict when it came to confirmation of victories. To register one, pilot had to fill comprehensive victory report which was followed by combat report. To this, Gruppenkommandeur endorsement had to be attached. Then a report from Unteroffizier from air intelligence regiment was added. A report from a witness (or preferably two) completed the claim. There wasn't much room to overclaim, and the Luftwaffe was difficult to fool. It is worth noticing that in October 1941 long range nightfighting was abandoned, even though it resulted in many successful sorties over Britain. This happened mostly because it was impossible to confirm victories claimed by German Nachtjagd. Marseille's seventeen aircraft downed on September 1st was confirmed in Berlin.
It is well known fact that his tidy-minded armourers kept account of rounds expended for each sortie. That was used to calculate the amount of ammunition which Marseille needed for each kill. Combat reports analyzed in Berlin showed that, at the peak of his abilities, Marseille needed 15 shells per kill.
"Today I have experienced my hardest combat. But at the same it has been my most wonderful experience of comradeship in the air. We had combat in the morning, at first with forty Hurricanes and Curtis's, later some twenty Spitfires appeared from above. We were eight Messerschmitts in the midst of an incredible whirling mass of enemy fighters. I flew my 109 for my life, but although the superior strength of the enemy was overwhelming, not one of us shirked our duty, all turning like madmen. I worked with every gramme of my energy, and by the time we finished I was foaming at my mouth being utterly exhausted. Again and again we had enemy fighters on our tails. I was forced to dive three or four times, but every time I did pull up and rushed into turmoil. Once I seemed to have no escape; I had flown my 109 to the limit of its performance, but a Spitfire was still behind me. At last moment Marseille shot it down, fifty meters from my aircraft. I dived and pulled up. Seconds later I saw a Spitfire behind Marseille. I took very careful aim at the enemy, and Spit went down burning. At the end of that combat only me and Marseille were left at the scene. Each of us has three victories. At home we climbed out of our planes and were thoroughly exhausted. Marseille had bullet holes in his 109, and I had eleven hits in mine. We embraced each other, and stand like this. We were unable to speak. It was unforgettable moment."
Hans-Arnold "Fifi" Stahlschmidt (59 victories)
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Originally posted by Hristo
Who do you mean, funked ? Hitler, Goering, Stalin and MacCarthy are already portrayed in quite many movies, AFAIK.
I think the key word here is GLORIFYING.
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I doubt many Americans in the general public have the desire to see a movie about Hartmann or any other German ace.
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Like Hartmann had a choice. What would happen to him if he refused to fly for Fuhrer in 1943 in Third Reich ?
(use your imagination)
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Originally posted by Nifty
I doubt many Americans in the general public have the desire to see a movie about Hartmann or any other German ace.
And I guarantee that I could make such a movie and the people would come see it in droves. It is all about presentation. Throw in a good lovestory and you have a box office hit.
Just to give you an idea:
Hartmann is played by the latest Hollywood sweetheart. I'm thinking Matt Damon. His girl is played by the latest Hollywood babe. I'm thinking Denise Richards (but thats just me)
Hartmann painted a red heart with the name of his girl on his rides...girls love stuff like that. AND I think he got married at some point during the war (not sure though). Throw in a couple of Hartmann on R&R meets girl scenes, and the love part is pretty much set.
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Focus of the movie should be on the eastern front, preferably in the later stages of the war. You can create a nice "last stand at Alamo"-feeling there...Americans love that, and they dont have too much of a problem with seeing communists as the enemy.
Hartmann flew with many very interesting characters, most notably Krupinsky and Grislawski. All these 3 men survived the war.
Grislawski was the one who traied Hartmann and he saved his life many times in the beginning. Here is a quote about him:
"Grislawski, a veteran from Hermann Graf’s 9. “Karaya” Staffel. Alfred Grislawski was a muscular son of a miner. Although he had refused to enter the Nazi Party – much under influence of his father, who still was a vehement anti-Nazi, he had scored large successes in the air war against the USSR. On 2 November 1942 he returned to base from his253rd combat flight with a report of one I-16 and one I-153 shot down, his 62nd and 63rd victories.
Grislawski was one of the toughest German fighter pilots. And he knew it. During combat missions he didn’t hesitate to “lighten his heart” whenever any of his comrades committed a mistake. Even his Gruppenkommandeur, Major Hubertus von Bonin, had his share of Grislawski’s “criticism”. Leutnant Hartmann was shocked as he once heard Grislawski addressing Major von Bonin in the R/T during a dogfight: "What the he** do you think you are doing? If you won’t listen to me you can kiss my ass!”
“I was to take responsability for the newcomer Erich Hartmann. I looked at him and thought: “Oh my God, what are they sending us now? What a baby!”
