Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Widewing on July 15, 2002, 09:16:48 AM
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Last evening I was flying a fighter sortie, clearing out the fighters/bombers pounding vehicle bases near our HQ. I killed a Hellcat, but noticed that the VH was down and 4 enemy GVs were pressuring one Rook Panzer who was trying to defend. So, I rolled in with my Mustang, strafing the GVs, damaging some Flak Panzers, killing two Panzers and an M3. Finally, one guy gets lucky and hits me with a long-range shot and I am forced to bail.
I expected to take a hit in my K/D, but I didn't expect to get no credit for the 3 GVs. That annoyed me, because the current system does not count ground kills when in fighter mode. I have been told that this is set up this way to prevent padding of scores. "Really", I thought, "that doesn't make any sense." With the current 3 bomber formations, it is real easy to pad one's score by blasting bombers, with minimal risk. However, flying through hordes of GVs and Flak Panzers is anything but minimal risk. If I wanted to pad my score, I'd go cherry picking with a 109G-10. This fighter is virtually untouchable if flown correctly, as my stats will show. Load a drop tank, fly deep into the enemy's rear and bounce anything flying. Easy pickin's.
Gun kills of GVs should count. Moreover, if the system automatically designated any mission where under-wing ord is loaded as an attack sortie, it would prevent the dreaded score padding. Either that, or allow the pilot to switch modes in flight if he no longer has under-wing ordnance.
Why? I easily could have left the lone Rook to fend for himself, thereby protecting my K/D. Instead, I rolled in to help. However, in the future, I will not. It's all risk and zero reward. Especially, when calls for jabos went ignored by all others.
I place great value on surviving a sortie, because it adds a touch of realism to an otherwise unrealistic environment. To die is to fail in my book, regardless of how many enemies you killed. That is one feature I really like about the TOD events… You die and you're out. Now, we certainly cannot expect that in the MA, but it should not preclude trying to fly like it was the case.
Anyway, the more I think about it, the more it makes sense to allow a pilot to re-designate his sortie type in flight (or automatically if he kills a ground target). This will allow for proper credit of kills and losses, and not discourage attacking ground targets during a fighter sortie.
My regards,
Widewing
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Originally posted by Widewing
Why? I easily could have left the lone Rook to fend for himself, thereby protecting my K/D.
Widewing
"Unselfish acts of kindness in war will only get you killed" Patton
Ignore Score--have fun. :)
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Actually, by defending the base, you improved your chances of winning the reset and bagging those bonus perk points.
Attacking GVs is one tough business. I'm impressed that you got as many of them as you did. I usually get hammered after making the first guns pass.
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Originally posted by gofaster
Actually, by defending the base, you improved your chances of winning the reset and bagging those bonus perk points.
Attacking GVs is one tough business. I'm impressed that you got as many of them as you did. I usually get hammered after making the first guns pass.
Thanks, but it's easier than it appears.
There are ways to strafe *some* GVs that minimize risk. Both M3s and Panzers have limits on elevation of their MGs. Panzers also have limited traverse. So, attacking straight down precludes return fire on the run in. Also, if you can determine where the Panzer's main gun is aimed, you can strafe from a direction where the MG cannot traverse. However, my first method is to attack fom the rear, trying to kill its engine, thereby preventing movement. Once the engine is dead, the player will eventually have to ditch, and you will usually get the kill. Ostwinds and M16s are another problem altogether. These must be blind-sided, or you will probably get smacked. I know from my own GV experience that anything flying directly at me is dead once the range drops to 1.2 or less, if I see him coming. My loss yesterday resulted from an Osti doing the pray-n-spray at d3.0. Luck is always a factor too. One final note: Avoid low level strafing runs on any GV. Panzers, 75mm LVTs and M8s can and will kill you with their main guns if you fly a low-level, straight-in run. I've killed several fighters with the Panzer's 75mm under those circumstances. Same goes for shore batteries.
My regards,
Widewing
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Thanks for the tips! My problem is I go in at a 45 degree angle, which puts me in their prime firing zones. Anything steeper, and I nose into the ground on top of them. I'll keep your advice in mind next time I'm in the Main Arena.
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Incidently, I was watching Widewing, my son was all 3 of those kills...
