Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Curval on July 16, 2002, 02:46:37 PM
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Any pilot who doesn't go for the head-on shot when he is in a bad situation. There are a few of them...I think.
have a nice day
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The guns face forward. If an enemy plane gets into my gunsights, I fire. I try to avoid HO shots, not because I have some moral problem with them, but because it's very risky. I will shoot if I can though, better a bad shot and he dies than allow him to live and wait for him to get on my 6.
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Pilots I admire are ones that don't go for the HO on me when I've got 3+ cons on my 6. The ones that do go for the head-on are going down with me. :)
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Hmmmm fly a jug long enough and you'll have a whole new appreciation for the fine art of head on shooting......Let me see I can pop this spit dweeb right between the eyes or make two turns with him and then die....hmmmmmm......BETWEEN THE EYES IT IS!!!!! RATTATATATATATATATA!!!!!
Avid - The HO DWEEB!!!!
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Who says you have to turn with 'em? Just extend and engage at your pleasure. :)
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Hmmm... extend, re-engage... oh look! Another head on opportunity... ratatatatat!
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I mostly fly Mosquitoes. You bet I'll take the HO. Its that or let him kill me in the case of way too many aircraft.
On the other hand I never take an HO in a Spit or A6M if I can possibly help it.
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"well dammit, his head was TOO me!"
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I'm in my p47d-25 and you in your la7 at 7K... sorry guy! I ll make a HO. I don't know why a lot ot la7 pilots make HOs with me in my poor p47 at 7K :)
Cya.
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For me, dogfighting is a means to an end.
I'm typically working with a group trying to take a field or suppress a factory or whatever. I'm not going to be sporting about it. I'm going to attempt to knock you out of the sky as quick as possible and continue supporting the mission at hand. If that means a shot in the face, so be it.
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So you admire the guy that will let you lead turn on him and kill him from behind, risk-free? I would too, damn nice of the guy...
So what is wrong with thinning the odds in an HO if you are outnumbered and swarmed? Just how do you think the fellow is going to have the luxury to lag pursue you with a couple of fellows taking passes at him? I think you expect too much from your opponents.
I'll HO you everytime in that situation if you put yourself in front of my guns. I sure won't refrain from pulling the trigger when there's a fair chance you won't AND I'm outnumbered...
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(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Skyrats/files/topgun30.jpg)
I may not be honourable but cross my guns and I fire...As Top Gun tells us all
Take the shot or goose dies...simple
Tronsky
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I have never understood this gripe. I've fallen prey to my fair share of HOs in the couple months that I've been here, but I always keep one thing in mind. It takes TWO PLANES to create a HO situation. Sure, maybe one guy is pushing the issue more than the other, but it's a legitimate, albeit mostly unrealistic, tactic.
You're being chased by a couple bandits and suddenly someone comes at you head on, playing chicken with you? Imagine that! What better way to get you to turn before you're ready, thus allowing his countrymen to get a better shot at you.
Someone comes at you HO you've got two choices, take him (or her) out or avoid. If you do neither thn it's your own dang fault.
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IMO, if you turn to shoot, or come to a guns solution and your opponent turns HO, AND you either follow through the HO, or do not have a solution yourself... well, then you're as guilty as he is.
I also don't think he's guilty of anything. There's nothing wrong with facing an opponents gunfire. After all, you don't bring a knife to a gunfight.
There's a persistent, historical precedence for it, as well. So, in my mind the guy that complains the loudest has fewer solutions.
HO as you see fit.
:cool:
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I gotta say I admire some of the brash pilots who not only (1) attack superior numbers but (2) rack up some kills and then (3) survive. That's total competence, and it's not as impressive unless you achieve all three points.
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LOL. Try having no respect for anyone, it makes it easier to kill them dead!!!!!!! After that, you will sleep like a baby while the tears are streaming down their sad sad faces!
Even guys that are with Liz Hurley HOE now and then (and get caught)!!!
Cheers
Rat
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I think anyone that passes on taking a LOW angle nose shot because he's afraid of ridicule is an idiot and needs professional emotional help. As far as the pure HO, anyone that goes out of their way for that and has an aircraft with lower muzzle power then the other aircraft he/she is trying to HO is an idiot also.
I see a plane in front of me nose to nose trying to avoid the HO I go ahead and attempt the shot because I know he is putting himself in jeopardy by giving the low angle shot to me, but if the other person is not making much effort to avoid a possible HO by me, I make damn sure I have enough E to roll out the the way, if I don't have the E to avoid the shot I try to fire earlier and more than the attacker.
as far as the ganged situation ..common sense should lend you to realise that you must take some HO shots to cut the odds down.
As far as HO whinners.....they give me a bigger laugh than the chute whinners.
