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General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Urchin on July 15, 2002, 05:34:30 PM

Title: My pet peeve: Ground Vehicles.
Post by: Urchin on July 15, 2002, 05:34:30 PM
I very rarely drive around in Ground Vehicles, but on the rare occasion that I do I get so pissed off I don't feel like playing Aces High anymore.  

The 'Air" game is relatively balanced.  Most planes are useful, if not entirely deadly, with a skilled pilot in the cockpit.  

The "Ground" game is totally out of whack.  The Ostwind rules all.  If the Ostwind could carry troops, you would literally see all the other GVs disapear entirely.  As it is, any base attack is made up of at least 90% Ostwinds, with some other GVs thrown in for flavor.  It doesn't matter if you don't know your bellybutton from a hole in the ground, you can kill stuff in a Flakpansie.  Can't aim to save your life?  Thats no problem at all!  One hit will kill an M16, M8, or M3, and a few will disable a tank.  You also get the ADDED bonus of being able to kill any single-engine plane with, that's right, one hit!

Need to destroy a town?  Take an Ostwind!  It can destroy the town faster than any other GV, plus defend itself against airborne defenders and other ground vehicles.

Pesky Ostwind bothering a base of yours?  Up an... Ostwind?  Thats RIGHT!  You can kill another Ostwind faster than a tank can!

Need to drop the ack at a base?  Up an Ostwind!  You can get close enough to spray at the base and knock the AA down with random hits, and still stay out of their range!  Plus you can kill anyone stupid enough to try to stop you with.. that's right!  ONE HIT!

At the time of this writing:

Flakpansies have a positive K/D against every unit in the game, except for Tempests (and that is one brave Tempest driver), and Panzers.  (in Tour 30 so far)

Last tour (before the 'tanker friendly' AK desert map), the Ostwind had 31,245 kills.  All other GVs had a total of 23,285 kills.  The second closest was the Panzer, with 12,421 kills.  Yes.. the Flakpansie was used almost THREE TIMES as much as the next closest ground vehicle... and it had nearly 60% of the total kills made by ground vehicles.  The Flakpansie had, in fact, the most kills by ANY unit last tour (air OR ground).

Perhaps the new map will see usage of other ground vehicles rise, but I'm fairly sure at least one will never see any significant use.  That would be the M8.  This is the closest thing to useless that I've ever seen in AH.  I like to use 'under-utilized' equipment... but not utterly useless equipment.  The M8 has so many problems that I'm not even sure I can fit them in the maximum limit for a post on the BBS.

The M8, for an 'armored fighting vehicle' is extremely frail.  More frail, in fact, than our "unarmored" M3s and M16s are.  Any bullet hitting the M8 will knock out the pintle gun.  Any bullet larger than a .303 will take out the turret with a few hits, leaving the M8 entirely unarmed (not that the gun is worth much anyway).  The Ostwind can kill the M8 with a single hit, at ranges of 1,500 yards and up.  While I am not entirely sure, I believe the 75mm HE round a panzer fires will destroy the M8 in one hit if it lands somewhere NEAR the M8.  The M3 has a much better than even shot at killing the M8 in a 'head to head" confrontation.  

Before you start your sortie, you have a choice of exactly how useless to be.  It is an interesting twist on your usual hangar selection screen.  Choose the HE rounds, and you have ZERO chance to hurt a Flakpansie or Panzer.   ZERO.  None.  You can, however, kill an M16 or M3 in 5 or 6 hits on average.  

But, you say, I would like to have a shot at hurting the most common GV.  Well, I have a solution for you.  You can load AP rounds instead!  You, in theory, can kill a Panzer or Flakpansie with these rounds.  This is how it works.  You must drive beside or behind the enemy vehicle, to a range of about 100 yards.  Fire 5 or 6 rounds, and if you are lucky enough that they don't notice you and turn their 7.92mm pintle gun on you, you have about a 30% chance to get a kill.  More commonly, you will disable the turret and/or engine (and you better hope it is the turret first), and waste the rest of your ammo until a Spitfire comes along and puts a couple Hizooka rounds into the tank (or Flakpansie) to finish it.  Another assist!  Way to go!  You are performing quite well in the M8, young Paduwan.    Of course... if a M3 or M16 wanders by, you better hope you can disable it with your pintle gun before they kill you with theirs, since 37mm AP rounds have ZERO effect on M16s and M3s.  That is absolutely right, I said no effect.  I've fired 10+ rounds into a disabled M3 or M16 before from point blank range and did no damage.

The M8 is utterly and completely useless.  I would really like for HTC to take a look at the M8 and decide why they made it suck as bad as it does and still put it in the game.  That is, if it was intentional.  If it was not intentional, I've got a few bugs to list out real fast.  

-  The M8's 37mm is about .05% as effective as the 37mm automatic gun mounted on the Flakpansie.  Even with AP rounds loaded.  I think there must be a bug in the AP rounds for the M8's gun, since the HE rounds for the Flakpansie can kill or disable an AFV with absolutely no problem at all (from any angle)

-  There is a bug in the durability of the M8.  The "armored" M8 is about one half to one third as durable as the unarmored (I presume) M3 and M16.  I don't care how thin the armor is... it should be more effective than not having any armor at all.

-  The M8 also can't go up hardly any slope... this is a problem with all GVs, but particularly so with the M8 since a thrown rock or quick glance can kill or disable it.  

Please take a look at the M8, and fix these problems.  They've existed since the vehicle was introduced, but it has been a while since I complained about it, so I figure maybe you forgot to fix it.
Title: My pet peeve: Ground Vehicles.
Post by: ZeroPing on July 15, 2002, 05:39:30 PM
ive killed a flak at 3.6k out (thats under the 32 mark in the panzer) with 2 shots, one for range, second to kill him.
No he wasnt aready smoking, no he wasnt hurt before I fired, mostly becuase he spawned 2 seconds before i shot my second round... Lucky shot? probley... but ya GVS are pure porkage
Title: My pet peeve: Ground Vehicles.
Post by: Weave on July 15, 2002, 05:43:49 PM
I'll give him a 7.5:D
Title: My pet peeve: Ground Vehicles.
Post by: HFMudd on July 15, 2002, 05:48:10 PM
I find it hard to rate Urchin on the whine chart since I don't associate Urchin with whining.  But if I did I would have to take point away for good grammer and puncuation.  Some of this is made up for by the use of the term "Flakpansie" however.

I'm sorry, but again, considering whom the author is, I just can't award any higher than a 6.0
Title: My pet peeve: Ground Vehicles.
Post by: MrLars on July 15, 2002, 06:00:46 PM
Quote
Originally posted by ZeroPing
ive killed a flak at 3.6k out (thats under the 32 mark in the panzer) with 2 shots, one for range, second to kill him.
No he wasnt aready smoking, no he wasnt hurt before I fired, mostly becuase he spawned 2 seconds before i shot my second round... Lucky shot? probley... but ya GVS are pure porkage


At that distance the trajectory would put the AP round at better angle than a much shorter distance.

Try this, kill a tank with a .50 cal equiped plane.
Attack from the front, sides or rear and the only effect you will have is maybe damaging his tracks. Attack from above at a 45% angle or greater and hit the turret, in 2-3 passes you'll kill him.