The first, the Panzer, you took out his turret, in a low level pass that could of easily got you killed had it not been a 6 yr old gunner.
He exited to get an M3 (your awarded kill for the exit)
Then your next two passes again were too low on his M3, you took two passes, hitting him but not killing him, again, that could of easily got you killed had it not been a 6 yr old gunner. Finally your 3rd pass you came in at the recommended 50 deg angle and did it the right way, and killed him.
He then upped another M3, changed his mind, and upped an Osties (giving you your 3rd kill, for his exit)
The Ostie up in front of us after my sons re-up you ended up killing his track but he killed you. Ya should only attack an Ostie when you have a wingman, so one can draw his fire, while the other attacks...
Just some "constructive" critisizm, I was giving it to my son as well ;)
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eeeeewww... I will have to remember this thread next time I try to pump myself all up on the BB. I shall have to tone down my bragging lest this hapen to me.
lazs
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Originally posted by Ripsnort
Incidently, I was watching Widewing, my son was all 3 of those kills...
The first, the Panzer, you took out his turret, in a low level pass that could of easily got you killed had it not been a 6 yr old gunner.
He exited to get an M3 (your awarded kill for the exit)
Then your next two passes again were too low on his M3, you took two passes, hitting him but not killing him, again, that could of easily got you killed had it not been a 6 yr old gunner. Finally your 3rd pass you came in at the recommended 50 deg angle and did it the right way, and killed him.
He then upped another M3, changed his mind, and upped an Osties (giving you your 3rd kill, for his exit)
The Ostie up in front of us after my sons re-up you ended up killing his track but he killed you. Ya should only attack an Ostie when you have a wingman, so one can draw his fire, while the other attacks...
Just some "constructive" critisizm, I was giving it to my son as well ;)
Let me give my perspective of the engagement:
After chasing down and killing a Hellcat about two miles south of V72, I strafed a pair of Ostwinds, working with a Bf 110, who finally killed both (I think Mn7 was the pilot). I came north to see what damage had been done. I spot a Panzer close to the base, with another nearby. For reasons previously described, I elect to attack. I work around to the nearest Panzer's rear and run in to kill the engine. I received no return fire, as the Panzer was firing his main gun while I was coming in. I figured that I had killed the engine because of the smoke, so I turned my attention towards the other Panzer, running in from the rear again. It is extremely unlikely that the 8mm MG can do any serious structural damage to my aircraft. Sure, it could hole the radiator, but all that means is that I land near the VH. So, generally I ignore the 8mm MG. When I made my second run on the second Panzer, I heard the some minor pings on the run out. The run in was along the axis where he can't shoot. I see a kill awarded in the text buffer, and I see an M3 has upped and is running towards the remaining Panzer. I make a run from the rear, but bear off at about 1.2k, just in case he fires in return, but he doesn't (Pulling off at that range means killing it is unlikely in one pass, but it also means that the single .50 cal MG is highly unlikely to get a hit on me either). Again I come from the rear, but this time there IS some return fire, so I pull off and climb for a steep angle attack. That pass finally kills the M3. Meanwhile, the second Panzer was apparently abandoned as I get a kill message for it.
Moments later, a Panzer spawns and heads towards the VH, so I roll in again. Just then, something spawns behind him and I pulled off to have a look at it. After I extend and come back, I see it is an Osti, so I go after the Panzer about 1.5k ahead of it. I attack from side where the 8mm can't traverse. As I begin hitting it, I take a major hit to my right wing (opposite side to the Osti, which is strange, but commonplace in AH)) and have to bail.
I never fired on the Ostwind, never even closed to less than minimum Icon range, for the exact reason you mention. Since your son got the credit for killing my Mustang, he had to have hit me from a distance of at least 2.5k, maybe as far out as 3.0k. He must have been thrilled to nail that pesky Mustang! Tell him that I applaud his shooting!
I don't think I got credit for your son changing vehicles. Also, there was one other mitigating factor. That Rook GV was firing too.
This is rather typical, two different perspectives of the same event usually result in two differing reports. One of us should have been filming, I guess. Then again, what we see on our FE is not always what actually exists. Either way, had it not been for that "hail-Mary" ;) shot that clipped me, I would have avoided any damage, and probably would have gotten that last Panzer too.
Edit: I forgot to detail the encounter with the Ostwinds south of V72.