Krupinsky too was a real gem. Here is a quote about him:
...he was a "wild man" in the sky, and he picked Hartmann as his wingman - because all the NCO veterans refused to serve as his wingman. Krupinski never avoided any air combat, and on repeated occasions, he led Hartmann against Soviet aircraft formations from a terribly disadvantageous position. The story behind Krupinski was that he had served under Hptm. Johannes Steinhoff's harsh command in 1941, and Steinhoff had threatened to shift Krupinski to a reconnaissance unit if he didn't shape up as a fighter pilot. Krupinski was a notoriously bad gunner, and he made up for that by attacking the enemy on every possible occasion. It was sheer luck that he managed to survive the war. Flying together with Krupinski meant air combat on almost every mission.
Do you have any idea how much can be done with 3 characters like this? It would be so damn easy to make the public fall in love with all of them.
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So, so far we have, a good love story, and a guaranteed happy ending. We have 3 good friends flying fighters and each one of these friends have a strong personality. These 3 friends are fighting against hopeless odds against vile communists.
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ok, what else.
Make sure that the movie is 100% historically accurate when it comes to aircraft, and air combat...no one wants to see dogfights ala Pearl Harbor.
Downplay the side the German pilots were fighting for. Throw in lots of "I hate to do this, but I have to" or "Im fighting for Germany, not Hitler" -speeches. Here lots of guidance can be found in the movie "Gettysburg" and their portraits of the officers fighting for the South.
Some stuff to be included:
Hartmann was once shot down and captured. On August 20th 1943, he was downed twice. On the second occasion, he went down in Soviet-held territory, and was captured, but managed to escape and made it back to his own lines.
Do you have any idea how much one can do with that episode?
Hartmann became a legend in so many ways. His aircraft was recognized and feared by the soviets. So Hartmann would let the most inexperienced pilot in his unit fly in his plane, while Hartmann flew as that pilots wingman. When the Soviets spotted Hartmanns plane, often they did not dare attack it, but went for the wingman instead...after which Hartmann shot them down.
Do you have any idea how much one can do with that?
As I said, give me the money, and I'll make a movie so damn great kids will line up to play Luftwaffe aces.
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I read somewhere about a certain poll among Americans. What would you rather be:
A. an SS officer in Eastern front
B. a Soviet soldier in Eastern front
You'd be quite surprised about the outcome. Who knows, maybe just cold war propaganda.
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Originally posted by Hristo
I read somewhere about a certain poll among Americans. What would you rather be:
A. an SS officer in Eastern front
B. a Soviet soldier in Eastern front
You'd be quite surprised about the outcome. Who knows, maybe just cold war propaganda.
They probably didnt know what an SS officer was, hell youd be surprised how many people believe the Russians were the bad guys and the italians were part of the allies.
I know you would rather be the SS guy even though you wont admit it.
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i want to be UBER SOLDAT LIKE IN WOLFTENSTEIN 3D WHERE TEY HAVE ROBOTS THAT KILL THE GERMAN SCIENTISTS!! WOW THAT WAS COOL
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I agree with Oed' completely. No regard for Hartmann as a man, but you might have a good movie script there.
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So, all your countrymen refusing to go to Vietnam were respected ? Should GIs defect to North Vietnam after Mi Lai ?
If Hartmann took 109 to Switzerland or Britain, his family would end up in concetration camp. Period. He was in his early 20s, proud pilot flying for his nation in war. He did his best.
Allied bomber crews deserve simpathy ? 90% of their targets were german cities. Dresden anyone ?
As for success of movie about Hartmann. Don't underestimate the discreet attraction of the dark side. You don't have to go further than Anakin Skywalker.
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Originally posted by Oedipus
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In the end that which they began by the Germans was dealt back to them at least ten fold. I guess it sucks to be the repressive aggressor and then get the sh&t kicked out of you.
Sympathy? You have to be kidding.
Thanks,
Oed
So basically what you are saying is that the allies were just as bad, or evil, as the Germans, and the Germans have no right to expect any sympathy.
I agree. The interesting point however is that the allies were just as bad as the Germans (although they did manage to kill many more) when it comes to terrorbombing.
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But none of the allies made a point of one race being the penultimate while the others worthy of extermination... and then it being put into excercise.
Try and demonize the allies as much as you want Hortlund, but sheeit... even today's Germany doesn't want to be associated with the 3rd Reich... that SHOULD tell you something.
-SW
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Originally posted by AKSWulfe
But none of the allies made a point of one race being the penultimate while the others worthy of extermination... and then it being put into excercise.
Try and demonize the allies as much as you want Hortlund, but sheeit... even today's Germany doesn't want to be associated with the 3rd Reich... that SHOULD tell you something.
-SW
Ah, yes..how original...when discussing allied carpetbombing of German cities, the Holocaust pops into the discussion.
gee...never seen that happen before.
So, your point here is...what exactly?
Germany murdered many innocent Jews, therefore the fact that the allies murdered many German civilians is irrellevant?