There is no doubt that GV's need some attention but until action is taken I would suggest useing the terrain and smoke to gain angles that put you outside of your targets 10oc - 2oc arch, you'll see more 1-2 hit kills that way against Panzers and Ostys. M3's and M16's are easy kills if you see them first. One AP hit on the front wheels of a moving M3 or M16 will make it crash or one AP hit dead on their 12 will kill any M8 or halftrack as long as you hit it where the engine is or, in the case of the M8, the driver.

These are my observations and these actions do not have 100% reliability but I've found them to be true more often than not.
Title: My pet peeve: Ground Vehicles.
Post by: Innominate on July 15, 2002, 06:07:35 PM
The M8 is an armored car, not a tank or a tank destroyer.  If you want to kill a panzer with it you need to circle behind it trying to use your speed to evade it's fire.  The ostwind might make a good use of everyones vehicle perk points.....  Everything it does, another GV is capable of doing effectivly.
Title: My pet peeve: Ground Vehicles.
Post by: Voss on July 15, 2002, 06:17:28 PM
Actually, Urchin, I'm undefeated against Osties. From the Cruiser, anyway. :D
Title: My pet peeve: Ground Vehicles.
Post by: Urchin on July 15, 2002, 06:35:04 PM
MrLars, couple things.  

1.  Smoke is now bugged.  The only person that SEES smoke is the person that fired it.  At least, that is how I presume it works, since I couldnt see any smoke people said they were firing (friendly anyway).

2.  I've fired 37mm AP rounds from the M8 at M3s and M16s and hit them EVERYWHERE.  Cabin, wheels, gun, whatever.  No damage.  None.  37mm HE round WILL kill an M3 or M16... it just takes more than one hit.  It will also friggin ricochet off an M3.  

The M8 is, hands-down, either the worst-modelled or most useless but properly modelled (in that case begging the question- WHY the hell is it in the game to begin with?) unit in the game.

The Ostwind, in my opinion, should be perked, and fairly heavily.  It does practically everything better than any other GV.  In the two nights I spent in GV battles... it was the vehicle of choice for the other side.  Yes, they outnumbered the tanks on the other side.. even though there were NO FRIENDLY AIRPLANES.  Furthermore... they are more than capable of killing any GV in the game at ranges of up to 2,000 yards (and it can probably kill an M8 at 5,000 or so if the round is tracked that far).
Title: My pet peeve: Ground Vehicles.
Post by: Urchin on July 15, 2002, 06:37:44 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Innominate
The M8 is an armored car, not a tank or a tank destroyer.  If you want to kill a panzer with it you need to circle behind it trying to use your speed to evade it's fire.  The ostwind might make a good use of everyones vehicle perk points.....  Everything it does, another GV is capable of doing effectivly.


Two things here to.  The M8 is an ARMORED CAR, not a tank or a tank destroyer.  Ok, I understand that.  The key phrase for me is ARMORED.  That should mean it should be somewhat more durable than the UNARMORED M3 and M16- but it isn't.

Also... you can't use your speed to evade an Ostwinds fire. It sprays in your general direction and you die.

I think you meant to say this for your last sentence- "The Ostwind would make a good use of everyones vehicle perk points... everything another GV is capable of doing the Ostwind does more effectively".  Of course, maybe you didn't mean that, but I do.
Title: My pet peeve: Ground Vehicles.
Post by: Sandman on July 15, 2002, 06:42:04 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Urchin
The Ostwind, in my opinion, should be perked, and fairly heavily.  It does practically everything better than any other GV.  In the two nights I spent in GV battles... it was the vehicle of choice for the other side.  Yes, they outnumbered the tanks on the other side.. even though there were NO FRIENDLY AIRPLANES.  Furthermore... they are more than capable of killing any GV in the game at ranges of up to 2,000 yards (and it can probably kill an M8 at 5,000 or so if the round is tracked that far).


Perk the Osty or better yet, fix the Panzer.
Title: My pet peeve: Ground Vehicles.
Post by: MrLars on July 15, 2002, 06:51:24 PM
I wasn't aware there was a problem with the smoke. I just took it for granted that when I lay smoke and maneuver from the spot I was at the smoke was the reason I didn't get anymore hits.

I'm not sure there IS a smoke bug is what I'm getting at...YMMV obviously.

I used to drive GV's a lot and still do somewhat but I'm not seeing the same things you are on a regular basis it seems. The last time I had trouble killing a halftrack was over a month ago before I read a post by HT regarding angles and hit sprites with GV's. That post changed my GV tactics and now I see little of the problems you see.

On a side note...

I've hit Osty's dead on with a 1000 pound bomb with no effect...anyone that has ever been around military ordinance will know that this just can't happen...but with all the anomilies that the net throws into the equation I'm not surprised in the least.
Title: My pet peeve: Ground Vehicles.
Post by: MrLars on July 15, 2002, 06:54:06 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Sandman_SBM


Perk the Osty or better yet, fix the Panzer.


I say perk the Osty for remote spawning only....base defence in Ostys should be free IMO.
Title: My pet peeve: Ground Vehicles.
Post by: minus on July 15, 2002, 07:04:56 PM
that why we need ,, PUMA<< much much beter like  pesky  M 8 and some  other gvs , i think HTC can produce a mega pack of GVS and surely  the FM modeling wqil cose less discusion about owermodeling they jsut need ride of plane vs gv and vice versa icons so we can use some  perk gvs and , sure some modification on dmg modeling, thing  let ride of 50 calibers vs tanks, and beter givethem some molotov coctails :D
Title: My pet peeve: Ground Vehicles.
Post by: eskimo2 on July 15, 2002, 08:00:41 PM
I think Urchin is both whining, and at the same time telling it like it is.  Osties are way too effective and need to be perked.  It's ammo load especially makes it unfairly effective.

I think head on, Osties and Panzers can both be pretty tough.  Side, top and rear hits clobber them, however.  It is pretty anoying how easily an Osty can take out a Panzers turret at any angle.  

There are some bugs still out there.  
I remember nailing an M-3 3 times at a GV base once.  He kept coming right by me, then opened up with his 50, killing my turret instantly, then killed my panzer... with his dang 50!  I even got a direct frontal hit on an M-3 once with a shore battery at 400 yards, he kept on going.

Each 75mm Panzer round seems no more powerful than each Oswind round.  The only thing that you gain with the Panzer is long range accuracy.  With the Panzer, you have got to kill them way out there, before they get into their range.

eskimo
Title: Re: My pet peeve: Ground Vehicles.
Post by: X2Lee on July 15, 2002, 09:29:20 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Urchin


I give him a 9.1 because of these paragraphs

 
At the time of this writing:Flakpansies have a positive K/D against every unit in the game, except for Tempests (and that is one brave Tempest driver), and Panzers.  (in Tour 30 so far)

Last tour (before the 'tanker friendly' AK desert map), the Ostwind had 31,245 kills.  All other GVs had a total of 23,285 kills.  The second closest was the Panzer, with 12,421 kills.  Yes.. the Flakpansie was used almost THREE TIMES as much as the next closest ground vehicle... and it had nearly 60% of the total kills made by ground vehicles.  The Flakpansie had, in fact, the most kills by ANY unit last tour (air OR ground).