My regards,
Widewing
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No, my son didn't shoot ya down, another Ostie or tank ahead of him did. Yeah, forgot about that other tank, you disabled his his tracks, good shot! He was able to continue to shell upping GV's however, as he was positioned.
Inlines don't make a good platform for taking hits from GV"s, but hey, like you said, you were in the vicinity ;)
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Originally posted by Widewing
I expected to take a hit in my K/D, but I didn't expect to get no credit for the 3 GVs. That annoyed me, because the current system does not count ground kills when in fighter mode
Oh, and I 100% agree with the original intent of this post!!!
(Actually, I'd go as far as saying its a bug, post it in the Bug forum, maybe it will get its deserved attention)
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Yes it makes 100% Since.
A fighters roll is to kill airplanes, not to kill GV's.
Killing GV's sounds much more like an attack mission to me.
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do ya get point shwn ya shoot down them airplanes when yer in attack mhode?
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Originally posted by hitech
Yes it makes 100% Since.
A fighters roll is to kill airplanes, not to kill GV's.
Killing GV's sounds much more like an attack mission to me.
I believe you missed the point. What begins as a fighter sortie may change into an attack sortie due to changing circumstances. Likewise, an attack mission can evolve into a fighter mission. Does it not make sense for the pilot to be able to change that designation at least once to suit a changing requirement. I can't tell you how many times I've had missions re-designated during the actual sortie (Naval Air).
Typical situation: A Typhoon attacks enemy ground vehicles. That threat is eliminated. However, a large enemy air attack is detected inbound. Should not that pilot then have an option to re-designate his mission as "fighter" and get scored accordingly? Same argument for fighter sorties that change to attack. If we have scoring, why not make it accurately reflect what is occuring? I believe that the logic is inescapable. I'm not saying that it would be easy to implement (although I see no serious obstacle).
It was common for USAAF/USN/USMC fighters to attack ground targets, then assume a CAP over the target area. Two entirely different mission profiles during a single sortie.
My regards,
Widewing
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Originally posted by JoeDirt
do ya get point shwn ya shoot down them airplanes when yer in attack mhode?
Joe, you're the first person I've seen who types with a lisp...:D
My regards,
Widewing
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Originally posted by hitech
Yes it makes 100% Since.
A fighters roll is to kill airplanes, not to kill GV's.
Killing GV's sounds much more like an attack mission to me.
hitech,
Based on that same logic:
Why do we get credit for killing flying airplanes on "attack" sorties?
Why can a "fighter" be used for both roles?
Should base defense be done in "attack" mode for killing GVs, or should it be flown in "fighter" mode for killing airplanes?
If a "fighter" pilot takes off from a base to defend it against a mixed attack by both enemy aircraft AND ground vehicles, what kind of sortie is that?
A lot of fighter pilots that I have read about and a few that I have talked to, did both fighter AND attack missions. It was not all that rare for an attack mission to involve air to air combat.
Thanks,
eskimo
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I feel that the "attack" and "fighter" mode buttons should be done away with. All aircraft kills go to your fighter score, and all GV/Boat kills go to your attack score.
This way, all "attack" kills would be GVs and Boats. Isn't that what an "attack sortie" is?
What could be simpler?
eskimo
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Originally posted by eskimo2
I feel that the "attack" and "fighter" mode buttons should be done away with. All aircraft kills go to your fighter score, and all GV/Boat kills go to your attack score.
This way, all "attack" kills would be GVs and Boats. Isn't that what an "attack sortie" is?
What could be simpler?
eskimo
Those buttons show if yer playing for points or not.
Eliminate those and folks ont "just" try to attack or "just" fight
The missions would be more fun and folks wouldnt try to "game" the game as much. :cool:
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Eskimo makes a good point..
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Originally posted by X2Lee
Those buttons show if yer playing for points or not.
Eliminate those and folks ont "just" try to attack or "just" fight
The missions would be more fun and folks wouldnt try to "game" the game as much. :cool:
Basically true, and just as important;
A LOT of folks don't care enough about score to EVER click "attack".
Most of these folks have a fighter rank that suffers (hit% from strafing ground stuff, and K/D, K/S and K/T go down while they do attack duties.)