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pilots I admire, a guy the who shoots you down 1v1 in a p-51 and then askes if he can come back for 1v1 co alt / same plane in the MA because he feels you put up a good fight :)
All nice and courteous, it was fun to fly against someone of similar ability, calling out to country mates not to help.
flying KI-61's, No HO's on merge then anything goes.
Final score, be rude to say, it wasn't about winning.
The ground won most of the bouts, manouver kills, the fighting was deadlocked, back and forth the advantage passed.
Acidfunk wtg, pilots like you make the game fun :D :D :D
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Chennault made the HO a primary tactic (avoid the tailchase and GO for the HO.) The USA pilots in the Pacific made the HO a valid tactic. Chuck Yeager got shot down going for a HO.
Why do so many have a distaste for an historically authentic and valid tactic?
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Take the HO, rev, and strafe the chute :)
Seriously, while I like to make a big effort to turn HO passes into mere "front quarter" shots out of pure self-preservation, if I don't see the other guy maneuvering to avoid the HO I simply refuse to give him a free shot at me.
If that ends up in an HO, too bad, sometimes (virtual) life sucks.
If the weeb that HO'd me whines about me shooting him in the face as he came at me guns blazing, I'll rev and tag his chute too.
That said, this usually only happens when a guy in a more maneuverable plane attacks me with an altitude advantage and I don't have an option due to energy levels, his maneuvering, or presence of other bandits. I strongly advocate higher-percentage shots especially since my gunnery isn't very good so I tend to lose HO's, but if it's a choice between the HO or letting the other guy shoot me, I'll be shooting back.
If I have the altitude, I'll circle over the other bugger until I have a good shot or an opportunity to disengage. Hell, it's just a game and except in the very rare scenarios I participate in, I don't HAVE to shoot at everyone I run across if the setup doesn't work out...
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Originally posted by Curval
Any pilot who doesn't go for the head-on shot when he is in a bad situation. There are a few of them...I think.
have a nice day
I admire them too. Well.. not so much admire as just gape in awe.
It's rare that people that stupid live long enough to make extra money and have the free time to play a great game like this!
:D
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Im taking it from reading from a former A.V.G. pilot, if you have a more superior HO plane, you take it. Im sure it applied to all planes of that era. If im in a p38, you can bet im going to HO every time.
A.V.G. Tactics- Erik Shilling
"To show a couple examples of attacking enemy fighters: If you attack head on, which the enemy was reluctant because our guns outranged the fighters, they would normally pull up. (If he started turning away, he would already be at a disadvantage.) You started firing at Max range, and then dive away, under these conditions we didn't turn and tangle with a Jap fighters..."
http://www.danford.net/shilling.htm
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I admire Grunherz.
:eek:
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Ok well i guess you dont admire me! i love to see who has the balls to get as close and shoot the longest before you hit or or dispirse. It keeps you alert couse you on the edge of your seat! Then boooooooooooom:eek: and yall hit and go down in peaces! Then you laugh your bellybutton off! Its so fun why not do it. Its like chickin whoes gonna sawerve! NOT ME IAM RUNNING STRIGHT THOUGH SO WATCH IT I WILL HIT YOU IF YOU IN MY WAY!
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If in 110G-2, then it is HO against anyone co-E. You'd be surprised how they go for it too.
If in 190A-8 vs La-7 on the deck, HO again. And again, I just didn't believe those two Lame-7s.
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Well it takes 2 to head on. If you don't like to HO then the option is simple for you. DON'T AIM YOUR PLANE AT ME!! Besides, all my guns point forwards not backwards. :D
~AcidFunk~
"Puff, puff, give!!"
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The best part about taking an HO when you can is getting a response like the following. Basically, the situation boiled down to this: I was in an FM-2, this guy was in an A6M2. He tried to get around to hit me, but I kept reversing and getting a ping or two on him. He finally realized that it would be better to extend and come back around trying to get a better shot on me. Well, he tried it once too often. I took front quarter shot as he passed and took his wing off. Game over. He made a very simple mistake. He didn't even try to shoot at me when his nose was pointed at me. I had a shot and took it. He had a shot and didn't. His problem, not mine.
I covered his name b/c I don't really care to get him into any trouble. I just think a reaction like this is absolutely classic. I also left in the little bit by Rauml just b/c I thought it was funny.
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i REALLY admire the pilots kind enough to let me shoot them down.... ;D
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It was my first official whine....:D
I guess I just need to get better at HOs myself then, judging by the responses here. Fine...will do.
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....and the correct answer is...:
I admire them too. Well.. not so much admire as just gape in awe.
It's rare that people that stupid live long enough to make extra money and have the free time to play a great game like this!
A classic. :D
Also, note that most guys that get annoyed at catchin a faceful of lead came from that old whine haven sim where they squeaked and moaned about it till they turned damage recieved in the front quarter off.