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No, but you try to flip the card over that says "Hey, but you guys did it too!"
Okay, we did it AFTER Germany did it. See how it works? The Allies didn't initiate much of anything, the entire war was essentially retaliation after Germany stunned the world with it's Blitzkrieg, mass murdering of civilians, and then proceeding to terror bomb British cities (and others, but they didn't last quite as long as Britain held).
But again, you are trying to paint a portrait that Nazis and the Allies were just as evil. And that is exactly where the holocaust comes into play. One side was giving their lives to free a people and ensure freedom for future generations, the other side was giving their lives to further exterminate those people.
And you still try to make it out like the Allies were just as bad as Germany.....
-SW
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So, in other words, you are a closet NAZI sympathizer who dreams of going back to WWII and flying as a Luftwaffe pilot for the Fuhrer, and you try to justify this to yourself by coming to this BBS and being devil's advocate to NAZI warriors, pointing out that many German civilians were killed by Allied bombers (wich was a direct consequence of the actions by the same NAZIs you idolatrize secretly)
Hitler killed all those people in Dresden.
And no movies are made about Hartmann because no one wants to see a movie about a stinking racist NAZI with an overblown kill record without proof, set by propagandists as a poor example that NAZI warriors were better than the rest.
Oh, but he had no choice! :rolleyes:
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lol, here Oed'
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Oh and why the hell should Hollywood have portrayed the Tuskeege's losing against German aces?
They never encountered Hartmann. In fact, most NAZI pilots left then were kids with no combat experience.
NAZI pilots were as a whole average at best. There were the few aces with many kills (and any obvious, non biased person knows most were lies) but as pointed before, the grand mayority were mediocre pilots, no better or worse than the average American fighter pilot.
And the Tuskegee Airmen, having the pressure of proving that they were not sub-standard humans or apes incapable of excelling whites, really did well against the Krauts, as portrayed in the film.
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Originally posted by Animal
And no movies are made about Hartmann because no one wants to see a movie about a stinking racist NAZI with an overblown kill record without proof, set by propagandists as a poor example that NAZI warriors were better than the rest.
Chuck Yeager was gay, he had to offer his bellybutton to resistance so they smuggle him across. He actually enjoyed non-washing for 3 months. His sound barrier breaking is a fiction, everyone knows it was a cold war propaganda, trying to make US pilots better than rest.
How did I do ? ;)
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Clever guy, I guess you caught me. :mad:
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Originally posted by Hortlund
Ah, yes..how original...when discussing allied carpetbombing of German cities, the Holocaust pops into the discussion.
gee...never seen that happen before.
So, your point here is...what exactly?
Germany murdered many innocent Jews, therefore the fact that the allies murdered many German civilians is irrellevant?
The Axis civilians were bombed and killed in order to END the war, a war that was started by the Axis.
The Axis countries wanted to kill off or enslave the world population... this was evil at in its purist form.
The Allies wanted an end to this. They were FORCED into the war in order to protect themselves, and to free those who were already enslaved.
The Allies had to chose the most efficient methods to bring the Axis countries to their knees. Anything less would mean MORE Allied deaths. Why should they put themselves at greater risk?
What difference does it make if a 14 year old German boy dies after being forced (or brainwashed) into joining the Nazi party and military, versus dying during a bombing raid? The difference is, in the first circumstance he is given a gun, and poses a threat.
Axis wartime industrial infrastructure, was not just Messerschmitt factories and oil refineries in Polesti, it was everywhere. Almost all Axis citizens contributed to the Axis war waging might. This does not make these citizens evil.
It does not mean that they deserve to die.
Killing them, however, may be an unfortunate necessity in order to end a war that was costing thousands of lives on both sides on a daily basis.
eskimo
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And original idea of the thread was the portrayal of Axis pilots as flying idiots in Hollywood movies.
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Originally posted by Animal
So, in other words, you are a closet NAZI sympathizer who dreams of going back to WWII and flying as a Luftwaffe pilot for the Fuhrer, and you try to justify this to yourself by coming to this BBS and being devil's advocate to NAZI warriors, pointing out that many German civilians were killed by Allied bombers (wich was a direct consequence of the actions by the same NAZIs you idolatrize secretly)
Hitler killed all those people in Dresden.
And no movies are made about Hartmann because no one wants to see a movie about a stinking racist NAZI with an overblown kill record without proof, set by propagandists as a poor example that NAZI warriors were better than the rest.
Oh, but he had no choice! :rolleyes:
Animal, Animal, Animal... Try to listen to classical music, apparently that has been known to stimulate IQ. Maybe Nath can give you some tips on good music.
We could sit here all night and discuss various cause and effect-relations. All of which would probably be very interesting on some philosophical level... Let me just ask this: If you are of the opinion that someone other than the one giving the actual order is responsible for the obliteration of Dresden, then why stop at Hitler? Why not go to the root causes of why Hitler came to power? Well, should we blame the versaille treaty (=France)? Or how about Hitlers parents?