What's even worse is that they have no attack score. Even though they have killed GVs and blown up ground stuff, their attack scores are all 0s and they are tied for last place as attack pilots.
A score system should assess how ALL players perform.
Players who don't care about score at all, but basically perform the same as those who do, should be raked the same.
eskimo
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Originally posted by Widewing
Joe, you're the first person I've seen who types with a lisp...:D
My regards,
Widewing
its the braces :D
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Are you still reading this hitech?
eskimo
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Scores are meaningless to the successful prosecution of this game with one exception. Those that feel the need to have a perk vehicle need perk points. Feel free to chase your tail about scores all you need. :rolleyes:
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folks asked for a scoring system like this.
Gv kills while flying as "fighter" just dont count for your fighter score they are recorded.
Check under "Kill stats"
I have 8 more kills here then I do under "Pilot score".
I also have 18 less deaths under "kill stats" because in this "category" it doesnt count the times you die without someone "killing" you.
If you wanna kill gvs and structures for "score" rtb and reup under attack.
For axis, im particular we have specific "attack planes" we fly. Everyone knows 50 cals shred gvs. GVs are far easier to kill then most aircraft. So a 50 cal pilot go go around killing m3 and m16s and get a high rank even though he flies very little a2a.
Seperate categories are good.
Much like the killshooter whines its mostly 50 cal pilots who want this changed.
Score and rank mean nothing. Since I have been flying lw in a lw squad(about 2 years), the squad I have been in has been ranked in the top 10 all but maybe 6 times. Mostly in the top 5 and about 60% of the time in the top 2. Numerous occasions we ended up number 1.
We dont fly for rank or Score.
The only thing the score pages are good for is tracking how your doing over a tour. Not as an indication of pilot skill. Imho it would be pretty dweeby to allow gvs kills to be scored in the fighter category. They are easily killed, especially by 50 cal planes.
On top of all this your gv kills while in the "fighter" category are "counted" they just arent used to determin fighter rank.
HT score system makes perfect sense and has every detail accounted for.
EDIT:
perk points do not have anything to do with pilot rank or score they are a product of eny values assigned to each plane by htc.
Maybe you oughta look that up if its confusing you.
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Originally posted by Wotan
For axis, im particular we have specific "attack planes" we fly. Everyone knows 50 cals shred gvs. GVs are far easier to kill then most aircraft. So a 50 cal pilot go go around killing m3 and m16s and get a high rank even though he flies very little a2a.
No one is confused...
If ground target kills by fighters were automatically scored as attack kills, no one could pad their fighter score, could they?
Problem solved, issue resolved.
Re-upping is not an option when you are 25 miles from nearest airfield and a vehicle base is under heavy attack. You must use what is at hand. However, as I suggest above, if ALL ground vehicles kills by fighters are scored as attack kills (score losses that way too), then your concerns are adequately addressed, correct?
My regards,
Widewing
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Where fighter seems to imply fighting anything, maybe the buttons need to be renamed from 'fighter' to 'furball' and from 'attack' to 'everything else' or 'target of opportunity'.
As we've all seen scores are pretty useless anyway. Show me a top ranked fighter pilot that only flys N1ks, La-7s and Spit IXs and I'll be much more impressed by the pilot that waxes his 6 in a Spit I, La-5 or any of the other early war planes. Rank means nothing unless you're taking control of the cv or ranked less than me. :rolleyes:
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Originally posted by Maverick
Scores are meaningless to the successful prosecution of this game with one exception. Those that feel the need to have a perk vehicle need perk points. Feel free to chase your tail about scores all you need. :rolleyes:
I'd knew if I dug down deep enough in this pile of crap, I'd find a diamond. Scores and rank in AH only mean, 1)You're a dweeb with no life 2)You smell bad and need a shower.
(http://www.hispanicvista.com/assets/479th_shield.jpg)
Ack-Ack
479th FG - Riddle's Raiders
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Apparently some players are very, very concerned with their score.
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I agree with Eskimo
For many tours, I never selected Attack, even though I would very often end up attacking something on the ground, be it GV or some other structure.
My scores have been totally hosed since I bought a Cougar, but eventually I will get good with it and want to work on my socres again.
To me, just playing a game is not why I play. I play for the win and to be the best. Call it competitive spirit. Personally, I do not understand why someone would play just to pass the time and not care if they are successful at what they are doing or if they are improving their skills.