Pretty gay, IMHO.
But then.. so's Kurt Tank.
;)
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i hate people in gv who ditch couse they know there diddlyed when that happens to me i tell the person finish me off! iam tired off looking at my smoking self!:(
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I've got a solution to dealing with HO dweebs. More often than not their left wing comes off. Bad fasteners, I suspect.
I generally don't go for the HO, but if someone wants to play chicken the best answer is to get good at it, not to gripe about it.
My latest ride (the F4U) isn't quite as good at it as my trusty P38, but it works nicely just the same.
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Originally posted by Puck
I generally don't go for the HO, but if someone wants to play chicken the best answer is to get good at it, not to gripe about it.
Yup, I agree...I will get good at it.
Now if we could all let this thread die, I would appreciate it...I feel all "icky".
Clearly I have been STUPID up to now. Despite the fact that I have managed to live 37 years, garner not only a high school diploma but also a University degree and two professional designations if Toad thinks I am stupid for not taking an HO shot and instead prefer to have a good fun fight it must be true. Hangtime also appears to think I am gay. All for giving my opinion on pilots that I admire...
Wait...is this WW2Online BBS or AH?
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Originally posted by Curval
Clearly I have been STUPID up to now. Despite the fact that I have managed to live 37 years, garner not only a high school diploma but also a University degree and two professional designations
See, THAT is where you went wrong. I'm 40 and STILL paying for all those years of engineering school, and I sure don't feel any smarter than I was when I got out of the Navy at 24.
For that matter, at 16 I knew everything. I know less and less the older I get. By the time you're my age you won't even shoot at someone after you've saddled up on their six.
I've never been in that situation, so I'm not sure what I'd do. :D
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There is no chivalry in air combat - never was - That's a holly Wood myth.
The key element which made WWI and WWII Aces was that they always fought with an advanged and they always fought to win.
The goal is to kill the other guy, doesn't matter how you do it.
A HO is a legitemate tactic.
Whine and cry all you want....
if you die from a head shot, it's your own fault for getting your self into that situation.
Head shots are easy to avoid, barrel roll, or lead turn - it is as simple as that.
Whiners are loosers.
Whining about it and wanting everyone else to change their tactics, just let's everyone else know you can't handle it - you dont' have want it takes to win in Air Combat.
You are a looser and will always loose because you refuse to accept this as a tactic and refuse to learn how to overcome it to defeat those who use it.
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:D
I've had it so engrained in my head from AW2 and AW3, that ho'ing was taboo (even tho the possiblity of a hit was minimal), that I find it very difficult to HO, even if the situation (1 vs 2+) warrents it.
So, what I do is merge with the idea that the person is gonna ho. If he doesn't then I don't. If he does, I avoid the HO, then smoke him on the next pass. Then I laugh when he complains about being Ho'ed.
The only plane I will HO right off the bat are those bloody buff formations :D Much easier to kill the pilot than the buff.
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Originally posted by MoonJuice
You are a looser and will always loose because you refuse to accept this as a tactic and refuse to learn how to overcome it to defeat those who use it.
LOL...
When did I ever say I refuse to accept this....on the contary I have totally accepted it IN THIS THREAD. I have stated that I will practice and get good at it.
(in a bad French accent) Now go away..you silly thing.
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Originally posted by Curval
Toad thinks I am stupid for not taking an HO shot and instead prefer to have a good fun fight it must be true
Don't take it the wrong way Curval.
I attempted to highlight the part of your initial post that I found curious but, since I was really tired, I forgot that the entire post would be in bold anyway. I should have done it like this:
"Any pilot who doesn't go for the head-on shot when he is in a bad situation.[/i] There are a few of them...I think.
Let me explain my views on HO.. and I'll try to be brief. :)
History is chock full of anecdotal pilot commentary on deliberately taking the HO. I myself have talked with NUMEROUS WW2 US pilots that deliberately went for the HO, most recently a P-47 guy that twice deliberately engaged FW-190's HO in defense of "his" bomber stream. (He got some non-fatal strikes but his aircraft wasn't damaged.) So the idea that it is somehow not "right" to HO doesn't fly with me.
As far as the "honor" of taking the HO in a game like AH.... Pfffft. It isn't "honor" that's the issue, it's skill. If a pilot has the advantage and goes for the HO, it isn't dishonorable, it's just plain stupid. :) He should use the advantage to kill you without risk to himself, or at least less risk to himself.
Now, if a pilot is on the other side of the fence and HE is in a truly disadvantaged position, he'd again be stupid if he didn't take his "best shot" at equalizing the situation at the earliest possible moment in the engagement. In this case, a HO shot may (or may not) be the best chance of surviving the engagement either by victory or simply by getting away.