Thats the exact criteria I have heard was the basis for perking since I been playing AH....
But I cant say perk the osty cause thats maybe a borderline whine and I cant take the chance on that happnin   :cool:
Title: My pet peeve: Ground Vehicles.
Post by: Taiaha on July 15, 2002, 09:33:52 PM
I think this goes beyond the category of whining, into that great beyond of soul-riven anguish that Rude defined as "Wailing."

And at the same time, he's absolutely right.  Haven't played GVs at all this tour, except for a couple of AA M16s, don't intend to.  I've heard all the stories about how if you get this angle, or hit em in this spot, blah blah blah.  But I've seen and experienced too much to convince me that damage modelling in the GV world is anything but a crap shoot at the moment (and when you couple that with my crappy shooting, things aint looking too good!).

Although I'm pretty much a plane junky, I know a lot of people like the GVs and I think there's a serious case for tarting up this area of AH something considerable in the next release--new GVs and some realistic workings for the old ones.
Title: My pet peeve: Ground Vehicles.
Post by: Tumor on July 15, 2002, 09:45:21 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Urchin
MrLars, couple things.  

1.  Smoke is now bugged.  The only person that SEES smoke is the person that fired it.  At least, that is how I presume it works, since I couldnt see any smoke people said they were firing (friendly anyway).



I've been wondering about that.  Is that true?  If so it really REALLY needs to be fixed.

Tumor
Title: My pet peeve: Ground Vehicles.
Post by: Karnak on July 15, 2002, 09:54:42 PM
Attacking Ostwinds is the single biggest gamble that I do in this game.  I know that all he has to do is hit me once, and I have to get in range of his gun to fire my rockets, or drop my bombs with any accuracy or, heaven forbid, make a guns run on it:eek:.

If any current vehicle warants perking, its the Ostwind.  Like the F4U-1C before it, it does everything well.  It is more destructive to fields than a PnZ IV H and better against aircraft than an M-16 MGC.  It gets more kills than all other vehicles combined.

I'd like to see these vehicles, maybe they'd even it out:

M4A3
Panther V G
Priest
Puma
T-34/85

And a new damage model.
Title: My pet peeve: Ground Vehicles.
Post by: SKurj on July 15, 2002, 11:26:26 PM
Ok...

I've got a couple hundred kills in GV's this tour...


My findings from the spawn camp at 102...

M8 can kill a pz turret from close range in one shot
M8 can kill osty turret one shot BUT seems the sweet spot is smaller than pz turret

pz can kill M8 turret in one shot or the whole thing if u aim lo side.  Higher shots may not kill m8 ...

Ostwind is the only vehicle needed in AH... an adjustment, NOT perking is required IMO for gameplay's sake.  They are too offensively capable...

BTW an m3 can take out osty, and PZ turrets with a few hits but only in the right place.  The pz seems to have a weak spot from the front to the right of the gun between the outer armor ring and the main turret armor.


Would the community scream if the osty was loaded with 300 rounds instead of 1000? no.. Would the community scream if the osty's armor weakened... no

SKurj
Title: My pet peeve: Ground Vehicles.
Post by: Tumor on July 16, 2002, 12:25:09 AM
Anyone (else) having problems killing aircraft with an Osti since 1.10?  I don't know what, why or how, but I can't seem to hit an aircraft with an Osti at all lately.  Been wondering if HTC made some kind of change.  I used to be able to hit aircraft at relatively long range with ease.  Now it seem's futile to even try.  

The other day CSMC and I were both within 500ft of eachother in Osti's and someone (for some reason I think it was Grimm) made no less than 6 passes at us, both of us blasting away and ..... nothing.  I mean that Mossie was getting as close as 500ft.   Same thing happened to me (and at least 1 other Osti) with a Hellcat and C-47 flying around above a V field they were trying to capture, except the C-47 never got any closer then 1.3d.  

Anyone else?
Title: My pet peeve: Ground Vehicles.
Post by: CavemanJ on July 16, 2002, 12:42:36 AM
What is the ostwind's percentage of kills out of all kills?

The F4U-1C was perked cause it was running at about, what, 25% of all kills in the arena?  I seem to recall a number mid-20,000's for the C hog.  I'll try to dig up those old threads later.

But it deffinately says something when the ostwind is responsible for near 60% of all vehicle kills.

And the 37mm HE shells from the ostwind do have an awfully effective hit on the panzer.  Try popping a panzer with the 75mm HE shells from another panzer.  If you're lucky you'll throw a track.  If you're even luckier you'll knock out his engine.

If ya can kill his turret ya better head for vegas/reno/atlantic city while lady luck is riding yer jock.
Title: My pet peeve: Ground Vehicles.
Post by: Samm on July 16, 2002, 01:18:51 AM
The reason for ground vehilces in AH is to give attack planes moving targets. Like it or not AH is all about the airplane, everything else is there to compliment them .
Title: My pet peeve: Ground Vehicles.
Post by: Urchin on July 16, 2002, 01:37:57 AM
But is it to much to ask for the ground vehicles to be useful and fun in their own right?  Not to mention modelled with the same care and accuracy that goes into the planes?  

This is not an intentional 'dig' at HT and company, but GVs as a whole seem incredibly screwed up, for lack of a better term.  

For instance, we know (from extensive debate started by a 'whine' of mine) that a .50 caliber machinegun bullet CAN penetrate the armor of a Panzer IV.  It can go through the top decking, and I believe the rear armor if the gun is close enough (I can't remember to be honest, it has been a while).  

What effect would a 37mm AP shell have going through a M3?  Well, it certainly seems that it would depend on where you hit it at- but it doesn't seem to.  The M8's 37mm AP round does little or no damage to the M3 or M16, no matter where you hit it.

Similarly, we KNOW how the different rounds are modelled for the planes.  For cannons, a 'composite' round is modelled based on what the typical belt was.  Is it the same way for the Ostwind?  would a 37mm AP round kill a plane in one hit no matter where you hit it?  Or would it just make a 37mm hole and be on its merry way?  One would certainly expect that a mobile AA gun would use High Explosive rounds, as these would seem to be far more damaging to rather fragile airplanes.  But the Ostwind is, if not the most effective unit for killing other AFVs, at least a very close second.  So this would lead one to believe that the Ostwind has AP rounds.  Or does the Ostwind have HEAP rounds (which as far as I know were not even in existance in WW2, but I could be wrong)?

Also, some things just don't seem logical.  How can a .50 caliber machinegun have more stopping power than a 37mm cannon?  It doesn't you say?  Take an M3 and go head to head with an M8, you will change your mind quickly.

I understand that the GVs are in Aces High primarily for 'flavor' as it were.  I don't think that means that they should be neglected like they have been.
Title: My pet peeve: Ground Vehicles.
Post by: Tumor on July 16, 2002, 01:56:01 AM
Quote
Originally posted by CavemanJ
What is the ostwind's percentage of kills out of all kills?

If ya can kill his turret ya better head for vegas/reno/atlantic city while lady luck is riding yer jock.


I get my Turret killed by single shots from Panzers on a regular basis.  I only manage to do that to other folks occasionally.... unless:

I'm beginning to think there's a bug or two... or FE problem or something going on that I just don't know about.

I've been killed outright by Panzers ALLOT by single pings... or at least what I think is single pings.  Further... I've been hit (Turret killed or killed outright) by single shots at EXTREMELY long range far more than I would expect possible.  I know there are good shots out there... but I have a very hard time with getting killed by a single "first shot" at ranges of 28k and above (and thats a stretch).  