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Originally posted by Midnight
To me, just playing a game is not why I play. I play for the win and to be the best. Call it competitive spirit. Personally, I do not understand why someone would play just to pass the time and not care if they are successful at what they are doing or if they are improving their skills.
I like this guy!
By the way, it's my experience that those who pooh-pooh scores the most, well, they have miserable scores in general... Connection? Perhaps.
Sorry, I can't abide someone with a 0.2/1 K/D or ranked 2337 telling me scores are unimportant.... Clearly they have reason to minimize its value. A lot of players play with the goal of being the best they can be, if not the best there is. That is one way they enjoy themselves. Quit pissin' on their parade just because you have different goals or simply stink at this game.
My regards,
Widewing
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However, as I suggest above, if ALL ground vehicles kills by fighters are scored as attack kills (score losses that way too),
By clicking the attack button is what triggers what gets scored where. I dont agree that it should be changed. As I have said most who see this "issue" as a problem fly 50 cal armed planes. I fly lw planes if I see a gv attack whether I am 50 miles a way or 2 miles 90% of the time I will have to rtb to get a jabo loadout to kill them.
Lotsa of other folks do the same. Why should the game cater to the (in most cases) less then "real" ability of 50 cal planes (and to some degree hispano planes)y to easily kill gvs.
You want the game made easier to protect your scores when in most other planes that dont carry 50s or hizzookas dont get the same benefit.
As to my comment in my previous reply, it was directed toward the guy who said score had something to do with perk planes. Not at your original point. Which has, much like killshooter, been brought up many times.
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Originally posted by Wotan
By clicking the attack button is what triggers what gets scored where. I dont agree that it should be changed. As I have said most who see this "issue" as a problem fly 50 cal armed planes. I fly lw planes if I see a gv attack whether I am 50 miles a way or 2 miles 90% of the time I will have to rtb to get a jabo loadout to kill them.
Lotsa of other folks do the same. Why should the game cater to the (in most cases) less then "real" ability of 50 cal planes (and to some degree hispano planes)y to easily kill gvs.
You want the game made easier to protect your scores when in most other planes that dont carry 50s or hizzookas dont get the same benefit.
As to my comment in my previous reply, it was directed toward the guy who said score had something to do with perk planes. Not at your original point. Which has, much like killshooter, been brought up many times.
I fly a little bit of everything, and really don't think deleting the attack and fighter buttons caters to any plane type choice.
I would, however, like the ranking system to cater less to players who make an effort to play for rank. The system would have greater meaning, if it did a more accurate job of ranking all players, not just those who know how it works and intentionally adapt their play to fit what it seeks.
eskimo
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Originally posted by akak
I'd knew if I dug down deep enough in this pile of crap, I'd find a diamond. Scores and rank in AH only mean, 1)You're a dweeb with no life 2)You smell bad and need a shower.
(http://www.hispanicvista.com/assets/479th_shield.jpg)
Ack-Ack
479th FG - Riddle's Raiders
The score/rank system is something that each player can take or leave. If you don't want to play that game, fine. There are plenty of things within AH to enjoy, or pass up. I.E. furball, play for capture, drive GVs, gang-bang, vulch, fly LA-7s, etc. Insulting players who choose to play differently than you makes you sound like an arrogant ass.
So many players say and think that rank means nothing. They often state this because they see a player (who they feel is great) who is outranked by a player who they feel is nowhere near as great. Therefor the rank system is meaningless.
But to say that rank means nothing is incorrect. Clearly, the #1 player is not necessarily the "best" player in the game (although he MAY be). But, he did achieve a goal. It may have been difficult for him, or it may have been a cinch. Nevertheless, many players WERE playing for rank, and only one was ranked #1. Some of the other players who were also playing for rank may have been more skilled, but they didn't play the RANK GAME as well for that tour.
So many have stated that anyone can be ranked #1, the exception always seems to be themselves!
There are also many players who say that rank means nothing and all that matters is K/D. Well, it is also silly to assume that a player with a K/D of 3 (call him Bob) must be better than a player with a K/D of 2 (Tom). You may not know that Bob flies the El-Gay Seven and Tom flies the Hurri I. Based on plane choice times K/D, Tom appears better.