In short, the HO is just another tactic. Just like the rope-a-dope, the hi yo-yo, the displacement roll or the rolling scissors. And just like these "politically correct" forms or air combat, there is in fact a time and a place to use the HO.
Using the HO when you don't need to do so isn't too smart IMO.
NOT using the HO when you need to also isn't too smart... again IMO.
OK.. that was brief, wasn't it? ;)
I rarely ever need to use the HO when I'm anywhere close to corner speed. If someone tries to HO me when I've got good maneuveing speed, it usually results in a half-turn fight where I'm quickly on his six and he's quickly flaming. Seems that the incidence of this has increased recently and I look at them as easy, almost undeserved kills. But, a kill's a kill.
OTOH, when I get bounced aggressively when I'm in a very low E state my options for survival are limited. You can bet I'll try to get a low angle front quarter shot or even a true HO if I can get the nose around and on target. I find using no tracer and opening up early to let the attacker fly into the invisible bullet stream will often save my sorry butt. It also gives me time to hose off some rounds and still have time to possibly evade his return fire (which really depends on E and how quickly I can get back out-of-plane.
So, don't take this as "Toad thinks Curval is stupid despite Curval's college degrees."
It was more in jest as a quick riposte.
This HO thing has been beaten like a dead horse for 3 years now and I tend to skip the lengthy replies that I cheerfully wrote up back then.
I'd have skipped this one too but I certainly didn't mean to truly offend and I hope this lengthy explanation will make more sense than my "quip".
Yer an OK chap in my book Curval. (Even if HO's still bother you. ;) )
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Originally posted by Toad
I attempted to highlight the part of your initial post that I found curious but, since I was really tired, I forgot that the entire post would be in bold anyway. I should have done it like this:
"Any pilot who doesn't go for the head-on shot when he is in a bad situation.[/i] There are a few of them...I think.
Using the HO when you don't need to do so isn't too smart IMO.
NOT using the HO when you need to also isn't too smart... again IMO.
I cannot argue with this logic...thanks for the clarification. You are right obviously...I was just frustrated because two nights ago I had fought two cons for about ten minutes and as soon as the advantage swung in my favour one of them reversed and HO'd me. It was a good fight right up until then.
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Fire a burst at 1.0 just over the guy's head and barrell-roll. I don't use tracers so every now and then the guy will inadvertantly fly into the bullet cloud. You won't take him down, but you might take out an engine.
Technically, you went defensive while he engaged in full sight of your guns, so if he gets drilled, its his fault!
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I only take the head on if the way is in front of me.
And I will only shoot his chute if he bails out.
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my sista's a HO, she looks nuthin like Toad.
On a slightly diffrent note, there are no 'HO Dweebs'. There's only dweebs that have been HO'ed.
It was a good fight right up until then.
LOL Curval! Yer with the program right up to there.
It was still a good fight.. from the other guys perspective.
:D
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Originally posted by Hangtime
It was still a good fight.. from the other guys perspective.
:D
:D Can't argue with that either:D
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Originally posted by Modas
:D
I've had it so engrained in my head from AW2 and AW3, that ho'ing was taboo (even tho the possiblity of a hit was minimal), that I find it very difficult to HO, even if the situation (1 vs 2+) warrents it.
So, what I do is merge with the idea that the person is gonna ho. If he doesn't then I don't. If he does, I avoid the HO, then smoke him on the next pass. Then I laugh when he complains about being Ho'ed.
The only plane I will HO right off the bat are those bloody buff formations :D Much easier to kill the pilot than the buff.
Sorry...missed this earlier.
I dig where you are coming from man...:cool: This is a philosopy I can equate with.
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'Course Toad has once again upstaged me with a fuller explanation of what I was saying in the first place... ;)
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if the enemy has his sights on you its kill or be killed....thats just the simple truth.....I'm not going to turn at the last second, because if he squeezed that little trigger on his joystick- its a second too late for me.
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S you all think HOs are bad? Try to fly C.202 then! EVERYONE is going for HO with you because they know that they dont have to worry about you killing them... Every single plane I met yesterday turned to me HO lol... Except for C47s.... They just kept trying to ram me.... :D
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I'll take head ons, shoot rockets, fly upside down, drop bombs on planes on the runway whatever the hell it takes to kill the other guy. Happiness is an enemy at a deacked field about 10 feet off the ground and close to stall... with his gear down. Or a Spit at 1.2 flying straight at my 110g2. :)
The quicker I can kill someone the better and the head on offers the least amount of effort. I dont even have to alter my course :)
Vulching is the same thought process, ACM when done right puts the enemy at a disadvantage. Low and slow. Why go through all that work when the guy taking off is already in that state.
It's not that I lack morals, Im just lazy.