I've noticed that it "seems" to me that when folks have tracers turned off, you don't get explosion sounds OR craters from missed shots 100% of the time...   Further.... I "think" perhaps sometimes for whatever reason, I do not hear "hits" to my machine.  Just speculation, but it just seems way too improbable for someone to make first shot hits at really long range, especially when you get killed on that first shot.

Last... I still think the whole GV damage/lethality thing needs a look.  Nothing seem's consistant.  I've taken up to 5 hits before getting killed, and I've had my turret knocked out with one shot (most of this happens at ranges beyond 24... I don't like to get in close).  And the same happens to the other guy when I'm the one landing hits (except for the single shot kills, may have actually happened once or twice) with AP, more often it takes me between 3 and 6 hits to knock out a Panzer or Osti.  However... I've killed a Panzer with 2 HE rounds, and almost ALWAYS knock out a engine or track with a single HE round thats a NEAR MISS.  The worst thing I've seen was beneficial to me but probably a real issue with the other guy... I knocked out a Panzer with my puny little M3 .50<<<< that just aint right.  I was very lucky as we both crested a ridge at exactly the same time facing each other, probably 50ft apart lol.  Neither of us knew the other guy was coming, but with my much wider field of view I saw him immediately and I guess I knocked out his turret because he never fired a shot... took him about 15 seconds to find me but I just kept rattling away until BOOM.
Title: My pet peeve: Ground Vehicles.
Post by: devious on July 16, 2002, 02:39:32 AM
Well, the damage model for GVs seems porked - Pz IV 7.5cm underpowered, Osty and .50s overpowered....

Data on the KwK 42 L/70 (the PzKpfw IV's main gun):




































































































































Ballistische Angaben:7,5 cm PzGr 39/427,5 cm PzGr 40/427,5 cm SprGr 42
Munitionsgewicht (Patrone) (kg)14,3011,5511,14
Geschoßgewicht (kg)6,84,755,74
V0  (m/sec)9251.120700
Mündungswucht (mt)297298?
Patronenlänge (mm)893,2875,2929,2
Durchschlagsleistung bei 90° (60°) Auftreffwinkel
(mm):		   
0 m Entfernung167 (133)230 (197)-
450 m Entfernung149 (121)198 (154)-
900 m Entfernung133 (110)170 (123)-
1350 m Entfernung 118 (99)145 (99)-
1850 m Entfernung 104 (89)122 (80)-
2300 m Entfernung 91 (79)103 (65)-




Dang, we need a NORDWIND (like an Osty, but QUAD GUN mwahaha)
Title: My pet peeve: Ground Vehicles.
Post by: Taiaha on July 16, 2002, 07:58:15 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Tumor

The other day CSMC and I were both within 500ft of eachother in Osti's and someone (for some reason I think it was Grimm) made no less than 6 passes at us, both of us blasting away and ..... nothing.  I mean that Mossie was getting as close as 500ft.   Same thing happened to me (and at least 1 other Osti) with a Hellcat and C-47 flying around above a V field they were trying to capture, except the C-47 never got any closer then 1.3d.  

Anyone else?


The couple of times I used an M16 I also had this same experience.  Fired at two 110s coming directly over my pos, distances down to 300, and no hits.  My gunnery aint great, but these were sure things.  I would put it down to lag problems that we're just not seeing?  Or maybe I was just having one of my really off days!

Urchin, the only thing I'd disagree with you about is the fact that an Osty can kill a plane with one hit.  That seems totally realistic to me.  A 37 mm is a very big shell to hit a little plane, and a pilot would have to be very, very lucky for such a hit not to cause catastrophic damage even if the shell wasn't HE.  The kinetic energy alone of that much mass would do terrible damage to an airframe.  But I do wonder if the AP shell of the Osty does have some explosive component modelled within it.  And I guess the other issue here is that I'm always a little skeptical when I hear guys say they were shot down by one hit from an Osty.  How do you judge that?  If it's by the number of pings, well, we know that's no indication of how many rounds are actually hitting.  And if you are taking more than one 37mm round then you are in deep doo doo.

BTW, anyone know what kind of shell the 37mm on the Yak 9-T fires?  It seems to work equally well against buffs and GVs.  Is it psychic?
Title: My pet peeve: Ground Vehicles.
Post by: MoonJuice on July 16, 2002, 08:03:34 AM
I feel Urchin's pain.

But he forgot to mention that the hull gun on the Ostie is extremely ubber also. It sprays a shower of death faster than it's 37mm can.

When it's Ostie vs Ostie, jump to the hull gun.

Rather than perk the Ostie, I think, the killing/destructive power of the  Panzer's AP and HE rounds should be increased.

I have found it takes about 20 to 40 HE rounds to kill a building in a Panzer. I think that should be reduced to 5.

And 1 to 2 AP rounds should take out an Ostie. Right now it takes any where from 5 to 10 - assuming you can kill the Ostie before he gets his 2 to 3 rounds into you.

My opinion is not science, no data charts, not based upon realism...

I'm just making this up for game play.
Title: My pet peeve: Ground Vehicles.
Post by: CavemanJ on July 16, 2002, 08:08:38 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Taiaha

And I guess the other issue here is that I'm always a little skeptical when I hear guys say they were shot down by one hit from an Osty.  How do you judge that?  If it's by the number of pings, well, we know that's no indication of how many rounds are actually hitting.  And if you are taking more than one 37mm round then you are in deep doo doo.


Well, from my ostwind driving experience, I see one hit sprite on a plane I look for another target.  The target is toast.  The except to this are the heavy buffs.  Sometimes a lanc will take 4-5 hits before it disentitgrates.  One ping from an osti is lethal to any of the fighter aircraft in game.

On the flip side of the coin, many many tours ago there was alot of whining about one ping kills.  HT changed the coding so you would hear every hit on your airframe.  Ever get sent back to the tower and continue to hear hits on your (now gone) airframe?  That's what it is.
Title: My pet peeve: Ground Vehicles.
Post by: CavemanJ on July 16, 2002, 08:12:23 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Tumor


I get my Turret killed by single shots from Panzers on a regular basis.  I only manage to do that to other folks occasionally....


Go read my post again Tumor.  I said 75mm HIGH EXPLOSIVE
I generally disable a panzer, either engine or turret, on the first or second shot.  There is the rare exception that will eat 20 AP rounds, then finally find me and kill me with 1 shot.
Title: My pet peeve: Ground Vehicles.
Post by: Nifty on July 16, 2002, 09:03:09 AM
I would give him 2 full bonus points on the whine for working a Star Wars reference in, but he screwed up Padawan, so he only gets a 1.5 bonus.  ;)

Seriously, GVs need an overhaul like the buffs just got.  Let's hope we see this in 1.11 or 1.12.
Title: My pet peeve: Ground Vehicles.
Post by: Mickey1992 on July 16, 2002, 10:18:43 AM
Last night I grabbed an ostie to finish off a town that I had almost destroyed in an A20.  After destroying the remaining buildings, I head over to kill the VH.  I put about 60 ostie rounds into the VH before I get killed.