And apparently you dont know all that much about how a German pilot was awarded a kill. But that was to be expected. Let me just say that it was harder for a German pilot to be awarded a kill than an allied pilot.
And trust me, if I had the money, I could make a movie about Hartmann that would have kids lining up to play luftwaffe aces.
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Originally posted by eskimo2
The Axis civilians were bombed and killed in order to END the war, a war that was started by the Axis.
The Axis countries wanted to kill off or enslave the world population... this was evil at in its purist form.
The Allies wanted an end to this. They were FORCED into the war in order to protect themselves, and to free those who were already enslaved.
[/b]
Oh dear...I dont know where to start.
Ok, first, your version of basic historical facts seems to be a bit...biased.
Remember that the Soviet union was one of "the allies", and whatever they fought for, they saw no problem with enslaving millions of people. The Soviet union (or, one of the allies) ended up killing and enslaving many more of the world population than the Germans did...by your own logic, this must be an even purer form of evil.
Lets try this for starters... The ends does not justify the means. Meaning that the war in europe could have been ended in many ways, such as a massive bombardment of Germany using poison gas.
The Allies had to chose the most efficient methods to bring the Axis countries to their knees. Anything less would mean MORE Allied deaths. Why should they put themselves at greater risk?
[/b]
See above. The ends does not justify the means
What difference does it make if a 14 year old German boy dies after being forced (or brainwashed) into joining the Nazi party and military, versus dying during a bombing raid? The difference is, in the first circumstance he is given a gun, and poses a threat.
[/b]
Are you really saying that in your opinion, there is no difference between killing a soldier (a combatant) and a civilian (a non combatant)? Think before you answer here, especially in light of 9-11.
Axis wartime industrial infrastructure, was not just Messerschmitt factories and oil refineries in Polesti, it was everywhere. Almost all Axis citizens contributed to the Axis war waging might. This does not make these citizens evil.
It does not mean that they deserve to die.
Killing them, however, may be an unfortunate necessity in order to end a war that was costing thousands of lives on both sides on a daily basis.
[/b]
That is irrellevant. Killing them is still a crime. See above regarding combatants and non-combatants.
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Originally posted by Hortlund
Animal, Animal, Animal... Try to listen to classical music, apparently that has been known to stimulate IQ. Maybe Nath can give you some tips on good music.
We could sit here all night and discuss various cause and effect-relations. All of which would probably be very interesting on some philosophical level... Let me just ask this: If you are of the opinion that someone other than the one giving the actual order is responsible for the obliteration of Dresden, then why stop at Hitler? Why not go to the root causes of why Hitler came to power? Well, should we blame the versaille treaty (=France)? Or how about Hitlers parents?
And apparently you dont know all that much about how a German pilot was awarded a kill. But that was to be expected. Let me just say that it was harder for a German pilot to be awarded a kill than an allied pilot.
And trust me, if I had the money, I could make a movie about Hartmann that would have kids lining up to play luftwaffe aces.
LOL!!!
You sound more retarded with every post. I have no idea where the music crap came from in relation to this thread, but I guess its some kind of idiotic crutch you use in your arguements to discredit what I wrote and make yourself seem more sophisticated. Maybe it was a cry-for-help to get Nath or some other person to come and help you out.
And the three Animal's for dramatic effect were hilarious.
My music background aside; you are a moron.
Let me just ask this: If you are of the opinion that someone other than the one giving the actual order is responsible for the obliteration of Dresden, then why stop at Hitler? Why not go to the root causes of why Hitler came to power? Well, should we blame the versaille treaty (=France)? Or how about Hitlers parents?
Oh, you are somehow trying to defend Hitler now! am I right?
The person who gave the order to bomb Dresden would have been living peacefuly at home with his family, if it was not for Hitler and the nutcases who followed his orders, and then, with defeat stamped on their foreheads, still refused to surrender and spare thousands of German lives. If you were alive during the war, there is no doubt you'd be one of these NAZI nutcases.
And apparently you dont know all that much about how a German pilot was awarded a kill. But that was to be expected. Let me just say that it was harder for a German pilot to be awarded a kill than an allied pilot.
Oh educamate us!
I was wrong! The German propagandists where fair, honest people whose mission was to enlighten the rest of the world on the prowess of the superior German super-soldiers!
And thanks for clearing out that it was harder for a German pilot to be awarded a kill.
It sure was! I mean, you said so! ON THE INTERNET!!!
And trust me, if I had the money, I could make a movie about Hartmann that would have kids lining up to play luftwaffe aces.