You also know nothing about how they fly. Bob may only tag along on large attack missions and get all of his kills cherry picking and vulching, avoiding ack and high cons. If Tom, on the other hand, gets all of his kill while upping from vulched fields, out numbered 10 to 1... well I'd be impressed by a K/D of 2!
If you play for K/D, fine. But just like rank, don't make it out to be than it is.
The only mistake is to think that your rank (or K/D) means you are better, or more skilled, than those with lower rank (or K/D).
eskimo
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Originally posted by eskimo2
If you play for K/D, fine. But just like rank, don't make it out to be than it is.
The only mistake is to think that your rank (or K/D) means you are better, or more skilled, than those with lower rank (or K/D).
eskimo
Since I play for fun and don't bother with what my score, rank or K/x ratio is, I never have that problem. And I'll say it again, scores/rank/kill ratio are meaningless, maybe that just comes from 9+ years of playing online flight sims.
(http://www.hispanicvista.com/assets/479th_shield.jpg)
Ack-Ack
479th FG - Riddle's Raiders
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Originally posted by akak
Since I play for fun and don't bother with what my score, rank or K/x ratio is, I never have that problem. And I'll say it again, scores/rank/kill ratio are meaningless, maybe that just comes from 9+ years of playing online flight sims.
(http://www.hispanicvista.com/assets/479th_shield.jpg)
Ack-Ack
479th FG - Riddle's Raiders
And most of the time, I don't care about score either. But I used to, and I had a lot of fun with it. It wasn't a "problem", it was just a competitive way to have fun.
I do think that YOU have a problem, however. You feel a need to insult players who play differently, or for a different reason. Seek help on this. It really shouldn't bother you how others happen to enjoy their time.
eskimo
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I would, however, like the ranking system to cater less to players who make an effort to play for rank.
What do you think this threads about? A guy who flies for scores dislikes the fact that killing a gv doesnt "score" for him.
Thats what its about.
If you care nothing for score or rank then it shouldn't matter. The kill gets recorded. You are "credited" with the kill. You just dont "score points" if you are in the wrong category.
Theres no wrong with flying for rank or score. It can be fun too. But dont say the current score system benefits anyone more then the other.
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Originally posted by eskimo2
I do think that YOU have a problem, however. You feel a need to insult players who play differently, or for a different reason. Seek help on this. It really shouldn't bother you how others happen to enjoy their time.
eskimo
I don't think I insulted anyone that plays for points or high rank, I only mock those that try to flaunt their high score/rank. I don't really give a rat's how anyone plays, it's their $15 bucks. Just don't come to me and say your a toejam hot pilot because you're ranked #1 or have a godzillion points.
(http://www.hispanicvista.com/assets/479th_shield.jpg)
Ack-Ack
479th FG - Riddle's Raiders
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Originally posted by akak
I don't think I insulted anyone that plays for points or high rank, I only mock those that try to flaunt their high score/rank. I don't really give a rat's how anyone plays, it's their $15 bucks. Just don't come to me and say your a toejam hot pilot because you're ranked #1 or have a godzillion points.
I'm assuming that you are referring to someone other than Eskimo, 'cause I haven't heard anything in this thread to indicate that he, or anyone else has said that they are a sierra hotel pilot.
And no, I didn't think that you meant to insult anyone.
My regards,
Widewing
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Originally posted by akak
I'd knew if I dug down deep enough in this pile of crap, I'd find a diamond. Scores and rank in AH only mean, 1)You're a dweeb with no life 2)You smell bad and need a shower.
It is normal for each person to put himself in the very center of Universe, and use himself as a measure for all things around. Though ability to respect the fact, that other people can be different, like different things, and have a different values, usually is a clear sign of a mature person.
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dont forget the insta-pilot wound panzer pintle gun Widewing. I'd rather HO a P-47 than strafe a pzr who i know has his single 7.9mm manned. P-47 is safer.
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Originally posted by Widewing
I'm assuming that you are referring to someone other than Eskimo, 'cause I haven't heard anything in this thread to indicate that he, or anyone else has said that they are a sierra hotel pilot.
And no, I didn't think that you meant to insult anyone.
My regards,
Widewing
Comment directed to those that flaunt their rank as some proof of skill, or self-worth.
Ack-Ack