I then return in about 3 min (nice downhill supersonic run) in a panzer.  I put about 10 HE rounds into VH and it still doesn't go down.  An enemy panzer spawns, I continue to pump rounds into the VH, some of which kill the vehicle inside :D.  15 HE rounds later I am killed, and the VH is still up.

I find that vehicles are useless against hangars now.  I have limited my vehicle use for town porking.
Title: My pet peeve: Ground Vehicles.
Post by: Tumor on July 16, 2002, 10:57:42 AM
Quote
Originally posted by CavemanJ


Go read my post again Tumor.  I said 75mm HIGH EXPLOSIVE
I generally disable a panzer, either engine or turret, on the first or second shot.  There is the rare exception that will eat 20 AP rounds, then finally find me and kill me with 1 shot.


Well thats what I'm getting at about inconsistency.  I use HE all the time and .... my record of killing engines and tracks is better with near misses than outright hits.  Don't think I've ever knocked out a turret with HE.
Title: My pet peeve: Ground Vehicles.
Post by: Moose1 on July 16, 2002, 11:39:35 AM
Quote
2. I've fired 37mm AP rounds from the M8 at M3s and M16s and hit them EVERYWHERE. Cabin, wheels, gun, whatever. No damage. None. 37mm HE round WILL kill an M3 or M16... it just takes more than one hit. It will also friggin ricochet off an M3.

The M8 is, hands-down, either the worst-modelled or most useless but properly modelled (in that case begging the question- WHY the hell is it in the game to begin with?) unit in the game.


I think the one thing I consistently notice with GVs is extreme inconsistency. :)

Seriously...I've put 40-50 hits from the M8 37mm gun into an Ostwind and not killed it.  I took out his turret on the second or third hit, and after that I just kept hitting and hitting and hitting and he didn't die.  He wound up driving around me and stopping fifty yards behind me--with me continuing to blast 37mm AP into his side and track at 50 yards with no effect--until a panzer hit it ONCE with a 75mm...blew it up and got the kill.  50 37mm hits and I got the assist.

The next sortie I hit an Ostwind with three 37mm at 600 yards, flush in the left side, and it blew up.  So I dunno.  And yes, I've nailed an M3 with 6-8 37mm AP hits from an M8, square on the right side of the troop compartment and on the tracks, and done no visible damage.  But I've also blown them up with one AP hit.

I like the M8, I'd love to be able to actually use that 50+ mph speed for something.  But right now it's basically useless except for a little "cool" factor.  Ostys do everything else better, just at 24 mph instead of 50.

So, I tend to agree that the Ostwind's a tad overpowered.  It kind of scares me to think what'd happen if they ever added the Wirbelwind--AW's classic "flakpanzer", similar to the Ostwind but mounting 4 x MG 151/20 cannon and a crapload of ammo.

Does anyone have any historical information as to how useful the 37mm gun we have on the Ostwind might've been in ground combat?  I'd be interested to see if it was really as super-lethal in ground combat as it is in-game.
Title: My pet peeve: Ground Vehicles.
Post by: SKurj on July 16, 2002, 01:53:28 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Tumor


I've noticed that it "seems" to me that when folks have tracers turned off, you don't get explosion sounds OR craters from missed shots 100% of the time...   Further.... I "think" perhaps sometimes for whatever reason, I do not hear "hits" to my machine.  Just speculation, but it just seems way too improbable for someone to make first shot hits at really long range, especially when you get killed on that first shot.



Okey...

You CANNOT turn off tracers in GV's. If you do turnem off, you are the only one that won't see your tracers.  Everyone else will.

HOWEVER... at present there is a bug in the MA..  At present 50% or more of the GV fights I've been in there were no tracers, craters, or sounds from ANY gv's but my own.  Nothing from friendlies sittin 300yrds next to me, or from enemies.  Even when its a fight with 6 or more gv's.

The only shots you hear are the one's that hit you (or you fire)


SKurj
Title: One possible solution to the Ostwind dominance.......
Post by: eddiek on July 16, 2002, 04:11:01 PM
.......at least I think it might work, would be making the Osty ammo loadout either all AP, or all HE, no mixed loads.
I talked at length with a guy this afternoon about German AA fire, he was there in the ETO, down low in the weeds, and he said you could tell the caliber of the German AA fire by the color of the puffs of smoke the shells made when they detonated in midair.
Not sure how HT would code it, but I think since the Ostwind was (from I have read and others have posted) primarily an AA weapon, it should have that feature, just like the 5" guns on the ships.  Fused shells, set to go off at a certain distance, for the AA loadouts, and the AP rounds would require a hit to achieve a kill.
I think giving the Ostwind a mixed loadout was a mistake.  Make the person using an Ostwind select his loadout prior to spawning just like a PNZR or M8 driver has to.  Then, if and when the GV damage model gets straightened out some, the Osty driver will not be able to blaze away with impunity, knowing anything he hits is going to die.  Seeing a PNZR in our sights, knowing all you have is AA style ammo and you are NOT gonna kill the PNZR, would make the game more challenging and therefore more fun IMO.
I'm not sure if it would be feasible or even possible to add the need to set the fuse timing on your shells, but that would be another solution, also.
Title: My pet peeve: Ground Vehicles.
Post by: SKurj on July 16, 2002, 09:26:26 PM
Osty has over 18,000 kills this tour so FAR!!

closest competitor...
Panzer 16,000+
Spit IX 11,000+
p51d 10,000+


SKurj
Title: My pet peeve: Ground Vehicles.
Post by: Hooligan on July 17, 2002, 09:18:21 PM
Ya know Urchin:

I was thinking of a polite response to admonish you over the alarmist and whiney tone of your post.  However my pet peeve is that it should be pretty easy for aircraft to kill the gun crews in open topped GV's (like the Osty).  It seems to me that one good gun pass from any fighter should disable the guns on these things via turning the gun crews to mush.  So instead of admonishing you, why don't I just buy you a drink at the con?

Hooligan
Title: My pet peeve: Ground Vehicles.
Post by: Urchin on July 17, 2002, 11:16:51 PM
I agree 100% with you, the Ostwind should be disabled by just about anything firing into that open top.  

I also agree with you 100% on buying me a beer at the con, since I will be to broke to actually buy any for myself :).
Title: My pet peeve: Ground Vehicles.
Post by: brady on July 18, 2002, 12:04:43 AM
Nothing Personal Urchin, Just a pet peave of mine:)

   People who whine about the osty are a pet peave of mine:)


  Ok I Am A BIg GV fan i spen a lot of time in GV's and a LOT of time in the Osty.

 The ostwind enables GV's to have a viable gaming function in AH, the only thing that makes me work if I am in a plane going after GV's is the osty everything else espichaly the panzer is easy meat.

 If I am in a plane and after an osty, I have to climb, and then O my god this is work indead, drop a freaking bomb on him.

 Or I fly low and six him with a big bore gun, yak 9T or a Hsipano bust to his rear is enough.

 Now having said that, anybody who is doumb enough to fly right at an osty gets what he deservs.

 A short bust of 20mm to the turet is also enough to t/o it's gun. A spirling dive streight down on  him will disable him or kill him ought right. Planes aproaching this way are also very hard to hit.

 The 37mm round on the Osty should kill most all planes with just one hit.

 The Il-2 can shoulder 2 or 3 hist and keep coming, hit it in the tail and it is done for.