I doubt the rest of the youth in the modern era are as clueless and weakminded as the Hitler youth. Thankfully, you dont have the money to create your master work of propaganda, to turn the kids of the world into NAZI Luftwaffe pilot wannabes. Also thankfully, they are too busy dreaming of becoming rock stars, entrepreneurs, scientists, etc.
If your target audience is idiots like yourself, you dont need much effort to convince them that the Arian warrior is a genetically superior race, capable of killing several planes with a single 20mm round.
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Why are you laughing at your own stupidity? :confused:
The "music crap", well there was a study made at some US university a couple of years ago that showed that students who listened to classical music during an IQ test performed better than students who listened to "normal" music.
Ok, although I get the sinking feeling that this will be another one of those classical "might just as well argue with a wall"-threads, I'll answer your ramblings.
Please answer this first: Is it your opinion that Hitler is responsible for every single event that took place during ww2 since "he started it"? Does that mean that there is no individual guilt for anyone else, since everyone else were forced into whatever situation they found themselves in by Hitler and his starting of ww2?
Before you answer that one, please take a minute or two and ponder the various consequences of your answer.
If you doubt my statement about the German kill-claims system, then perhaps you should try reading a book on the subject sometime. Instead of just sitting here and display a stunning combination of arrogance and ignorance. Might increase your chances of being taken seriously next time.
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Why are you so hell bent on defending NAZI germany because they started a war and then got a few thousand tons of bombs dropped on their cities...
but the Japanese get 2 nukes, I don't see you crying foul for them, or giving us the uber l33t speech about fighting as underdogs.... 2 years after they started a war...
But no, the Germans were blonde hair, blue eye knights out to cleanse the world of the evil Jews and other "subhumans" that Hitler decided he hated because they were "inferior"... so we gots to be defendin' 'dem... und der uber LuftWaffen piloten out only to be like Richtoffen... with a dash of mass genocide.
-SW
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Originally posted by AKSWulfe
Why are you so hell bent on defending NAZI germany because they started a war and then got a few thousand tons of bombs dropped on their cities...
but the Japanese get 2 nukes, I don't see you crying foul for them, or giving us the uber l33t speech about fighting as underdogs.... 2 years after they started a war...
But no, the Germans were blonde hair, blue eye knights out to cleanse the world of the evil Jews and other "subhumans" that Hitler decided he hated because they were "inferior"... so we gots to be defendin' 'dem... und der uber LuftWaffen piloten out only to be like Richtoffen... with a dash of mass genocide.
-SW
If you take a look at what I have posted on the subject of Germany 1934-45 you will not find any defence for "NAZI Germany" (btw, the caps was a nice touch). You will find me arguing that not all Germans were nazis, that German soldiers were humans too, that German civilians were slaughtered, that not all Germans were evil to the core and all allies were good, that the allies committed crimes too.
Apparently this provokes you enough to post what you just posted, with veiled insinuations that I am a revisionist or worse.
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Why are you laughing at your own stupidity?
Actually, I am laughing at yours.
LOL <---- there, now I'm laughing at it again, for not realizing the obvious.
The "music crap", well there was a study made at some US university a couple of years ago that showed that students who listened to classical music during an IQ test performed better than students who listened to "normal" music.
No, the music crap was you trying to divert the conversation in an attempt to save face. And from my end its a beautiful example of your ignorance. You'd understand if you ever found out about my musical background ;) But I'm not going to brag about that now, lets stick to the original subject.
Please answer this first: Is it your opinion that Hitler is responsible for every single event that took place during ww2 since "he started it"? Does that mean that there is no individual guilt for anyone else, since everyone else were forced into whatever situation they found themselves in by Hitler and his starting of ww2?
He was the one person on top who had the power to end the war and the suffering of his own people. And he didnt. He would rather see all of the people of Germany die rather than surrender. He said it himself, that if the invaders wanted Germany, all they would get was a wasteland.
So, the answer to your question is: YES. And it is not my opinion. Its a fact.
Before you answer that one, please take a minute or two and ponder the various consequences of your answer.
Oh, now I have to watch what I say? Is this some kind of threat? OH MY, LOL!!!
If you doubt my statement about the German kill-claims system, then perhaps you should try reading a book on the subject sometime. Instead of just sitting here and display a stunning combination of arrogance and ignorance. Might increase your chances of being taken seriously next time.
Taken seriously?
In other words, you believe everyone takes the garbage you type seriously?
You are a clueless retard, thats what you are.
Go educate yourself on Word War II history, open your eyes and realize that WWII German propaganda were outright lies, even modern Germans are ashamed of it all, and rightly so.
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Veiled? toejam, I outright accused you of being a NAZI sympathizer/revisionist in the Aircraft and Vehicles forum.
And that's actually how you're supposed to write it... being that it's an abbreviation and all of the Nationalist Socialist (in German) party.