 When I am in the osty I miss 95% of the time I am shoting at a plane.

 The osty is popular because it is relatively survivable, it can be used for everything, and this is the way it will be untill HTC does somthing about the piss poor GV armor modeling it has.

 If the Osty is Perked or neutered because some peole cant seam to grasp how easy it is to kill them then we will see far fewer GV's doing anything at all.

 The M8 was one of the weakest and porest preforming Armored cars of the whole war, why we have it is simple. It Did have an AA MG the formidable 50cal! The German Puma a much better AC had no AA gun, imagine a vehical without an AA gun, espichaly those of you who would Perk the osty.

 The M8 as Urchin has said seams not able to kill the M16 and M3 with it's ap rounds. I have spent a considerable amount of time in the M8, I had over 25 kills vulching one night, I killed Panzers and osty's one after another as they spawned with 2 or 3 Ap rounds from a 1/4 rear aspect at about 75 yards.( NHMihat resupled me TY again btw:) ) I howeaver was unable to do anything to M16 or M3's a hit them repeatedly and nothing hapened, finialy I used the 50cal to kill them, appaling, this has been proven to me time and time again. I can damage panzers and ostys from the front but is more amatter of chance than anything else.

 The gun on the M8 btw historicaly a pore preformer, basicaly a pos, inefectave aganst the panzer except on the rear or side at close range. It should go right through the M3 in one end and out the other:)

 
  In closing I would have to say this be carefull what you whine about you might just get it.
Title: My pet peeve: Ground Vehicles.
Post by: Urchin on July 18, 2002, 12:36:12 AM
"If I am in a plane and after an osty, I have to climb, and then O my god this is work indead, drop a freaking bomb on him.

Or I fly low and six him with a big bore gun, yak 9T or a Hsipano bust to his rear is enough.

Now having said that, anybody who is doumb enough to fly right at an osty gets what he deservs. "

Nothing personal... but please give me some of the side firing rockets and bombs you must have, or the last sentence contradicts the first two.
Title: My pet peeve: Ground Vehicles.
Post by: wolf37 on July 18, 2002, 01:37:24 AM
Did anybody know that in WWII, there where only 43 ostwinds made,
Title: My pet peeve: Ground Vehicles.
Post by: Buzzbait on July 18, 2002, 01:49:50 AM
S!

Ostwind's 37mm HE rounds, (and they loaded nothing else) should have zero effect on the front and sides of the Mk IV.  Even in its AT gun form, firing AP shells, the 37mm had less penetrative power than a Hispano 20mm.  In the hollow explosive form, the rounds would be useless.

A 75mm gun firing HE should take down a hanger in 2 or 3 shots.

The 7.92mm or .30 Cal. MG rounds should have minimal effect on a Panzer at all.  Not even tracks are likely to be damaged.  A .50 calibre round has a slightly better chance versus the rear of a Mk IV, but not much of a chance.
Title: My pet peeve: Ground Vehicles.
Post by: Innominate on July 18, 2002, 03:07:16 AM
The m16 is more effective for bringing down fighters that arent flying straight at you.  However, what makes the ostwind so great is that most planes in a base attack have no ordnance to deal with the damn things.  How is it that the open turret on the ostwind can survive multiple strafing runs from ANYTHING??
Title: My pet peeve: Ground Vehicles.
Post by: brady on July 18, 2002, 04:49:07 AM
If you come at the top from the top of an ostwind, i.e. straight down or nearly so( so the crew is exposed) you will get the bset results. My experence in strafing/ being strafied is that the planes that come in less than 45 degrease have little efect, the steaper ones ushaly get my gun. The longer he hits me is also a factor a long steady burst say 1 sec or better will t/o my osty gun.

 Planes atacking an airfield not having bombs? wtf, when would they be carying bombs? More often than not when I am defending an airbase a plane kills me with bombs much more so then when I am atacking one.

  "If I am in a plane and after an osty, I have to climb, and then O my god this is work indead, drop a freaking bomb on him.

Or I fly low and six him with a big bore gun, yak 9T or a Hsipano bust to his rear is enough.

Now having said that, anybody who is doumb enough to fly right at an osty gets what he deservs. "

Nothing personal... but please give me some of the side firing rockets and bombs you must have, or the last sentence contradicts the first two.

 Most of my kills in an osty are aganst people who bore right in, they come from 3k or more out and just come streight at me. they are easy to kill.

 The one's that get me with bombs are generaly heigher than my efective range( praticaly speaking over 2.5k) they heal over and drop. the closer to 90 degrease( streight up) they are the harder it is to hit them, if they role into me from that angle is is almost imposable to hit them. If he has a couple 1K bombs he doesent even nead to get right on target, he will kill me or t/o my gun.

  Rockets, same thing, do not do a direct aproach, come in a orbatial aproach and turn in just long enough to fire the rockets, it just takes a second, set the salvo to two and fire a couple sets off, pull out, extreamly dificult to hit a plane doing this.

 The sentinces are not contradictory, it all in the doing, when atacking an OSTy do Not fly right at it, set up the target, if you are alone bombs are the best aproach.

 If you are in a group wait till he is firing at some else and then bore in a hit him when he is not looking.

 Another aproach and my personal favorate is to sixem.  if you suspect/know ground vehicals are present at a base take off and stay low sucidaly low in fact. fly around behind the spawn point staying low. Come up from behind the spawn point and head for the base. How often do u look behind you when u are in a vehical heading for a target? Whell I think most rarely do. I get good kills this way. As you aproach the base you undoubtdly see GV's come in on the six, low, and fire at like D400 give them 1 or 2 seconds of 20mm, 3 or 4 rounds of 37mm yak 9T ammo and they brew up, pase them low wiggling a bit to throw off their aim and look for more easy pickings.

  I get killed most by Bomb's and wind up ditching most from strafing, strafing does work I lose my gun all the freaking time, if you are experencing never die osty's they may be being resuplied.


 But the beast thing is simply kill them with an panzer.

           
Title: My pet peeve: Ground Vehicles.
Post by: SELECTOR on July 18, 2002, 05:12:14 AM
i think the ostwind has been a hot issue since ive been playing AH..
don't know what the answer is .. but maybe perking the beast to say 60 points (same as the less deadly spit14) would go somewhat to taming the little beasties..:D
Title: My pet peeve: Ground Vehicles.
Post by: brady on July 18, 2002, 05:20:29 AM
Perking it is a seriously bad idea. The impact on GV game play would be appaling.
Title: My pet peeve: Ground Vehicles.
Post by: SirLoin on July 18, 2002, 07:16:08 AM
What the heck...I vote perk the Ostie 5 points.

Wipe eveyone's vehicle points clean and start fresh.

Title: My pet peeve: Ground Vehicles.
Post by: JimBear on July 18, 2002, 08:11:40 AM
Go ahead perk the Ostwind, just give me the Wirblwind to replace it (after all it only has quad 20mm and it was in action in large numbers). You aint heard wailing or whines until that thing would show itself.
Title: My pet peeve: Ground Vehicles.
Post by: brady on July 18, 2002, 03:52:11 PM
How many people are going to scream foul when they die before they get a kill when somewone drops a bomb on them? What this realy boils down to it seams to me is that people are just to lazy to take the time to set them up.

  The moral to the story is, you can't "HO" an osty.
Title: My pet peeve: Ground Vehicles.
Post by: Voss on July 18, 2002, 04:24:36 PM
Just last night I knocked the wing off of a B17. It was 10,000 ft. over our field. One hit from 3.3k distance and his wing falls off. No wonder I get killed so much in my Tiffy! :)
Title: My pet peeve: Ground Vehicles.
Post by: Raubvogel on July 18, 2002, 05:09:25 PM
If they aren't going to properly model the weapons and armor, then the Osty should be a cheap perk....say 5-10 points. Let some of the other vehicles get more use. Just my 2 cents
Title: My pet peeve: Ground Vehicles.
Post by: MrLars on July 18, 2002, 06:07:05 PM
Perk them for remote spawning only....if someone want's to use it as a building buster then let them pay for it...base defence in an Osty should be free IMO.
Title: My pet peeve: Ground Vehicles.
Post by: SKurj on July 18, 2002, 09:38:20 PM
I like MrLars idea +)


SKurj
Title: My pet peeve: Ground Vehicles.
Post by: brady on July 18, 2002, 09:58:57 PM
The offensive use of GV's is one of the funest aspects of GVing, imo, if you take away the osty from that GV's will not beused as often in that role and when they are to litle effect. GV's other than the Osty are redicusly easy to kill, and it is almost imposable to give beter than u get in anything but an osty in terms of GV's.

 The perking of the C hog is not a good comparision to the osty, if the osty is limited nothing will replace it, their is nothing to take it's place, unlike the C hog who's role could would and was filled by a ton of diferent plane types.

 Also the osty is realy representave of a number of different AA platforms on armored chasies, used by a number of diferent countries. The Russians had a similar wepon sys, as did the British, and the US army's not to mention various German Mobile AA guns.

 It realy seams to me that some of you keep geting stung, because you keep making the same mistakes in atacking them.
Title: My pet peeve: Ground Vehicles.
Post by: brady on July 18, 2002, 10:03:51 PM
Ok If I can have a positive K/D aganst the uber osty I am shure that any of you can do the same:

  bradys5 has 48 kills and has been killed 38 times against the Ostwind.


      Granted that  ratio is nothing to be proud of but it does go to prove that it is certainly possable.

 bradys5 has 16 kills and has been killed 10 times in the Hurricane IIC against the Ostwind.

  Thats without bombs mind you.
Title: My pet peeve: Ground Vehicles.
Post by: Turbot on July 18, 2002, 10:11:32 PM
(http://www.achtungpanzer.com/images/stuka_g1.jpg)

nuff said :)
Title: My pet peeve: Ground Vehicles.
Post by: Urchin on July 18, 2002, 10:38:28 PM
I think there are several easy things to do that would 'fix' GVs, in my opinion.  

1.  Perk the Ostwind.  When people 'but there is nothing to replace it', that isn't true.  The M16 is also an AA platform.  Of course, nobody uses it now because it cant kill people in one hit.

2.  Remove the M8 and replace it with something useful, like a rock, or maybe a sheet of paper.

3.  Weaken the M3 and M16 (for unarmored vehicles they are entirely too tough).

4.  Make the Ostwind much easier to disable- that is an OPEN TURRET that gun is sitting in after all... and it wasn't remotely manned either.

5.  Up the damage the Panzer does against buildings with HE rounds, and model one that has something slightly more effective at air defense than a single 7.92mm MG with limited traverse.

6.  If for some reason, perking the Ostwind proves untenable, then lower the damage it does against other vehicles and buildings.  It is supposed to be a mobile AA platform, not a roving destroyer-killer robot.

I'm seriously wondering why the M8 is in the game at all?  What was HT and company thinking?  Were they serious when they put this in?  "Yea, lets put in a GV that every other GV can kill with ease.  Wait.. even better than that, lets make it doesn't have a chance in hell of actually killing any of the other GVs either.  Man, that'll be such a HOOT to drive around in!"

Drive an M8 for a couple days, you'll understand why I am 'whining'.  I saw planes actually break off someones dead 6 to strafe me, because they knew I'm an easier kill than the plane is.  That is truly pathetic.
Title: My pet peeve: Ground Vehicles.
Post by: Toad on July 18, 2002, 11:06:11 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Urchin

5.  Up the damage the Panzer does against buildings with HE rounds, and model one that has something slightly more effective at air defense than a single 7.92mm MG with limited traverse.

 


Can we model some poor dumb schmuck that has to stand with his upper torso above the turret in order to operate the turret flex-mount MG? And model the damage that a hail of heavy MG fire would do to him?

And when the vehicle commander is reduced to a smear of strawberry jello on top of the turret and the gunner takes his place and gets smeared as well... shouldn't the tank have to stop if the driver comes up to man the gun?

Oh, and yeah... can the heavy MG's from other planes and vehicles have more range and overall damage capability than the 7.92's?

As you can see, I'm not a real big fan of the GV's myself. :)

But hey, if some treadhead gets off on it... whatever.

I do think the anti-air capabilities of most of the GV's are a bit... overmodeled... but that's just me. I think they should be maybe easier to kill with bombs and hard to kill with most all airborne guns. OTOH, I think the GV's ability to ping/shoot down aircraft with a single light MG a long range is... questionable at best.

Before you all light the torches and build the gallows, let me say that they don't bother me much. When I'm not in the mood, I just don't play their game. When I'm in the mood, I take bombs and drop from altitude.  Works for me anyway.
Title: My pet peeve: Ground Vehicles.
Post by: Samm on July 18, 2002, 11:14:44 PM
I have to say that I don't like the ostwinds ability to fire endlessly without having to pause and reload.

If you get killed in an airplane or panzer by an ostwind slap yourself for doing something stupid learn from it and move on .

Honestly I have a harder time killing b17s than I do ostwinds . If you let an ostwind get close to your panzer you've made your last mistake . If you are in a plane and you want to kill an ostwind without using rockets or bombs do so with the knowledge that you will problably die .

P38 with 10 rockets and two bombs= Ostwind's nightmare .
Title: My pet peeve: Ground Vehicles.
Post by: brady on July 18, 2002, 11:22:53 PM
Perking the Ostwind is a bad idea, the M16 is entirely to easy to die in and theirfore not a sutible or logical replacement, the root problem is that aircraft can kill every GV in the Game except the ostwind with very little chance of dying in so doing.

 The M3 and M16 are armored vehicals.

 Personaly other a general revamping of the GV armor modeling i think the osty is prety easy to kill disable.
Title: My pet peeve: Ground Vehicles.
Post by: brady on July 18, 2002, 11:26:04 PM
The ostwind does not nead to reload, it has a tray loading system as the rounds are consumed a new batch are simply laid in the tray, it could fire non stop untill it ran out of ammo or died.
Title: My pet peeve: Ground Vehicles.
Post by: Samm on July 18, 2002, 11:28:47 PM
The GV armor model is more complete than the aircraft armor model.
Title: My pet peeve: Ground Vehicles.
Post by: Urchin on July 19, 2002, 12:03:26 AM
The issue shouldn't be that the M16 isn't a 'suitable' replacement for the Ostwind.  A 'suitable' replacement means (I guess) one that can kill planes with little or no skill required, kill GVs with little or no skill required, and be the best at killing.. well, anything.  