Not all Germans were NAZIs, true, but they got a bad leader and let him take the reigns... following "blindly" the whole time. I put blindly in quotes, because, well... there wasn't a damn civilian NAZI when Germany capitulated. Soldiers... well the prideful ones admitted to being NAZIs... the rest, well they feigned knowledge.
You keep saying there's no hard numbers for how many Germans died in Dresden... there ain't no hard numbers for how many of those Germans were actually NAZIs. Virtually every video that came out of the 3rd Reich featured thousands upon thousands of civilians standing along the side of roads watching their military roll down the streets. Two things those videos are never short of, Swastikas and blatant support of the NAZI party... the salute and everything.
Then, you go and think about it... hey, NAZI itself isn't that bad of a word... damn, Swastikas ain't really that bad either.... the killing of millions of Jews is what tainted those two words, and this was carried out by none other than Hitler and his minions. Civilians included, many of those f'ers turned in Jewish people to der fuhrer. Tell me those "civilians" weren't NAZIs... then tell me they didn't deserve to die alongside those NAZI soldiers... then tell me, how in the f*ck did virtually every Jewish person in hiding IN GERMAN CITIES knew that if they got caught and hauled away they would be exterminated... but somehow, the ever-so-innocent germans living in those cities didn't know.
Yes, there were probably a few civilians who helped Jews escape. Maybe even some officers in germany's armed services... but THOSE people were few and far between. The rest I'd venture a guess at saying, if they didn't know(about the concentration camps, and the rounding up of jews/blacks/etc wasn't to kill 'em)... they were lying.
Of course we'll never know... but attempting to make excuses for them, or trying to put the Allies down on their level... that's borderline revisionist/sympathizing.
-SW
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Just some statistics on the Red Tails (Tuskegee Airmen)....
"When the war ended, the 332nd and the 99th had flown 1578 missions and more than 15,000 sorties. They had sent 450 pilots into combat, of whom 66, or more than one out of seven had given their lives.
Some other totals:
Planes destroyed or damaged in the air: 136
On the ground: 273
Barges and boats destroyed: 40
Locomotives: 126
Rolling stock:(dunno what this is) 619
Trucks, cars: 87
And the statistic they were most proud of:
Friendly bombers lost to enemy fighters 0
It is easy to fall into the trap of emphasizing aerial victories, which the pilots themselves regarded as one of the less significant aspects of their job. Their mission was not a game in which both sides kept score. There was much more at stake. How many bombers and their crews were saved because the Red Tails were weaving protectively above them, warding off enemy fighters? The cost of the bombers and the training of their crews alone was incalculable. How many wives, parents, and children welcomed home men who had been spared death thanks to their red-tailed escorts?"
that excerpt is from the book "Red Tails, Black Wings" by John B. Holway. ISBN:1-881325-21-0 It's a VERY good book.
You think the LuftWaffe had it hard at any point? toejam, you need to read this book... then you'll know a struggle against outnumbered odds that are trying their damndest to guarantee you lose... the LuftWaffe had it easy!
EDIT: Oh, and Hortlund.. you think the LuftWaffe had the most rigorous way of getting credited with kills?
From the same book as above:
"The kills and damages we scored are probably many more than we have records for," Spanky Roberts said:
If a plane wasn't clearly seen crashing or burning, or the pilot wasn't clearly seen jumping out, we didn't even try to claim it, because we knew we weren't going to get any credit for it. We were accused of falsifying figures and even pictures. That always seemed interesting to me that we did things to our cameras to make them reveal things that didn't happen. If we were so beastly smart, why did they think we weren't beastly good pilots too? We didn't develop the film."
-SW
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dam Stevie, Maybe you oughta go back to defending that conservative trollop in the other thread. :rolleyes:
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Originally posted by AKSWulfe
Veiled? toejam, I outright accused you of being a NAZI sympathizer/revisionist in the Aircraft and Vehicles forum.
[/b]
Yeah, your mom must be so proud. I thought you took that back actually.
And that's actually how you're supposed to write it... being that it's an abbreviation and all of the Nationalist Socialist (in German) party.
[/b]
actually...The correct abbrevation would be NSDAP.
Not all Germans were NAZIs, true, but they got a bad leader and let him take the reigns... following "blindly" the whole time. I put blindly in quotes, because, well... there wasn't a damn civilian NAZI when Germany capitulated. Soldiers... well the prideful ones admitted to being NAZIs... the rest, well they feigned knowledge.
You keep saying there's no hard numbers for how many Germans died in Dresden... there ain't no hard numbers for how many of those Germans were actually NAZIs. Virtually every video that came out of the 3rd Reich featured thousands upon thousands of civilians standing along the side of roads watching their military roll down the streets. Two things those videos are never short of, Swastikas and blatant support of the NAZI party... the salute and everything.
Then, you go and think about it... hey, NAZI itself isn't that bad of a word... damn, Swastikas ain't really that bad either.... the killing of millions of Jews is what tainted those two words, and this was carried out by none other than Hitler and his minions.