Lets look at a related issue.  The F4U-1C was either perked because of overusage (20% of plane kills, I believe the figure was), or rarity in real life (200 produced, and I don't think this was the reason).  The reason people used it was because it was the 'best' plane overall.  It required very little skill to get kills in, it could take off from a carrier, and it could carry a fairly sizable load of ordinance.  

It was better for killing GV's than any other plane, it was better for killing buildings than any other plane, and it was at least the equal of any other plane for killing other planes.  It wasn't the BEST at killing other planes, but it was pretty easy, and that made it attractive in addition to the other reasons.  

The Flakpanzer is the best at killing planes (again, with almost no skill required), the best at killing other GVs (see above note), and the best at killing buildings.  Of COURSE people are going to use it... people being human, they look for the path of least resistance.  

As I see it, there are two options.  One, leave the Ostwind as is, and perk it.  Two, make the other ground vehicles more attractive to use.  This can be done in two ways.  One, make the Ostwind much less effective against buildings and armored GVs.  Or, Two, improve the other ground vehicles.  For instance, right now the Ostwind is the best at killing ground vehicles, with the Panzer a very distant second.  This could be resolved by making the Panzer do more damage do other ground vehicles.  The Ostwind is also the best at killing buildings.  This could be resolved by making the Panzer do much more damage to buildings.  

I also think the Panzer's damage model needs to be looked at, as it has been shown that the Panzer really was NOT all that vulnerable to machine-gun and small calibre cannon fire.  I don't feel like finding the posts where this was discussed, suffice it to say that it has been.  

If the Panzer was made more attractive to use in an offensive role, we may see the pattern of a base attack consisting of 10 Ostwinds and 1 M3 change.  

Until then, the Panzer will remain fairly useless, and the only vehicle that may as well be in the game is the Ostwind.
Title: Technique is the answer
Post by: Voss on July 19, 2002, 12:30:03 AM
I have 84 kills of Ostwind, and 26 deaths by Ostwind.

Panzer 62:6
Typhoon 9:16 (OUCH!)
Ship Gunner 6:0 (their sitting ducks)
M3 0:2 (go figure)
Ostwind 4:1
M8 0:1 (useless)

In the Panzer I fire HE while standing off from the Ostwind. If you get close enough to the vehicle with an HE round, his track will be disabled and AP can finish him.
Title: My pet peeve: Ground Vehicles.
Post by: Samm on July 19, 2002, 12:42:54 AM
The f4u1c is the best at killing GV's ? I guess if you're an idiot that doesn't know how to use bombs and rockets and don't mind dieing straffing AA platforms . It's not even the best f4u for killing dirt targets .

The ostwind is the best at killing other GV's ? What game are you playing ? Here the panzer is still king, if it can see you it can kill you.  The m8's gun has longer range, and it is much faster, The LVT with 75mm also has longer range .

The ostwind is the best at killing buildings. I agree with you here, but it has to get through ack first . And of course for you to be able to kill any buildings the enemy has to let you get to their town/base/factory first .
Title: My pet peeve: Ground Vehicles.
Post by: brady on July 19, 2002, 04:32:50 AM
I would hesitate to say the ostwind takes no skill to hit with, I miss a whole heck of a lot before I get a hit and the planes I kill more often than do somting stupid befoe I get them.

 And realy if you think about it the osty is firing 250 rounds to kill a hanger, thats a lot of ammo almost 25% of it's load, it takes time to do this, time some watchfull Jabo can paste u in.

 I shuder to think what 250 37mm osty rounds would do to a ALbertsons if I went postal and unloaded on the front of the store one day....:)

 Lets say you hit a panzer like 20 times in the side with all that HE, it would reake havoc on the tank, even hiting the front repedadly could damage the gun.

 Urchin man the point is this take the osty away and will have unchecked killing of helpless GV's. Perking even at low levals has a drastic impact on unit usage, it would have a catastofic impact on gameplay, unles your intent is to remove something is presenting a chalenge to you, Man you are one of the Best fighter piolets I have ever sean, you can get the kill the osty thing down:)

 The C hog is a nocomparable issue, the issue at hand is the impact on gameplay removing the osty will have.

 Making the 75 mm HE rounds on the Panzer more efective is a good Idea, but I think the root of the problem i how HTC asigns a weight value to the millimeter equivelency of the rounds in the game.
 
 Case in point, Heinkel told me he tested that it took 250 30mm MK 108 rounds to kill a hanger, It takes around 250 37mm rounds to kill a Hanger, that 37mm Ost round is consederably bigger.

 The base problem is that Panzer cant fire it larger rounds out fast enough.

 So I sugest you learn to Kill the Osty, I can, Voss can certainly Kill the osty we should maybe think of Perking him, he seams a bit UBER:)
Title: My pet peeve: Ground Vehicles.
Post by: Pooh21 on July 19, 2002, 04:43:27 AM
Yep Brady is right tray loading never run outta ammo. The rounds comes striaght from the replicator( is that a star trek trademark?)
and on to the tray as long as replicator has power you got ostie bullets. I had one spray from 2.5 disable my tank, and keep spraying for 5+ minutes!!!! nonstop!
Title: My pet peeve: Ground Vehicles.
Post by: SKurj on July 19, 2002, 01:33:17 PM
Samm... NO gv in AH has to get through any acks.  They can all kill acks from a range at which they do not shoot back (exception being manned ack)

Even the lowly M3 can kill ack from outside the acks range


SKurj
Title: My pet peeve: Ground Vehicles.
Post by: lazs2 on July 19, 2002, 02:35:03 PM
I tthink urchin has got it.  I agree with everything in his post.   I especially agree that an osty is OPEN TOPPED... even a few fifty cal rounds wizzing throug the side armor or in thru the top would make hamburger of the gunner and crew..   A 20mm round exploding in the open turrent... a bunch of 303's or ought sixes rattling around in there.... sheesh...

Same with panzers... if the guy is half way out of the turrent facing down 6 50 cal's with his pissant 7.62....he should die easily... once he dies.... the tank should be more or less blind and incomunicado.

m16's are trucks.. they should be as easily killed as trucks.

spawn points..... why can't we kill the spawn point?   we can make airfields useless to fighters why not spawn points useless to GV's or pt's?
lazs
Title: My pet peeve: Ground Vehicles.
Post by: Samm on July 19, 2002, 03:14:50 PM
Quote
Originally posted by SKurj
Samm... NO gv in AH has to get through any acks.  They can all kill acks from a range at which they do not shoot back (exception being manned ack)

Even the lowly M3 can kill ack from outside the acks range


SKurj

Yeah that was my point, the gun on the ostwind has the same range as the 37mm field flak, so it has to get in ack range to kill it. The Panzer, LVT and m8 don't have to get that close . The only ack that the m2 on an m3 has range on is 20mm .

And lazs you can kill gv's spawn points, by killing the vh, which is much easier than killing FH's at a field .
Title: My pet peeve: Ground Vehicles.
Post by: SKurj on July 19, 2002, 06:54:18 PM
No it doesn't Samm.. well unless a player is manning the ack, which he can't at a town...
errm hmm is there 37mm AI ack? or are those just the player acks?

the AI ack range against GV's is at most 1/2 the range it uses vs air targets.

If you are just referring to manned ack nm +)


SKurj