[/b]
I agree.
Civilians included, many of those f'ers turned in Jewish people to der fuhrer. Tell me those "civilians" weren't NAZIs... then tell me they didn't deserve to die alongside those NAZI soldiers... then tell me, how in the f*ck did virtually every Jewish person in hiding IN GERMAN CITIES knew that if they got caught and hauled away they would be exterminated... but somehow, the ever-so-innocent germans living in those cities didn't know.
Yes, there were probably a few civilians who helped Jews escape. Maybe even some officers in germany's armed services... but THOSE people were few and far between. The rest I'd venture a guess at saying, if they didn't know(about the concentration camps, and the rounding up of jews/blacks/etc wasn't to kill 'em)... they were lying.
Of course we'll never know...
Key phrase there at the end of the quote. But it seems very important to you to sit here and guess.
but attempting to make excuses for them, or trying to put the Allies down on their level... that's borderline revisionist/sympathizing.
[/b]
Show me a quote from me where I have tried to make excuses for the Holocaust. I am of the opinion though, that a crime will always be a crime regardless of the color of your uniform, but I have never said that what the western allies did were even remotely close to the holocaust. It still is a crime though.
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Originally posted by Animal
So, the answer to your question is: YES. And it is not my opinion. Its a fact.
...
even modern Germans are ashamed of it all, and rightly so.
I cant be bothered with the rest. If your musical background is any good, you should probably focus on that instead, since you seem incapable of coherent thought. (my guess is that you play a squeaking banjo)
ANYWAY
So in your opinion, people should walk around feeling ashamed for what now dead people did before they were born?
and
Hitler was responsible for Pearl Harbor. Himmler on the other hand was not responsible at all for the Holocaust...even though he gave the orders (since everything was Hitlers fault...remember what I wrote there about individual guilt?)
yeah...well thanks for trying anyway, back to the banjo now...run along.
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Yeah, your mom must be so proud.
Hmm, well Sweden must be proud of you for sticking up for their values. Stay the hell out of a war, declare neutrality, get buddy buddy with a neighboring nation practicing mass genocide and basically all of the evil you could ever imagine, then happily accept the gold, and jewels, from the very same people that this genocide is being carried out against in return for steel and other materials that would be used for war.
Ah yes, so proud.
I thought you took that back actually.
Nope... everytime you post you just reinforce my opinion. Always attempting to make criminals out of the Allies while in turn giving the LuftWaffe pilots hand jobs because they were so super. You show me a war that's civilized, and I'll concede that bombing civilians is a crime. AFAIK, no LuftWaffe bomber crews were put on trial in Geneva after WWII for bombing civilians... and they were the first to perfect it in practice.. hmmm.
Key phrase there at the end of the quote. But it seems very important to you to sit here and guess.
Likewise for you. Although, I have actually seen videos of massive parades in support of Hitler and the NAZI party with what must be millions of German civilians lined up on either side of the road with a prideful NAZI salute. You can't say that you've seen footage of millions of German citizens dying during the Dresden raids. I wonder how many of these poor civilians turned in Jews so they could live a richer lifestyle? I wonder how many knew about the concentration camps and other attrocities, but still feigned knowledge and continued to follow Hitler?
Atleast the Allies stopped that sick diddly and all of his cohorts, whether they admitted to it or not...
War is toejamty, war is hell... war is not civilized. War crimes happen all the time, but for the most part the only people punished for war crimes after WWII were SS units and high ranking officers for their contributions to the genocide campaign.
-SW
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Originally posted by AKSWulfe
I thought you took that back actually.
Nope...
Then we are through talking.
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I cant be bothered with the rest. If your musical background is any good, you should probably focus on that instead, since you seem incapable of coherent thought. (my guess is that you play a squeaking banjo)
And he keeps beating the music horse.
Arent you done proving you're a flaming retard? You cant be bothered with the original discussion, yet you bring up a completely unrelated and totally retarded argument.
I think you are running out of steam.
Please create another thread in wich we can discuss music, so I can also humilliate you there.
So in your opinion, people should walk around feeling ashamed for what now dead people did before they were born?
Ashamed as in not trying to justify what all those "dead people" did, as you are trying.
Hitler was responsible for Pearl Harbor. Himmler on the other hand was not responsible at all for the Holocaust...even though he gave the orders (since everything was Hitlers fault...remember what I wrote there about individual guilt?)
LOL <--- at your stupidity, once again.
Individual guilt? No, I dont blame Hitler alone fpr the war. I also blame the love muffines who followed him, including Himmler.
Now its my turn to ask questions:
Do you believe the Allies would have bombed Dresden anyways if Hitler had surrendered when he lost the war years before Berlin was taken?
Why do you think his own Generals were trying to kill him?
With him gone, the bloodshed would have ended. Its that simple.
Yet the nutcases from the SS protected his life like zealots. The same way you try to defend him and the NAZI cause here.
yeah...well thanks for trying anyway, back to the banjo now...run along.
You are welcome.
Never played a banjo, though I would gladly enjoy one than spend my time convincing myself that the NAZI's were righteous underdogs, who had feelings too :rolleyes:
Go back to daydreaming you were a Luftwaffe pilot serving your lovable Fuhrer.
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Hortlund,
I have just lost all respect for you during this thread.
I can't believe that you are a judge. I thought you guys were supposed to have common sense and a sense of right and wrong. Too bad for Sweden I guess.
eskimo
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Originally posted by AKSWulfe
Rolling stock:(dunno what this is) 619
Rail Road cars, I believe.
eskimo
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Originally posted by Oedipus
"Like Hartmann had a choice. "
He did. There was nothing stopping him from defecting. He could have landed his plane in Switzerland or flown to the Allied lines to surrender.
Oed
(perfect premise Hortlund, that COULD work :) I mean after all Das Boot was a very popular movie here when it came out why couldn't your script work too)
The nazis, like the Soviets had a bad habit of taking revenge on the families of defectors and actually Hartmann did defect, late in the war, to US/British troops so as to avoid capture by the Soviets, who had a price on his head. He was turned over to the Soviets at the end of the war and spent well over a decade in the gulag before returning to Germany (east) and the air force.
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Originally posted by eskimo2
Hortlund,
I have just lost all respect for you during this thread.
I can't believe that you are a judge. I thought you guys were supposed to have common sense and a sense of right and wrong. Too bad for Sweden I guess.
eskimo
Well, you are correct in your assumption about judges. But your post puzzles me. Apparently I have said something in this thread that made you lose all respect for me. What did I say?
What exactly is it that I have said in this thread that you find so provoking? Is it the "I think it is wrong to kill civilians"-part? Is it the "the world is a bit more complicated than all black or all white"-part? Is it the "the end does not justify the means" -part? What is it?
So ok, so far we have
"wrong to kill civilians"
"the world is not black or white"
"the end does not justify the means"
Yeah, woe is Sweden to have a judge who feel that...
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I think it was Patton who when speaking of war said something along the lines of..."God, but I do love it so."
Both sides of this arguement so far have some pretty screwy thinking.
Bombing of Civilian populations....
Civilian centres are bombed to demoralise a country. Sons and Daughters who grow up to be soldiers and factory workers. Who death crushes the heart and soul of the father serving at the front. Mothers and fathers who work in factorys building war materials for an opposing Army. Who prop or tolerate a Government in power by complacency or other means.
Hurt the civil population and you hurt the war effort. Such is the nature of war since its first conception. Attack the village, burn down the house.
The idea of you bombed first so its your fault it happened.....
A simple concept in theory. Lets examine another with the advent and introduction of Nuclear weapons. Would we be sitting at our desks decades into the future advocating a Japanese retallitory strike with a nuclear weapon on New York had they been capable at the time on the principle that the Allies struck first?
Sympathy for Bomber Crews.....
Bomber Crews were airmen at War, no less than the fighter pilot companions, the infantryman or the sailor. Their job was not to view the whites in the eyes of their enemies. It was to kill from afar as many as they could. Bomber Crews of all nations went into enemy fire and fought and died as any other man at War.
You cannot play Hero to one kind and refute the actions of another. If you sympathise with the man who kills his enemy in the trench, then you must also sympathise with the Submariner who hides beneath the waves or the Bomber Pilot in the clouds.
War is an abhorrent part of mans nature. There are'nt many men who have fought and gotten dirty in War who will tell you any different. Dismembered bodies and fallen friends. Loss of loved ones and getting first hand knowledge of how inventive man can become when it comes to destroying his own kind.
There are few rules in war and none im aware of that have ever been totally complied with by any nation.
Some of you apparently have no idea of what war on the scale of the Great and 2nd world war was like. It wasnt like the Flight Sim you fly and not like the movies. You cannot sit in a thread and say Hartmann was unworthy unless you faced the risks he and others like him did.
Even the Nazi's, as despicable as that group were, had brave men amongst its ranks. To think otherwise is simply patriotic biased judgement based on the heart rather than the head.
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Defend Hortland?
y r u gay animal?
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Originally posted by Nath[BDP]
Defend Hortland?
y r u gay animal?
Why? You are why ;)
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Originally posted by Hortlund
Then we are through talking.
I win!(http://216.40.249.192/mysmilies/otn/mfinger/thefinger.gif)
-SW
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Originally posted by AKSWulfe
I win!
-SW
7/17/2002 = VE-DAY
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Originally posted by AKSWulfe
I win!(http://216.40.249.192/mysmilies/otn/mfinger/thefinger.gif)
-SW
ROTFLMAO!
Hortlund is "Judge Mental".
eskimo